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While purging the deceased from the voter rolls is part of our secular political faith, I know of one county in the south where county law (until recently) specifically forbid removing dead voters from the voter rolls. Back in the day, every other church in the county was a spiritualist congregation of one sort or another. Though attendance at Sunday evening communion with the dead declines every year, dead folk were still allowed to vote providing the signature on the ballot, as recorded by the poll work taking down the vote, matched the one on file. Invariably, the signature was (pun intended) dead on.

Ten years back there was a big hullabaloo when Jedidiah Stubbins (folks knew him as "Stub" when he worked the farm outside of town with the broken down windmill) ran for town council. The argument against him was that as old Stub doesn't pay taxes anymore, he has no business in how the town spends for maintenance and civic improvements. Earl Wiley, who had a small law office over by the liquor store, before he passed on from lung cancer a few years before Stub, argued that Stub had every right to serve on council, as he prepaid his taxes when the family farm was passed down to his daughter Victoria and her husband Ben. Ben didn't know the front end of a hog from the backside, so they sold the old place and moved on to the state capitol, where Ben works in the paint department at a Home Depot. Stub has served on the town council for nearly a decade now, and has run unopposed ever since.

Years ago, half the town were black folk, and every now and then some redneck raises Cain when "dead n!gg*rs" show up to vote. "If they had no right to vote while alive, they sure as hell don't have the right now" he opines. Always, some dead white man comes up with a story, like the time his tractor broke down while bringing in the hay, and his black neighbors came over with a team of horses and a wagon and helped him bring in the hay before the rain. Folks love that story, especially the dead folk.

This year, pressure from the governor and the state legislature has forced the county to conform with state law, disenfranchising the dead and nullifying their right to vote. "It just ain't fair" said Stub, but I guess it's time that we were moving on.

Can't even believe my eyes. Sorry, but Trump is a heartless goon that continues to add to the suffering of the American people, and conspiracy theory nonsense can't undo the reality of who he is. Unconscionable that many of you here support his bigotry, callousness, divisiveness, and lies. I've truly enjoyed this blog, but it's adios for now.

Goodbye, Jean. Thanks for all the fish.

In our considerations of post mortem survival, we rely on a body of “alternative facts” that is not recognized as valid and meaningful by the consensus of the scientific community. This used to bother me, but I now think it’s inevitable and necessary that different communities regard certain evidence as important and vital, while other knowledge sects dismiss those facts as meaningless, invalid, or illusory. Each knowledge sect acts as a filter, which weighs some facts more heavily than others.

For instance, because we find the evidence for post mortem survival compelling, fact claims which, if true, render it impossible (such as those suggesting that the brain is the engine of consciousness), are given less weight than they would in the neurological community of thought, and visa versa. We don't dismiss such claims out of hand, but view them with more skepticism than might be found amongst fans of mainstream scientific belief.

The red/blue divide within the comments here demonstrates these filters at work. My personal bias gives more credence to news conveyed via corporate media outlets (what dear leader often calls "fake news") over claims and "evidence" on social media. For instance, Michael seems to regard the video showing the alleged wrongdoing by Ruby Freeman and co-conspirators, as valid proof of election fraud committed in plain view of a public video feed. My first instinct is not to go straight to video, but to see what either local or national news outlets have reported on what is, if true, an important story. As of the morning of Dec. 8, crickets. Plenty of YouTube links, and breathless blogger commentary, but zippo from reliable news organizations (i.e. ones with reporters on the ground, in Georgia, examining the facts). Corporate media coverup on both the right and left? Really?

It's impossible to rationally discuss the relevance of evidence without some commonly agreed upon method of separating bullshit from fact claims that have valid truth value. To use an expression that rationalist skeptics love to employ, some claims of fact are "not even wrong". With respect to legal claims, red and blue both agree that we have a system for sorting out the legal facts from the bullshit. Do murderers sometimes go free? Are innocent men wrongly executed or sentenced to life? Too often. The system isn't perfect, but as the saying goes "Perfection is the enemy of good." And, maybe our justice system isn't even good, but it is what we have. Imperfect as the system is, the court of public opinion is much, much worse. Give me twelve jurors over mob rule any day.

With ELECTION FRAUD 2020!!! moving out of the courts and state legislatures, the final Hail Mary appears to be an effort by the president to convince or coerce state officials to disregard the results of the certified election. Call me a heretic and an unbeliever, but I'm not convinced that Donald Trump is on a divine mission to work the will of God. Nor do I believe that he is a remotely selfless instrument of pure patriotism wholly dedicated to the truth and the welfare of the nation. Just as half the country believes Donald was robbed, the other half believes that he is the one trying to subvert the will of the people.

Here is the National Review on the "suitcase video":

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/about-the-suitcase-video/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=third

Trump was a billionaire on TV who bankrupted casinos and screwed over countless people so that only he gets the benefits while the rest suffer at his feet. He's morally unacceptable no matter what good policies he may have (the US booted out Nixon despite his policies on environment, China, and ending the Vietnam War because he was held to a high standard of what a president should be i.e. not a crook).

And then COVID-19 came, and Trump screwed it up. In fact, it was because of his mishandling of COVID-19 throughout the year that politics became an everyday talk with my family and friends, who don't want to get too much into politics. Whether they were leaning conservatives or liberals, the consensus was that Trump was the reason why this pandemic won't end. He offered no leadership in this crisis, not even George W. Bush's resolve to remain strong after 9/11. This, combined with his immoral and immature behavior, was the final straw for my conservative leaning mother. My father, who thought that Trump's deregulation policies were good, despised Trump's refusal to implement basic safety policies during COVID-19 because he wanted our family to be safe.

Unlike impeachment, investigations, slander, and libel, this virus will not go away via a tweet, a bribe, or just pretending it doesn't exist. It will persist as long as people are too stubborn to admit it's a problem they can't easily overcome, like a Biblical plague in the Exodus.

And ultimately, that was what cost Trump the election. The irony is that this crisis would have ensured his reelection had he taken the virus seriously. Had he been preemptive about it by restricting travels between US and China early on and quarantined the remaining travelers for possible virus infection. A success like that would have secured a second term, like George W. Bush did in the post-9/11 world.

Sadly, I had this gut feeling that Trump would ignore the virus because it would temporarily cause the stock market to go down (as he thinks that's the only indication of economy). And his short-term thinking would somehow would cause what is supposed to be a pandemic in just the spring and winter (with summer being the free time) into a full-year pandemic.

I made it clear that I've hated Trump for a lot of things in the past four years, but this is the first time where I honestly feel sad about the whole situation because now nobody can just ignore it and pretend it's not there. Businesses, people and just daily life, we cannot ignore it. And every time I longed to see a movie in the theaters, I am forced to remember why the theaters are close and who allowed it to go this far.

This is why Trump lost. I may not be a big fan of Biden but I hated Trump a lot more after this pandemic, and many of us from across the country wanted him out for sheer incompetence. It's not new, btw, as the nation did the same thing when Herbert Hoover did very little to alleviate the people's anxieties during the Great Depression.

Matt, that NR post is days out of date and based entirely on the Lead Stories debunking effort, which has fallen apart:

https://thefederalist.com/2020/12/07/no-the-georgia-vote-counting-video-was-not-debunked-not-even-close/

Among other things, LS claimed the media were never told that counting had stopped for the night, but ABC, NBC, The Week, and others all reported being told at the time. I remember hearing about it myself. It raised eyebrows on Election Night.

It is true that the containers were not suitcases, but all the other debunking claims made by LS and parroted by NR are probably wrong.

Not to mention that closer examination of the surveillance videos shows Ruby Freeman apparently feeding the same stack of ballots into a machine three times in a row. And an earlier video shows Ruby participating in what appears to be the surreptitious disposal of an inconvenient USB drive.

Matt,
Just one obvious problem with the debunking is that counting went on without the legally required observers present. If there wasn't wrong doing occurring, then the remaining counters would have called the observers back into the room prior to proceeding.

Assassin, you can't watch a movie because your state government won't let you. Unless you're 80 years old and/or very sick from underlying conditions, then the covid virus won't hurt you. That is the fact of the matter. Even the very political CDC agrees.

I do not see what Trump was supposed to do about an inconsequential virus that was being hyped by the media and democrats? Are all of the European leaders equally as terrible to you? Because they are having basically the same experience. Have you heard of another contagion called "TDS"? Pretty sure you have contracted it.

JoNova runs an Australian blog that has focused on criticizing the U.S. election results, with over 35 threads so far. There are many interesting links and quotes, at https://joannenova.com.au/2020/12/18-us-states-file-against-4-corrupt-states-that-failed-to-hold-fair-elections/#comment-2387047 (the latest thread).

“ Unless you're 80 years old and/or very sick from underlying conditions, then the covid virus won't hurt you. That is the fact of the matter. Even the very political CDC agrees.”

That’s a strange claim given that the US is in fact observing an excess in deaths for all age groups (except the 0-25 age group) that can’t be attributed to chance. Maybe the majority had underlying conditions, but that dosen’t mean they were terminally ill.

Your claim about Europe is also factual wrong. Some european countries with traditionel weak goverments are doing very badly like Italy while well-governed Germany is doing a lot better.

The Supreme Court has spoken. Looks like it's game over for Trump, guys, unless he does that martial law thing certain people here are in favor of... Something tells me that that wouldn't go in such a positive direction for him if he tried it.

No one can watch movies in theaters because our family has a senior member living in the household. Do not think this is just some restriction from the state government. We cannot go to the theaters even before the restrictions because my father kept track of news and realized this was serious illness. No theater was worth losing a life over.

And for the record, Trump didn't try. He called it a hoax and never led by example. He admitted, in his own words in an interview to Bob Woodward:

"You just breathe the air and that's how it's passed. And so that's a very tricky one. That's a very delicate one. It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus... To be honest with you, I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don't want to create a panic."

He knew the virus was spreading through the air and it was more deadly than the strenuous flu, he knowingly lied to the public and caused the death of thousands as a consequence for that.

This is what I mean by he didn't even lead by Bush's example. Sympathy, understanding, and resolve. Those are the things that allowed Bush to secure the second term. Trump never did those things. I see Joe Biden empathizing with the people. I see Trump whining about victimhood while people are dying.

If you think this is TDS, then I'm afraid that the majority of the American has been suffered through that because Trump keeps spreading it every day, giving us no reason to even think of him as decent. Any time where we could pity him is repaid with him spewing out another angry and arrogant tweet of how he's the winner. Because he refused to have empathy or learn his lesson, the will of the people have spoken.

They chose Biden over Trump because Trump cannot lead; the conservative Supreme Court, three of whom who were handpicked by Trump, have struck down his lawsuit today; Bill Barr, the loyal Trump AG, said there was no fraud in the elections. Either everyone is against Trump, including his own people, or he just lost fair and square and it is what is.

"The Supreme Court has spoken. Looks like it's game over for Trump, guys." — Matt

True.

I never expected the election result to be overturned. (I have no faith in our institutions, including the Supreme Court.) But I'm surprised the Court dismissed the Texas case without even a hearing — it seems rather hubristic given that 17 other states and POTUS had signed on. I thought that, for the sake of appearances, the Court would hear the case and then rule that any remedy would be impractical at this stage. Of course the end result would be the same.

Anyway, we now face an "interesting" situation, and I have no idea what will unfold. Earlier this year we kicked around the idea of a second American civil war. In retrospect, that discussion was somewhat prescient; there is clearly more momentum behind a national divorce than there was even six months ago. I’m not saying we will get to that point. I hope we don’t. And if we do reach such a defining moment, I hope it can be handled peacefully, through negotiations. Other countries have managed it.

That’s a long(ish)-term prospect, as in the next few years. The more immediate question is how people on the right will react in the next few weeks. Will they give up on politics and "go Galt"? Choose to keep working within the system? Or openly rebel?

The last option seems the least likely. But I can’t rule it out. Tonight, as I read the comments on some political blogs — blogs that are conservative but were not known, previously, for attracting bomb-throwing extremists — I feel uneasy. Maybe people are just venting. Maybe not.

"Interesting" times, indeed.

My guess is that Trump is definitely weighing in his mind whether to declare martial law or otherwise make his coup attempt overt. His form of cunning (I will not call it "cognition") is able to discern that doing anything of that nature will be, whether it succeeds or not, a crossing of the Rubicon.

He is probably discussing this with a variety of advisors--close ones who he knows can keep a secret. He is wondering whether to do it and, if he does do it, what timing is ideal; i.e., before or after the Electoral College votes on Monday.

My guess is also that these advisors are telling him not to do it, that he can't depend on the support of the military. Retreat for now and fight another day.

If he thought he could get away with it, however, he would do it. If he thought he could anoint himself dictator for life, he would do it. And, sad to say, millions of people in the US would be happy to see him be dictator for life and have Jr. be his successor.

There are people in this country who genuinely want fascist authoritarianism to be our form of government. There are probably people in *every* country who want that. It's a personality type. What Trump and his acolytes have done is make it OK to admit publicly that one wants that (in some form or another, to some degree or another).

I categorically reject Trump and think it's regrettable that intelligent and intellectually accomplished people associated with this blog think that it's OK to support him. Be a Conservative or a Libertarian? I have no issue with that, though I am not one. Support specific Trump policies? Not a problem either. But not the man or his candidacy. He has been a disaster for the country.

Anything is possible. There are people on the right calling for Trump to use the Insurrection Act. I don’t support this. I do support beginning the process for a negotiated peaceful division of the country. I think this would be better for everyone in the long run.

As far as dictatorship is concerned, you need to understand that the people who think the election was stolen (roughly half the country, according to polls) believe we are facing a de facto dictatorship of sham elections, permanent one-party rule, government-enforced speech codes, and a Fourth Estate that has morphed into a fifth column. It doesn’t matter that Kamala Harris will not be president for life, if she will be replaced by an unelected clone in eight years, and that clone will be replaced by another clone, and so on. There is already serious talk of expanding the Supreme Court to 13 or more justices and taking other actions designed to impose the will of the far left on the rest of the country. So there are legitimate fears in both directions.

The only workable solution is a national divorce. The alternative is not sustainable. The two sides just aren’t looking at the same reality. The left sees no problem with turning the country into California (one-party rule, permanent lockdowns, all-out war against taxpayers and law-abiders), while the right sees no problem with America First, smashing riots with lethal force, and executing Deep State plotters for treason. I’m only slightly caricaturing each side. There is no middle ground anymore, no "sensible center." The remaining establishment centrists are despised by both sides.

The situation is far more unstable than many people realize. The Supremes did no one any favors by ducking the issue. They should have let the arguments be aired, if only to give some semblance of a serious legal process.

Matt,
The state legislatures could refuse to certify democrat electors and then pick ones that would vote for Trump. I would like to see that, btw. Te Democrats/deep state are going to declare themselves dictators for life. The face man/woman (puppet) will change, but the deep state will remain. Revolution against the deep state is what Trumpism is all about. It was never about Trump himself. It is your side that is the authoritarian. Witness who is more likely to make laws that impact our lives in significant was. It ain't conservatives. We don't want a nanny state strangling us with idiotic business killing and spirit killing laws and regulations into perpetuity. I wish all of the weaklings and power hungry Karens that want that would move to some other country.

I categorically reject socialism, identity politics, centralized government, censorship, open borders, hatred of America and all of the other "liberal excesses" that are about to heaped upon us like never before. It is regrettable that intelligent and intellectually accomplished people associated with this blog think that it's OK to support any of that.

Assassin,
Dis you avoid movie theaters the last couple of years during the flu season?

Just to clarify my position: I didn’t expect the Supreme Court to take any substantive action, but I did think they would hear the Texas case. And I think they should have.

They could have listened to the arguments and then ruled that, while there is significant evidence of fraud and other worrying irregularities, no remedy can be applied at this point without disenfranchising legitimate voters.

This would’ve been a compromise approach, and like all compromises, it would not have totally satisfied either side. But it would’ve given a little something to each side.

The right would have had the satisfaction of seeing their arguments aired before the highest court and hearing the court acknowledge serious problems with the election. The left would’ve had the satisfaction of swearing in Biden and Harris with the imprimatur of the Supreme Court to legitimize the new administration.

As it is, by dismissing the case out of hand, the court has given everything to one side (the left) and nothing to the other side (the right). Presumably the court was reluctant to set a precedent that might be used to challenge future elections. But I think it would have been more prudent to focus on the immediate dangers of this situation than to worry about future hypotheticals.

By ditching the case without a hearing, the court has left half the country feeling that they have no legal recourse and that the system will not even hear their voices. This is very dangerous and is probably the main reason that some people are now talking about applying the Insurrection Act or taking other militant actions.

Sometimes compromise is the best policy, but today’s politicians, pundits, and jurists seem to have lost sight of this age-old truth.

Eric,

"It's also more deadly than even your strenuous flus." - Donald Trump on COVID-19, February 7, 2020.

"Now it’s starting out it’s not just all people, Bob. But just today and yesterday, some startling facts came out. It’s not just old, older-... Young people too. Plenty of young people. We’re looking at what’s going on in-" - Donald Trump, March 19, 2020

"I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don’t want to create a panic." - Donald Trump, March 19, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70V3nI9fAG8

Let the words of Donald Trump speak for themselves on tape. Either the virus is more dangerous than you claim... or Donald Trump is lying here. Which statement will you choose?

Michael,
I agree - the court should have heard the case. I also agree with your assessment of the impact of not hearing it. Now the left just celebrates and [erroneously] concludes that no fraud occurred even though the evidence was never weighed in an official setting.

Equally as bad, the Pennsylvania AG is declaring TX and and the other states that joined the suite to be "seditious". So now it is seditious to legally challenge The Left. At the same, social media is censoring any content/posts by individuals who question the official deep state decrees; not just about the election, but about covid or anything else.

"Science" is now whatever those in power say it is and science no longer involves challenges to theories based on new or additional evidence.

The media and the Democratic Party are one and the same. The media is populated with former deep staters. Some are going back to govt to work for Biden. The media used to be odds with the deep state and question them, like is necessary for a free country. Pravda on the Potomac is what we now have.

The Democrats are saying that Trump was seditious in wanting to pull troops out of Islamic lands. That's another one I forgot to mention that I reject; forever wars that a feature of the deep state.

How anyone can say that Trump is the dictator and is worse than any of that escapes me entirely. It's some kind of powerful brainwashing; or ignorance. I think it's just passive aggressive assertion of power on the Lefties part. They can take over against the will of tens of millions, but since no one bled, they can maintain their [false] sense of moral superiority.

Meanwhile, more evidence is coming out that Joe was deeply involved in Hunter's corruption (duh).

At any rate, it would appear that people like me and people like Matt have reached an impasse. I know I'm not backing down or surrendering. Secession or civil war must happen, IMO.

So my carefully laid out epistemological arguments were ignored, so I will just make the most basic point very succinctly.

A lot of responsible people, including major government figures that are also Republican and/or Conservative, said that the whole voter fraud thing is a delusion. I have yet to hear a response here as to why Bill Bar, Republican secretaries of state (who are presumably experts of sorts on the issue of elections), and now Conservative Supreme Court justices do not agree that there was voter fraud.

Tens of millions of people are, yes, absolutely wrong and deluded. It's both extremely depressing and scary.

But here's the thing: it's not *just* a delusion. It's a kind of expression of will to power in which people are saying, under Trump's leadership, "Eff it--we're just going to create our own reality." Qanon and a host of lunatic conspiracy theories are interconnected and intermingled with the voter fraud delusion/narrative as well. Eric's constant references to the "deep state" are a perfect example of this.

Tens of millions of people want to create their own reality, the facts be damned? I get it. Throughout history, this kind of thing has happened. Perhaps there are even positive delusions in the form of altruistic expressions of religious feeling, etc. But most of the time, this kind of thing doesn't lead to anything good.

That's why I'm saying, "C'mon guys, you're smart, don't do this." It's wrong both morally and factually.

That's my last word on the topic unless someone has something specific they wish to discuss further. I would appreciate a response to the direct question above, however.

Wouldn't it be wild if 100,000 protestors showed up on Inauguration day and made their chanting heard in the background of the oath-taking? (A few have already showed up in the evening.) If 200,000 showed up it would have an even bigger impact. It might happen, though unlikely. (How many showed up to protest Trump’s inauguration, BTW?)

Lasting impacts would occur if future Senatorial committee hearings put all the evidence and testimony of cheating on the record, accessible to all on the Internet, in defiance of the censorship of YouTube and other Big Tech sites. (YouTube will look bad for its censorship if Senatorial evidence convinces half the country that blatant cheating stole the election for Biden.)

The move-on, nothing-to-see-here attitude of our Betters (who imagine they’re being statesmanlike), has the potential to turn into a Pyrrhic victory for them. "Red" voters will be motivated to turn out massively in 2022, and the GOP might take back the House, perhaps by a big margin.

The It’s-All-Settled attitude of the media will also backfire on them In time. The government might take away its ability to act in such a fashion, depending on how future elections go.

My solution for the present is that the Supreme Court or congress or both should call for a new presidential election in those four states. This would of course be off-script constitutionally, and difficult to organize in time, especially given the pandemic. But it's what I think the Founders would call for, were they here now, because it is TRULY statesmanlike. I.e., it would be acceptable to both sides and would not leave whoever wins tainted with illegitimacy.

My solution for the future is that the US should mandate, by a constitutional amendment, ranked-choice-voting in federal elections. If we had had that option this year, neither of the two leading candidates, both extremists, would have won a majority of the votes, and so a middle-of-the road candidate (put up hopefully by a reformed Reform party) would have won in the second round.

If evidence of cheating is assembled soon and looks convincing, GOP politicians and notables could “pay back” the “winners” by pledging to boycott the Inauguration, state-of-the-union addresses, and other presidential appearances, to highlight the winner’s illegitimacy. If this pledging starts now, it might influence the Supreme Court in the upcoming cases (on substance, not procedure), that it will be ruling on. That’s unlikely; but such boycotting could be a very powerful weapon in other ways—and could be a means of letting off steam short of violence.

PS: Another way to avoid violence would be for a large group of state legislatures to declare their opinion that the election result is illegitimate. This would at a minimum induce the new administration to tread cautiously. And it would deter future blatant cheating. And it would get YouTube to undo its censorship of this issue. Perhaps it would accomplish more.

It would not have achieved anything if the Supreme Court had chosen to hear the Texas case. For one thing it would be sending the wrong message by implying that there was some legal substance behind the case. There wasn’t, so it shouldn’t have been considered in the first place. But do you really believe it would placate Trump supporters one iota? If so that would be a very naive point of view. There is only one person who is stoking division, and that is Trump. Don’t blame the wrong people.

To suggest Covid is an ‘inconsequential virus’ is either coming from a place of complete ignorance or is totally disingenuous. It is currently killing more people in America than 9/11 every single day, and is projected to do so for some time to come. I’m sure many do have underlying conditions, a good proportion of the population do, but that doesn’t mean they would die anytime soon if they hadn’t have contracted Covid.

Like others I am shocked that Trump is getting the support he is on this blog. Michael Prescott and Eric Newhill know better. But even thick people know better, as it doesn’t take a college degree or razor sharp intellect to see through Trump. This seems to be a clear cut case of emotion over intellect. Like other far right wing populists, Trump taps into primal tribalistic instincts and emotions, basically the reptillian brain. Here is something to consider. The population of Nazi Germany was not intriniscally evil. It is not as if something dictated that lots of evil people would be born at that place and time in history. To argue otherwise would take a lot of explanation. The road to Hitler’s power is long and complex but to all intents and purposes he was voted in (the Weimar Republic was a democracy). Also, the Gestapo could not logistically operate effectively without the broad support of the German public. So this is what normal everyday people are capable of in the right circumstances, and that has huge implications. No two historical events are identical, and no two people are identical, but there are nonetheless striking parallels. You are seeing the playing out of many same underlying processes and thinking which happened in Nazi Germany, basically a case of history repeating itself.

To suggest, as Eric does, that there might be something to the claims the election is rigged because it is possible to find some intelligent people who endorse that view is a non-sequitor. The claim there is something to the idea that the election is rigged because there are intelligent people who believe this is easily countered by the claim that there must be something in the view that the election wasn’t rigged because intelligent people believe that as well.

If MP and Eric were completely honest, they would concede that if this were the other way around they would see no fraud. They won’t admit this out loud, but I think on some level they already realize this.

I don’t have religious beliefs so don’t get to believe that evil people burn in hell. Shame.

“I am a loudmouthed asshole” - Yep.

Matt, I ignored your epistemological arguments because I just don’t think they’re relevant. What’s relevant is the empirical evidence, such as the Georgia surveillance videos.

If you don’t think there’s a Deep State, I can’t help you. I guess I hallucinated the railroading of General Flynn on a charge of lying to the FBI (which required covering up the report made by the agents who interviewed him and said he did not lie), the persecution of Flynn by a judge who decided to continue prosecuting the case on his own after charges were dropped (the judge is also the prosecutor — how Kafkaesque is that?), the years-long Russian collusion hoax made by possible when the FBI submitted the Steele dossier to the FISA court even though the bureau knew the dossier was garbage, the consistent efforts by military brass to prevent Trump from drawing down our troops in Afghanistan (apparently even lying to him about it), etc. The last four years have exposed two facts for anyone paying attention: 1), there is a Deep State that will relentlessly undermine any populist POTUS, and 2) the media are working with the Deep State hand in glove.

As for the election, we have proof that the Atlanta ballot counters sent the poll watchers home and illegally counted votes for two hours. This period corresponds to a hugely anomalous spike in Biden votes unmatched by any other batch of votes in Georgia and greater than his margin of victory in the state. We have video of a ballot counter slipping a USB drive into someone's pocket. We have video that appears to show a ballot counter feeding the same stack of ballots into a machine three times. We have sworn testimony from poll watchers, USPS drivers, and voters about significant fraud in other states. We have lists of thousands of dead voters, out-of-state residents who voted illegally, and underage voters. We have ballot harvesters caught on camera boasting that they collected thousands of blank ballots to be filled in later, along with footage of the ballots. We have ballot harvesters explaining how they paid people for ballots. We have people testifying that they received three or more ballots, and received ballots for people who had not lived at that address for years. We have software glitches and/or human errors that inexplicably always favored Biden. We have the Michigan attorney general going to court to prevent the results of Antrim County's analysis of 22 voting machines from being made public.

And you want to talk about epistemology? As Biden himself would say, "Come on, man."

Of course, there are elaborate conspiracy theories that go beyond anything I’ve laid out, but it’s not necessary to buy into them in order to see that something is seriously, seriously wrong. And if "it’s always been this way" (which I doubt), then that’s all the more reason to fix it.

I couldn’t find a "direct question" in your comment, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to respond to. Hopefully, somewhere in the above long-winded expostulation you’ll find the answer.

Mandy, hearing the Texas case would have allowed the Supreme Court to fashion a compromise, as I explained above. The compromise would not have changed the outcome of the election, but it might have mollified some of the very intense anger and frustration on the right. That would be helpful at a time like this, when the nation is at great risk of blowing apart.

Even if the situation were reversed, the Georgia surveillance video would convince me that there were serious problems in Georgia. Anyway, your argument is hopeless on its face. I could just as easily say that you would be insisting on fraud if Trump had been declared the winner or that, deep down, you know the election was fraudulent. This is the fallacy of "mind-reading." (I accept the reality of ESP, especially among people with close biological or emotional ties, but that doesn’t mean random strangers can know what I’m "really thinking," or that I can know what they’re thinking.)

Ah yes, Nazis. To the left, everybody who disagrees with their agenda is a Nazi. Meanwhile actual fascist brownshirts are running wild in major cities (Antifa rioted in Portland, Olympia, Sacramento, and DC yesterday; there were shootings, beatings, and at least one stabbing) and the left is fine with it. If and when prominent leftists start vigorously denouncing Antifa and BLM, I'll take their concerns about Nazism seriously. Until then, it’s just so much noise.

Mandy & Matt are highlighting why I decided to join this conversation.

I have long had an interest in how people's perception of the world (i.e. their reality) is formed.

When I speak to covid it is because I have direct personal experience analyzing the relevant data; demographics impacted, the healthcare utilization and cost patterns and creating projections. It is part of what I do a professional at a major US company. Knowing what I do,I can expand my knowledge by absorbing info from well credentialed professionals that are starting from the same place I amend, therefore, that I know are building on a solid foundation.

When I speak to the "deep state" it is because I know people who were - or are - within it. One of those is a direct family member and one, who was "high up" in the CIA, was an extended family member. The latter was Bruce Berkmans (google him). He is deceased now. A couple others are not deceased and I won't mention their names. While none of these people can tell me details involving classified matters, they have all directed me literature that they think provides an accurate picture of their world.

There are many -heck most - topics about which I have no real knowledge and I would never speak authoritatively about them or shape my world view based on what a media source shouts at me. I might entertain ideas based on whatever research I can perform on my own, but I am very cautious concerning becoming certain as to how things are. Again,I am not just googling up conspiracy theories.

And that is what astounds me, in a sad kind of way. People forming strong opinions to the point of labeling others as "evil" because some media source presented that distorted view to them.

But even media influence doesn't totally explain the strong opinions with no supporting personal experience. There still are some media sources presenting alternative views. So something about the individual and their social setting cause them to chose certain sources of information that provide a world view that fits, like a lock and key, to the individuals' existing psychology.

Everyone should read Edward Bernays. What he developed and implemented decades ago is being used like a weapon on the US population. How many have even heard of Bernays? Yet he was deemed to be one of the most influential people of the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

If they're telling you what you want to hear or if it's too good to be true, then you're being conned.

Matt,
The Deep Sate is a natural outgrowth of the federal government becoming massive and beyond any one man's control. The phenomenon is well known and, having worked for both the govt and private industry, I've seen it in action myself.

You get established bureaucracies consisting of people who are comfortable doing things they way they always have. They feel they understand the work and the direction for the future. Along comes some new leader that wants to shake things up, eliminate waste and change the direction. The bureaucracy has seen leaders come and go. They know they can wait out the new leader.If the new leader is perceived by underlings as creating chaos, then they can go so far as to sabotage the new leader; perhaps even getting rid of him sooner.

The US intelligence agencies are led by people with Ivy League or academy degrees. They think they are smarter than the rest of us. They have worked for years to establish short term and long term objectives. These plans have been developed and funded (funding = power!) in cloistered environments. They are career people. They are making side deals and receiving money. They also have prestige in Washington DC social circles. Certain concepts become social currency. Those not with the plan are marginalized and driven out. Group think and cohesion becomes stronger.

They then populate the media with retired (or semi-retired) members of their circle. They feed the media talking points and hold "access" over the media as leverage. The media hires people from the same educational background as the bureaucracy leadership. They all have the same ideology.

The Deep State has always existed to protect "American Interests". Those interests were always economic and integrally tied to big business. Post WW2 the ideology that America could be imperialistic in a good way by spreading "democracy" and policing the world was joined with protecting American interests. Our victory in WW2 + the success of the Marshall Plan convinced them that the above was/is both good and feasible.

Now "American Interests" are deemed to be more 'global". Big Business wants to be integrated into the global market. The idea of One World has taken hold. Any countries not down with that plan (e.g. Russia) are demonized. The Oppressive govt of China is part of the plan. It's a huge market and a source cheap profit increasing production.

These are all well established facts and you could look them up yourself. The World Bank and other "respected" organizations have written extensively about it (as if its a good thing thing that we should all want). Foreign policy publications are full of this ideology. China has been chosen to be the world manufacturing center by 2030 (some projections have it at 2050). These plans went into implementation during the Clinton years. Again, there is open source material readily available - straight from the horse's mouth - that describes all of this in no uncertain terms. No reading between the lines necessary. Have you read any of this? Have you watched any foreign policy seminars? If not, how is that you dismiss any of this so quickly?

Congress people - both left and right - and bureaucrats can be bribed or otherwise rewarded handsomely for forwarding the agenda. That is now coming out with Hunter and Joe Biden. No Surprise at all to me.

Sneaky memes are developed and are propagated to get the citizens to go along with what is not in their best interest. A lot of it is aimed to demoralize the populace so they don't resist. America is an evil country. Whites have too much privilege. You're a racist if you don't want policies that mean your job goes to cheap third world labor. One World is beautiful. All humanity will sing in harmony. Capitalism is dead anyhow. We'll just take from the rich and give to all of those whose jobs we caused to be lost. On and on. We hear it every day. It is even taught in schools. Those with no sense of history or context actually swallow it hook line and sinker.

Along comes Trump and his supporters who don't like the One World agenda at all; especially since it means millions of Americans are getting screwed; nay the very idea of America is getting screwed.

So the established bureaucracy and their media wing (aka "the deep state") go into action against Trump and his supporters. The evidence that occurred is right in front of your face. MP noted some of it.

You believe it all is justified because you're primed with ideologies, like capitalism is dead, everyone singing kumbaya is possible on earth and various other new age "spiritual" concepts.

All I would ask is that you realize that there are other points of view that have much validity and those holding them are not "evil". Or just admit that you are 100% down with the deep state ideology and you have declared war on at least half of the country. That would be preferable to me than attempts to gaslight us into thinking that we are deranged and ignorant.

Michael, I don't think Mandy actually called you a Nazi, but that they believe there are parallels between what is going on with Trump and how he is running the US.

As for ANTIFA and BLM rioting, I think there is a distinction between peaceful protesting and opportunists who cause trouble. Someone pointed this out to me, but you are not going to find footage of an actual peaceful protest this past year in US cities that have turned into a riot, not even among right-wing media that have an absolute axe to grind against those organizations, any footage you see of rioting is already in action. I have heard many anecdotes of protesters who were in cities that had riots say the riots happened in entirely different parts of the cities long after the actual protests happened.

Michael,

My direction question would be: Why did Bill Bar and other Republican officials say there was no voter fraud if there actually was?

Eric,

I agree that there is a big federal bureaucracy and it can have significant inertia, and that isn't always a good thing. The problem is that the term and concept "Deep State" are used by people in advancing whatever theories, including conspiracy theories, they might have. Please note that I don't think all of these theories (including some conspiracy theories) are 100% wrong. But people engage in some really sloppy argumentation with this stuff.

The world and the government are complicated, and I for one don't pretend that I know or understand what is going on. I'm not an expert in that area.

But I can still apply my cognitive tools to the dumb stuff that people say. For example, if Bill Bar says there was no significant voter fraud, and people who were fans of the guy suddenly say, "He's actually a Deep State operative!" I can call all kinds of BS on that.

"When I speak to covid it is because I have direct personal experience analyzing the relevant data; demographics impacted, the healthcare utilization and cost patterns and creating projections. It is part of what I do a professional at a major US company. Knowing what I do,I can expand my knowledge by absorbing info from well credentialed professionals that are starting from the same place I amend, therefore, that I know are building on a solid foundation."

And which source should the arbitrary Joe who reads this blog trust? A random Internet 'crackpot' or the CDC who puts both their data and methodology available for anybody on the Internet.

Here is a link to the World Economic Forum (the Davos crowd, you know, the Clintons and Obama were regular attendees) explaining the glorious One World future and how covid is a great excuse to further the plan. This is what the deep state is aligned with (as I mentioned in a previous comment). This is not Alex Jones material. This is straight from the horse's mouth.

https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

A lightly redacted copy of the Antrim County (MI) forensics report has been released. I've read all 23 pages. It certainly sounds bad, though we must bear in mind that the conclusions are already in dispute and the report's author, Russell Ramsland, has been criticized for errors and misstatements in a prior court filing.

In any case, here are some highlights, with the caveat that these claims may not hold up:

//The Dominion Voting System … intentionally generates enormously high number of ballot errors. The electronic ballots are then transferred for adjudication. The intentional errors lead to bulk adjudication of ballots with no oversight, no transparency, and no audit trail. This leads to voter or election fraud.…

The allowable election error rate established by the Federal Election Commission guidelines is of one in 250,000 ballots (.0008%). We observed an error rate of 68.05%.…

The tabulation log for the forensic examination of the server for Antrim County from December 6, 2020 consists of 15,676 individual events of which 10,006 67 or 68.05% of the events were recorded errors. These errors resulted in overall tabulation errors or ballots being sent to adjudication.…

The Dominion Voting System produced systemic errors and high error rates both prior to the [software] update and after the update; meaning the update (or lack of update) is not the cause of errors....

All server security logs prior to 11:03 PM on November 4, 2020 are missing.… Other server logs before November 4, 2020 are present; therefore, there is no reasonable explanation for the security logs to be missing.

On November 21, 2020, an unauthorized user unsuccessfully attempted to zero out election results. This demonstrates additional tampering with data.…

The Dominion Image Cast Precinct (ICP) machines have the ability to be connected to the Internet…

The same machines and software are used in 48 other counties in Michigan.//

Much of the report outlines the practices used to image the contents of the hard drives and analyze them. Among other things, the forensic team found that the Windows software had not been updated for more than three years, while the antivirus definitions were more than four years out of date. There were other obvious security problems.

Reviewing the tabulation logs for November 6, the team found "there were 1,222 ballots reversed out of 1,491 total ballots cast, thus resulting in an 81.96% rejection rate." Additionally, "In the logs we identified that the RCV or Ranked Choice Voting Algorithm was enabled… This allows the user to apply a weighted numerical value to candidates and change the overall result."

Some of the claims seem trivial or spurious. For instance, the report says that "write-in ballots were flagged to be diverted automatically for adjudication," which would allow "a computer operator to decide to whom to award those votes." But I don't see any other way of tabulating write-in ballots, since the machines cannot recognize handwriting.

The more technical parts of the report were redacted by court order to protect Dominion's proprietary software. Needless to say, Dominion and officials of Michigan's state government strongly dispute the report's conclusions.

The report is here:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772/antrim-county-forensics-report.pdf

//As for ANTIFA and BLM rioting, I think there is a distinction between peaceful protesting and opportunists who cause trouble. ... you are not going to find footage of an actual peaceful protest this past year in US cities that have turned into a riot ... any footage you see of rioting is already in action.//

Sorry, not so. There is plenty of footage of peaceful protests escalating into riots. A five-second Google search for "protest escalates riot" turns up 44,500 videos, including this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOhpDNmwq4I

Surely you're not claiming that Antifa doesn't riot? Rioting is all that Antifa does. They even boost about it in their tweets, showing off their riot gear and guns.

"Why did Bill Bar and other Republican officials say there was no voter fraud if there actually was?"

I believe Barr said only that the Justice Department's investigation had not turned up any evidence of fraud *at that time.* Since the investigation had started only a day or two earlier (the Justice Department coming late to the game as usual), the statement didn't amount to much, and Barr pretty quickly "clarified" it, pointing out that the investigations were in an early stage and ongoing.

Lots of information has come out since then, including the Antrim County material that I summarized above, which just came out today.

I don't know who the "other Republican officials" are, but some of them are probably establishment hacks, and many probably support Biden, either openly or secretly. Mitt Romney, Pat Toomey, and Cindy McCain are examples.

There is a kind of civil war going on inside the GOP between the Bush-era establishment people who wish to go back to "business as usual" and the Trumpian upstarts. It mirrors the civil war in the Democratic Party between the aging Old Guard like Pelosi and radical bomb throwers like AOC.

Actually I'm pretty sure I did address this point somewhere upstream, but the thread is so long that it's easy to lose track.

SBU,
Yes, it is a problem to sift the wheat from the chaff on the internet. So don't trust me. I don't want you to. I'm just asking that people think before they hit the key board.

Have you been to the CDC site lately? They say exactly what I say. Covid is condition that kills people that are around 80 years old and have serious underlying conditions.

Actually, the CDC site is disorganized and they do not exercise transparency with a lot of their data. But, again, find that for yourself.

You can go to an actuarial website and type in your age and health status and it will return your expected years of life. Type in age 80 and list some underlying conditions like diabetes, chronic congestive heart disease, etc.

Don't be a random crank on the internet just spewing whatever some airhead "news" reporter tells you.

Matt,
Please detail out the investigation that Barr performed. What did he look at?

Michael wrote,

"I don't know who the "other Republican officials" are..."

Secretaries of state, for example, who are asserting that their states' elections were clean. Georgia, etc.

"Secretaries of state, for example, who are asserting that their states' elections were clean. Georgia, etc."

Georgia’s election is one that we can definitively and categorically pronounce not-clean. So any politician of any party saying that it was clean is self-evidently not to be trusted.

I trust my own eyes (and the four surveillance camera videos) more than I trust any political authority.

There are people in my life who I love who are hard core conservative Republicans and people who I love that are uber liberal Democrats. Both sides when I am around them can't resist making mean comments about the other side, perhaps feeling me out? Trying to figure out whose side I am on? I don't know.... and I am caught in the middle trying not to get caught out. Sometimes I tell them exactly what I believe, that I am deeply suspicious of free will and lean heavily towards fate and predestination and think that perhaps everything that happens here happens to piss us off, to evoke lots of emotion, just so that we feel and experience duality and separation, and "sides" is just something that exists here and probably not really of our own free will but perhaps just to teach out souls what it means and how it feels to be separate, unique, individual which is something that can't be learned in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness that so many near death experiencers describe so the the truth is that mostly I don't care and am just trying to survive this life as best I can until it's my turn to cross over to the other side which I am fairly certain will happen and perhaps that far away.

Yesterday a strange thing happened to me. In the morning I got to thinking about that movie "Goodfellas" and that scene where Joe Pesci gets whacked by the "made guys" because he killed one of their own played over in my head. I must have been thinking about Goodfellas for at least 15 or 20 minutes before I was able to think of something else? So.... Yesterday evening I was flipping around and I'll be damned but I chanced upon the movie Goodfellas on TV! And what scene did I stumble upon? The one where Joe Pesci gets whacked! Exactly the part that I was thinking about that morning!

And this kind of thing has happened to me enough that it keeps me questioning the whole idea about free will and makes me wondering about if perhaps the future is already planned and we are just living here experiencing the things that the Universe wants us to experience? Especially including politics which really seems to be really good at causing duality and separation......

Please accept my humble apologies Michael Prescott. Sometimes I am prone to conflate a good education with genuine underlying intelligence. They are not the same thing and sometimes I forget this, as evidently I have in your case. Please forgive my temporary mental aberration. I am not trying to ‘mind read’, just incredulous that any intelligent, rational, and impartial person could genuinely believe the things you are claiming. But on reflection I am not sure you check any of those boxes, particularly the latter.

You do evidently have reading comprehension difficulties however, as evidenced by your response to my reference to the Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany. You might want to re-read what I wrote and match it against your response.

It is noteworthy that you do provide a detailed and intricate narrative in an effort to support your view points. To an extent this is commendable. But nonetheless you probably need to take a step back a minute and see the wood for the trees. I am really in essence repeating what Matt has previously pointed out, but I believe it is crucial to address this point in a meaningful way, which to date you haven’t (neither has Eric). The Supreme Court has a 6-3 conservative majority and 3 Trump appointees, but unanimously rejected the 2 cases brought before them because they allegedly had no legal merit. Similarly with the state lawsuits. Many who rejected the lawsuits were Republican conservative judges, who at least in some cases prefer Trump to Biden. And William Barr is certainly a Trump supporter. Basically the big picture is that many people who have no vested interest in either ignoring or suppressing evidence which suggests voter fraud, or being dishonest about it, have claimed that there is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. Why is this? And it’s not good enough to respond by saying ‘well tell me what Bill Barr has actually looked into’. The overriding point is why would he not be motivated to conduct the requisite investigations to prove voter fraud? Provide me with a credible answer to these questions and I might start taking what you say more seriously.

And it doesn’t impress me that much that you can detail out answers in the way you do. So can flat earthers. I once falsely had the impression that flat earthers were so cognitively deficient they would be barely able to tie their own shoelaces in the morning. Not so. And they have an answer to every conceivable objection you might have to their viewpoint. They can explain for instance why the Coriolis force does not prove we are living on a spherical spinning planet. And why we can observe curvature at sufficiently elevated points of perspective doesn’t imply the earth is spherical. And so on. Unless one has a lot of time on their hands they wouldn’t have the time to closely scrutinize all their claims and all the experiments they have allegedly conducted which proves the earth is flat. And probably in most cases there is little motivation to do so. And so it is with this. When you take a step back, the ludicrous nature of the claims of widespread voter fraud is simply ludicrous, especially when you consider, as already point out, that the fraud has in part been perpetrated and perpetuated by people who clearly support Trump. That is not to say I haven’t considered the details at all, but only that I can’t exhaustively do so. Sure you could claim that unless one can address all your points in detail then they have no basis for rejecting your claims, but a flat earther and creationist would say exactly the same thing.

Of course I can’t deny that it is possible in principle that there was widespread voter fraud, and a corresponding widespread cover up by both the right and left. But equivalently I can’t deny the logical possibility that we live on a flat earth. After all I have absolutely no direct evidence to the contrary, and have not had the time (nor the motivation) to address the many alleged reasons why the earth is flat.

Give me a credible response to the above query. Then I will take you more seriously.

Mandy, I’m not impartial. Is anyone?

I’ve presented what I think is very strong evidence of fraud in Fulton County, GA. I also linked to the disturbing forensic analysis from Antrim County, with the caveat that I have yet to see a detailed rebuttal. If all this strikes you as no more persuasive than "flat Earth" arguments, then we see things differently.

Note that a comparison to flat Earthers can be used to belittle any controversial position. Before the military started releasing videos, a belief in UFOs was sometimes characterized that way. Psi still is. It’s not a compelling argument to use on a blog like this, at least in my view.

With regard to Barr, other Republicans, courts, etc., I can’t say what people's motives are or what's going on behind the scenes. Our institutions strike me as increasingly unreliable. I’m sure most lawmakers and courts in Venezuela have sided with the Chavez and Maduro regimes, and I’m not sure our ruling class is any better.

There’s also the simple matter of fear. People who’ve testified about election fraud have received death threats, been doxxed, etc.

Who knows what combination of fear, social conformity, corruption, and stupidity may be involved? All I know is that the election looks and smells bad to me and, if polls are right, to about half the country, including one in six Democrats.

Sorry if I misunderstood your point about Nazis, whatever it was.

You wrote in your first comment, "If MP and Eric were completely honest, they would concede that if this were the other way around they would see no fraud. They won’t admit this out loud, but I think on some level they already realize this." This (mind-reading) is a form of arbitrary assertion, and like any arbitrary assertion, it can be turned around. I could say, "If Mandy were completely honest, she would concede that if this were the other way around, she would see obvious fraud. She won’t admit this out loud, but I think on some level she already realizes this." See how it works?

Finally, after twenty years of blogging about the paranormal, I’m accustomed to people not taking me seriously! Or to be less flippant about it, I’m more interested in giving my honest opinion than in courting people’s approval.

Any comment as to why Trump's legal team has had so little success overall and whether you all find his legal people (the most) professional? Also, the witnesses you have had the opportunity to listen to, any comment on their credibility? Any comment regarding the amount of money Trump has managed to gather for this legal battle, do you find it disturbing at all with those sums when they seem to be able to be used for any and all purposes Trump wishes for? As an outsider, this is all a conundrum to me, it is so easy to see the whole process as a sneaky way to keep using the people who love and trust him, yet you say this has to be seen as something totally different.

“Note that a comparison to flat Earthers can be used to belittle any controversial position” - I was using the flat earthers as an analogy. The point of an analogy is to use a different situation/context to elucidate a point or concept, so often a more extreme example is used, as in this case, which is not intended to equate the two things. This being said, I do concede that the statement “but equivalently I can’t deny the logical possibility that we live on a flat earth” implies this was more than an analogy, so that latter sentence was my mistake. I am not always completely precise in my language (particularly when it is early in the morning before I have had enough caffeine to get the synapses firing properly). But just to be clear, I do not equate flat earthers to people who believe their was widespread fraud in the US election. If I knew for a fact that one was true and one was false, but that’s all I knew, I would believe the election was rigged and the Earth is spherical. My broader point is that it is possible to formulate detailed defenses of literally any point of view, including ones that are wholly unreasonable, given sufficient motivation and a modicum of intellect, and also to present substantial amounts of ‘evidence’ to back up the claim, and the fact that the flat earthers are able to do these things is conclusive evidence of this. That was my point.
“Mandy, I’m not impartial. Is anyone?” - Everyone has an inbuilt tendency for bias, by virtue of mental processes such as confirmation bias, heuristic and motivational thinking etc. No one is exempt from these things; it is part of the human condition. And everyone will exhibit bias at various stages in their life. So in this sense you are correct. But I guess it is a matter of degree. In terms of being objective in this instance, I don’t think you are even close. I
“Who knows what combination of fear, social conformity, corruption, and stupidity may be involved?” - The fact that so many on the right, including Trump supporters, claim there is no evidence of widespread election fraud, is a very serious problem for the point of view that such fraud took place, much much more so than you are prepared to acknowledge. Your response to this problem falls well short of being a meaningful one. Of course it is possible that someone put a gun to their heads etc, but how likely is this really?
“Sorry if I misunderstood your point about Nazis, whatever it was.” - It was obvious what my point was, I explicitly stated it.
“You wrote in your first comment, "If MP and Eric were completely honest, they would concede that if this were the other way around they would see no fraud. They won’t admit this out loud, but I think on some level they already realize this." This (mind-reading) is a form of arbitrary assertion, and like any arbitrary assertion, it can be turned around. I could say, "If Mandy were completely honest, she would concede that if this were the other way around, she would see obvious fraud. She won’t admit this out loud, but I think on some level she already realizes this." See how it works?”
- Nope, you are very wrong on this, and here’s why. Suppose I discovered some facts that I don’t currently know that which suddenly convinced me that their was widespread election fraud. Upon such a change of view I wouldn’t suddenly adopt the view that people who believe there was no election fraud are being completely unreasonable to the point that I questioned whether they could seriously entertain such a notion. Around 50-60 state level lawsuits were rejected, often by Republican judges, and the Supreme Court similarly rejected the cases presented to them. This is a complete and utter failure to convince any part of the judicial system that there is any real evidence such fraud took place, even parts of the judicial system which are almost certainly biased in favour of Trump. So even if it happened to be true that the alleged fraud took place it is certainly not unreasonable to adopt the position that the fraud has been largely manufactured by Trump and his supporters. There is not the symmetry which you imply. And I still can’t shake the feeling that on some level you don’t completely buy into everything you are saying. That is not an assertion, I might be wrong, but like I said, it is a feeling I can’t quite shake off.

“I’m more interested in giving my honest opinion than in courting people’s approval.” - that is generally a desirable trait, and you have been very fair in allowing views on this blog which sharply contrast with your own. But everyone who is perpetuating these conspiracy theories (which is what they are) is at least to some degree causing harm. This is not a benign position.
Anyway I see that Mitch Mcconnell has finally conceded that Biden was the winner of the election. I guess someone must have put a gun to his head, eh?

Mandy,
Most of the court cases were not dismissed for lack of evidence. In fact, they refused to hear the evidence and dismissed the cases on legal technicalities. The evidence has not been heard.

More germane to my quest to understand people's formation of world views, do you recall when all of the educated smart right thinking people, that sneer at the idea of election fraud today, accused Trump of colluding with Russia to steal the election? They ranted and raved about it 24/7 for years. Appointed Mueller, spent tens of $millions. ...and found nada, zip, zero. They were so certain, but it never happened.

So your chiding - to me and people like me - is more humorous than you realize. You've kind of lost your moral authority once you devolve into blatant hypocrisy.

Hiya Eric. I was wondering when you were going to chime in. Could you point to the place on my posts where I refer to the Mueller investigations. Thank you.

2020 Election Investigative Documentary: Who’s Stealing America?
BY THE EPOCH TIMES December 14, 2020 Updated: December 14, 2020 1:33:33 long

This is the first investigative documentary published on election integrity in the 2020 U.S. presidential election.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/2020-election-investigation-who-is-stealing-america_3617562.html

For the few diehards still following this epic thread (now threatening to rival The Iliad in both length and repetition), here's a good Twitter rollout from someone named John Henry:

/It’s impossible to get away with rigging an election. If this election was rigged by way of rigging 3-4 key swing state cities, as Republicans claim, then this election would’ve produced a ton of data anomalies and irregularities. We would expect to see things like:

• bellwether counties would suddenly stop being bellwether counties despite decades of near 100% consistency

• the rigged cities would produce implausibly high urban turnout but demographically identical cities in neighboring battleground states would have normal urban turnout

• you would have an implausibly high number of Biden-only ballots (no down ballot selections) but the same phenomenon would not be seen with Trump ballots

• a forensic audit of the voting machines used in these rigged cities would produce unexplainably high error rates and the edit logs would be nowhere to be found. They would be wiped.

• You would expect to see weird things like Trump winning key bellwether battleground states like Ohio and Florida and win them easily but would lose just enough battleground states (where the rigged cities are located) to put him under 270

• you would expect to see suspicious activity going on in these “rigged” cities... such as: blocking poll watchers... stopping the count late on election night with Trump in the lead but then resume counting hours later with huge statistically impossible spikes for Biden

• If Trump really did win in a landslide but due to vote flipping & corrupted machines ended up losing, you would expect to see a red wave, such as Rs flipping 12 seats & winning all 27 toss ups, while Ds have a dismal election night performance despite Biden shattering records

So obviously, since none of the above was observed in this election, there is no reason to suspect fraud. No reason to suspect that Biden isn’t the legitimate winner of 80 million votes and thus the most inspiring politician of our time. A once in a century politician.//

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1339260413096161290.html

I think someone asked if I found the witnesses credible. (Sorry, I can't remember who; it's hard to keep up with all the comments.) Answer: for the most part, yes. There are the inevitable flakes seeking attention. But most are normal people like the ones in this ten-minute video compilation:

https://vimeo.com/490430560?fbclid=IwAR0EX-QWbTQFd5_1dPbzAONWnBy4dT0fdOCsO7o-u0v2AHm09evWQBkE6j0

Finally, this is the question that's been literally keeping me up at night:

//When citizens no longer feel as though they have a say in their government, when they feel as though their government has been stolen right out from in front of them, they no longer feel an obligation to live their lives by the framework laid out in the Constitution. There have always been Americans who have felt wronged or disenfranchised or powerless and decide to act in ways that are...anti-social, but they've largely been extreme outliers. What happens when fully half of the population feel as though they have been disenfranchised and were forced to watch the theft play out right in front of them while politicians told them, "Nothing to see here"?//

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/12/the_fraudulent_2020_election_is_history_unfolding_before_our_eyes.html

Mandy,

You seem to be a cool person, so if you would like to be my Facebook friend, you can easily find via a search on my name.

Cheers,

Matt

Yeah,none of that happened because I didn't hear on Pravda.

Pravda not lie. You lie! You hypnotized by Orange Man!

I is a free thinkur that thinks what ever Pravda tells me be true cuz Pravda is free thinker and Orange man is Nazi!!!!

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