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Similar to "The Fourfold Vision" Jane Sherwood, author of "The Country Beyond".

I think your analysis is essentially correct. It makes sense based on what we know.

However, it does imply that there is a moral element that is critical to the universe - or else there'd be no "judgment". I'm ok wit that and actually heavily lean toward thinking it's true. But that further implies that the universe is not just information. More like information + something else (Love? Pure energy? Ecstasy?). Like the judgment is all about what you did to contribute to spiritual advancement via more better info and Love, etc. We know the Being of light sometimes evaluates people against such a standard during NDEs. True, the being is forgiving. The forgiveness may be because the visitor still has a "body of vitality".

Eric wrote, "We know the Being of light sometimes evaluates people against such a standard during NDEs. True, the being is forgiving. The forgiveness may be because the visitor still has a 'body of vitality'."

I doubt the vehicle of vitality has much to do with it, since deceased persons, communicating through mediums, describe the Judgment in the same terms (comprehensive, fair, and loving). And those people presumably had shed the vehicle of vitality before undergoing the Judgment.

My belief is that the Judgment is carried out by the Higher Self, which naturally will be patient and forgiving toward the lower self — which is, after all, intimately connected to it.

Incidentally, I don’t like the term "vehicle of vitality," which sounds awkward to me. Crookall uses this term to make clear that this entity is not so much a body as an envelope. He suggests that the discarded vehicle of vitality, persisting for a while on its own, may be mistaken for an actual spirit by those who perceive it psychically. Essentially it’s the same concept as the "astral shell," which is said to be cast off and to continue for a time as an empty form. Some ghosts that engage in mindless repetitive actions may also be discarded astral shells.

As an additional note, it’s interesting that many primitive religions, such as the religion of the Greeks in the Homeric Age, see the afterlife as a shadowy place inhabited by confused, lethargic spirits. This corresponds to the initial stage of death, when the Soul Body, still enshrouded by the astral shell (vehicle of vitality), exists in a dreamlike or sleepy state of confusion. Since this is the first phase of postmortem existence, and the phase that is closest to earthly conditions, it’s the one most likely to produce communications and other evidence. Unfortunately these communications can give the impression that postmortem survival is a dreary affair, which was the view of those ancients who believed in Hades or Sheol.

There's something about the idea of development and growth that you seems odd to me. In an eternal reality, wouldn't we have actualized the highest state of progress possible in the absolute present?

I sometimes wonder if all of this is just for the sake of experience. A huge playful exercise. Within that exercise some beings develop a narrative of progress, development, the hero's journey. Maybe we can merge with the mind of god, but I suspect not long after we would restart the adventure again. Some people might want to hold out reincarnation and merger with all that is, and hang somewhere in the middle, individuated.

The only arguement I can see that would explain the idea of progress is that two of the profound forces in nature are will and representation. The will of individuated beings to be able to do more, for more "power", might be related with "love", or understanding, or realizing the interconnectedness of all phenomena.

When mystics, oobers, nders, come back and say its all part of a plan, I suspect that its not an actual plan, it's just that everything that is, is an expression of reality, and as such there's nothing else it should be.

"In an eternal reality, wouldn't we have actualized the highest state of progress possible in the absolute present?"- Ollie

Can you learn to drive a car without actually getting in the car, getting behind the wheel, and driving it? Is it enough to read a book about or watch a video or even watch someone else drive the car? No, the only way to learn how to drive a car is by actually getting behind the wheel and driving it.

Can you learn to ride a bicycle without actually getting on the bicycle and riding it? Can you watch someone ride a bike and then say "I know how to ride a bike?" Nope, same thing. The only way to learn how to ride a bike is by actually getting on the bike and riding it.

Or how about flying an airplane? Can you learn to fly a plane without actually sitting in the pilot's seat and flying it? Nope again. The only way to learn how to fly a plane is by getting in the plane, sitting in the pilot's seat, and flying it. Reading a book or manual or watching someone else to it is not sufficient.

Or how about making love to another person? If you've watched a movie of someone making love can you say that you know how it feels to make love to another person? Nope, you don't know. The only way to really know what it is like to make love to another person is by actually doing it. Finding someone that is willing to make love to you and doing it.

The same thing is true of being pure consciousness, "soul stuff", and knowing what it is like to be inside a body and be in control of it, the parameters of that body, what "out there" looks and feels like. If you are soul stuff and have never been in a body you wouldn't have a clue what it was like to be in a body and be in control of it. And if you were watching that body move around you wouldn't be able to understand what was going on, or what that person felt, as they lived their lives.

The alternative would be to be pure consciousness, filling space, but never knowing what it was like to be alive, inside a body and limited to that body, to eat or taste food, to smell, to touch, to see, or to hear. There are certain things that the only way to really know them is you have to experience them. Just reading a book or hearing about or even watching someone else do it is not enough.

That is why a newborn baby kicks around and stuffs things in its mouth and is intent on experiencing the world around it. It is "tasting the world" in order to learn all the physical things it came here to learn.

This Earth life is a school and we simply learn here the things here that can't be learned in heaven. We are soul stuff having a physical experience. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn regardless of who we are, or where we live, or even what we believe. Belief is irrelevant. We are here simply to live, that's all, just live.

I think I understand your comment and I agree that what we all experience in this reality might be a "huge playful exercise." I would want to emphasize the playful part of it as I think from a higher perspective a life experience is meant to be fun. Now I know it doesn't sometimes feel like it is fun when one is in the middle of it, but looking on from the outside perhaps it is just a gigantic play with many characters all acting out their parts, playing their roles with all of its joys and woes, feeling the eternal drama of 'good' and 'evil' and having the experience of being alive in physical form.

Over and above all of that perhaps there is a spiritual evolution going on. That is, undeveloped spirits start low on the evolutionary scale, slowly develop through a myriad of other forms until the spirit achieves some status of ultimate spiritual development, perhaps by merging with the mind of god as you put it. Those that accept the theory of reincarnation or transmigration of souls will understand this.

On the spiritual levels there seems to be great light and overwhelming joy and love and though there may be a momentary experience at darker levels for some entities, it seems that all spirit entities have an opportunity, if they will accept it, to rise above the darkness into the light and a blissful existence.

I think that we have the propensity to take life too seriously. - AOD

"Incidentally, I don’t like the term "vehicle of vitality," which sounds awkward to me."

I was thinking of it being the same thing as what the Chinese say they are working on with acupuncture. It seems that it serves a similar function. Of course it might not be. It is vague terminology after all.

"My belief is that the Judgment is carried out by the Higher Self, which naturally will be patient and forgiving toward the lower self — which is, after all, intimately connected to it. "

I'm inclined to agree, generally. However, it seems that there are some who's deeds and/or thoughts were so abhorrent - even to their own higher self - that they hide from this "judgment". which seems to cause problems like being earth bound or stuck in hellish regions of the astral. OBE experiencers have seen them there as have some NDErs. We know that there are vicious poltergeists and spirits that possess people. So there must be exceptions to the functioning of the judgment process. I was just trying to work with Crookall's explanation to see how such deviations might occur.

\\AOD says, "Ollie, I think I understand your comment and I agree that what we all experience in this reality might be a "huge playful exercise."//

Sometimes not so playful or fun. When we lived in East Tennessee I used to drive to Middlesboro, Kentucky sometime, which is very near Cumberland Gap, because it was beautiful up there. But that's not the point of this post.

There was a family up there in Middlesboro, KY that had been in a house trailer fire and had been badly burned. One time I was shopping at the Kroger Grocery store and that family were in there shopping. The little boys hair was gone and their faces were badly burned and scarred and the mother was also horrendously burned. I felt so bad for them. The little boys heads had cracks or lesions in skin that had not healed completely and it looked so painful. Life can be unfair and unkind and painful and devastating and downright torturous.

In fact most of us here in the western developed world don't have a clue what it is like to struggle the way that a lot of third world people struggle. There are people in Asia that struggle to earn enough money to buy a bag of rice to eat in a day. They earn a few dollars and they spend the majority of their income on food whereas the average person in the United States spends less than 16% of their income on food.

All the spiritual stuff that we say this life is about? Most people can't afford the luxury of sitting around staring at their belly button contemplating why we are here or what life is about. They are too busy just trying to survive.

Whatever we are here for it has to be universal which means it applies to everyone at every time, and it has to be taught holistically which means that the lessons are embedded in our everyday lives, while we just go about the business of living, and there has to be an understandable reason that makes sense "why", and those lessons have to be imprinted on us without us even realizing that we are learning something - because the majority of people lead lives of quiet desperation and don't sit around mediating about spiritual things.

But what we do all experience and "learn" is duality and separation, time and space, being in a body - and limited by that body, the parameters of that body and how to control it, and make memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe. All of which are things that can't be learned in heaven because the physics of heaven (as described by numerous near death experiencers) is very different from the physics that we normally experience here.

"There is no distance here. So time does not exist." Excerpt from Mark H's NDE

"I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere." Excerpt from Carl Turner's transcendental experience

Four bodies sounds like a bit of over-complication to me. Having a body and a soul sounds reasonable enough without adding more that we have yet to confirm in any way.

Well, Crookall was trying to work out an organizational scheme that would make sense of the various accounts. What he found was that people reporting leaving the physical body, often being veiled or befogged for a while, then achieving clarity, and later ascending to a state of still greater clarity.

So he posited four bodies — physical body, aura or astral shell, soul body, and spirit body.

Although somewhat complicated, this formulation does make sense of many disparate phenomena, such as the confusion of earthbound spirits, apparitions that seem mechanical and lifeless, the two different life reviews, the tunnel, the silver cord, the often confused or surreal accounts of astral projectors (still enshrouded in the astral shell), ectoplasm (seen as drawn from the astral shell/aura), the difficulty of spirit communications (because the soul body must enveil itself in the medium's aura, restricting lucidity), the idea that the frequency of "vibrations" increases as each body is shed, and other things.

I suspicion the only thing that is real is consciousness. And that everything else is just a projection from one universal consciousness.

Excerpt from Michelle M's NDE description, "I remember understanding the others here, as if the others here were a part of me too. As if, all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was - gosh this is so hard to explain - it was as if we were all the same. As if, consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be as if all things are all different parts of the same body, so to speak."

"... apparitions that seem mechanical and lifeless." Yes, there seems to be a lot of anecdotes about such things. I'm a fan of 19th century English ghost stories and these mechanical apparitions seem to figure in a lot of them. The opposite are the interactive apparitions who appear conscious and alive (in sense). Perhaps the "four bodies" theory does explain this.

Also, this probably belongs in Michael's Tunnel post, but it also struck me that in so many NDEs, the directive of "You must go back, it's not your time, etc." is very prevalent, it's almost a cliche. Now how exactly if NDEs are hallucinations could so many people be experiencing something so similar?

Michael Talbot in his book The Holographic says these repetitive apparitions are holographic projections from the collective unconscious. As are things like Sasquatch, Yeti, Marian visions, UFO's, etc. He has some interesting stories in his book The Holographic Universe about people seeing visions of the past, like a park in France, and one time a guy stepped out his door and saw a road that had existed in the past. It has something to do with evoking emotion and stored collective memories.

Maybe use of the term "body" is appropriate. If the above linked story is not a hoax, then something is solid enough to set off security cam sensors.

That’s an interesting observation Kathleen. Almost all of the NDEs I have read and especially those reported on video say exactly that. “It’s not your time!” - AOD

I got to thinking Kathleen. If an NDE were a dream or hallucination generated by the subconscious mind or a dying brain then why do many of those who report an NDE say that they were told " It is not your time. You have to go back."

Now there is a lot to think about in that statement.

When I am dreaming I have never had anyone in the dream tell me that I have to wake up, that I can't continue dreaming or sleeping. I always just 'wake up' with no direction from anyone. I just 'pop' awake. No one tells me I have to "wake up" or anything like that, I just wake up! Why doesn't an NDE-er just 'wake up' without so much folderal about it.

NDE-ers often say how uncomfortable it was getting back in their body. Why should that be if they were just dreaming or hallucinating since people are already in their body when they dream?

If NDE-ers are told they have to "go back" then they must have come from somewhere and will have to travel back to whence they came. That doesn't seem very dreamlike to me especially when so many NDE-ers say that and no one is told that in a true dream. In dreams I have never had a sense of travelling anywhere and then having to go back, travelling through a tunnel and then struggling to get back into my body, with a loss of lightness or freedom of being. In dreams I am 'just there' and then somewhere else or 'not there'. I don't have a sense of travelling.

And why do some people argue about going back, saying they want to stay. I can't recall that I have ever argued with any dream phantasm about waking up or not waking up.

And it's not their time to do what? Not their time to die? Not their time to go forward? What would that mean in a dream;"It's not my time?"

Very interesting I should say! - AOD


There is some critical commentary of Robert Crookall by Simeon Edmunds in his book "Spiritualism: A Critical Survey".

I was wondering if you had chance to review this book at some point. Edmunds was skeptical of most paranormal phenomena (about 98% he considered fraudulent in mediumship) but his book should not be confused with debunking zealots.

Thanks, Matthew. I haven’t heard of that book or that author. 98% of mediumship is fraudulent? That sounds like way too high an estimate if he means consciously, intentionally fraudulent. Even M. Lamar Keene, author of The Psychic Mafia and a former fraudulent medium himself, said that many of the fakes were self-deluded and really believed they had special powers. Ray Hyman, the famous skeptic, has said that self-delusion among psychics is probably at least as common as outright fraud.

As for Crookall, I certainly don’t think he’s above criticism. He interlards his modern examples with Bible quotations, which he interprets in spiritualist terms. He relies, in part, on the writings of Max Freedom Long, who claimed he had been told details of the original religion of the Hawaiian islands; Long's work has been severely criticized, and it's possible that the "native traditions" he wrote about were his own invention. For some of his anecdotes about astral projection and NDEs, Crookall draws on letters sent to him by correspondents interested in his work; the contents of those letters may have been inspired or at least influenced by Crookall's previous writings. I’m sure other criticisms are possible.

But then, any book can be picked apart if one has a desire to do so. One can easily disregard the Bible quotes, the Hawaiian material, and the anecdotes conveyed in letters, and still find a wealth of information from other sources. The main thrust of Crookall's work seems valid and important to me.

\\"Ray Hyman, the famous skeptic, has said that self-delusion among psychics is probably at least as common as outright fraud." - Michael Prescott//

The thing about it is that it doesn't have to be "either all true or all lies." Even a reading by any individual medium can be made up of a little bit of psychic stuff with a whole lot of filler. And with a whole lot of New Agey goop that sounds ridiculous if you really think about it.

I heard and saw a Church of Christ preacher one time hold up the bible during a sermon and say "It's either all true or all lies!" I was nineteen years old at the time so I didn't think much about it at the time but now that I'm a whole lot older, and hopefully wiser, I realize that there can be a kernel of truth buried deep beneath a whole lot of embellishment, told out of sequence, borrowed from other religions, and New Age belief. But it's not either all true or all lies. Some if can be true and impressive.

Some of it can be good stuff and some of it can be added to stretch out the time of the reading; make it seem like it is more than it is. Glimpses of eternity which unfortunately becomes buried in a whole lot of nonsense.

AOD, yes, there are so many similarities in NDEs:

1) Subject is told they must go back
2) Subject gets very upset because they don't wish to go back,as they are so happy
3) Subject often sees their dead body from above and doesn't "want to get back into that"
4) Subject is made to review their life, but in a gentle non-judgmental way
5) Subject often sees how their actions affected another person for good or bad, or how they made others feel
6) Intense feeling of freedom and joy; any feeling of bodily discomfort is completely gone; some subjects who are blind report being able to see
7) Subject sees intense light and brightness, like nothing they've ever experienced
8) Subject encounters deceased, welcoming relatives, friends, and pets, all of whom look healthy and younger
9) Subject sees a tunnel with a bright light at the end of it; some say they travel above earth into space among the stars and planets before entering the tunnel
10) Many but not all subjects encounter Jesus or angels; others encounter welcoming persons
11) Subject may find themself in a beautiful summer-time garden, or in a beautiful white city

There are probably more, but these are the ones I know, and are repeated in many NDEs.

\\"10) Many but not all subjects encounter Jesus or angels;" - Kathleen//

I'm pretty certain people have these NDEs and come back from them and then sit and stew on what happened to them. They see a light and they say there was a person in that light. Or the light seemed to be conscious and was full of love. If they were raised in a Christian culture, or in the case of Betty Eadie who was raised in a Christian orphanage, they get it fixed in their mind that the Light must have been Jesus Christ. How do they know it was Jesus? Because the Light had all the attributes that Jesus was supposed to have.

Now I keep talking about no separation and oneness and connectedness. What does that mean? It means that yes, the Light was Jesus Christ, but it was also every other religious figure, and in fact, every other consciousness in the Universe all rolled into one. It was not only Jesus but it was also me, you, my mom and dad and sisters and brother, living and dead, and maybe even some aliens from Alpha Centauri. So if you asked the Light if it was Jesus the answer would be "yes, I'm Jesus", but it is also you and everyone you know, and will know, and every President, and Adolph Hitler and his buddies, and "all that is" because in holographic film everything is infinitely interconnected and nothing is separate from anything else.

So yes, they saw angels and religious figures, because those angels and religious figures are based on someone who lived and have been deified and turned into gods. Or like Emmanuel Swedenborg says, angels were once people - which means that if I see someone on the other side they might look like an angel but they could also be my mom or dad or one of my aunts or uncles or grandparents....

Excerpt from Mellen Benedict's NDE:
"The Light kept changing into different figures, like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, mandalas, archetypal images and signs. I asked the Light, "What is going on here? Please, Light, clarify yourself for me. I really want to know the reality of the situation." I cannot really say the exact words, because it was sort of telepathy. The Light responded. The information transferred to me was that your beliefs shape the kind of feedback you are getting before the Light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff."

Here is an interesting quote from Francis Grierson, early 20th century musician, writer, medium and spiritist:

“Certainly no man can call himself a thinker who refuses to do battle with the mysterious forces which encompass us around about as palpable as the air we breathe. If there were no mysteries there would be no such thing as science, and if book-learning contained all practical wisdom there would be no such thing as intuition. Everything is like everything else. There is but one source, but an infinite variety of appearances. The soul of the universe is one --- its manifestations are without limit in variation. Phenomena produce mystery; the whole conscious world is engaged in the unraveling of mystery.”- AOD


Interesting and informative post!

It seems to me that sometimes there is speculation by those outside the Afterlife (i.e., we as yet living) who come up with some very reasonable speculation that is nevertheless not corroborated much by ADCs, etc. Let me put it another way. If we are correct about these things, one would end up having to conclude that we understand the nature and structure of the Afterlife better than those who are actually in it.

One example is the concept of the Higher Self. I don't know of any ADCs or NDEs (though my knowledge is very limited) that *directly* say, "Then the Higher Self appeared, did XYZ." Nor do NDErs seem to be indicating something that is equivalent to the concept of the Higher Self but are merely lacking the same or equivalent terminology. Wouldn't it be odd if they have experienced the "Being of Light" but we ended up understanding such a being better than they did?

Don't get me wrong. The concept of the Higher Self is nearly universal in current New Age thought. I don't reject it. I rather like it. But I do find it odd that it is not reported by people who have actually experienced the Afterlife to some degree or other.

Crookall's speculations seem similar to me. They are very reasonable, but they don't seem directly attested to by the actual experiencers.

Which is not to say that we can puzzle together a full picture of the Afterlife from NDEs and ADCs. As yet, we cannot. But I am conflicted as to what the roles and weights should be in figuring out the Big Picture of testimony and philosophy.

The Light encompasses "all that is." That is the nature of holographic film. Each piece contains the whole. The physics of "heaven" is very different from what we normally experience here. This place, this holographic projection, is the "place of separation." That is what we experience here, lots and lots of it.

I am often amazed at how effective internet message boards are for experiencing separation. People will sit and argue for days about pretty much everything. I sometimes like to say that duality and separation seem to be inherent and inescapable properties of our Universe. We don't have to go looking for them, they will find us all on their own.

But NDE'ers say the other side felt like home. So when they experienced this strange feeling of oneness and connectedness it didn't seem wrong. Something instantly happens to us when we make contact with that light. It is like our consciousness is "plugged into" the other side so all that love, connectedness and oneness, that 360 vision, more colors than normal, communicating telepathically, access to "all knowledge", lack of time and space, etc. doesn't seem strange. It feels like home.

Sometimes atheist/skeptic/materialists will sometimes make snarky belittling comments about heaven like "don't we get bored there?" Or, they'll make a comment about what about babies who die, or something similar, and it's because they haven't read enough and don't understand that the physics of heaven is very different from here. They can't comprehend time and space being different from where we are now, or the implications of being totally connected and one. Children will have just as much access to that universal collective consciousness which is so often described in NDEs as an adult that has crossed over.

The things that separate us in this life simply don't exist on the other side; and as far as being "bored" on the other side? They should have read Mark Horton's NDE when it was still posted because that didn't sound boring to me. How can one be bored when we can be anywhere and anytime in the Universe, and possibly the multiverse, and experience everything about that time or place? Simply by focusing our consciousness on another part of the hologram we will be "seeing" and full experiencing "all that is" somewhere else in the Universe?

The link to Mark Horton's NDE no longer works. There are several links to people describing Mark Horton's NDE but his own personal long description of his NDE seems to be no longer posted anywhere on the internet.

Matt wrote, "I don't know of any ADCs or NDEs (though my knowledge is very limited) that *directly* say, 'Then the Higher Self appeared, did XYZ.'"

I don't know if any of them use those words, but the Seth communications seem to say as much.

One of the points made by Crookall is that the vast majority of postmortem communications come from people who are still in a realm of thought-forms and illusion, to varying degrees. Some are enveiled by the "vehicle of vitality" (energy body), while others inhabit the so-called Summerland environment. The deceased F.W.H. Myers, purportedly channeled in Geraldine Cummins' books, called Summerland the "plane of illusion" and compared it to the mythological land of the Lotus Eaters (who were perpetually entranced because of the mind-altering effects of the lotus plants).

One of the more famous – or infamous – claims made by a postmortem communicator is found in the book "Raymond," by Sir Oliver Lodge. The deceased Raymond claims that he and his friends in the afterlife enjoy whiskey and cigars. This statement was widely ridiculed when the book came out, and continues to be ridiculed to this day. And yet there is enough evidential material in the book to make it difficult to dismiss outright. The solution may be that the recently deceased Raymond was still inhabiting a world of thought-forms based on his earthly memories. Indeed, later communications attributed to the same source say as much.

In short, we may be wrong to expect deep insights from most communicators. The majority of them are still in a transitional state and may be more confused than we think. As they progress higher, they see things more clearly, but they are also much less prone to communicate with us. At least that's one way of looking at it.

Mellen Benedict had rather Buddhist leanings so he interpreted his NDE experience in light of his buddhist beliefs. Which does use the words "higher self."

We interpret everything we have experienced in life in light of the culture in which we are raised. People who have NDEs come back from the other side with all these experiences and they are confused and so they sit and stew on it, and roll it over and over in their minds, and it takes time to process all that information that they saw and felt and experienced but the only thing they have to make sense of it is who they are, which includes everything they formerly believed.

We do the exact same thing when we read the New Testament which was written two thousand years ago but then it gets filtered through our 21st Century brains and who knows if what we believe is anywhere near or close to what a 1st Century Christian believed? Modern Western Christianity may be light years away from what 1st Century Christians believed?

Art, it might be what you wrote, that we see what we expect to see. Jane Roberts wrote that this is how it is in one of her Seth books.

On the other hand, adamant atheists have reported that they have encountered Jesus. I also came upon the story of a Muslim Palestinian fighter who says Jesus visited him in jail and he subsequently became a Christian convert. He didn't have an NDE, but wow, he really was convinced that Jesus came to him.

Of course, not everyone encounters him, even Christians.

And then of course there are the few - who knows how many - who have experienced hell in their NDE. One interesting hellish NDE involved a physician who stated he had been "living fast," "dating a lot of women" and "partying." His "transgressions" seemed a little tame in the great scheme of sin, but who knows? Those who do a lot of drugs and alcohol often report hellish NDEs.

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