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Julie since you have listened to a good many Leslie Flint tapes, have you ever run across any that recorded a spirit that no one knew and that subsequently upon investigation was found to be a real person? Were any facts provided that were not already known to Flint, Woods and Greene that were subsequently verified? - AOD

I think that kind of analysis is better performed by others who have made a serious study of this material. As I think I've said here before, I trust my gut about these matters. And what most impresses me is when someone describes a paranormal experience that mirrors one of my own, or information is given that proves strangely prophetic or, as with the Flint tapes, certain, nuggets of information are relayed that coincide exactly with unexpressed thoughts of my own.

When I meet someone for the first time, I don't ask questions about their background or status, I use my intuition about their character. In short, I don't show my workings in the margin. Like intuition itself, I can't tell you how it works, or how it arrives at the truth. But, somehow, it always does.

"BTW - re Leslie Flint, I have listened to almost all of his recordings, and some are truly astonishing. I may relate some of this at a later date." - Smithy

Julie B:I hope you do. I've been on all sides of the Leslie Flint debate and finally settled in the same place as you. It's a most intriguing subject.

Yes, it is intriguing and I made some study of it, already in the seventies.

First of all, Flint was known as a truly honest man, who could not be caught cheating at all. His house was open to everyone, and in the rooms adjacent to the one where he held his sessions, never ever were there found microphones, or hidden cabinets... whatever.

Moreover, he could perform anywhere without much physical preparations. He also performed fully gagged and tied up to any chair.

Anyone could come to him, but there was no guarantee that sessions would be successful in the sense that some "spirit voice" would come through at all times. He was then always pretty embarrassed when the session did not produce voices.

Another thing: there were sessions during which there were more than one voice coming through whereas at the same time Flint himself was speaking, i.e. the outside voice was interfering with his own voice.

One of my fellow country men, Mr Michael Rogge, went up to him for a Dutch radio programme, and he was accompanied by a person whose brother had passed away some time ago. Flint knew nothing of this person, who during the session asked his deceased brother to come through. This brother did not come through "physically" i.e. via his voice, but apparently Flint's control Micky acted as a stand-in. Micky then told the brother all sorts of facts about the deceased, who Flint could not in any way had known about. There were about 20 statements, four of them were general, but sixteen were very very specific, that is, only known to the visiting brother.

As for the quality of the voices: critics have claimed that Flint was nothing but a good ventriloquist. Problem: the voices kept coming also when Flint was fully gagged and, as an extra precaution, had a mouthful of colored water in his mouth.

Mr Rogge, the Dutch investigator, had also invited the most prominent Dutch ventriloguist at the time, and asked him to do the same "trick" as Flint: gagged and his mouth full of water. The best this highly accomplished ventriloguist could do was: mmmmmmmmm....

Then as regards the sound of the voices, True, the male voices seemed to be close to Flint's own voice, but it was a different matter altogether when females came through. These voices were definitey female. The most striking one was the supposed voice of the late Dame Ellen Terry, perhaps the most famous Shakespeare actress of the first quarter of the twentieth century. Her voice had an exquisit quality and that was fully borne during these sessions. A former friend of Ellen Terry could testify that the voice that came through most definitely did resemble the real-life voice of Ellen Terry.

Okay, I think I have said enough for the time being.

Regards to all,

Smithy

1. Reportedly all of the Leslie Flint voices were produced by way of an “ectoplasmic voice box” extruded from Mr. Flint supplemented with ectoplasm reportedly obtained from the sitters.
2. Reportedly ectoplasm cannot exist in the light.
3. All of Leslie Flint’s séances were held in the dark. If they were held in the light the ‘ectoplasmic voice box’ could not exist.
4. Over 500 recordings of the voices were made by George Woods and Betty Greene and are preserved for perusal, given freely to the world, according to Ms. Greene and Mr. Woods.
5. Since all of the recordings of Leslie Flint’s voices were made by George Woods and Betty Greene, they were present at each séance when the recordings were made.
6. George Woods and Betty Greene were reported and admitted to be mediums.

Perhaps most of you have already heard Betty Greene explain séances with Leslie Flint. If you have not, the link below may provide some enlightening information for you. - AOD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JD75bYjs_4

Thanks, Smithy. Absolutely fascinating. One of the things that strikes me most forcibly about the sittings is that when dialogue occurs between the sitters and the voices it appears so very natural and uncontrived.

I've still some way to go before I can say I've heard all those tapes, but I'll get through them eventually. There's little doubt in my mind that Flint was the real deal - and I can hardly believe I've reached this stage of acceptance!

Julie: I've still some way to go before I can say I've heard all those tapes, but I'll get through them eventually. There's little doubt in my mind that Flint was the real deal - and I can hardly believe I've reached this stage of acceptance!

Yes, Flint WAS the real deal, I agree.
Moreover, he was thoroughly tested by highly critical scientists, who could not find fault. As a matter of fact, I have on tape a spoken testimony by one of them, where this man unequivally declares that what he had observed and recorded could not be explained away.

Another remarkable thing: indeed, it was all in the dark. However, at some occasions one applied a very weak darkred light. As soon as that light was switched on, the voices were still there, but markably weaker. As soon as the red light was switched off, the voices came back to their full strength.

As for ectoplasm, there is a infra-red photograph showing ectoplasm forming on the shoulder of Flint.

A few years ago I had an email conversation with one of the prominent members of the (highly critical) London SPR. She took part in a few sittings with Flint, and said that at one occasion one of the voices sounded right over her head, which could not have been if the voice had emanated from Flint's mouth. He sat several feet away from her, and never ever moved away from his chair.

Flint was genuine, everyone still doubting that has either not studied the facts, or is the type of pseudo-skeptic that goes on shouting: it cannot be therefore it is not!


Cheers - Smithy

Amos, I don't understand the relevance of the points you make above.

I believe Amos is suggesting that George Woods and Betty Greene were in cahoots with Flint. If so, this could explain the female voices that were sometimes heard in the dark (Betty was speaking), as well as the occasional overlapping voices (more than one of the three were speaking at once) and Flint's apparent ability to produce voices while gagged or otherwise prevented from speaking (George or Betty spoke for him).

I'm assuming George and Betty weren't gagged or controlled during the seances.

I don't know enough about Flint to assess this theory, but it's interesting.

Yes, I understood that to be the implication, Michael, Amos has said as much on Robert's Paranormalia blog.

What I can't understand is how Greene and Woods could possibly have behaved so at non-recorded sittings in which they were not present and during which Flint was being investigated.

Ps. In case I'm still not making myself clear:

I can't understand how Amos thinks the investigators wouldn't have uncovered such crude and obvious trickery. Hence I don't understand the relevance of the suggestion he keeps making, here and elsewhere. I feel he's casting aspersions without any credible explanation as to how such trickery might have escaped the notice of numerous investigators. It's such an obvious and likely suspicion . . . . . . isn't it? :/

MP: I'm assuming George and Betty weren't gagged or controlled during the seances.

No, they were not.

Besides, Flint's performances also took place without them, when he was in the USA where he did seances in the presence of the scientists I talked about.

He also performed without them when tested by the SPR.

Any suggestion that George and Betty plaid such mean tricks is simply downright mean (and stupid when one knows the facts)

Smithy

Just think for a minute what we have to believe if we think that the direct voices of Leslie Flint were from disembodied spirits.

First of all we have to believe that there ARE disembodied spirits and if we grant that, then we have to believe that they are able to enter into physical reality and construct a 'voice box' from ectoplasm extruded from Flint and his sitters; an ectoplasmic voice box, (a microphone to the spirit world as Betty Greene said) through which they can carry on a rapid-fire human conversation with the sitters and through which more that one spirit can talk at the same time. .

We therefore have to believe that there is such a thing as 'ectoplasm' (little or no evidence exists that ectoplasm is real) and that even though Betty Green stated that it was similar to the human voice box, a "voice box" is in no way similar to a microphone. We have to believe that the ectoplasmic voice box could, by itself, produce clipped British speech without a tongue, teeth, lips, nasal cavities and lungs.

If the 'voice box' is an invention, a sort of microphone of the spirit world dissimilar to the human larynx, then why haven't the spirits maintained voice boxes all over the globe with other mediums to communicate with human beings. ( Just think what an important invention that would be!)

We have to believe that even though many or most of the voices have a British accent, especially the male voices, that that fact has to be discounted.

Betty Greene said that 'thoughts' were used to produce vibrations through the voice box but apparently spirit thoughts also produce heavy breathing as is heard in some of the Flint tapes. And, we have to believe Greene's explanation of why voices don't sound like their human counterparts.

The bottom line is that we have to believe that Greene and Woods were honest and trustworthy and would not lie or fabricate the Flint tapes even though they both were invested ( Woods 40 years; Greene 25 years) in providing evidence of the paranormal. (Greene and Wood are seldom mentioned in the tests conducted on Leslie Flint. ) We have to believe that there is evidence that Betty Greene was not the source of the female voices and that George Woods (or Leslie Flint) was not a source of the male voices.

It is true that I consider myself a skeptic but not a pseudo-skeptic or a Skeptic. I also don't consider myself to be gullible and addlepated and I try to guard against a 'will to believe' as we all should. - AOD

Amos 'we' don't have to believe anything. We each make up our own minds.

Anyway, you still haven't explained how we are supposed to believe that everyone who investigated Flint was a gullible pushover with not nearly the detective skills of someone such as yourself pronouncing on matters decades after the events took place.

I'm sure there are those among us who believe the Patience Worth material to be nothing more than an intellectually-frustrated young woman's fancy. Does that entitle them to call you a gullible old fool?

JULIE!!
Believe what you will. I am not calling anybody anything. - AOD

Amos - as for everyone else here, you are entitled to your opinion.

But your opinion is dead-wrong.

As Julie and I already pointed out, the voices also appeared (one, or more, overlapping each other and even Flints own voice) when Wood and Green were NOT there.

The voices also appeared when, under the strictest conditions imposed by an unbelieving SPR, Flint was gagged, and forced to keep a mouthful of red-colored water in his mouth, and on top of that had a wide sticky plaster put across his lips.(BTW, Green and Wood were not there!)

And... also tied up to his chair, and thus was unable to move his arms.(Personally I think that amounts to sheer torture.)

And then you still think that Flint could cheat? Gimme a break!

Though, even after this very strict test, the SPR was not satisfied. Why? The plaster over his mouth had on one side moved something like a 16th of an inch... How could that happen?

Simple: that plaster caused itching, and thus Flint reacted with twisting his mouth which made the plaster move very slightly. So, according to the SPR the test was not entirely okay. This made Flint, normally a very easy-going man, so angry that he walked out on the SPR and never wanted to do tests with them again. I cannot blame him.

But okay - you apparently cannot believe that no cheating occurred. A pity.

Smithy

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