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I think that language is inadequate to describe phenomena generated by the spirit world that intersect with the earth plane and may at times be misleading. If one grants that there either is or may be a spirit world (or an alternate reality; or multiple universes) then is it not possible that spirits in those alternate realities just may want to pursue their special interests, perhaps interests they had while incarnated on earth. If their efforts were detected even in the slightest way, how would they be described. Would it be said that it was the work of The Devil, daemons, poltergeists, ---or fairies?

As a biologist it would please me to no end as a spirit to be able to participate in the development of new species of plants or animals on earth, To be allowed that creative activity would be my mansion in the spirit world. Out of my love for all life I would rejoice in manipulating the genetic codes and micro-environments of earth to accommodate the special needs of---dare I say it---God's creatures. If one might catch me in my activities would I be called a 'fairy' or would the observation be more acceptable if it were called "natural selection". Who really knows what is going on behind the scenes of reality.

I can only hope that I will not spend much time sitting on a cloud and playing a harp. (Bruce, do you suppose there are pianos in heaven as I would rather play the piano than a harp.)

Of course now I would never say in public that I believed in 'fairies' but in fact perhaps I really do, only they are not the 'fairies' of Bill or the Cottingley fairies of Arthur Conan Doyle. - AOD

Fred Bloggs: Many thanks for the heads up on Cynthia Bourgeault's 'The Wisdom Jesus'. I've started to read this and so far I am really impressed. Cheers Simon

The claim about Jesus's similarity to Osiris is easier to nitpick than the one claiming similarity between the figures of Jesus and Dionysus. Read The Bacchae by Euripides. Anyone familiar with the Jesus story will experience a shiver of recognition at those scenes in the play where Dionysus, who has taken human form -- and who is the son of Zeus and a virgin mother and whose followers identify his body with bread and his blood with wine -- is brought before the high sheriff Pentheus, who is unaware he is speaking to an incarnate deity. The setting, the back-and-forth of the dialogue, the irony experienced by the audience, all evoke the NT portrayal of Jesus brought before Pilate. It's just that The Bacchae was written around 400 BCE.

Another note: The distinguished religious studies scholar -- and lapidary prose stylist -- Jon Dominic Crossan published eloquent books about the historical Jesus in the early 90s. Crossan's Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography distills a wealth info about, and insight on, these matters in the space of 250 pages. The work of the Jesus Seminar, guided originally by Robert Funk, is also important here.

Bill,

"Rational people can be trusted. Not a man who claims to have seen fairies, or a man who wrote a book claiming to have travelled back in time."

So what about all these 'rational' scientists who claim there are infinite Multiverses for which they have precisely zero evidence, or who insist that our own universe was caused by a fluctuation of nothing, or who propose that consciousness is secreted by meat when the latter reaches a certain level of complexity?

Truly, when I hear Skeptics railing against UFOs and fairies whilst upholding Multiverse theory and materialism, it seems like I'm listening to a group of inmates in a lunatic asylum, declaiming to a second group of inmates that "MY delusion is better than YOUR delusion"!

Rationalism is but one way of interacting with reality. It does NOT have priority over all other methods of human understanding. Check out neuroscientist Jill Bolte Taylor's 'TED' lecture on YouTube, for an account of how her view of reality changed when a stroke shut down the 'rational' left side of her brain.

Also, the notion that trustworthiness follows on from rationality is remarkably naive. Con artists and fraudsters appeal to people's internal sense of 'rationality' all the time; that's how they appear plausible.

Conversely, 'nutters' like Dowding, who claimed to have seen fairies (and why not, since they undoubtedly exist according to science - see my earlier comment) was entrusted with the entire air defences of Britain in 1940. (You can't put more trust in someone than that.)

He set up the most advanced and sophisticated air defence system in the world, and insisted - contrary to the 'rational' arguments of his opponents, that monoplane fighters with fixed armament were far superior to 'turret gunners' like the Defiant fighter.

Dowding was a far-sighted visionary - hence he was the right man in the right place at the right time, and without him the Battle of Britain would have been lost. I doubt that he would have achieved this had he been studying flow charts, or looking for support from the scientific consensus. If CSICOP had been around then, they'd have said "don't trust this man, he sees fairies. Give the air defence of Britain to a Skeptic".

Now THAT would have been a genuine delusion.

Someone wrote that no one in history sounds like Jesus--which is true. So that weighs on the side of his having actually existed.

To add on to what Saj is saying, Ulrich Mohrhoff has an interesting review of a book called The Paranormal and the Politics of Truth here:

http://anti-matters.org/articles/67/public/67-60-1-PB.pdf

Has anyone read it yet?

"Rational people can be trusted. Not a man who claims to have seen fairies, or a man who wrote a book claiming to have travelled back in time."

Oh Bill, you are so naive, gullible and innocent that it's quite touching to behold. Whoever got you to believe such foolishness? Rationality is the ONLY faculty that can be trusted? Do you have any EVIDENCE for that?

On the contrary, rationality is, and always has been, the servant of vision, intuition and imagination. History shows this, time and time again - read "The Master and His Emissary" by Iain McGilchrist.

Such was the case with Lord Dowding, the visionary who developed the world's first Integrated Air Defence System in 1940. The intuitive who disregarded the 'consensus view' of the aeronautics 'experts' who maintained that turret-equipped fighter planes were the way forward. The man whose sixth sense told him that the oft-repeated 'truth' that 'the bomber will always get through' was nonsense. But these 'experts' could point to their flow charts, log tables and micrometers and solemnly declare that what they maintained was 'rational'.

Now what would have happened if a rationality-obsessed left-brainer had been put in charge of Britain's air defences in 1940? Very simple - the Battle of Britain would have been lost. With that defeat, the British would have had to agree peace terms with Hitler. The USA would have had no base from which to attack 'fortress Europe'.

The world would now be dominated either by Nazi Germany or the Communist USSR. And you, Bill, would not be enjoying the liberties and freedom of speech that you've got today. This blog wouldn't exist.

So you see Bill, your current quality of life owes a lot to a man who believed in fairies. You may not think him trustworthy, but the British entrusted the defence of their nation to him in its darkest hour. And they were right to do so; thank God they weren't in the hands of Air Vice Marshall Mr. Spock!

In any case, as I've already told you, fairies DO exist according to Multiverse theory! If you accept Multiverse, you MUST accept fairies. Maybe they are highly advanced, can communicate across universes, and are interested in Earthly visionaries like Dowding - so who's to say he couldn't see them? (Alternatively you could reject Multiverse - it has the same evidence level as fairies, after all - and deal with the fine tuning!)

Thanks Matt,
I hope you continue to develop your skills as a medium. :^) - AOD

AOD, or, indeed, AOL; may I call you Amos?
Being an ex-pipesmoker myself, I would have thought that the most 'pungent' memory would have been of a pipe being smoked. Having said that, I was of the straight-from-the-pouch smoker myself and confess to never having used a humidor. If I did, then I guess that my smoker's sense of smell would have negated that pleasure anyway. Still, the issue of 'pleasant memories' is interesting and begs the question: was this a case of pleasant memories and nothing more? SC

AOD said:

"Bruce, do you suppose there are pianos in heaven as I would rather play the piano than a harp."

Hard to know, Amos, but I wouldn't take any chances if I were you. Sign up for one of my courses now before it's too late!

Fred Bloggs just proved the multiverse theory! Two versions of his post (one clearly from another universe) appeared in the comments. :>)

Bill,
Your'e beginning to sound like the Ghost who hi-jacked my fathers Astral Plane; my father being Stuart Certain: The Enfield Poltergeist.
Must read: 'Things You Can Do When Your'e Dead'
SC

"Two versions of his post (one clearly from another universe) appeared in the comments."

Yes, I saw that they were two different versions of the same basic post, but since I didn't know which one he preferred, I approved them both.

I'm guessing when the first post didn't show up after a while, he decided to post again.

Comment moderation can be slow, but any legit post will *eventually* be approved.

At this stage of our present civilization mediumship is much more art than science, owing both to its nature and the nature of science.

As much as I have enjoyed reading about attempts to investigate such things (some of which have been quite successful even if successful investigations have never succeeded in swaying scientific opinion, for a variety of reasons), that's several steps removed from the actual process or experience.

I've known and interacted with many amateur and professional mediums, clairvoyants, those who engage in trance communication, whether utilizing their voice or a computer keyboard, and even those who describe themselves as "witches."

Before any of this, I worked with a hypnotist, curious about my "past lives." At our initial session, he determined that I wasn't a good trance subject, so instead he would put me in a very light -- fully conscious -- trance and suggest that I'd have a relevant dream before our next session. He'd put me into a similar condition at the next session, and I would recall, vividly, the relevant dream (even though I had no memory of it during the week). We proceeded this way for some weeks. The final dream was packed with symbolic imagery, the meaning of some of it not clear for many years.

This experience and the later experiences mentioned were certainly closer than simply reading about investigations, but still somewhat removed.

Moving into a "hands on" position is about as close as anyone can get to this. You have, in my experience, various types of subjective impressions and sensations; successful communication requires a kind of translation (some are conscious of this, some not; I was always highly conscious of it, and also highly conscious of my own doubts about the process and my translation of inner symbolic imagery).

On the other hand, over the course of my life I've had a number of unusual and sometimes very powerful experiences. When I review these (and focusing on them tends to enable a kind of widened consciousness distinct from my usual egoic condition) it becomes clear that we are, collectively, still relatively clueless about the nature of our existence and the reality in which this takes place.

I'm hopeful this will change. "Proving" this stuff to most peoples' satisfaction is quite the challenge and may be a terrific waste of time and energy, at the moment, anyway. Proving it to your own satisfaction is another matter, something that I believe is entirely possible for anyone willing to invest the time and energy but this requires an openness to new ideas and experiences and a willingness to utilize one's "intuitive" abilities.

Bruce.
I have already had 8 years of piano. My dilemma is how do I take my grand piano with me when I go? - AOD

Simon,
Yes I am AOD on AOL; that is, amosdoyle@aol.com - AOD (on AOL) - :^)

Fred isn't off about saying fairies must exist in the multiverse somewhere if the MWI is true, it seems at least some scientists think this is true:

https://aeon.co/essays/take-your-brain-to-another-dimension-an-evil-one

"...Elvis lives, or that out there, among the flaming stars and planets, are unicorns, actual unicorns with horns on their noses. There’s even weirder stuff, too: devils and demons; gods and nymphs; places where Hitler won the Second World War, or where there was no war at all. Places where the most outlandish fantasies come true. A weirdiverse, if you will. Most bizarre of all, scientists are now seriously discussing the possibility that our universe is a fake, a thing of smoke and mirrors.

All this, and more, is the stuff of the multiverse, the great roller-coaster rewriting of reality that has overturned conventional cosmology in the last decade or two..."

The funniest comment I've read about an infinite multiverse is that, if it exists, then somewhere there is a universe where Donald Duck is a real person.

Saj,
Surely, Unicorn's have their horn's on their foreheads? SC

\\"Most bizarre of all, scientists are now seriously discussing the possibility that our universe is a fake, a thing of smoke and mirrors." - Saj Patel//
-------------

Yes, that is mostly like true. That is what the Universe as a hologram says and that is what quite a few near death experiencers have said and that is what a few transcendental experiences that I've read have said. We live in a holographic projection and it is all an illusion, or "Maya" as Eastern religions describe it.

Excerpt from Roger Ebert's final moments with his wife, "But the day before he passed away, he wrote me a note: "This is all an elaborate hoax." I asked him, "What's a hoax?" And he was talking about this world, this place. He said it was all an illusion."
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a26606/roger-ebert-final-moments/

From The Universe as a Hologram,
"For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary reality and what is "there" is actually a holographic blur of frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too is an illusion."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

Excerpt from Michelle M's NDE description,
"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here."
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/michelle_m%27s_nde.htm

And I could go on but you get the jist of the idea. Everything that happens here is just a way to teach the soul the things it needs to learn and all the bad stuff that we see happening is no more real or important than if we are watching a movie on TV.

We are just actors playing our parts and while doing so our souls absorb the information or lessons they came here to learn, the stuff that can't be learned in heaven due to the difference between the physics of where we are now and the physics of where we are going. We simply learn here what can't be learned there.

AOD:

"I have already had 8 years of piano. My dilemma is how do I take my grand piano with me when I go?"

It's an interesting question, AOD. You're joking, of course, but are you also expressing a real concern? Are you afraid you might not find any way of expressing yourself that's as satisfying?

As central to my life as piano playing has been, it's never occurred to me that I'll miss it.

I think we get hung up on certain satisfactions, and lose sight of how vast the possibilities for expression are likely to be beyond the Earth sphere.

For some reason I’m reminded of what Terrence McKenna once said about SETI’s ceaseless efforts to locate other civilizations via radio frequencies, which, while, central to our way of life, may be less meaningful elsewhere:

“To search expectantly for a radio signal from an extraterrestrial source is probably as culture bound a presumption as to search the galaxy for a good Italian restaurant”

On the other hand, maybe there really *are* pianos out there—if we care to conjure them up. (They're just harps with hammers.)

And Italian restaurants too.

Why compared with the multiverse theory? Yes, some scientists accept these theories without evidence because they are stylish, and? What we have to do is expose the evidence of psi and afterlife and show why the survivalist interpretation of some of these phenomena is the most pribable.

@Art: but if we learn here what we can't learn 'there' then what relevance does what we learn here have 'there' - if you get my drift?

@Michael: do you mean to suggest that Donald Duck is *not* a real person? :(

"over the course of my life I've had a number of unusual and sometimes very powerful experiences. When I review these (and focusing on them tends to enable a kind of widened consciousness distinct from my usual egoic condition) it becomes clear that we are, collectively, still relatively clueless about the nature of our existence and the reality in which this takes place." - Bill Ingle

That's exactly where I stand too. :)

@Amos: I think you've simply got to imagine your grand piano on 'the other side'. Failing that, I suspect there's some kind of interdimensional currier service that can deliver apports quickly from one place to another. Hope that helps. ;)

Art,
Objective reality, I respectfully suggest; does not, as you quote "cease to exist"; but remains rooted within the dimension we inhabit. All dimensions, therefore; have their own 'objective reality'(OR) and to each dimension, OR is valid.

Michael,
Pray to God that you don't end up in a universe where Donald Duck is a real person, at least; not within the same dimension.

Another interesting aspect of all this is that it's in the "not knowing" that evokes the emotion. If we knew absolutely for certain that this side was just a holographic projection, an illusion, the things we experience wouldn't evoke the emotion that is needed for us to remember what it is we've experienced and learned.

There is a very close connection between emotion and memory and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. http://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20050131/emotions-make-memory-last

The lessons we experience here have to be powerful enough, and evoke enough emotion, in order to overcome those feelings of oneness and connectedness in heaven lest we lose our sense of separateness or uniqueness and to teach the soul about what time and space look and feel like and what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.

Excerpt from Mark H's NDE description, "There is no distance here. So time does not exist."
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/mark_h's_nde.htm

Art, good stuff on the simulationist aspects of reality. I do think reality can be *functionally* described as a simulation as Marcus Arvan has offered via his Peer to Peer Hypothesis that - IMO at least - recalls Michael's own idea about bubbles of information.

I'm wary of information existing on its own, though my understanding is Michael's definition of information includes aspects of the mental rather the information creating consciousness (this latter position I think is just absurd tbh).

AOD on AOL, thanks for clearing that up. May I call you Amos?
I may have a solution to your Grand Piano dilemma. There could be a chance that a combination of Manichaeism and Van de Graaff Generator would suffice. As this is unlikely, within this dimension, I think that you may have to wait until you have reached the other side (dimension.)
If 'Man With A Van' doesn't do it; then I guess that you're left with
'Dial-Emma'.SC

\\Julie asks, "@Art: but if we learn here what we can't learn 'there' then what relevance does what we learn here have 'there' - if you get my drift?"//
------------

We use the information and lessons we "learn" (imprinted on the soul) here to relate to or create a reality "there" (heaven). Without experiencing separation here we would remain part of the collective consciousness we call "God." Being born "here" allows the soul to become separate unique individuals in the same way that being born here creates a new person. We don't lose our sense of individuality when we die.

Once we become separate unique individuals we don't lose that sense of uniqueness once we transition to the other side. Sort of like having the best of both worlds or dimensions. Read Mark Horton's NDE. See what he is able to do once he crosses over.

excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE description, "I was unique yet I was the tiniest part of the whole."
http://celestial.kuriakon00.com/nde/mark_horton.htm

Ps. Amos, I meant courier not currier. It's my over-eager iPad again. Anyway, don't worry, I'm still working on how to get your grand piano over to the 'other side'. Where there's a will there's a way - as my old grandmother used to say. :)

I'm a bit wary of using NDEs as maps to the afterlife. My understanding is that, in addition to negative NDEs & NDEs asserting contradictory religious truths as definitive, there are various weird or disorganized experiences of the subject that happen after clinical death that don't fit a typical NDE narrative?

I recall a list of Japanese NDEs which definitely seemed more like confused dreams, including at least nightmarish one?

"I'm a bit wary of using NDEs as maps to the afterlife." - Saj
----------------

I only pay attention to the NDEs that are congruent with or parallel what the holographic universe theory teaches us. If you had read and understood the implications of the holographic universe theory, as well as read Dr. Ken Ring's book Life At Death, you'd know and understand what I'm talking about.

Read the online essay "The Universe as a Hologram" and then read Mark Horton's NDE narrative - the connections and parallels between them are striking. No way could it be a coincidence or accident. Mark Horton didn't even realize what he was doing when he said "I know this sounds like gibberish." Not to me it didn't because I saw the connections between the two.

The Universe as a Hologram,
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

Mark Horton's NDE narrative,
http://celestial.kuriakon00.com/nde/mark_horton.htm

I take the position that it really doesn't matter if an actual man existed, mostly because everyone has their own "personal Jesus" anyway. To conservatives, he's conservative, to liberals liberal, to New Agers he's an ascended master to philosophers he's a philosopher. Paul never met the physical man and didn't really talk about him, as Price has said. I know this is hard to take, but he really wasn't exceptional over other options two thousand years ago. It took Catholic Church historians to make him so.

Fred you are confused about science I am afraid. Comparing the multiverse which is a scientific hypothesis to a paranormal belief in fairies is silly but your post made my day so thanks for that. You would make a good drama teacher.

On a more serious note, Victor Stenger covers your objections here:

"In another objection, many nonbelieving scientists have joined theists in arguing that the multiverse is “non-scientific” because we have no way of observing a universe outside our own. This is wrong. The multiverse is a legitimate scientific hypothesis since it seems to be an unavoidable consequence of eternal inflation, which is based on our best observational data as well as our best theoretical knowledge."

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/fine-tuning-and-the-multiverse/

There are scientists out their testing for the multiverse, but I do not know any that are doing this for fairies. It is a well known fact the fairy photographs that Arthur Conan Doyle believed in were fake.

By the way we have some funny thing in this world like micro pigs are tiny but real, there is no need to invent fairies.

Bill

I do not think you understand the logical implication of an infinite multiverse. In such an existence exist anything that is logically possible exists. So yes fairies exist in one universe. Another universe has a world in which Hitler was the savior of the Jews. Another world had parallel dimension traveling unicorns.( why is one not in my living room). In yet another universe we have some powerful beings which for all purposes could be Gods. So oddly enough it seems you are arguing for Hinduism with us.

As for Downing, I suspect if he was alive he would have forgotten more about aeronautical engineering that you would ever know so I am inclined to take his word on whether the R-101 case showed an advanced knowledge of aeronautical engineering especially considered his livelihood largely depended on this skill. I suspect he knew a thing or two about aviation as he lead the air defense of England in 1940. I will put it this way. I got a friend of mine who is a Young Earth Creationist. I strongly disagree with his views . However he is an absolute genius with computers and makes over 100K per year because of his talent with computers and computer engineering. Now if I got a question about computers, particularly a complicated question should I say screw it he is a creationist and ask anyone but him or should I say his creationism is silly but damn he knows computers and move on. To ask the question is to answer it.

Richard Dawkin's has endorsed the Jesus Myth. Should I now throw his book Climbing Mount Improbable off my bookshelf or should I accept he is clueless about history but a brilliant biologist who I could learn a lot from. To ask the question is to answer it.

I think your argument about Downing is pretty lame to say the least so should I write you off now? Or should I think you have intelligent points despite making a bad argument.To ask the question is to answer it.

Also do you have a source beyond Wikipedia for the fairy claim?

Wikipedia's source is this article- http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/11/14/fairy-investigation-society/

Which is obviously not academic and furthermore in it's own words"Members: it would be fun to discover if Dowding (a member of the Ghost Club) and Walt Disney really belonged. But, in the meantime, here are a few other names that Beach has dug up: Dr Victor Purcell, ‘a lecturer on Far Eastern affairs at Cambridge’;. Leslie Shepard ‘former president of the now defunct Fairy Investigation Society’"

Would seem to put the Dowding claim into doubt.

So have you got a solid source for the following:

Dowding believing in fairies.
Dowding being a member of any fairy society.

I will use myself as an example. For awhile I used to subscribe to Weekly World News because I thought it was fun bullshit. I never once thought BatBoy was real ( but if we are in a multiverse he does!!) See another flaw with your line of reasoning, you are assuming Dowding was being serious.

As for Paul not talking about Jesus; um yes he does Price is just wrong.

Galatians 1 - 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

1 Corinthians 9 - 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

He preached that a wife could not leave her husband.
1 Corinthians 7 - 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.

He preached that those who taught the gospel should earn their living from it.
1 Corinthians 9 - 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

To the day of his crucifixion, he maintained a humble station in life.
Phillipians 2 - 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!

On the last night of his freedom, he and his followers instituted a custom of memorializing his time with them through bread and drink.
1 Corinthians 11 - 23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

He told his followers he'd come back miraculously after his execution, and those who might die in the interim would join him in the resurrection when he'd return.
1 Thessalonians 4 - 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

@Roslyn Ross-loved your post and Bill your beliefs fall well within her explanation of skepicism / cynicism.

Here's a physicist's take on the possibility of fairies.

http://marcelogleiser.com/blog/do-fairies-live-in-the-multiverse

The point is we can't definitively know as he explains here, which causes problems with theories- what can't be proved- string theory is one for example.

It is intelligent to be open minded as our species is still learning and much of what we understand may well be proved wrong.

Studying consciousness as many here propose is one way of freeing our egoic mind and meditation is shown to change the brain. A number of physicists have increased their understanding of the universe using meditation. You should try it Bill :)

If the physics of another universe or dimension were right then there is no reason fairies could not exist somewhere. We live in a Universe where time and space only go one way, with three dimensions, where separation in the macro universe seems to exist. But it is possible to have a dimension or universe where time flows both ways, where there are more than 3 dimensions, where the same non locality that happens on the micro level in our Universe also happens on the macro level. We can't assume that the physics we experience here is the same everywhere else. Other dimensions or universes could be very different from what we perceive in our Universe.

Here's another source for Dowding's belief in fairies:

http://is.gd/EQIsix

It seems to have been connected with Theosophy.

One thing about Bill. He sure knows how to get people reading, and responding to, what he writes. :)

Concerning fairies, but not for you, Bill, because I already know your thoughts on the subject (and I don't mean that to be rude, just realistic):

One of my favorite books in recent years is Graham Hancock's "Supernatural." I think it's a stunning work, and it makes the argument that supernatural beings (as reported throughout the millenia), fairies, and the more recent alien manifestations are all examples of the spirit world connecting with us in various guises, for various purposes.

I find it hard to read what he says and simply dismiss fairies as nonsense, so I think Dowding may well have been on to something.

Here's an excerpt from Supernatural:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FpMhxNgf97YC&pg=PT216&lpg=PT216&dq=graham+hancock+%22eyewitness+reports+of+human+encounters+with+supernatural+beings%22&source=bl&ots=wMOUq9mNSd&sig=03lQxEInHVKtzOHHMMoXf-cd9Co&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAkYDwy8HJAhVU9GMKHS64ClYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=graham%20hancock%20%22eyewitness%20reports%20of%20human%20encounters%20with%20supernatural%20beings%22&f=false

We've discussed this book before, Michael, and you had good things to say about it. Though maybe the fairy aspect was less appealing to you.

"Comparing the multiverse which is a scientific hypothesis to a paranormal belief in fairies is silly but your post made my day so thanks for that."

But your fallacy remains. It is fallacious to reject the conclusion of X on a topic just because X holds a seemingly ridiculous belief in another topic.

Thanks Michael for the fairy link. It is one of the best I have read. I had read about Findhorn many years ago so perhaps that is where my ideas about the possibility of fairies came from. I don't know. The article you linked is what I tried to briefly say in my above comment of 11/20/15. It is difficult to discuss this topic seriously so one has to approach it obliquely. I really do try to keep an open mind about these things. - AOD

"I know this is hard to take, but he really wasn't exceptional over other options two thousand years ago. It took Catholic Church historians to make him so."

@ Steve Smith.

He was absolutely, extraordinarily exceptional, Steve, in every way. I hope if you ever have the good fortune to meet this marvellous being, he remembers your comment and gives you a friendly ribbing about it.

On Bill's continued to attempt to deceive, just to point out Strenger was an anti-theist and part of his hunger for the multiverse to be real was his desire to utilize it to excuse fine tuning. See above posts by me and Lynn to clarify the pseudoskeptical evangelism.

Also note his condescension toward Fred, trying to manipulate the ingroup selection via mockery. The classic pseudoskeptical social manipulation tactic.

In fact there is no necessity for the Multiverse to be real, and arguably less evidence for it than fairies.

For further information on the intellectual errors that lead to the Multiverse I suggest The Singular Universe and the Reality of Time, as well as this on Aeon:

Physics’s pangolin: Trying to resolve the stubborn paradoxes of their field, physicists craft ever more mind-boggling visions of reality

by Margaret Wertheim

https://aeon.co/essays/the-paradoxes-that-sit-at-the-very-core-of-physics

Another critique on multiverse evangelism exceeding scientific reality from the same site:

Too many worlds -Nobody knows what happens inside quantum experiments. So why are some so keen to believe in parallel universes?

https://aeon.co/essays/is-the-many-worlds-hypothesis-just-a-fantasy

In fact one could argue there is more evidence for the paranormal than there is the multiverse. Of course Bill, true to the dishonesty of the pseudoskeptical cults, won't attack that particular pseudoscience.

Art; you state:
'We can't assume that the physics we experience here is the same everywhere else. Other dimensions or universes could be very different from what we perceive in our Universe.'

I'm pretty sure that has to be the case, else; what would be the point of another dimension? SC

Fred (now pretending to be Kris), Dowding was sincere in his belief in fairies. He linked them to astral planes from his theosophical and spiritualist beliefs.

You are not reporting the full story by only linking to the 'strangehistory' article, his Wikipedia page also cites "Orange, Vincent (2008). Dowding of Fighter Command: Victor of the Battle of Britain" which is a professional biography that documents his beliefs in fairies. It is entirely wrong to believe Dowding did not believe in fairies, he was open about it.

The Fairy Investigation Society was real:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Investigation_Society

The official website here:

http://www.fairyist.com/fairy-investigation-society/

As for Dowding he wrote a preface to the psychic book "A True Fairy Tale" by Daphne Charters (search this up).

If you search "Dowding Fairies" in Google Books you will also find references to Dowding's "The Dark Star" published in 1951 a posthumous record of his psychic beliefs that records sightings of fairies.

Anyway, I don't think we need to have a huge debate about Dowding's beliefs in fairies. There is no evidence fairies exist and Dowding like Doyle was a great man on various topics but credulous when it came to occult beliefs. Regards.

"Fred (now pretending to be Kris) ..."

Kris is a longtime commenter here. He's not Fred. (Their IP addresses are different, too.)

I agree that Dowding believed in fairies and that this rather peculiar belief is not supported, as far as I know, by any evidence. It seems to have been part of the theosophist belief system.

The multiverse may possibly have some empirical support; I've read, for instance, that a certain measurable gravitational distortion of our cosmos could make sense in terms of attraction by an adjacent universe. But this is unproven.

The multiverse need not consist of an infinite number of universes, only a very large number.

It's also worth noting that the multiverse theory is distinct from the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM, though the two are often conflated. The MWI would lead to an infinite or virtually infinite number of universes, since new universes would branch off constantly. The only support for this theory is mathematical;l it fits the equations. But so do other interpretations that don't require extra universes.

Michael, you posted:

'Here's another source for Dowding's belief in fairies:

http://is.gd/EQIsix

It seems to have been connected with Theosophy.'

Posted by: Michael Prescott | December 04, 2015 at 01:11 AM

I can tell you that I have discovered evidence which suggests that this is far from being just a philosophical issue.
Go to 'Google Maps'-England- Sussex and The Mausoleum of John Fuller. Select; Street View and proceed in a northerly direction (the Pyramidical Mausoleum on your left.) Follow this road as it bears left through the village. At the crest of a rise, an ambulance can be seen ahead (on the right.) Continue onwards, pass the ambulance and follow the road round the bend, to the left. Onwards to the edge of some trees. Just beyond the trees stands an isolated bush. Fractionally beyond this bush, STOP!
Pan left and you will notice 2 (two) sunbeams, emanating from above (where else!)
Now, follow the sunbeams downwards and you come to a small clearing upon the grass verge of the road. Look closely.
There, at the rear of the verge and against the foot of a small wall, can clearly be seen 3 (three) Fairies! - I kid you not!
Focus in as much as you can and you will find that the image strengthens.
From left to right, we have: (1) The Tin Man, (2) A Gnome - complete with hooded cowl and carrying a wooden staff. (He looks directly at the camera.) (3) Taller and to the right, stands the figure of what appears to be Snow- White!
On reflection, I am prepared to accept that the last said figure is possibly a combination of shadow and flower shapes playing tricks with ones eyes. But the others?
By presenting this 'SCOOP' to your forum, I am sure I will have the readers convinced; that this is clear evidence that fairies do, indeed, inhabit this dimension. SC


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