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"I would be wary of saying that NDEs are the only experience on our list here that have produced veridical evidence. Certainly OBEs have done so, as have precognitive dreams (they have for me, though I couldn't convince a skeptic). I can only assume the psychedelic trips have done so as well on occasion."

Matt, that last sentence is absolutely right. Grof's books are filled with evidence of that. Here's an example:

"In one remarkable case, Dr. Grof’s patient found himself in a dimension inhabited by thousands of luminescent discarnate beings. One of them communicated with him telepathically and pleaded with him to contact a couple in the Moravian city of Kromeriz and tell them that their son Ladislav was well taken care of and doing just fine. He was even given their names, street address and telephone number. When Dr. Grof himself called the number, he asked to speak with Ladislav and the woman on the phone began to cry and said “our son is not with us any more; he passed away, we lost him three weeks ago.”

Ian \\If you take mushrooms, DMT, psychedelics, etc. you're put in a slingshot and fired straight upwards with no idea where you're going to land. You may fall into the higher realms and experience God, love, etc., but you can also land in the astral ream//

I don't buy this argument at all. Here's the thing, you are what you are and you can't be what you aren't. You're not going to "slingshot" to anywhere because there is no where to slingshot to other than there where are you are now, in your heart of hearts, your thoughts, your subconscious and your conscious.

What you fear slingshotting to is yourself. That is something psychedelics have taught me indelibly.

Where Bruce and I depart from agreement sometimes is that (and I might be misunderstanding him) he believes that when we die it's all like the being of light NDE. Period. Full stop. I do not believe that it is so. I believe that while we may (or may not) encounter the being of light, we will sooner or later arrive at equilibrium with our thoughts and desires and karma. So what are those? Dare you to look?

The being of light may be the ultimate destination, but on the way there is plenty of astral dross that has to be worked off. ADCs tend to confirm my POV.

Psychedelics have always shown me *my* thoughts, *my* dross and *my* light - *my* world. What else could they show me? Why should I fear myself since I'm always there anyhow even if my ego wants to pretend I'm not and that it isn't creating what it is.

Back to the being of light thing.....I think this is an unrealistic expectation unless one is born the Christ, which we all are and yet are all not. It's the goal, not what you have achieved today and, talking about shortcuts, the idea that regardless of who you are and how you lived you become one with the light, right now, right at the end of *this* lifetime seems to me to be the penultimate short cut. All you have to do is die, once, and pow! you're there and all is said and done; unto glory.

And if you tell me, "no, that's not how it is", then you have to accept, as I do, that there's a lot in between. And if you accept that, then when the psychedelics show you the in betweens you can know that they are showing you something just as real as when they show you the ultimate goal.

Michael,

I'm not a mechanistic-materialist-reductionist by any measure, but I do want to make a small argument for their side.

When people have 'bad trips', the cause might be not knowing the proper dosage for a positive experience. On the other hand, the brain might know to the last nanogram how much DMT the pineal gland should produce in order to ease the suffering of an individual's last moments while maintaining lucidity.

Hi Michael,

Wow, I should have commented when I first read this, before this mass of comments! No time to wade through them all right now, as fascinating as it all looks.

Just an idea I've thought about quite a bit:

Some spiritual experiences (such as NDEs) are like walking around in the streets of the spiritual world.

Other spiritual experiences (such as drug trips) are like watching a movie in a movie theater in the spiritual world--or perhaps being in a spiritual holodeck immersed in a particular constructed scenario.

One of them is an experience of regular life as it exists in the spiritual world.

The other is more like a spiritual drama being enacted as a full-sensory experience. It expresses something of the nature of spiritual reality, but may be a fictional or novelistic account rather than a non-fiction, historical type account of the nature of God, spirit, and the spiritual world.

Like fiction, this does not mean it is false. It simply means that it is not depicting, or intended to depict, literal, objective realities, but is portraying inner psychological, interpersonal, and spiritual realities using evocative and symbolic imagery and sensory experiences.

"Where Bruce and I depart from agreement sometimes is that (and I might be misunderstanding him) he believes that when we die it's all like the being of light NDE. Period. Full stop."

No one, I don't know what happens after the body dies. Or even if it makes sense to talk about a sequence of events, since, in the larger scheme, all things apparently "happen" simultaneously.

But if we do resort to the compromise of attaching linear concepts to a timeless reality, here's one way to think about this: a "full experience" of being in the light, and karmic evolution, are not mutually exclusive. At any point in its development, a soul may have an experience of cosmic consciousness, whether that happens in an NDE, immediately following actual death, while meditating, or on taking a psychedelic.

This preview of complete reunion with Source can serve as motivation and guidance for the evolving soul. That's how I think about my own ecstatic psychedelic journeys.

".....This preview of complete reunion with Source can serve as motivation and guidance for the evolving soul....."

What you say makes sense, Bruce. I always wondered about what you really thought about that. Thanks for clarifying. I guess we really do see things very much the same.

"I guess we really do see things very much the same."

Excellent. I got it all from Nanci. ;)

"Excellent. I got it all from Nanci. ;)"

Arrgggghhhhhh.....

Kaboom!

Splat!

It is with great regret that I must imform you that my husband, no one, passed away not so peacefully this afternoon, succumbing to exploding head syndrome, after reading something posted by Bruce Siegel.

Speaking of "Splat!"--what do you think of this ditty of mine? (It should be centered so the stanzas look like upside-down pyramids.)
------------------


Splatori

Ye shall know the truth*
And the truth shall
Make you
Free
k
*E.g., God is an atheist

&
Shuck the shell
And free the
Inner
Nut

&
Planter-plant your seed and
Crack the crock
Of Ages

&
Let the heavens fall
Where they
May

Lost & found
Shattered
Sound

Splatori.....good stuff,Rodger.

Thanks No One. (I was trying to rattle the assured and reassure the rattled.) Here's one more:

Midnight Sun
My candle burns at neither end
It will not lash the night—
No shadow foe, no shadow friend—
But gets a lovely light

"succumbing to exploding head syndrome"

:)

Just saw this.

Here are some of my working assumptions about psychedelics (subject to revision):

1) Psychedelics can lead you into dark, lower astral "back alleys" that are real and objective, and can be revisited. Experiences in these lower realms are not rarefied or elevated; they can be scary and even hellish. (Example: being on DMT and vividly experiencing insects cutting you open.)

2) Psychedelics can also take you up into rarefied and "high" spiritual realms, that can transcend dark astral experiences. The farther into these realms one goes, the closer one gets to the blazing "sun" of pure bliss and joy.

3) The main difference between high spiritual realms and low astral dark "back alleys" visited while on psychedelics is the degree of joy, peace, bliss, and profound calmness and clarity - in short, love. The higher you are, the more you feel love and joy.

4) Pure "God-ness" is about joy, peace and love. Pure, intense love is the coin of the realm of the godhead.

4) One's own grey matter "chatter" and/or external physical stimuli can mix in with the valid objective inner realities experienced during a psychedelic trip. This can happen with both the dark, back alley type of trip, as well as the rarefied godhead type of trip.

This is analogous to how a dream during sleep can be mixed in with distorted input from one's physical surrounds, such as a noise in one's bedroom; or, from one's mental or emotional input. The dream is still there, but is mixed in with this other input. (Examples: A noise in one's bedroom and can be a feature on one's dream; a deep sorrow over a family member's death can color the emotional content of a dream.)

5) NDEs usually take place in a relatively rarefied, high inner realm, as evidenced the oft-reported high degree of joy, peacefulness, and profound love.

6) NDEs can also occur in dark astral back alleys, with little joy, calmness and peacefulness and lovingness. These occur seldom.

7) NDEs, statistically speaking, are more likely to transport a randomly selected subject to markedly higher spiritual realms than are psychedelic trips.

8) That said, in the hands of a skilled, seasoned trip guide, overseeing days and even weeks or months of concentrated preparation, the likelihood of a peaceful joyous, elevated trip can approach 100%. I believe the MAPS website may well have a link to handbooks about this -- or, maybe I saw such materials on the Erowid website...? I don't remember right off where I've seen such handbooks. For sure, such handbooks exist, as do qualified guides.

9) Psychedelics almost always can only take you just so high - and, when they wear off, you have to go back. If you what to stay high and get higher, in almost all cases, you have to roll up your sleeves and get there the old-fashioned way, through long efforts using good techniques.

**************

These are some of my working assumptions about psychedelics and NDEs, subject to revision.

Very good, James Oeming. Too bad this thread isn't active any more.

I've personally held onto a rather simplistic explanation for the qualitative differences between NDE/vision experiences and those typically brought on by drug/occult experimentation: There are a variety of different dimensions, not all of which share the same methods of access. It looks like at least one person might have elaborated on a similar belief above.

Also, I do not understand why a dimension of insectlike creatures is improbable in and of itself. What would be a more normal and expected thing to find in a non-afterlife alternate spacial dimension? Organisms just like us? I've seen stranger things in religious contexts, including organisms that by sight alone I would not have been able to identify as organisms (or as anything in particular); to me there is no longer a baseline for normality outside of my "home" world. It is what it is.

Love all the comments. Ditto Violet and No One as insects are more common life forms in our world, it's likely that they have evolved in another.

Also if there is a unified consciousness underlying reality. Then whether by a NDE or a drug, I think both are possible means to free up the ego and allow one to experience an expanded consciousness.

Circumstances are often not ideal with drug talking, whether its the situation or psychological makeup of the person. So I can see how these factors may play a part in the experience. People react differently to drugs, and the dose they used would also be causal. So I can see how some drug experiences may have more hallucinogenic components than others perhaps.

But having said that, I feel that no one experience is necessarily more valid than another e.g. the angst that precipitated the drug taking may be the factor that is predominant in the experience. And one type experience does not explain all. Lyn x.

I mean drug taking?? Lyn x.

Here, FWIW, is an improved version:

Midnight Sun

My candle burns at neither end
It will not flash with light
(No shadow foe, no shadow friend)
But glow in Mother Night

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