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Interesting! I agree with Peter that there is no such thing as powerful entities turned evil. They derive their power from their higher vibration, and that vibration would not be high if they attempted to do evil. (And I don't think that, in the higher dimensions, we can go backward, since time and entropy do not work as they do here.)

I think that spirits may continue to be just as demented as they were when embodied in a physical form, maybe more so since they are no longer constrained by a physical form. Leaving a physical body does not immediately transform a consciousness into the Virgin Mary.

There is another way to look at this too. If we are talking about the survival of consciousness, perhaps the surviving consciousness was not a human one. If consciousness expands by evolving into a higher form perhaps the so-called 'evil spirits' really are lower forms of consciousness---human or otherwise--- struggling to adjust to a higher level of enlightenment. (-Just saying-.) - AOD

Loved that interview. I liked how he pointed out that taken singularly, the supposed communications from his son didn't seem to mean anything, but when taken as a whole, they indicate something else. The same seems to apply NDEs and psychic phenomena. Or like looking at a mass of pixels on a computer screen - only when you look at it in a certain way do you see an image.

And while I'm still a doubting Thomas, I still can't explain the television set that turned on and off by itself several times one afternoon when I'd been thinking about someone deceased. I think Blatty is on to something, although I wonder why so much of the communication seems to be with electricity?

Seems to me that spiritualists say there are no demons and Christians say everything is demons. There's no middle, no grey area where ghosts AND demons could both exist.

@AOD: "I think that spirits may continue to be just as demented as they were when embodied in a physical form, maybe more so since they are no longer constrained by a physical form. Leaving a physical body does not immediately transform a consciousness into the Virgin Mary."

My (albeit limited) understanding is that the spirit residing within the human body is but a mere fraction of the individual spirit. Surely, therefore, after the transition it achieves a much higher vantage point and becomes part of a vastly more expansive consciousness? How petty would it then seem to remain focused on earthly details and human triviality?

AOD, I see it as you do. I think there is a lot by way of evidence to suggest you're right.

Personally, this isn't a popular view amongst spiritualists and pretty much everything except Christians, I don't believe these entities are dead people at all but evil spirits. I have noted a very big attitude with all stripes of new agers, spiritualists and atheists, where there is an anti-Christian bias, foul language against even mentioning Christian themes and something bordering on hatred. I think they all have the same source, although I admit it would be hard to show where a dividing line could be between ghosts and other spirits, just as a miraculous synchronicity could come from a good place or a bad place.

There does seem to be some connection between altered states of consciousness through spiritual practices, and drugs. The idea being you need to expand your consciousness to somehow attain enlightenment, regardless of the potential dangers. If you think about it though, really think about it, why would there be dangers associated with expansion of consciousness if God is supposed to be somehow behind it? Does God really cause seriously dangerous symptoms like kundalini? I would have to state quite categorically that the answer is a definite, "no".

AOD,

||I think that spirits may continue to be just as demented as they were when embodied in a physical form, maybe more so since they are no longer constrained by a physical form. Leaving a physical body does not immediately transform a consciousness into the Virgin Mary.||

Yes. I think we need to distinguish between "the departed" and "ghosts." Ghosts are spirits that have not moved on to higher dimensions than 3D. The thing is, I do not think ghosts are empowered. They may indeed be malevolent, but they are also confused and have limited freedom of movement, etc.

||There is another way to look at this too. If we are talking about the survival of consciousness, perhaps the surviving consciousness was not a human one. If consciousness expands by evolving into a higher form perhaps the so-called 'evil spirits' really are lower forms of consciousness---human or otherwise--- struggling to adjust to a higher level of enlightenment.||

Here the concept of vibration comes into play. I don't think lower-vibrational entities can "go" into the higher vibrational realms at all. Further, I don't think there's such a thing as a higher-dimensional being "falling" like Lucifer and wreaking havoc with its powers intact in lower-dimensional realms.

||Seems to me that spiritualists say there are no demons and Christians say everything is demons. There's no middle, no grey area where ghosts AND demons could both exist.||

Christians say everything is demons in order to maintain their rigid belief system. They cry "Satan!" whenever something makes them uncomfortable. I've even heard the Being of Light in NDEs described as the Devil trying to prevent people from getting to Jesus.

I think there are definitely malevolent spirits, which may be human or otherwise. I think there is also what I call "junk consciousness" that "lives" in the lower vibrations and can take on many forms--IF you choose to interact with it. There are *not*, I believe such things as higher-level, powerful beings that choose to be evil instead of good. Nor could such beings retain their power if they did. Why not? Their lower vibrations would put them below the level of 3D (where we are), and they basically would not be able to harm us unless we "dip down" into their level. And that's the limiting factor: malevolent consciousness doesn't harm us unless we channel it, since it is below our level. Ways of channeling it include foolish things like using a Ouija board, as well as various types of mental illness.

"I think Blatty is on to something, although I wonder why so much of the communication seems to be with electricity?"

I don't know Kathleen, but I've had spooky experiences with electricity.

One evening, years ago, my family and I came home from a point-to-point race meeting with our horses, which we had to bed down and feed before coming inside. It had been a cold, wet and very long day in February.

By the time we got indoors I was so thoroughly chilled that I felt the need to go to bed immediately in order to get warm. Once in bed I realized that, while I'd turned off the bedside light, I hadn't turned off the main light in the bedroom.

For some minutes I lay there, hoping someone would climb the stairs so that I could ask them to turn the light off for me. (I didn't want to get back out of bed - that's how chilled I felt.)

No one came because everyone was at the other end of the house, in the kitchen. So I stared at that light fitting on the ceiling. I just stared and stared wishing it would go out.

Then, guess what? That bulb just popped and the light went out. Coincidence?

Ps. I must write all these experiences down somewhere. Really, I must. :)

Hi Julie,
Yes, apparently there is some thought that each of us might be part of a multifaceted entity---an over soul, if you will, that exists at some higher level. If one believes in the possibility of reincarnation as I have a tendency to believe, then that over soul might be composed of all of my previous incarnations. I would like to think that my current incarnation is the newest, improved and best version however and as such would not be greatly enhanced by the previous versions.

I would not want the previous entities of my over soul, which might include a fall-down drunken vagabond in the wild west of the 1800s and a plundering barbarian clone of Attila The Hun to exert much influence on how I behaved as a spirit after my latest incarnation. My hope is that I have learned a thing or two in my current experience and that it would become my enhanced presentation, especially immediately after transitioning into the afterlife.

I tend to believe that most spirits do not care much about what is happening on earth after they arrive on the other side. From various accounts they seem to be engrossed by the place they find themselves in and go forward in that new experience. There may be, of course, those who are so attached to their earth existence that they find it difficult to move onward.

The spiritual poet Patience Worth has stated that spirits return to "yester-year" where they find themselves in familiar surroundings with people they knew and who had passed on. Here is part of what she had to say when relaying what it is like after death:

"Do harken Ye! And cast afearing
To the wiles of beating gales and wooing breeze.
I find me throat aswell and voice attuned.
Ah, let me then to sing, for joy consumeth me!
And fear hath slipped away to leave me sing.
To wake—and wonder warmeth at my heart,
I’ve waked in yester-year!"

http://www.patienceworth.com/patience-worth-philosophy/

Certainly in my case, if my parents returned to their best "yester-year" when they were young and vibrant, I would not even have been born yet and they would have no knowledge that I existed on earth and no desire to contact me here.

I agree with you that "it would seem petty to remain focused on earthly details and human triviality" when what lies ahead is so engaging and fulfilling. Apparently though, some spirits for whatever reasons do just that and become trapped in a hinterland between earth and 'heaven' searching for something but not knowing how to move forward. These spirits might then be experienced as daemons or ghosts but really---they are just lost souls..- AOD

"Personally, this isn't a popular view amongst spiritualists and pretty much everything except Christians, I don't believe these entities are dead people at all but evil spirits."

IMO, all of the above and then some. In my view, we (our awareness) are all, at a level above our egos, part of a larger organization of psychic fields.

Some of these fields are full of "junk" (as Matt puts it) and others have a preponderance of negative emotions. Others are more full of positive energies. Some are a mixed bag.

Departed spirits remain within the fields that animated them during their incarnated life. Some of these fields are really dark (=evil). Some are really bright (=saintly). Most are somewhere in between. Just like people you meet. Because people - the personalities - *are* these fields.

And yes, I do believe in evil in a very biblical sense. I think that to deny the existence of evil is very much wishful thinking and is fraught with potential disaster.

An incarnate person could, under certain circumstances, have his natural frequency (field) over-ridden/hijacked by a force from a negative field - whether that be spirit of the deceased or just a storm front from that psychic energy conglomeration.

Matt, I apologise if this sounds bad, but perhaps it never occurred to you that "spirits" might in fact be evil spirits and not dead people. And all that entails. I spent over 20 years investigating all this paranormal and parapsychology stuff, and my conclusion in the end was that all of these manifestations stop occurring as soon as Jesus is invoked. It could simply be that spiritists are under bondage and they don't know it.

I would add that all traditional societies recognize that sickness and mental health issues are caused by a mal-alignment with the spirit world (= psychic fields).

The ceremonies with dancing, drumming, chanting, etc. are designed to re-align a person to a healthier frequency.

Same with exorcisms.

". . . malevolent consciousness doesn't harm us unless we channel it, since it is below our level. Ways of channeling it include foolish things like using a Ouija board, as well as various types of mental illness."

Interesting theory you have there Matt. I am sure you didn't mean to imply that mental illness was a "foolish thing" and I cringe to hear that mental illness might still, in the minds of some people, be associated with daemons. That is not to say that perhaps there is not some spiritual cause of some illnesses of consciousness and I think that that cause is for the most part overlooked by most mainstream psychiatrists and psychologists. There are some e.g. Brian Weiss, who do incorporate that idea into their psychiatric practice but most of those professionals are laughed-at, avoided at all costs and sidetracked by their peers.

Personally I don't think that a Ouija Board is a "foolish" thing either but probably just unnecessary. It could be viewed as a 'thought dispeller' quieting the endless chatter of the conscious mind and opening the conscious mind or subconscious mind of those on earth to consciousnesses in some other realm. It might be likened to a mandala, a chant or saying the rosary to clear the mind.

If there are so-called 'daemonic entities' out there perhaps they can make an impact only on those who are themselves in tune or in vibration, so to speak, with the thoughts and interests of such 'daemons'. - AOD

Matt,
You started me thinking about spirits as related to mental health issues. I am aware of certain mentally-ill persons in my life who I think have some spiritual issues related to their illness. As I consider these cases I can imagine how past-life experiences may be affecting them in their current life.

I think most of the time those spiritual issues related to mental illness have to do with the individual and are not the effect of some other disembodied spirit or daemon. I am aware that there may be exceptions to this and one good example is the case of Lurancy Vennum. who was possessed by an entity by the name of Mary Roff. This possession lasted for a couple of months I think after which Mary left and Lurancy returned healed of several physical and mental disorders with which she had been afflicted. Lurancy went on to marry, have children and live a normal life.

I have often thought that the current up-tick of autism and other developmental mental disorders might be the result of lives lived during the 1960s when psycedelic and other mind-altering drugs were so much in use by young adults.

I have always had sympathy for those with gender dysphoria as it seems to me that this might clearly be related to a past lives. Being born in the body of a male or female has certain challenges and certain rewards. Both embodiments provide an opportunity for growth. In some ways I think that refusing to accept and follow-through with the gender in which one is born somehow removes an opportunity to either correct an overbalance of sexuality or simply removes an opportunity for learning the Yin or Yang of life.

I am going far astray here but I think that sex on the spiritual level is not so clearly defined as it is in a physical form and perhaps each spirit is a blend of both feminine and masculine experiences. There are sexual archetypes of course e.g., Marilyn Monroe and O.J. Simpson but in physical life most people fall on a spectrum of sexuality somewhere around the middle on a scale of 1 to 10. Perhaps the Monroes and Simpsons need to be born in an opposite gender in order to achieve balance and understanding of the physical experience. I suppose it would be difficult for them to adjust to an opposite gender and it is understandable that they would want to change back. - AOD

"I spent over 20 years investigating all this paranormal and parapsychology stuff, and my conclusion in the end was that all of these manifestations stop occurring as soon as Jesus is invoked."

What is that stuff exactly? Because I think that cases of apparitions -with the appearance of a deceased human- and mediumship as Eileen Garrett and Leonora Piper have nothing to do with demons, Jesus or religions.

David R
"There does seem to be some connection between altered states of consciousness through spiritual practices, and drugs. The idea being you need to expand your consciousness to somehow attain enlightenment, regardless of the potential dangers. If you think about it though, really think about it, why would there be dangers associated with expansion of consciousness if God is supposed to be somehow behind it? Does God really cause seriously dangerous symptoms like kundalini? I would have to state quite categorically that the answer is a definite, "no"."

The dangers exist because we've spent countless eons living with reduced consciousness, practically unconscious compared to the great heights we are meant to attain. Change requires a great many steps that one must necessarily traverse. That's why most change is gradual. So gradual, in fact, that most people don't even notice it, like aging. Abrupt change requires going through all those steps all at once and usually looks like getting struck by lightning. One cannot bench 500 pounds having never exercised before, the muscles need to adapt. And if one were to attempt such a feat it would be very painful. The same is true with trying to force all of cosmic consciousness into a brain that is hardwired to focus on food and reproduction and the egoic pursuits.

Kundalini itself is like electricity, it is totally neutral. Problems only arise when people try to force too much current through a wire that is not rated to handle it. In most people there's little current, but some people spend years getting the current to expand to the point where they can handle it. Sometimes, usually when people do something they're not supposed to, there's too much current and people have bad experiences, but that's not some jerk God doing it to be mean, that's someone who has only lifted a pool noodle trying to bench 500 pounds all at once.

It's the same with bad trips. Some people take drugs to try to short cut enlightenment. And when they get taken above the mundane and see that life as they know it is all illusion and time doesn't exist they cannot handle it all at once and some commit suicide. When I train incessantly and find out that all this is fake I take it as a profound relief. The difference is I've spent this lifetime and probably more getting to this stage, I didn't take dope looking for some pretty lights and sounds and got all of Beethoven downloaded into my brain in a nanosecond.

That's why there's so much secrecy surrounding mystical initiation. It's the same reason calculus or sniper training aren't taught to kindergartners, there are a lot of prior steps that must be learned first because there are a whole lot of ways to mess things up even with simple mistakes.

Except that you failed to explain by what means you protect yourself, and you can't possibly explain any such thing because in your enlightened state, you simply do not know.

David R,

||Matt, I apologise if this sounds bad, but perhaps it never occurred to you that "spirits" might in fact be evil spirits and not dead people.||

I already said above I believer there is "junk consciousness" with which people can interact that is not human.

Do I think that God created the angelic host and 1/3 of them rebelled under the leadership of Lucifer? No.

||And all that entails. I spent over 20 years investigating all this paranormal and parapsychology stuff, and my conclusion in the end was that all of these manifestations stop occurring as soon as Jesus is invoked.||

What do you mean by "manifestations"? That anything that can be labeled "paranormal" is demonic? So if you invoke Jesus I will not have my psychic abilities?

||It could simply be that spiritists are under bondage and they don't know it.||

And maybe the Being of Light in NDEs is the Devil. That is a sad world to imagine: in which God has total control but allows his supposedly beloved creation to be fooled by Satan and assorted demons at every turn.

Here's my big argument against that kind of thing: What is the limited factor? Satan wants to lead us all astray, right? He is able to tempt us in our own minds, right? So what prevents him from chattering away in our minds 24/7, driving us all mad? What *permits* him to have a certain level of access to our minds but not total, constant access? Is that God? So god is like a check valve, letting in Satan a little but not too much?

And you can invoke Jesus, and the bad stuff goes away. For how long? Do you get a 10 minute break from the Devil, but then you have to invoke Jesus again?

There are a lot of fundie preachers who have prayed not to sin, but they ended up sinning anyway. You know, gay hookers and blow, that sort of thing. So Jesus helps some but not others, helps now but not later. Helps for a limited time only.

Such a world is ridiculously chaotic. This is what the omnipotent God intends? Not believable at all.

I meant to say "limiting factor." If we grant that Satan has the wish to bring ultimate destruction to all people, then what prevents him from doing so? He has some access--why not total access?

I have a little time now to comment. Basically, your argument appears to be that your psychic powers transcend morality. I really don't think so.

"Basically, your argument appears to be that your psychic powers transcend morality."

I think the argument is that morality is not identical to belief in the divinity of Jesus.

As far as psi is concerned, I do think it transcends - or more accurately, does not have much to do with - morality. That is, I don't see any necessary connection between psychic abilities and moral virtue. There have been some pretty messed up people who seem to have had legitimate psi talents. There have also been virtuous people (even saints) with such talents. I don't see any clear correlation.

To me, psi is something like musical talent. Most people have a smidgen of musical talent, a few (like me) have none, and a very few are prodigies. But the musical prodigies are not necessarily more moral people than anyone else. They have a certain gift, but it does not necessarily translate into ethical conduct, just as being a great athlete or a great actor does not necessarily make someone a good person.

I agree, Michael, well said.

Matt, I have a different angle on the evil v good thing, but I'm not ready to express it. However, I'll point out that in your co-creator model, there is room still room for god and devil. It's just that, in your mythology, as opposed to these things being created pre-humanity, humanity itself would be creating them (or adding weight to some pre-existing tendency).

So all of the positive thoughts and emotions of billions of souls = god/heaven and the negative = devil/hell in the psychic/non-physical realms.

Why can't the devil just take over completely? Well, I think it does happen in some rare cases, but mostly, people - regardless of the model you view them through - are tuned to both the good and the bad. So there's always a competing focus, if not a balance.

It could be that psychic abilities come from karmic effects from past lives, which is also an option. Spiritual people do seem to be more "evolved". Anandamayi Ma, for example, seems to have been born enlightened. I agree that these abilities probably aren't related directly to morality.

FYI, I was trying to be like Devil's Advocate (no pun intended). I am much more inclined to believe that spirits would constitute dead people, ghosts, evil spirits and angels, than to believe that they are all just demons. However, I would also say that mediums at séances and in general probably aren't spiritually evolved enough to contact high level spiritual beings and probably attract low level spirits, including ghosts, that seem to be devious and have bad intent. This would go a long way to explaining why there is so much fraud or trickery involved in all the spiritualist stuff.

David, I don't think I can agree with you that "mediums at séances and in general probably aren't spiritually evolved enough to contact high level spiritual beings and probably attract low level spirits, including ghosts, that seem to be devious and have bad intent." The well-known mediums such as Leonora Piper, who reportedly was in contact with the 'Imperator Group' was in contact with a rather high-minded group of beings. I am not that familiar with 'Silver Birch' but I understand that his communications were on a high level. 'Seth' of Jane Roberts, 'Patience Worth' of Pearl Curran and the spirits seemingly in contact with the modern-day psychics e.g., Chris Stellar, George Anderson and many many others don't seem to me to be devious or have a bad intent but to the contrary, seem to provide information decidedly from a higher level of existence. While 'Phinuit' of Mrs. Piper was perhaps pretentious in his credentials, I don't think he had any bad intent. If there is fraud and trickery discovered among mediums (which might be explainable) I think it is more likely to come from them (the medium) rather than spirits. -AOD

"Matt, I have a different angle on the evil v good thing, but I'm not ready to express it. However, I'll point out that in your co-creator model, there is room still room for god and devil. It's just that, in your mythology, as opposed to these things being created pre-humanity, humanity itself would be creating them (or adding weight to some pre-existing tendency).

So all of the positive thoughts and emotions of billions of souls = god/heaven and the negative = devil/hell in the psychic/non-physical realms."

You know that these ideas are very similar to the fictional world of Warhammer 40K? This franchise shows a Humanity's future has been in constant war against other alien species, to such an extent that negative emotions have created in another dimension very powerful evil beings, the chaos gods, and Humanity had a special role in the awakening of those beings. The psychics or psykers, are literally diabolical, because their power is based on that hellish dimension.

I do not believe that emotions have as much power as Warhammer 40K, but maybe the reality is a collective achievement of all sentient beings. In addition there is a strong tradition that believes that psi is demonic and should be banned...

David,

What are you looking for protection against, evil entities or psychological shock? I'm a lot better at one than the other.

I find it kind of funny, this juxtaposition of enlightenment and not knowing. Enlightenment comes in stages. It's not an all or nothing thing. There are experiences, as such, but getting them to stick as permanent traits is still loads and loads of work that I have to get around to doing.

For me this life seems like a setup. I either did something really bad or really good to get stuck in such a condition where I could have the opportunity to hit rock bottom and quit the world for two years. After a life of asking questions and taking everything to bits to find out why people believe what they believe, why things are the way they are, something just snapped. My frustration with life just hit a wall and I had to fight or die, and I chose to fight. The whole time I felt something pulling me over the edge. One thing that keeps recurring throughout the various traditions, whether it's St. Paul or Ramana Maharshi, or even the more advanced schools of Buddhism, is the issue of grace. You can't get there by yourself. You have to get your ego out of the way and then, if you're lucky, God will appear. The idea that you're achieving anything through any sort of effort on your own part is just fuel for the ego's fire.

*****

RE: psychic powers and morality, I agree that psychic abilities are not intrinsically linked to morality. Or degree of enlightenment for that matter. The great masters from Buddha, to Ramana Maharshi have said that powers are a distraction. They can be really cool, but they're just more ways of playing around in the relative world. Finding debug codes for a video game and having lots of fun is still playing the game, not turning away from the screen and realizing that the game isn't real. There are certain practices to develop powers and other practices to develop true awareness. Sometimes they intersect, and sometimes particularly saintly people do develop powers as a byproduct, but most powers really deal with the lower levels of existence, etheric and astral dimensions and things.

Ted Serios had powers and he was a rather colorful character, so is Uri Geller (who, if I recall correctly, made most of his money dowsing for oil and not performing tricks). At the same time there have been many saints who have demonstrated nothing aside from immunity to pain by withdrawing from the senses.

Enoch, I cannot make head or tails of what you said. Would you like to ask a question?

David

Sorry, I must be confused by the way the comments work here. A few days ago I was giving my understanding of kundalini and expansion of consciousness and then in the very next comment you said:

"Except that you failed to explain by what means you protect yourself, and you can't possibly explain any such thing because in your enlightened state, you simply do not know."

I assumed that was directed at me and I was trying to answer in light of my earlier comment.

The second half was just my comments in general.

no one,

Actually, what you said sounds close to my belief system. I do not disbelieve in evil, as you know...

Enoch,

What you say makes sense! Re this:

||RE: psychic powers and morality, I agree that psychic abilities are not intrinsically linked to morality. Or degree of enlightenment for that matter. The great masters from Buddha, to Ramana Maharshi have said that powers are a distraction.||

Tricky matter! I think the "powers" were called a distraction since ancient times because people were mostly using them to go into 4D, whereas Ascension is aimed at 5D and higher. Thus, if you were meditating in the year 200 BCE or whatever and experiencing siddhis, it would be wise *in some sense* for your master to tell you to ignore them. OBEs and whatnot weren't going to get you closer to enlightenment, after all. *However,* I also think Buddhism was in essence a failed program to get people enlightened. Most likely, the energy and effort put into meditation slowly helped advance vibration of the planet and the evolution of the human species, so it was not for nothing, albeit mislabeled, if you would.

Today, we are at a level of global psi ability that I believe is much higher than in the past. In any case, so many people are psychic now that it would be unwise to tell people to suppress their abilities. Rather, use them to help others and ascend, say I.

The pursuit of enlightenment to the exclusion of powers which might help others sounds somewhat selfish to me. Have I missed the point? :)

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