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Ro, that's interesting. Hawaii! I didn't know I was talking to a person from Hawaii. Lucky bugger! I love to go diving and fishing in the ocean. I'm stuck in Tennessee because I married a Tennessee girl. If you marry a girl from Tennessee and they ever get you to move here - you're here for life! {grin} I've worked with Norway rats in biomedical research but have never seen or worked with the Black rat or roof rat. Do ya'll have grey squirrels or Fox Squirrels in Hawaii? I suppose if you did they'd be an invasive species? A lot of the animals ya'll do have are invasive species and not native to Hawaii. I would find that terribly interesting though.

Art: Yes, my dad brought me to Hawaii for vacation when I was a child in the 80s, and I never got it out of my system.
As a straight woman, I don't think I'll be "marrying a girl from Tennessee," but my distant ancestors did originally come from Gibson County, TN a hundred years ago, and I've always wanted to go there.

No squirrels whatsoever in Hawaii. But we have mongooses and feral pigs. Hunters have a field day with the wild pigs here, they go with their dogs, which corner and hold the pig by the snout, then the hunter moves in for the kill and attacks it with a hunting knife...from what I've heard. Some people find it really fun and delightful. Poor pigs. To each their own, I guess.

\\"Poor pigs. To each their own, I guess." - Ro//
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Sorry! Didn't know you were a female? Now I know. Wild feral pigs are a big problem in the United States. I've seen TV shows about wild pigs in Texas and they said there are over a million wild pigs in Texas. So many they can't control them by hunting.

I've seen wild pigs in Florida along the freeways. I saw a black sow and a litter of piglets walking behind her right along the road. I was wishing I could get a couple of those piglets and butcher and eat them. I was just imagining how delicious they'd be. {grin}

I've never been to Hawaii but I think I would really enjoy going snorkeling in Hanauma Bay. I've read that it is a great place to go snorkeling?

Hey Art, this is a fairly off topic and may seem a bit odd - you might not remember me so bear with me. Do you remember back on the near-death.com message boards (now gone it seems) a man going by the name of dking777 who talked a lot about his NDEs and made some prediction that something big was supposed to happen in 2010, the so-called "Ring of Light"?

I found out recently "DKing" passed away at the end of January, I had him on Facebook and his father announced his passing. Some of his predictions involved him, so along with the "ring of light" prediction in 2010 being a bust, a part of me is now more skeptical about the claims he made. Not that I want to insult a man that is now gone, but I feel it is a bit natural to be inquisitive at this point.

One of the things he claimed was he made (which you may or may not remember) some predictions which he notarized and put in "time capsules" of events that were to occur up until 2010. He claimed he sent these capsules to various people and places such as post offices and that they were supposed to be allowed to open them at the end of 2010, so far nothing has come about them.

I do want to question some of DKing's family members the veracity of his life story, such as his medical condition or his car accident that lead to his NDE. I don't hold anything against him, but a part of me wonders if he had some mental issues that led to confabulation, or if he was like Dannion Brinkley who appeared to have initially made some correct predictions from NDEs and then just went off the rails for accuracy after.

Aftrbrnr, I do remember somebody making some predictions on the near-death dot com message board? Man that was a LONG time ago! LOL! I can't believe I've been reading about and studying this stuff for 20 years now! I got interested in NDEs and the holographic universe after we got our first computer and got hooked up to the internet. Our first computer was on dial-up and it took a long time to load.

I think the two sites I spent the most time on were survival science and the near-death dot com message board. Also back then there was a link to the holographic universe on the survival science board and I read Dr. Ken Ring's book Life At Death and he had a whole chapter in his book about the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe.

That was also when I was real active on the Motely Fool Retire Early message board. I was working on trying to figure out how I could retire early. So far so good!

You know who and what I remember from the near-death dot com message board? A guy named Marine Boy that used to give me hell and loved arguing with me. I think he was from England and was the kind of person who would argue with a circle saw. Talk about experiencing some duality and separation? It drove me nuts! He was the reason I quit participating on that board. Oh my God he was annoying!

"I was working on trying to figure out how I could retire early. So far so good!"

Uh ... have you checked your portfolio lately?

☹️😷

\\"Uh ... have you checked your portfolio lately?" Michael Prescott//
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Yeah, me and my wife have both taken a big hit. But I figure so has almost everybody else? We're all in pretty much the same boat? Neither one of us has started taking distributions from any of our tax deferred accounts so I'm hoping those two extra years we get by them raising the required minimum distribution age from 70 years of age to 72 years will give us a couple of extra years for our accounts to regain some of what they've lost?

I can't resist providing this link with one of the German NDEs. This is a truly amazing account of an after life experience. This man also has had OBEs since childhood. It has so many elements in it and it has a focus on love which I am sure that Bruce will be able to relate to. I hope everyone watches this video. It is well worth the time. It is one of the best accounts of an NDE that I have ever seen - AOD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPdlJXRUhJo

A few years ago I read a very interesting article about neuroscientists at Michigan State University who think they've cracked the mystery about NDE's. The researchers medically induced cardiac arrest in two rats while monitoring EEG's. Brain activity with advanced EEG monitoring, in the clinically dead rats, was measurable for nearly 30 minutes. Researchers claim that their discovery is the foundation to being able to explain what NDE's really are. As technology advances neuroscientists will one day be able to know exactly what part of the brain is still active at clinical death.

The rat studies have been covered pretty extensively on this blog.

https://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2014/07/oh-rats.html

https://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2014/07/oh-rats-part-deux.html

https://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2014/07/of-mice-and-men.html

https://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2017/05/all-rats-go-to-heaven-.html

There's any archive search feature on the left side of this page which allows you to search the blog for older content. Given that there have been more than 1,600 posts and nearly 50,000 comments, many subjects have already been addressed.

@Sam

I used to really debate NDEs and I wrote this to show just how absurd the hallucination argument for NDEs is. Maybe trying to answer these will show you how absurd the hallucination models is.

NDE Questions

1. Why do you maintain that consciousness is poorly understood but then argue the hallucination model is more reasonable then the survival model even if the survival model is strongly suggested by the accounts?

2. Does the hallucination model lend itself to any predictions? Can it be falsified?

3. Why is it mainstream NDE researchers reject the hallucination argument? https://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes/common-questions.html

4. What is the evolutionary advantage to NDEs?

5. Hallucination according to the Mirriam Webster is defined the following way. : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD)
NDE accounts often start  in the environment where the experiencer is, for example a hospital room. If they report seeing the environment they are in correctly why you maintain this is a hallucination?

6. NDEr’s  have demonstrated the ability to accurately describe surgeries being done on them ( Sabom and Sartori studies). Why is accurately describing the actions being done to you now considered a hallucination

7. NDEr’s have correctly identified conversations and visual aspects of their environment, why is this considered now a hallucination.

8. How can you maintain this is a hallucination when it clear that they are in reality

9. While hallucinations might be considered to be real at the moment the person hallucinating later realizes the experience was a hallucination. Yet the overwhelming amount of NDErs ( over 99%) maintain this experience was not a hallucination. If NDEs are hallucination why this radical departure from the normal model of hallucinations.

10. Hallucinations among those born blind or those who became blind at a young age lack visual components, however the Ring Study demonstrated that NDErs who were born blind or became blind at a young age had visual components. Why this radical departure from the normal model of hallucinations as demonstrated by dream studies of the blind. http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/what-do-blind-people-dream-about.html

11. If NDEs are comforting  fantasies why do some people have hellish NDEs?

12. If NDEs are fantasies why don't children report seeing their living parents during the experience?

13. If NDEs are fantasies why do many people report religious tension between the experience and their prior religious views?

14. If NDEs are fantasies why do people report a life judgment stage where they experience the suffering they caused others. Also what evolutionary advantage would this provide?

15. Hallucinations caused by a lack of oxygen (hypoxia)  start of complex but degrade to simplicity and then cease  as the brain becomes more and more damaged , while NDEs start off simple and become more complex. Please explain this if you wish to use the lack of oxygen as an explanation as this is the exact opposite pattern of an NDE. Hypoxia as an experience is incredibly frightening which is the exact opposite of the vast majority of NDEs- http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0101-60832007000700015&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

 Also  explain the cases where patients had the normal amount of oxygen such as in an hospital setting.

16. Hallucinations caused by an excess of Co2 cause people to see geometric shapes ,music notes and numbers, yet these features are absent from NDEs, please explain. Please explain the cases where the patient had an NDE and they had a normal amount of C02. Please explain why scuba divers with excess Co2 do not report NDEs upon returning to the surface. http://hallucinations.enacademic.com/717/geometric_hallucination

17. Why do NDErs uniformly report seeing their deceased loved ones in the prime of their lives, not as they remembered them before they died? Why such a uniformity for a hallucination?

18. Why do NDErs universally report communication via telepathy during the experience? Why such a uniformity for a hallucination?

19. If these are fantasy experiences why  are the NDEs with dead pets relatively infrequent? Many people do form profound attachments with pets  so if they were hallucinating departed loved ones why not these?

20. If you feel the tunnel experience can be explained through physiology please explain why it rarely happens outside Western NDEs?

21. Please explain NDEs in patients under going Cardiac arrest as this instantly removes consciousness.

22. If you feel NDEs are caused by Anesthesia Awareness please explain why the frequency of NDEs is far greater than the frequency of Anesthesia Awareness and why they describe the experience as pleasurable and not horrific.

23. If you feel NDEs are caused by endorphins please explain how NDEs both start and stop suddenly, while Endorphins start off slow and end slow.

24. NDE-ers often say how uncomfortable it was getting back in their body. Why should that be if they were just dreaming or hallucinating since people are already in their body when they dream?

25. When some NDErs report meeting people who died; they often report they met people they were not close to or had poor relationship with. Why fantasize such a meeting?

26. Please explain cases such as the Al Sullivan case and the Pam Reynold’s case that had the patient making accurate observations when the overall conditions of the surgery would have made it impossible.

27. While not directly an NDE experience please explain "Peak in Darien" experience where dying people report to those around them that they saw someone in the afterlife who was not known to them to be dead but later was verified to be dead.

Bruce Greyson reported a case where a boy was badly injured and had an NDE. When he came back he told his family that he had seen his sister in the afterlife and she told him he had to go back. His father asked the doctor to give him medicine as he was clearly hallucinating as his sister was away at college. However shortly after his injury his sister then unknown to the family has been killed in a car accident.

This is such an extraordinary coincidence if these experiences are hallucinations but perfectly consistent with the view they are not.

All of this can easily be explained if NDEs are NOT hallucinations
These questions are tricky indeed for the hallucination model.

All science is by it's nature provisional. This means that as new knowledge is gained older views are rejected. For example science overturned geocentricism, the eternal age of the universe, the immovability of the continents, special creation, a mechanical world view and much more. Is it possible science could overturn the notion that the brain produces consciousness? Could materialism go the way of Newtonian Physics?

That’s a good selection of questions Kris. I’m sitting here with popcorn looking forward to reading the answers :)

Very interesting AOD. Thank you.

Oh they can answer them in the same way creationists or mythicist answer questions against their positions; contrived and badly.

They are their own worst enemies.

Kris, all those questions are interesting, but no one has been able to prove that NDEs demonstrate that consciousness endures after biological death.

> Could materialism go the way of Newtonian Physics?

But Newtonian physics has not been rejected, it is still useful at medium scales, only it is not correct at other scales.
Also,one thing is facts, another is theories: Newton's physics, the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics, they are theories, if consciousness lasts after bodily death, it is a fact, not a theory, although someone could develop a theory that explains it.

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