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And maybe they consumed something they didn't want to mention.

Hmmm......I think you are on to something there, Roger. A little yerba del diablo, perhaps (Datura)? That would do it - and, in Mexico, it is a plant concoction associated with witchcraft.

Michael this brings to mind what you wrote in your earlier post about mysticism and madness:

||For millennia, mystical adepts have warned casual enthusiasts not to get caught up in things beyond their ken. It’s worth keeping these injunctions in mind.||

Thanks for another great post.

I have seen similar states from meditators on occasion, after long sesshins(Zen intensive one week meditation )

They where on drugs... actually I don't believe that Ouija boards can attract any spirits... in Argentina, even children play with them and I've never seen anything paranormal... just stories... played myself: nothing happened. I think Ouija boards are just as paranormal as any other board game.

What's the fascination with "evil" spirits anyway... do they even exist?

Meditation can produce similar effects yes. Perhaps this is why a teacher or guru is advocated.

"What's the fascination with 'evil' spirits anyway... do they even exist?"

Sadly, I think they do. Consider the book "The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts," by Joe Fisher. Also consider the many cases of demonic possession, at least some of which seem to have genuine paranormal elements. And there are hellish NDEs and occasional reports of OBEs in which the person visits a frightening realm.

I just watched a video documentary on Netflix called "wake up" about a man in the USA who one day found that he was able to see ghosts, angels, and demons everywhere. It's not a bad film. He had brain scans and saw psychiatrists and he was normal and healthy.

It seems there are spirits other than human "ghosts" like demons and angels. I have read and heard accounts of people that encounter angels who say that they are very tall, massive. Padre Pio is a famous example of someone with visions like this.

Actually... I don't think that real "evil" spirits exist. I think either they are spirits who lack evolution (or who are genuinely bad and they are being rehabilitated), or the energy resulting from bad people ideas and vibes.

Considering NDEs, I think there is an hallucinatory component: People cross to the other side and take there whatever is with them in their mind, so if they are frightened of death they could experience hellish NDEs or whatever they expect to find. If we go through a life review then it's unlikely that after this some people remain evil after death... I think the life review is a huge rehab and lesson system.

Paranormal elements in case of demonic possession could be attributed to enhanced PSI.

There is some accord about that the spirit world exalts the highest of human values such as love, compassion and unity. A place for evil spirits in such a world is only possible in some place that could resemble a hospital o rehab center for those souls who have had very hard lives or took "bad" decisions.

"It seems there are spirits other than human "ghosts" like demons and angels. I have read and heard accounts of people that encounter angels who say that they are very tall, massive. Padre Pio is a famous example of someone with visions like this."

Also Lorna Byrne.

If spirits exist and are simply humans in some other form, it seems reasonable to expect the same or a similar range of human characteristics.

I agree Michael. That hungry ghost book is something I don't even want to read. Silly? I don't know but it just sends chills "intuitively?" I'm not sure. David R. I saw the same documentary on Netflix. Interesting.

"That hungry ghost book is something I don't even want to read. "

Same here. I actually bought the book, but then never read it. When I stopped to consider that the author killed himself because of the events he describes, I thought: why immerse myself in such a dreary scenario, even second-hand? Since I already believe that sort of thing (spirit influence) does happen, what's there to learn here, or be uplifted by, or even enjoy?

Those malicious entities may have gained a foothold in Fisher's life, but I don't have to let them into mine, even vicariously.

Anybody want the book cheap?

I'd recommend the hungry ghost book. I didn't find it scary in a sort of 'exorcist' way, more a warning to be on guard in the same way as when dealing with people we don't really know in the here-and-now.

The ostensible communicators came across more as conmen than overtly dangerous mainly. Apart from the apparent manipulation of the mediums health.

I'm not so sure the events in the book necessarily precipitated the suicide tbh it seems to be that Joe had other problems in his life too.

Whatever the literal status of "evil" spirits, the phenomenological existence of such things is un-debatable. Whether in the realm of NDEs, demon possession cases, sleep paralysis, UFO abduction, schizophrenia, DMT (and other psychoactive substances), or ghost reports, there clearly seems to be a dark underbelly to the paranormal.

We often say "seeing is believing," but if believing can also be seeing then the manifestation of something evil almost certainly has less to do with any property of a Ouija board and more to do with the comportment of the person who is playing with it. Be careful what you wish for!

Long-time lurker, first time poster (who's trying his hardest not to sound like a salesman):

For anyone who's a bit too spooked by the Hungry Ghosts book, there's an online one I found a few years ago called, "Are you seeking the light or just dancing with the dark?" (A Google search will easily bring it up) which chronicles the author's experiences with malicious entities. It's an extremely informative, down-to-earth book, and it does so in a very neutral tone that doesn't try to scare you into believing anything, and is actually quite hopeful in its message without being religious.

Personally, I think it's hands-down the best spiritual books about malevolent entities I've ever read, and made me think twice about all the channeled material I read these days, and to look it over with a much more critical eye. In my opinion, all spiritual seekers would benefit greatly from reading it.

I haven't read that book, but info on it can be found here:

Ian, very interesting. Thank you. Went to the link. Pretty much agrees with my own perspective and findings.

One thing though; the author claims that *his* channeled guide, Ra, is the real deal - a positive being - while mostly the others are negative counterfeits. Seems like the seeds of contention, competition, control and all of that rot are potentially in that assertion. Then again, maybe it's true. This stuff can be so perplexing.

Sorry, I have to discredit Newton for the following:

"Tied directly into the one above, anyone using a Ouija board, or doing what is known as "auto writing," is always going to bring a negative, instead of a positive entity, to themselves. Ouija board use and auto-writing attract negative entities every time because of another situation, which is a lack of a sufficient "challenge" to the entity coming through. I explain this challenge procedure within the book, as it is too difficult to do adequately here in this list."

Newton needs to do a little more reading. I suggest Leonora Piper, Richard Hodgson, James Hyslop, Pearl Curran and Patience Worth and many, many others who either used the Ouija board or automatic writing to channel benevolent spirits. - AOD

I read to chapter six and frankly wasn't impressed. I couldn't stand much more of it.

I'm not saying it was all bad but there's a big ego talking in it as far as I can see; some obvious truths about the ability and motivation to mislead demonstrated by people (incarnate and discarnate) and a lot of new age thinking. Lots of unsupported opinion and much of the rest we have to take the author's word for.

Not for me I'm afraid.

When I saw the words "Atlantis" and "Lemuria" I just closed the book.

I can take many of New Age ideas with no problems, I myself accept the idea that we are all One (God). But reading "Ra" talking about the civilization of Mu was way too much.

"When I saw the words "Atlantis" and "Lemuria" I just closed the book"

Ah...ok. Now that I've taken a look at the book itself, as opposed to just the essay at the link, it's pretty goofy, IMO.

It looks as though I guessed right, in my comment atop this comment stream. Here's what the Daily Mail says now:

Orphan Alexandra Huerta, 16, used the Ouija board with her brother and cousin after taking powerful 'shamanic' drug Brugsmansia
In a video taken by paramedics that shocked the world this week she can be seen in the depths of 'possession'
MailOnline visited her in her shack in the remote Mexican village of Tepotzlan
Her guardians admitted that they had told the trio how to contact dead parents using the drug and the board
The drug is also known as Angel’s Trumpet for its large poisonous flowers, and induces dark hallucinations, confusion, muscle paralysis and can lead to death in large doses.

Good call, Rodger. Brugmansia is a solanaceous plant in the same family and closely related to Datura.
It causes delirium and true hallucinations (something the hallucinogens don't actually do).
The Datura/Brugmansia complex has a long history of use for purposes of "witchcraft" in Mexico, but it is extremely dangerous and very difficult to properly prepare and dose. People die every year as a result of dabbling with it.

Ian - just realised it was your first post. Sorry if I responded a bit too strongly :)

Zeilinger's reaction to the tests are also interesting. Although they show high probability for observer effects necessary to reality, he ends up saying information is physical and to give up realism is wrong.

Which shows how having science primarily based on materialism it very hard to let go of that premise and like Bernado Kastrap suggests, scientists can be highly illogical. Lyn x.

Although I may be taking him wrong. I think it is more correct to say observation creates reality, rather than information is concrete or material. That, that was a materialistic assumption he was making, although I may have interpreted him wrong after his realism comment. Lyn x.

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