Commenter J9 points me to this summary of Sam Parnia's forthcoming book, which apparently draws on the AWARE experiments:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread872432/pg1

From the summary, it doesn't sound as if there were any breakthroughs with regard to NDEs.

Comments

[Douglas]

I can't say I'm that suprised. It was never going to live up to the hyperbole of being the 'definitive paper on the NDE issue'.

I'm sure out of 1500 patients, there will be some good cases, but they are likely to be very much along the lines of those we have seen many times before.

It would be amazing if someone does spot a playing card on a shelf during their OBE ,but I've always found this idea a bit unlikely, right back when this project was mooted; is it really going to be the most important detail on your mind during an NDE?

While many OBE patients do convey much veridical information, for the most part it concerns the medical staff, what colour clothing they were wearing, what they said, procedures carried out, as well as what the relatives down the corridor are doing: in sum, they are concerned with circumstances directly concerning their NDE.

Will a random playing card on a shelf flag up? Maybe, after all, sometimes random objects do stick in the mind, like the 'running show on a window ledge NDE' that some here will be familiar with, but if it doesnt feature in any NDEs in this report, I don't think it really proves anything.

Still, I do actually expect a smattering of decent NDE accounts here, but they will be very much of the usual kind we are already familiar with, and while providing good evidence, they will also be argued against in just the same fashion by skeptics, so in conclusion, I don't think we will be any further foward when the paper is published.

But that's all speculation! Let's wait and see.

[no one]

I will make a prediction - well, two or three actually - that the book will not describe any successful observation of the random playing cards and that the book will provide medical explanations for NDEs that tend to run counter to the NDE/survival hypothesis.

I sense the thrust will be demonstrating that our instruments and methods of detecting physical death are not as refined or precise as we thought they were and that there is a need to develop better equipment and/or protocol.

NDEs will only be used to fortify the argument for this need to the extent that they prove some kind of awareness can persist after current technology declares death. There will be a mostly subtle undercurrent throughout the book pulling the reader toward the conclusion that the awareness associated with NDEs is most probably biological in nature. The lack of "hits" on the playing card will be used to validate the undercurrent.

Then, in conclusion, there will be some heady, yet interesting, philospical dialogue concerning the medical ethics around when death is declared, resucitation and life support issues as well as some comments in the same vein reagarding medical personnel behavior during and after patients' medical crises and apparent death.

This book will be written more for the mainstream "scientific" and medical crowd, than for those with an interest in the paranormal.

[someone]

Actually the part "has profound implications for the way we view death, and life...may point to interesting results..also in the last few years Parnia seems to be getting less skeptical of afterlife viewpoints, for instance saying on Dr. Oz that the entity that makes him Sam Parnia Doesn't die with the brain.

[Smithy]

Some weeks ago I had a discussion with Dr Pim van Lommel (author of "Consciousness beyond Life"), and we both agreed that the Aware study would probably yield very little evidence of veridical observations during the OBE's that might have occurred while being on the operating table. A patient experiencing an OBE/NDE is mainly interested in what is going on below him/her, i.e. their body, than searching through the operation theatre for specific signs. The times that this has happened were very few and far inbetween,and happened accidentally.

So, Parnia will be lucky if he can report at least one case with veridical observations. And then of course the skeptics will be most eager to dismiss such a report as nothing but fraud or whatever..

[someone]

Also, Parnia has always been concerned with the preservation of life and how to improve resuscitation techniques, so i am not too surprised that the bulk of the book will focus on that because that is the aspect of this study that medical science can actually utilize to better itself. The NDE being real part, is more abstract.

[no one]

Hmmmm.....here is a link to a 2012 article where parnia says the results of the AWARE probably won't be ready/available for three years.

ttp://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/33055601/ns/today-today_health/t/new-study-what-really-happens-when-you-die/

So I wonder to what extent the upcoming book will address the hows and whys of the study versus the findings; probably necessarily more weighted towards the former.

[someone]

No one, this study was realease it appears in 2009 or was it reaissued

[no one]

ah, I see that now, someone. You are right. So never mind then. maybe the book *will* speak to the results of the AWARE study.

One interesting aspect of the study that I was unaware of and just learned about today is that participating hospitals will have been taking accurate blood oxygen level readings on patients. The results of that part of the study may shed light on the hypoxia theory of NDE generation.

[someone]

Didn't Sam Parnia write an article on NDEs in which he said he didn't think that resuscitation efforts couldn't deliver the right amount of oxygen to the brain to produce such experiences

[RabbitDawg]

The book summary lamely describes the possibility of "brain cells going into hibernation", therefore the study verifies consciousness extending beyond the grasp of current medical science.
At the very least, this will present one a heck of a dilemma for organ transplant ethics.

[someone]

Has anybody tried to contact Dr. Parnia and ask him anything?

[Leo]

Through the Amazon link Dr. Sam Parnia says its seems clear that, The 'dead' can remember things, and do have some awareness while they're 'out of action'. So it does look like that is further evidence of at least awareness and remembering things that could not of remembered while being in cardiac arrest and a compromised brain.

[lynn]

Although I know as a researcher Dr Pania needs to cover all bases, and acknowledge that the borders of what constitutes survival are stretching. And we are still deciding on what constitutes consciousness.

I think the evidence is still overwhelming, and the focus of science needs to broaden.

People still come back from death having seen and heard loved ones, and met those they didn't know, or bring back information they had no way of knowing. And this fails to be addressed.

Nor the fact, that irrespective of confounding variables, consciousness and the near death experience remains the same.

Even if it is suggested there is a universal record that mediums, or those with psi dip into. It seems odd that mediums speak in terms of personal trivia e.g. "that you keep your dead boyfriends ring in your pocket". Or as my dead father told me, what planes would soon be in view ahead, and which was my daughters and when it would land.

This points to me of a very personal observing intelligence, one that thinks on the go. Just my thoughts. Lyn x.

[Joshua Cearley]

This whole study makes me nervous; I get the impression they're going to base the whole result of NDEs being illusory or not on the target cards, that it will fail (do the people know to look for it? or is it just hoped somebody is both going to have an NDE they remember, which is also anchored to their body, and that they will chance across the cards; the total number of NDEs that are remembered AND anchored AND have reported non-audio data that was verifiable is very low), and that it will be used by skeptics to choke off all afterlife research in the future.

[Roger Knights]

No One wrote:

NDEs will only be used to fortify the argument for this need to the extent that they prove some kind of awareness can persist after current technology declares death. There will be a mostly subtle undercurrent throughout the book pulling the reader toward the conclusion that the awareness associated with NDEs is most probably biological in nature. The lack of "hits" on the playing card will be used to validate the undercurrent.

.........................

This book will be written more for the mainstream "scientific" and medical crowd, than for those with an interest in the paranormal.

That applies to things the patient might have heard. But, if his eyes were closed, only a paranormal explanation could account for things he correctly reported seeing--especially things out of his line of sight (if he peeked, somehow).

[Roger Knights]

Douglas wrote:

“It would be amazing if someone does spot a playing card on a shelf during their OBE ,but I've always found this idea a bit unlikely, right back when this project was mooted; is it really going to be the most important detail on your mind during an NDE?”

Parnia could and should have closed off this escape hatch by laying visual identifiers on the patient’s ankles. If no patients who claimed to have seen their body could report the ID correctly, we’d be pushed back to special pleading.

OTOH, if all such patients correctly identified it, scoftics would have to engage in more unconvincing special pleading than usual. Some would even throw in the towel.

Finally, if some patients correctly reported the ID, the weight of their testimony would increase with the percentage of such “hits” in the total “I saw my body” pool. Only after-the-fact collusion between patients and members of the hospital’s medical staff could provide a non-paranormal explanation for an above-chance hit-percentage in that group. The likelihood of collusion could be virtually eliminated by questioning the non-reporting patients as to whether they’d been tipped off as to the ID by anyone. If such tip-offs were virtually zero for the non-reporters, it’s reasonable to assume they’d be roughly the same for the reporters. In such a situation, the experiment would have yielded strong suggestive evidence, though not proof, and further experimentation would be in order.

The ID device I suggest is a large square facecloth of one of seven colors, stored atop a light fixture, where they would be out of the way. It could be left unfolded, or folded into one of the following six shapes and arrangements:

Rectangular (folded side to side) and arranged either vertically (along the legs) or horizontally (across the legs).
Triangular (folded corner to corner) and arranged with its right angle pointing up, down, left, or right.

Two numerals would be temporarily glued or taped to the facecloth. These would give 100 possible choices. Multiplied by the seven shape-arrangements and the seven colors, there’d be 4900 possible IDs. So coincidental hits would be negligible.

[no one]

"That applies to things the patient might have heard. But, if his eyes were closed....."

I'm with you, Roger. I am just referring to the frequently encountered skeptical argument that one can create visual imagery - accurate visual imagery of complex medical technology and hospital situations - purely from auditory cues.

[Duck soup]

I don't know what everyone is getting at here, I really don't. Where does it say that the experiments haven't produced any hits ? Parnia has said that the results cannot be released piecemeal. If he did that the whole study including the pilot phase would be ruined.
It all has to be released properly. Have a bit of faith and stop panicking, whatever happens his comments are already very significant or have you not understood ?

'Dead' patients should not have any memories of their time out and it seems that they do. And that is very, very significant.

[Michael Prescott]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not 'panicking.' I never had very high expectations for the Aware study. Unlike experiments in the physical sciences, psychology experiments - experiments involving human beings - are inevitably going to be subject to interpretation. It's a category error to think that a single experiment in the social sciences can definitely resolve a controversy in the same way that a single experiment in, say, physics or chemistry can.

[Duck soup]

I know you're not panicking, Michael :-)
I just don't understand where all these wild assumptions about the study are coming from.
Parnia has never said..."As soon as I get a hit I'll let everyone know"... to my knowledge. That would be the most amateurish, nonsensical methodology possible. Not only would it influence the study with bias, the wild headlines in the press would have the participating hospitals overrun with journalists.

Let's all just wait and see, sceptics included.

[Sophie]

I wonder whether Dr Parnia's research, resting on cardiac arrest NDE cases, isn't already trumped by the cessation of brain activity NDEs: that of Pam Reynolds and of the neurosurgeon Eben Alexander? Whereas it is arguable that cardiac arrest does not fully arrest brain function, and that therefore the NDEs that accompany some cardiac arrests are in fact brain chemistry/activity products, that argument is not available when the brain has ceased to function. At least, I've not come upon any such argument.

[Duck soup]

Sophie,

Cardiac arrest equals death. That's a fact.
Brain function is completely irradicated.

[Sophie]

Hello Duck soup,

This is pretty commonplace information about cardiac arrest: '... brain damage can occur within four to six minutes after the heart has stopped.' http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/brainarrest.htm

So persons revived after cardiac arrest have a space of brain-activity time after cardiac arrest. The NDE can, arguably, occur in that time, in which case it can be said to be a product of the brain.

[lynn]

The main argument put forward by science, is at what time does the brain cease to function, and therefore what could be determined as consciousness.

Like I say, I think he has to acknowledge the arguments out there. People, particularly children, have had a good result after spending up to an hour under ice. The metabolic rate is so reduced that the brain uses very little oxygen, and therefore is able to survive.

The picture is also complicated by CPR and the administration of oxygen. Now I have personally done CPR on a patient who arrested in a hospital, intubated, then administered oxygen and adrenaline, and maintained compression for over half an hour with good results. So the 6 minutes becomes obsolete.

The next argument is I guess, what is consciousness, and does it survive outside the body. So during this time, if the brain is functioning, are people having an OBE? As there is still debate over what constitutes consciousness.

How you explain talking to the recently deceased etc, and the various other components of near death, is less explainable however.

But I think we are stuck on these arguments regarding consciousness for a while.

Cheers Lyn.

[Michael Prescott]

"I wonder whether Dr Parnia's research, resting on cardiac arrest NDE cases, isn't already trumped by the cessation of brain activity NDEs: that of Pam Reynolds and of the neurosurgeon Eben Alexander?"

Reynolds' brain activity didn't cease until after the vertical part of her NDE was over, so her case doesn't prove much in that regard.

[meow]

Michael,

"Reynolds' brain activity didn't cease until after the vertical part of her NDE was over"

I think you mean "veridical" ;)

[pat]

"it is arguable that cardiac arrest does not fully arrest brain function, and that therefore the NDEs that accompany some cardiac arrests are in fact brain chemistry/activity products"

*All* measurable brain activity is *gone* 10-20 seconds after the onset of cardiac arrest because there is a massive reduction in the flow of blood, oxygen, and nutrients to the brain. Ask any MMA fighter to describe the experience of a 10-second properly-applied "rear naked choke" - if any experience can be recalled, it's always fragments of information in an incoherent narrative lacking logical structure with only the smallest bits of awareness. But the rear raked choke (which pinches the arteries feeding the brain) is only a *fraction* of what happens to the brain after the onset of cardac arrest.

And yet NDEs after the onset of cardiac arrest often include a massaive INCREASE in cognition. Moreover, cardiac arrest NDErs are able to describe the details of their own resuscitations more accurately than cardiac arrest victims who lack NDEs and *sometimes* that includes details that occur more than 20 seconds *after* the onset but *before* the initiation of CPR (during a time when brain activity should, on conventional models, be absent or negligible).

- Pat

[Pat]

I wrote (in part),

"that includes details that occur more than 20 seconds *after* the onset but *before* the initiation of CPR"

I should have wored that ab it more carefully. I should have put it in the following way to avoid any confusion (note the caps):

"that includes details that occur more than 20 seconds *after* the onset OF CARDIAC ARREST but *before* the initiation of CPR"

- Pat

[lynn]

Unfortunately, you can argue these points in circles. When did the near death occur with regard to flat-lining, and that at some point the brain was functioning. One of the arguments is that they were in fact clearly not dead, i.e. the brain must have got sufficient oxygen otherwise they wouldn't have survived.

Drugs can also mask brain function. A family member of mine received medication while severely ill which suppressed brain activity, and the doctors determined he was brain dead and wanted to take him off life support. It was only when family interfered, and told them he seemed aware that they were in the room, that doctors realized they had erred.

Unfortunately you can't experiment on the dead, and it leaves field studies to examine the other factors involved in near death, which could be argued as indicating causal relationships.

The near death experience is much more vast than how conscious we were at the point of death however.

People are profoundly changed, unlike pilots who have tunnel effects due to G forces.

In Psychology Today, August 2012 Edition for example, tells how Pam Barrett who was Alberta's New Democratic Party Leader had a near death experience while in the dentists chair. She was told by god to take a "new path", and the next day held a press conference to announce her retirement from politics.

Then there is Mellon Thomas Benedict's experience, which has led to a number of scientific patents based on information brought back with him. And as one scientist working with him explained, 'you can't bluff your way through this, you either know it, or you don't".

Thoughts? Lyn x.

[lynn]

Posting often come after, just seen your post "Pat". I agree, lucidity of thoughts are certainly questionable with low oxygen levels.

But people who are deeply unconscious also relate back to family, as my cousin who was deeply medicated, showed he was aware.

But scientist argue low oxygen levels leads to hallucinatory affects etc, and whether near death experience is a function of the brain, like a default.

Its a hard one to get around. Cheers Lyn.

[Michael Prescott]

'I think you mean "veridical" ;)'

Curse you, autocorrect!

"Unfortunately, you can argue these points in circles. When did the near death occur with regard to flat-lining, and that at some point the brain was functioning."

Right, but all I'm saying is that the part of the operation that Reynolds described took place before the surgical team induced clinical death. She was anesthetized and sensorily isolated (eyes taped shut, ears plugged), but her brain activity had not ceased. Later in the procedure, her brain did stop functioning, but she did not report seeing that part of the surgery.

[Duck soup]

Sophie,
The 'slot' so to speak to fit the NDE into after cardiac arrest is 10 seconds or so. Many veridical cardiac arrest NDE's contain observations that occured way beyond that.
It's not reasonable to argue that the NDE is consciously created in total.... in 10 seconds after the heart stops because the onset is so quick there is no time to organise such a complex experience.

The sceptics of course persist with splitting hairs because they have to, otherwise the game is up.

[Duck soup]

Michael said> Right, but all I'm saying is that the part of the operation that Reynolds described took place before the surgical team induced clinical death. She was anesthetized and sensorily isolated (eyes taped shut, ears plugged), but her brain activity had not ceased. Later in the procedure, her brain did stop functioning, but she did not report seeing that part of the surgery."

This is not the opinion of the conductor of the operation or the assistant surgeon Greene. This is the speculation of a certain 'sceptical' doctor who was not present but who shall remain nameless.

After anesthesia was induced she was then given a drug that flattened all her brainwaves.

[lynn]

My cousin similarly showed awareness even though his brain function was severely compromised by drug induced coma.

But I agree Michael that the arguments defy logic. I can see however, that the perimeters of medical understanding are changing though, and I think the more science discovers the better.

Just watched a program on Discovery after posting, called Surviving Death. Showing the longest survivor yet, who the program suggested was dead for 3 hours- he was trapped under icy water for two, then it took another hour to get the heart beating and show brain function.

He was also the coldest survivor yet,just 64 degrees, and was so stiff that they had problems doing heart compressions.

Yet he experienced near death, and Dr Parnia spoke on the program.

Although we can expect that if there is respiratory and cardiac arrest along with no brain activity, that a person is dead. The standing joke Dr Parnia says, "is how warm was he dead".

Certainly the parameters are changing, and the body is sometimes put into hibernation during surgery, and just what is happening to the brain, I think they are still determining.

I don't know, I don't have too much problem with it, more that isolating parts of the experience in this way, neglects the "whole". Lyn x.

[Duck soup]

Hi, Lyn,
Ward Krenz, right ? He was dead by every known criteria and EMT's could not perform chest compressions because he was frozen stiff (looked like a cadaver). The hospital actually told Ward's father he was dead but rather experimentally connected him up to a heart lung machine to slowly warm the body back up and see what would happen. And yes he did have an NDE.

[lynn]

I'm feeling like a naughty girl now (:

Came late into the program and wasn't sure if Ward was a surname or christian one. Fascinating though wasn't it Duck Soup? They are asking now, how cold can you get?

Honestly, I'm a great believer in the afterlife. Many scientists would say though that anomalies in consciousness, cognition etc, are just that, and they haven't all the answers yet. And I don't agree with all of it, but I can see where they are coming from, that's all. Lyn x.

[Duck soup]

"Honestly, I'm a great believer in the afterlife."

So am I, Lynn and yes it was fascinating. Here is part of Ward's report.

"I knew I was gonna die. It's hard to describe. I saw something but I can't even describe what i saw. It was almost like a dream at first, like having a newborn coming into the new world. It's all wonderful, it's everything. You can't explain it.
Take your best feeling ever, you've ever had, and multiply it by millions and that's what it felt like. I mean, it's indescribable."

Thanks for the kind reply, Lyn.

[Sophie]

Why are several people insisting that there are only seconds between cardiac arrest and brain death? Are you saying that the following information is wrong? If so, on what grounds?

'The American Heart Association estimates that fewer than 8 percent of people who suffer cardiac arrest in a home or community setting will survive, and that brain damage can occur within four to six minutes after the heart has stopped.' http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/brainarrest.htm

I think it has to be admitted that while some part of the brain remains undamaged, NDEs are reasonably attributable to brain activity. That's why I am so excited about Dr Eben Alexander's NDE. His brain was, on his own account as a neurologist, dead on every level. And he was in that condition for seven days.

[Duck soup]

Why are several people insisting that there are only seconds between cardiac arrest and brain death?

I don't understand what you're getting at, Sophie. Brain death is the irreversible destruction of the brain cells and cannot be reversed.
After 10 seconds in cardiac arrest, the brain shuts down (consciousness ceases) but this is not brain death... but it can become brain death if the oxygen supply is not restored to the cells in a certain variable.. but usually 4 minute period (in normal temperatures).
The drugs given to the experimetal mice are clearly giving extra time to the brain cells to be deprived of owygen without damage.

[Duck soup]

"I think it has to be admitted that while some part of the brain remains undamaged, NDEs are reasonably attributable to brain activity. "

That's not right, with respect. NDE's have to be attributable to consciousness or a fuctioning brain (the cortex) and that is lost in cardiac arrest.

[Duck soup]

I should say 'have to be attributable to a conscious or functioning brain if materialism is correct.'

[Michael Prescott]

"This is not the opinion of the conductor of the operation or the assistant surgeon Greene... After anesthesia was induced she was then given a drug that flattened all her brainwaves."

I assume you're referring to this quote:

'Dr. Karl Greene, who was on the team of surgeons, asked, "Why would she have this kind of information if she was so deeply under a barbiturate infusion of medications that should be shutting down her brain?"'

But I think he was speaking loosely here. The medications he mentions are (I believe) standard anesthetics. They don't cause the brain to flatline. Flatlining occurred only later, when hypothermia was induced. This took place after the veridical part of her NDE.

[Duck soup]

Hi, Michael,
With respect that's not correct. She was given thiopental barbiturate aswell as general anesthesia. The barbiturate was given second place. Spetzler says so here...that drug has the power to get rid of all your brainwaves. at 2.30 minutes.

I emailed Dr Spetzler recently and recieved a reply from his secretary in which she stated that the brain surgeons at the barrow institute require the brainwaves to be flat when performing craniotomies of this kind.

[Duck soup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw

Sorry..here.

[Sophie]

Duck soup: 'NDE's have to be attributable to consciousness or a fuctioning brain (the cortex) and that is lost in cardiac arrest.'

I don't think anyone has legislated here. Besides, remember that the materialist position includes the proposition that not all the functions of the brain are known, so any sort of brain activity 'might' account for NDEs. Also, recall that Dr Alexander has said that his cortex had completely shut down, and his brain was not exhibiting any sort of activity. Does that not sound like brain death to you? Yet in his case, it was reversed.

So this is what I'm on about: after cardiac arrest there is an interim of up to ten minutes before the brain is damaged. That just happens to be fact. And the brain must be presumed capable of activity in that interim. (Have you not read the article on the link I posted?)

[Duck soup]

Sophie,
Frankly I'm baffled by what you are trying to say.
Dr Alexander's cortex was indeed shut down, I agree. Forgive me but you don't seem to understand the difference between 'shut down' and dead (brain death). Brain death is not reversible. Dr Alexander's case is of course excellent evidence that the mind CAN function without the brain because his brain was 'soaking in puss'and wasn't functioning.

You said "So this is what I'm on about: after cardiac arrest there is an interim of up to ten minutes before the brain is damaged. That just happens to be fact."

Well I'm sorry but that is not a fact. Four minutes is the generally accepted time beyond which brain damage occurs but it depends on the circumstances and the temperature at the time.
And yes I have read the article but it is irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Where does it state in General Medicine that the brain must be presumed capable of activity up to ten minutes after cardiac arrest ? That's a truly bizarre statement.

[MitiL]

Hi 2All! :)

First of all, as I got it we have TWO different books here - "The Lazarus Effect" (initially discussed at AboveTopSecret):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lazarus-Effect-Science-Rewriting-Boundaries/dp/1846043077/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348430630&sr=1-1

and "Erasing Death" (a quite restrained synopsis cited at ATS by the same user BailSnail):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Erasing-Death-Science-Rewriting-Boundaries/dp/0062080601/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348430630&sr=1-3

Both of them are certainly related to AWARE study and its results.

Michael says:
From the summary, it doesn't sound as if there were any breakthroughs with regard to NDEs.

IMHO the only REAL breakthrough that could happen in this case is if those pictures reported correctly by several patients (or at least a couple of them). Only this would be a real smoking gun, like a stellar parallax for the Heliocentric model of the Solar System (BTW, it took almost three centuries for astronomers to find it, lol...)
It isn't clear if any veridical visual info was got by Parnia's flatliners but I think some info perhaps has been collected.
It's a very poor chance to note pictures lying and facing the ceiling(!) which is very close to the shelves, so personally I wasn't expecting too much here. I also know that Parnia must be very careful about making claims and sensations, so perhaps it's another reason for a so restrained synopsis.
N.B. I mean the summary of "Erazing Death", not "The Lazarus Effect" which probably doesn't deal in the first place with NDEs, OBEs and their veracity at all.

[Sophie]

Duck soup: 'And yes I have read the article but it is irrelevant to what we are discussing.' Seriously, are you saying that the following quotation from that article is irrelevant?

'The American Heart Association estimates that fewer than 8 percent of people who suffer cardiac arrest in a home or community setting will survive, and that brain damage can occur within four to six minutes after the heart has stopped.'
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/brainarrest.htm

But then, you said this too:
Cardiac arrest equals death. That's a fact.
Brain function is completely irradicated.
Posted by: Duck soup | September 22, 2012 at 03:58 PM

So the bulk of NDE reporters (cardiac arrest cases) had in fact died? So who reported their NDEs? Come now.

[Sophie]

Duck soup and anyone else interested (and I promise this is my last post on the subject!): This is Dr Eben Alexander III speaking. Please note his 'up to ten minutes':

'After many minutes up to tens of minutes or so of no blood flow, flow might then be restored and what remained of the brain would begin to heal. Permanent damage to brain cells begins after four minutes of zero blood flow. Often, neurons in that situation go into an idling mode from which they may be rescued to start functioning again, at least partially, depending on their reserves and on the time they are without blood flow. Longer periods of cardiac arrest lead to more diffuse brain damage, and under most conditions are not survivable after tens of minutes.'
http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/synthesis

[Duck soup]

I see what you are referring to..at last, thankyou, Sophie.

To survive cardiac arrest is more accurately defined as 'temporary death'. Parnia actually refers to his cases of NDE during cardiac arrest.. as 'actual death' experiences or 'temporary death experiences' (TDE'S). Brain function is irradicated (but can be restored if the brain cells are not damaged) so no experience should be possible according to current neuroscience.

You said> So the bulk of NDE reporters (cardiac arrest cases) had in fact died? So who reported their NDEs? Come now.

It's 'death' in inverted commas. Yes, the patient IS DEAD at the time but death is reversisble up to 4 minutes etc. Brain death, where the cells have decayed is not reversible but doctors don't and can't possibly know when that exact point is.