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"The same seems to hold true, by the way, for so-called alien abductions, which have much in common with NDEs. I don't think there are real, physical aliens abducting people, but there may be an element of the OBE that corresponds to this experience and which is (mis)interpreted as being physically real. Shamanic vision quests, often precipitated by ingesting hallucinogens, follow a similar pattern."

Michael, did you read Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule? I just read it and am amazed at how precisely many DMT trips mimic alien abduction accounts. Years ago, I read John Mack's books on abduction, and was greatly intrigued.

But for years, though I kept looking, I wasn't able to find continuing research along the same lines to corroborate Mack's findings. (After the early flurry of books by Jacobs and Hopkins.) But there it is, in an unexpected place--the 10 -minute journeys of DMT users, which contain countless details matching what Mack's clients described.

Suddenly, I'm interested in aliens again. :o) My current best guess is that they are real, and that at least some of them reside in the spiritual dimensions, which we can visit in altered states, or when we "die."

It would make sense, since many NDErs, from Betty Eadie on up, describe visiting other worlds and beings. Not to mention the shamans that you refer to.

Hey, even one of our most respected Americans--Edgar Mitchell, who walked on the moon--has no doubt that aliens are real, and that they are here. (I'm not sure though, whether Mitchell thinks we can contact them internally within our own consciousness.)

What do you think?

Interestingly I like the Borgia books specifically because of their detail. An afterlife must have some type of physical detail, or else I would assume it's more likely that such a world does not exist at all.

When you cannot add substance to an environment, it sounds more like a dream. I can describe a dream to you, but I cannot say what the walls are made out of, or the affect of physics, because it's all being created in an insubstantial mental environment that lacks the objective richness of "real life".

Borgia books, as well as the even-more suspect Chico Xavier books, attempt to provide an interpretation like "Look, the afterlife is real, and this is what it's like to REALLY be there".

I don't know much about Anthony Borgia, I don't know what investigations into him have uncovered, but I find myself far more drawn to "Life in the World Unseen" than any other spiritual book, and I've read it several times.

Both "Life" as well as the Leslie Flint recordings, provide very detailed accounts of the ethereal Earth-like environments that include details involving what people actually do on a 'day to day' basis.

Certain NDEs as well as popular literature have described the afterlife as a completely surrealistic environment. No physical form, but an abstract realm of shapes and metaphors, completely insubstantial. While this makes for an interesting concept, on a practical level this isn't much different than "extinction" as defined by materialism, as "you", and your world, are completely replaced by something that is beyond description, turning whatever you were before into something that's essentially extinct.

The more 'physical' realms explored in other literature at least show that there's a progression between some type of indescribable higher-plane, and post-death existence where people can still be themselves, reunite with deceased loved ones, lead a human lifestyle, and so on. This system, to me, seems more relatable if the afterlife concept is true.

"I was just beginning to learn about NDEs when I read Flatland, and was startled at how closely A. Square's accidental journey to the the 3-dimensional world resembled an NDE, even in respect to its aftermath."

I just reread that book over the past two days, Bruce. It's a true classic - a book that gains in meaning every time you revisit it. Not only is it a geometry lesson, it's also a social satire and a metaphysical speculation ... and I can't help thinking it contains some rather pointed satire on skeptics of the paranormal as well. I plan to do a post or two about it before long.

I did read Strassman's book. My best guess is that alien abductions are OBEs misinterpreted as physical experiences. There are many similarities between OBEs/NDEs and so-called abductions, starting with the claim of some abductees that they rose out of bed and floated through the bedroom wall. (They attribute this to advanced alien technology - a rationalization, in my view.) Many abductees report feeling a vibration throughout their body just prior to the start of the experience; vibration is also commonly reported by OBErs at the onset of their adventures.

"It's a true classic - a book that gains in meaning every time you revisit it."

When I was a kid, I had a friend who was a math whiz. He loved Flatland, and enjoyed talking about its whimsical approach to his favorite subject. So I've known the contents of the book forever, but who would have guessed that, decades later, it would take on an infinitely deeper meaning for me.

You're right--it engages on so many levels. I suppose Gulliver's Travels--another many-worlds book that works as a social satire--might be in a similar category.

"My best guess is that alien abductions are OBEs misinterpreted as physical experiences."

It's been a while since I read the classic accounts in Mack's books, but I do know that your explanation can't be applied to the DMT accounts. These experiencers are certain that the encounter with "other" is real, yet they do not interpret it as a physical event--by which I mean one that can be observed by others in the same room who are not under the influence.

They use "real'' in a different sense: they say they are visiting a domain that as genuine as ours, but in some way separate from it.

It's true that their experiences seem physical because they often involve intense sensations of, for example, being probed, eaten, raped, or participating in hugely enjoyable sex-like activities. But again, DMT experiencers understand that the events are not happening in our physical reality.

So do you still think there is some sort of misinterpretation taking place?

Well, so-called alien abductees - not DMT volunteers, but regular folks who were totally unprepared for their adventure - typically insist the experience was physical, so (if the OBE theory is right) they are misinterpreting it. The DMT patients differ, but of course they already knew they were participating in a laboratory experiment involving mind-altering drugs, so they would have less reason to think in terms of a physical tractor beam lifting their physical body into a physical spaceship. Plus, they were under observation the whole time, so they were getting feedback to reassure them that their physical body hadn't gone anywhere.

OBEs can feel every bit as real as ordinary experience, if not more so; interpreting them as physical experiences is probably pretty easy to do, especially if someone has never had (or even heard of) an OBE.

this DMT discussion makes you wonder, if all of these alien abductees are tripping out on DMT, how exactly are they doing it?

I would like to trip out and see these aliens. Not the probe thing though

I believe DMT is produced naturally by the body. Perhaps some people are unusually sensitive to it, or produce more of it. Just speculation.

However, I'm not saying that DMT is the only way of having these experiences. I'm inclined to think that anything that disrupts brain activity to a sufficient extent may cancel the normal "filter" effect of the nervous system and allow consciousness to access states of being that are normally filtered out. This would be true whether the disruption is caused by DMT, LSD, ketamine, nitrous oxide, a heart attack, a stroke, anesthesia, etc. Some people may have (or may learn) the ability to shut the down the filter effect more or less at will by using meditative techniques.

Getting myself back together and passing through my fav. blog.........this is an interesting discussion re; DMT.

DMT is everywhere. It naturally occurs in the human brain and it naturally occurs in varying concentrations in a large number of plants of various families and genuses (genae? geni?). Some of these plants are even among those that people eat on a fairly regular basis (depending on culture).

Here's the thing. DMT is not orally active. You could eat a bag full of pure DMT and not experience any psychoactive effects - unless, for some reason, you had combined the DMT consumption with an MAO inhibiter (this inhibits the normal oxidizing processes in the stomach that chemically break DMT down into a non-active compound). In fact, this combination of DMT containing plant/food material and an MAO inhibiter (also from a plant source) is exactly what makes the psychedelic south american drink, ayhuasca, work its magic.

So, it is conceivable that a person could, quite unwittingly, enjoy a DMT rich diet and then one day also consume, in some form, an MAO inhibiter, and experience a classic DMT trip. Not understanding the cause and seeking an explanation that fits the data, alien abduction would be a reasonable, albeit unsophisticated, rational.

Could happen.

That said, I think Michael's theory of misunderstood OBEs is more likely the case. It really fits the details in alien abduction accounts very well. I say this based on my own OBE experiences, esp. the first few - as well as on my having used DMT experimentally.

On this latter point, I was very much expecting to see elves and aliens doing their thing in other dimensions, etc because I had read accounts where these where common features. I did not encounter these beings. Instead, I found that DMT propelled me into a very intense and very strange mind expanded state that I couldn't make use of. It was like I was pointlessly and helplessly/hopelessly blasted out of my gourd for ten minutes (thank god only ten minutes!) that seemed like an eternity (without going into details concerning hows and whos, the DMT was really DMT and was pure). It was not at all like LSD or psilocybin, both of which have resulted in some very spiritual jouirneys (for me at least).

I tried the DMT a couple more times thinking that my first disappointing experience might have been dosage related. Same qualitative results at a lower and at a higher dosage; only quantitatively different. Not a drug that is useful or good for me. Not one I would recommend. Not at all like Strassman or McKenna describes, but maybe that's just me.

Or maybe there is a dif. between smoking DMT (the method of ingestion I used) and injecting it (which I believe is Strassman's method of administration). Again, don't know and don't care to find out.

Hmm, I've never had an OBE or NDE before. I seriously want to induce DMT and see it for myself.

Maybe I should be like susan blackmore and smoke a lot of pot. Strange because I've never heard of pot smokers having NDEs or OBEs. I think she sprinkled a little extra on her weed

I wouldn't recommend experimenting with DMT in an unsupervised way. It's a potentially dangerous drug. Same goes for other hallucinogens.

I'd advise practicing meditation, guided-imagery exercises, etc. Much safer.

Or see if you can learn lucid dreaming. Some people have an aptitude for it.

passenger, I have never heard about an OBE from anyone I know that smokes pot, attributed to the pot use. Though I have known people that use marijuana and also have had OBEs. I do not like cannabis, personally, as it doesn't do much for me that is positive and does some things that are negative. I tend to avoid it these days. Some people really like, though.

I do not know where you would obtain DMT on the street. Most likely it would be something else, or be adultrated with something else. I **strongly** urge you not to ingest any drug you buy off a dealer, even if you know the person well. You just don't know what it is (and neither does he), or how much of it, you are putting into your body and brain.

As I stated previously, I am not enamored with the DMT experience. In fact, I found it useless and annoying at best. Had I not had a history of use of other indole psychedelics, I probably would have been terrified out of my wits by the DMT surge. **It is not something to be trifled with, to be sure**!!!!!!!!!!!

If I can't talk you out of this (I'd like to) and you are determined to try DMT (or any other psychedelic for that matter) then be sure you are accompanied by a very experienced guide; a person who's been there, knows what to expect and who remains a sober caretaker during your experience. Be sure of the source and purity of the substance and be very sure of the dosage you plan to ingest.

Psychelics are not like alcohol or marijuana or narcotics. You cannot stop the experience once it begins. You cannot sleep it off or pass out or anything like that. You will be wide wide wide awake and your senses will be operating in some unfamiliar modalities. They can, and often do, take you to places that are very real and very laden with power, yet can be as terrifying as they are exquisite. Once you are traveling, the only choice you have is to ride it out. Know this and respect it.

Many people hear these fascinating tales of psychedelic trips and find them alluring enough to try it themselves, only to swear to never touch them again after the first experience.

I happen to be one of the weird minority that finds something in the trips to be beneficial enough to continue use. That doesn't make me special in any particularly good way; just weird, OK?

I have probably used psychedelics, on avg, twice a year for the past 30 years, though there have been some years when I haven't taken any at all. When I was in my mid 20s +/- there was a year when I may have used them as frequently as once a month. To this day, I have **a strong sense of trepidation** before I ingest and I won't ingest unless I feel a strong need to and everything is just right - meaning everything from the weather, to my mental balance, to my wife's mental balance, to my expectation of having a safe comfortable environment generally. I do not eat for several hours (perhaps the whole day) prior to ingesting. Despite experimenting with substances, I am a very healthy individual. I work out hard almost daily and I do a lot of outdoors/farming activities. I eat healthy and think spiritually - or at least in a way that is spiritual in my own definition of the term.

These are important components. If you are not physically healthy do not try these things! If you are not feeling psychologically healthy, do not try these things! Psychedelics are not an escapist's tool. They will magnify your thoughts and feelings and if these are negative or unhappy then what is bothering you will become a mountain of cosmic darkness, pain and confusion that lands on your head (or not, but it can and the risk is sufficiently present that I feel honest making the warning statement that I did).

If you're going to do this, seek expert guidance. Please.


Why experiment with psychedelics when there are places like the Munroe Institute that try to help people have spiritual experiences safely and without the use of drugs?

Passenger,

no one offers excellent advice. I also have never heard of a "pot OBE."

I've learned a lot about tripping by reading people's accounts of their trips. Have you ever heard of Erowid?

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp_list.shtml

My takeaway: I'm never taking any of that stuff. It's right for some people. But I'm psychic anyway and have plenty of trips while I'm asleep.

Speaking of which, if you've ever had a dream, then you've had an OBE. For real. Michael recommends lucid dreaming--excellent idea. But even before you get to that stage, try removing the standard "filter" of "It's just a dream." It's not. Look into your dreams, experience them, *be* in them. Writing them down can start to stimulate memory of them. There's a heck of a lot of "tripping" you can do safely and for free with no chemicals required.

Matt,

I'm not sure if I even dream anymore. If I do I probably can't remember them.

I work from 4 pm to 5 am. my brain is not what it used to be

Matt, I'm curious what kind of psychic are you? The one that reads people's mind or the one that speaks to the dead (mediums)?

Passenger,

I see/hear/feel into the Astral Plane for information.

You've heard the old joke, "I'm psychic but I'm not a mind reader." I don't really read minds. I can sometimes pick up the broadcast and feel someone's thoughts, but I feel this has to do with what they're sending out. But I can also see what they have on the Astral Plane, which could be a bit more interior.

I am a passive medium. If spirits want to get through, I will serve as the conduit. I don't often try to contact spirits of the departed, but it's not something beyond my capability.

Hope this helps!

So-- it's a weekend and I finally have a chance to respond to a point made by Michael, and then echoed by no one.

Hooray!

You both suspect that abductions are misinterpreted OBE's. But I have a couple of problems with that.

Michael said:

"Well, so-called alien abductees - not DMT volunteers, but regular folks who were totally unprepared for their adventure - typically insist the experience was physical, so (if the OBE theory is right) they are misinterpreting it."

I was ready to go along with this, because it's been so long since I've read up on the subject. But I thought I'd double-check Mack's last book before he died, "Passport to the Cosmos," and here's what I found, in the chapter called "Is it 'Real,' and if so, how?":

"Abductees usually know that, although their experiences are as real to them as the world experienced in what is called ordinary consciousness, they are occurring, as Carol put it, "in a completely different reality." . . . According to Julie, who has been examining her experiences with me since 1990, "Abduction experiences show you can separate consciousness from the body. What we see is not all there is."

So maybe the spontaneous experiencers are less easily fooled than we've been thinking. (And clearly, the DMT-triggered experiencers know they are having OBEs.)

So why am I making a point of this? Because if we say that the abduction experience involves a misinterpretation, we're then justified in thinking, "Well, I wonder what other aspects are not quite what they seem? How else might these people be mistaken?"

So using the word "misinterpretation" makes it easy to discount a stunning reality that I've been taking more seriously over the past few weeks: many people, either through spontaneous events or through ingesting DMT in the presence of scientists, are convinced that they are encountering alien beings.

The stories that got me started on this recent kick are here:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/Files/Books/DMT/DMT%20Journey%20Reports.pdf

Many of the reports included in that pdf file are from Strassman's book. It's a strange and fascinating document. In many cases, as no one said, people find the DMT experiences to be overwhelming and spiritually useless. But others have NDE-like trips that are quite moving. Some involve visits to environments that are carnival-like, or awesomely beautiful, or like the set of a science-fiction movie. And some experiences are simply terrifying.

But when you read through the whole collection, certain themes begin to emerge as common elements. And one of those is meeting alien beings. And when you put together the sheer number of accounts, the fact that someone like Strassman has worked with many of these people and judged them to be trustworthy witnesses, and then look at how closely the stories match up with what John Mack reports--well, I'm beginning to think that this category of experience may be as worthy of our attention and study as NDEs.

Strassman, by the way, was initially certain that the alleged aliens were merely projections of fearful aspects of the experiencers' personalities. One of the main themes of his book is the enormous change in perspective he had to undergo to even begin to consider taking his volunteers' claims at face value.

So what do you guys think? Am I too easily impressed? Should I stick to playing the piano?

Bruce, keep on jamming aliens or no aliens!

ah...this is why I can never stay away from this blog.....it's too damn interesting and the people here are too damn intelligent.

Bruce, let me first qualify anything that I've ever said with my honest and sincere, but not often enough stated qualifier, that just because it didn't happen for me, it can't happen for someone else.

I have actually sat down to tea and talk with Terrence McKenna and Andrew Weil (on separate ocassions). Andy was more interested in 5Meo DMT derived from a natural source in the Sonoran Desert and possible historical use by certain native people in pre- 1492. He had tried it however and it had made a big impression on him.

I don't recall what exactly Andy's final opinion of the DMT experience was as far as what it all means. Terrence, however, seemed as sincere as he was unequivocable in his beliefs concerning alien intelligences.

Terrance also felt that there is an alien intelligence to be met in the psilocybin experience (psilocybin, BTW, is a 4 hydroxy version of DMT - the 4 hydroxy making a version of the foundational DMT that is orally active).

My experience with DMT was very limited (see previous comment here). My experience with psilosybin far more extensive. What Terrence labeled as "alien", I found (still find) to be more akin to what has been termed the "logos", or, on the other hand, perhaps exactly what the natives say it is; the spirit of the plant itself that guides and teaches. I'm not saying it's either or neither, just that I could definitely see how it could be described that way. Terrence agreed, but kept alluding to an "alien" nuance or feel to the logos like aspect that he felt justified his use of the word and its connotations and denotations. I agreed that we could use the term "alien" if it was limited to meaning from outside of out normal intellectual procceses. He wanted to - and did - push that farther to include the possibility of actual alien intelligence arising from actual alien entities that inhabit other dimensions. That's just how he perceived it.

It was Terrence's pioneering spirit, willingness to plant flags in new territory and unabashed assertiveness that made him a well known writer and leading figure in a cause. He also stated that being Irish he was entitled to kiss the Blarney Stone once in a while.

That said, I really do think there is intelligence(s) that psilocybin puts you in touch with and, if I had to bet on it, I would say that some of the intelligence(s) are outside of us. I am *not* going to entertain the idea that one talks to space creatures that are sitting on another planet and use physical craft for interstellar travel and that physically abduct humans for experimental purposes. I really don't see that. Many alien abduction reports do describe a very physical experience, including physical space craft. These cannot be overlooked in favor of more esoteric descriptions.

I will also digress to interject that while Matt provided a very good resource in his link to the Erowid "tripping" testimonials, that psychedelic experiences need not be that way. These seem to me to be largely reports of uneducated and generally stupid kids looking for kicks and irresponsibily obtaining them through drugs. There is no way these kids could ever realize the full value of the tools if, for other reason, than the way they take them. Pearls cast before swine and all of that.

The medicine is best used in either silent contemplation in a quiet dark environment (although music and drums can be great too if the people playing them are "experienced"), or out in nature far from the distractions of civilization.

I will further add that I do believe that there must be intelligent life on other planets and that some of these are probably far more advanced than we are in whatever way you define "advanced". I am willing to entertain the idea that some of these very same space aliens may explore the galaxies in physical space craft and may have even visited our planet. If they are using space craft for all of this then they are probably not using non-physical multi-dimensional (e.g. psi) methods. If they can do the latter, then why bother with the former?

I have had OBEs, as I have stated sveral times in the past. These are the full fledged classic alert awareness mind/body separation as described in the early stages of NDEs (like when they can see their bodies on the OR table or travel away from their bodies on the OR table and see what is occurring down the hall or else where). When these began happening to me there was a body paralysis associated with the onset, there was a buzzing and rushing sensation and a feeling of being drawn out of my body. Since I was of a dualist spiritual mindset at the time of first OBE I interpreted it as an actual death experience. I thought I was dying and my soul was separating from my body more or less as I imagined it might. Except I didn't die. So I had to re-interpret what had happened. I did not know about OBEs per se at that time. When I researched and found some literature, I understood. Had I not been of a dualist spiritual background, I would have had to have assigned a different explanation (the experience was too powerful and unusual to just ignore). I can easily see how someone more prone to scifi explanations could assign a scifi - as opposed to spiritual - explanation. Scifi meaning alien abduction, of course. My original interpreation was easily proven wrong when I didn't die. The alien abduction explanation would not be so easily or obviously proven wrong and thus could endure.

The statement: "Abductees usually know that, although their experiences are as real to them as the world experienced in what is called ordinary consciousness, they are occurring, as Carol put it, "in a completely different reality." . . . According to Julie, who has been examining her experiences with me since 1990, "Abduction experiences show you can separate consciousness from the body. What we see is not all there is." doesn't clash with anything I've said or with the classic OBE.

So, I think the bottom line here is the question(s) that follows: "Having accepted that consciousness can separate from the physical body and that during the separation there is contact with non-physical entities, what are those entities and are they internal to or external to the consciousness of the individual?"

Aliens? Angels? Souls of the deceased? gods? God? Satan? Aspects of higher (lower) subconscious mind? Fragments of personality? All of the above? None of the above? At what level of awareness does the answer maintaining meaning? At what level does that meaning stop making sense?

I don't know. I have my theories, which are a mixture of Tibetan Buddhism and certain Native American sensibilities - this would include ideas like karma, gods, spirits never human and deceased souls - but I don't know. So I am not going to jump on any particular band wagon. The 4th alien band wagon is one in particular that doesn't feel right to me. Your milage may differ ;-)


Ughh....where do all of those typos come from?

I wanted to address this separately;

"And clearly, the DMT-triggered experiencers know they are having OBEs."

I have never had an OBE result from drug use. I don't know anyone who has either, and that's more than a few people to sample from. Maybe it happens, but i think it must be extremely rare. Again, I am refering to the classic OBE where, in a relatively high level of clarity, one can observe one's own body from a location other than the physical body and/or move through this physical world (or a close approximation of it) as a non-physical perceptual unit. The sort of thing Robert Munroe wrote about and taught.

Psychedelics, at high doses, absolutely can put a user into a mental state where the physical body - even the physical world - becomes so unimportant as an object of attentional focus that one feels one is in a purely mental and/or spiritual realm. However, I don't think we can call that an OBE in any traditional sense.

http://www.oberf.org/obe_overview.htm

I think these definitions of OBE, etc (toward the bottom) are pretty good.

And it's Robert Monroe, not Munroe.

Maybe there really are 4th dimension aliens........and they're interested in messing up the typographical skills of commenters on this blog.

"Terrence agreed, but kept alluding to an "alien" nuance or feel to the logos like aspect that he felt justified his use of the word and its connotations and denotations."

No one, if you get a chance, read that pdf document I linked to. Countless experiencers describe encountering beings that unquestionably deserve--DEMAND, I would think--to be called alien. In particular, I'm always struck by the insect-shaped beings, because I find insects repulsive.

Insects are so incredibly successful here on earth, it's not surprising that it's a bodily type that may popular throughout the universe and its many dimensions.

"If they are using space craft for all of this then they are probably not using non-physical multi-dimensional (e.g. psi) methods. If they can do the latter, then why bother with the former?"

Why not? You like cars and cel phones, but you probably also make use of jets and radios. Maybe there's a virtually infinite variety of beings, and each can reach us in countless ways: through our consciousness, using spacecrafts that can come in and out of physicality, etc.

I think it's silly to get stuck on a single kind of being, a single way of traveling, etc. Imagine an isolated tribal person encountering a 21st-century Westerner for the first time. Then imagine him trying to figure out how this mysterious stranger lives and what his home environment might be like. Maybe that's pretty much *our* dilemma in trying to understand the entities who seem to be contacting us.

But we have it even worse, really, because at least the indigenous person and the city dweller live on the same plane of reality. We're like the Flatlander trying to understand the 3-dimensional world.

"I have never had an OBE result from drug use. I don't know anyone who has either, and that's more than a few people to sample from. Maybe it happens, but i think it must be extremely rare. Again, I am refering to the classic OBE where, in a relatively high level of clarity, one can observe one's own body from a location other than the physical body and/or move through this physical world (or a close approximation of it) as a non-physical perceptual unit. The sort of thing Robert Munroe wrote about and taught."

I've never had a classic OBE through drugs either (or in any other way.).

"Psychedelics, at high doses, absolutely can put a user into a mental state where the physical body - even the physical world - becomes so unimportant as an object of attentional focus that one feels one is in a purely mental and/or spiritual realm. However, I don't think we can call that an OBE in any traditional sense."

I don't call my past mushroom experiences OBEs. On the other hand, I experienced myself as being so essentially separate from my body, that the concept of death seemed absurd. I remember, in one trip, experiencing myself in a semi-liquid form--a sort of gelatin capsule tightly packed together with countless other gelatin capsules.

As the drug wore off, I had the sense (and I've heard this described by others too) of gradually re-creating the time-space continuum around me.

"Having accepted that consciousness can separate from the physical body and that during the separation there is contact with non-physical entities, what are those entities and are they internal to or external to the consciousness of the individual?"

External or internal--that may not be a question with a clear-cut answer. As you know, I see us all as parts or aspects of a single, limitless entity. And if that's true, then there ARE no beings external to me. They're all part of my own vast self.

I think it's Ken Carey who said something like: "In this universe, all divisions exist for recreational purposes only."

Bruce,

"On the other hand, I experienced myself as being so essentially separate from my body, that the concept of death seemed absurd."

Agreed. Also, I have found that psilocybin definitely causes psi abilities to arise in a user during and for several days or weeks after use. Many people, starting with Gordon Wasson's reportage of Maria Sabina's shamanism, have noted this. Especially common is the power of pre-cognition. Claivoyance/clairaudiance are common too. Synchronicities abound and sometimes appear to spill over into psychkenesis. I mention this to suggest that it not only *seems* like he mind is operating independent of the body, but it actually is.

"As the drug wore off, I had the sense (and I've heard this described by others too) of gradually re-creating the time-space continuum around me."

YEP

"As you know, I see us all as parts or aspects of a single, limitless entity. And if that's true, then there ARE no beings external to me. They're all part of my own vast self."

OK. I hear you. But then are there actually insectoid aliens? Or, as our Buddhist friends would say, are the aliens just illusions created by the ignorance of one's own mind?

That is where I get stuck.

Have you ever experienced the logos/spirit/alien while bemushroomed? Do you know what we are talking about? And how would you describe it?

Going with the prevalence of precognitive experiences under tryptamine influence, McKenna also thought the aliens might be beings - even us - in the future. An idea he toyed with any how.

I guess, if we are going to do science, and I have no doubt that Strassman, etc are scientists, then we cannot ignore the visions of aliens. I, personally, just can't relate. I assume Strassman provides statisdtics on the frequency of alien encounters and correlates with personality traits and other potentially meaningful variables?

Bruce, I read the pdf you link to. Excellent. I could insert my own DMT experience (or maybe even a very heavy psilocybin experience) and it wouldn't be out of place.

Only I don't perceive elves and aliens! Spirits and intelligences, yes. Absolutely.

So my point is that if the elves/aliens are independently real then I should see them too. Anyone taking the drug should. Or, then again, maybe some people, like me, look in other directions and we are just missing these things.

Also, my off the cuff observation is that only a minority of the experiences in the pdf describe aliens or elves per se.

Overall, I liked the pdf. Thanks!

Bruce, no one,

Well, I've never taken psychedelic drugs, and I meet with aliens all the time these days. They're real.

A couple months ago, I had three healings: one each with the Arcturian, mantis aliens, and the Pleiadeans.

The first healing was the most remarkable. I had been asleep and woke up (I was definitely completely awake, and this wasn't a dream). I saw an orange light in the "distance" of my mind's eye. I was invited to come in. I said, "I don't want to go in if that's the light of death," but I was reassured it was OK. I went into the light, and it went up through the chakra of green and then to a beautiful blue. When it was all blue, I was in a huge spherical craft made of blue light. There were blue aliens that I could just tell were "Arcturians." At one point, I got a good look of the full body of the alien. It was blue with black, long eyes, a bald head, and had fewer fingers on its hands, which were thicker. The funny this is that I did an image search on "Arcturian," and someone had a picture that looks exactly like what I saw.

The mantis aliens were quite different. They are also dedicated to STO (service to others), but they are rather gruff (but not unfriendly). Their craft or environment seemed more physical, but it was very bizarre. Imagine looking in a room and not being able to tell what anything is because it's so different from what you are used to. This experience also happened at night when I was fully awake.

The third experience was totally different. I had a feeling I would have a third experience, and this time with a Pleiadean. I was just walking and was able to talk to one, who has since remained a kind of spirit guide.

But let's go back to 2009. I had read about aliens, alien abductions, UFOs, etc., but I had never been "into" the topic. I was in bed talking with my gf when I got these amazing closed-eye visuals that would not stop (again, no drugs involved). They were all of alien technologies--like physical objects--and again I could not really tell what they were.

After awhile, I was invited to speak with the Council, which is 9 higher beings (ascended masters) from 9 planetary systems (or 9 alien races), including 1 human. Over the past year, I have channeled the Council more and more, and I have been told to write down my experiences and share them.

So, no drugs, plenty of aliens. These races are all telepathic and are able to work with dimensions in a way that we humans are just starting to. It is not clear to what degree they physically come to earth. My best guess is that Earth is under quarantine. The higher alien races protect developing planets like ours and do not let anyone hostile attack. I think the hostile Greys that get through *are* essentially getting to people through the Astral Plane and not directly physically. I don't know what role UFOs are playing on planet Earth right now. I should ask!

Matt & Bruce, I admit that there could be something very real occurring involving aliens, drugs or no drugs.

I have a very good friend, native american guy, we've been friends for like 30 years now. They guy can be spooky sometimes with his psi abilities - like when he says something like, "play that song you've been working on" and then hums a few bars of a song that I've been developing in private, even though he lives more than 300 miles away and there's no way he could have known about it.

We don't usually talk about these things. We just accept that it's part of life, a big mystery, and then we joke around, drink beer and pick guitars and sing like we've been doing for 30 years, when we get together two or three times each year. We can kind of tell what's going on with each other by how and what we are playing and singing. And he is not one to intellectualize the paranormal - or anything else - like we do here.

One time, years ago, we did talk about "dream walking" as he calls what I call the classic OBE. Apparently this is something he does frequently and is one way that he might obtain information about songs I am working on from a distance.

Anyhow. During a recent visit we were taking a break from playing music and were sipping some beer and watching some falcons hunting over in the sky above the field across the road and he says something like, "I had the weirdest thing happen when I was dream walking about a month ago". As I said, it's unusual for him to bring up a topic like that, especially so directly. I felt like what had happened disconcerted him and he felt that I was someone he trusted to talk about it with and who might understand. So I was all ears, "Yeah? What happened". He says, "Well, I left my body and was about to glide out the window - you know what I mean?" I nodded in understanding. "And I looked back at my body on the bed and it was surrounded by little space alien guys, like the ones you see in movies. They were just kind of hundled around around staring at my body. Then they noticed that I noticed them and at that instant they all changed from looking like little green creatures to little copies of me. Like they were being chamelions. It freaked me out and I snapped back. No dream walking for me that night".

So I asked him if he was sure it was real "dream walking" and not just a vivid dream. He was sure it was a real OBE and that what he saw was real. Then we started making jokes about it.

So there is one guy that I trust implicitly that has encountered some kind of alien form. I had forgotten about that until we started this discussion here.

But what does it all mean?

But what does it all mean?

I think it's humanity waking up to a presence and being more prepared to understand what it really is.

It sounds as though your friend saw some Grays operating in another dimension. I have never seen them and don't really care to. (The question remains for me whether the Grays are a completely fallen race or if the bad ones are a kind of breakaway group. I have read and heard different things.)

Matt & Bruce, Hmmmmmmm............I need to think about this some more, which will help me further procrastinate working on my new blog (a greater challenge than I first imagined it would be).

I have no problem accepting and being comfortable with the idea of communication with deceased human souls and non-human spirits. I have experienced these things.

I have always had issues with being open to the idea of real 'angels' and aliens, which I have never experienced personally.

For some reason - maybe the lack of personal experience - it is easier for me to accept that people are having OBEs and encountering spirits and misattributing all of that to being encounters with aliens than it is to accept the alien stories at face value.

Partly I think that my aversion stems from all of the commercial hype and glitter around aliens and angels. Much in the way that some people object to the use of the term 'God' because of its common connotation in popular society. It all gets so Madison Ave. hoaky and dumbed down that one can't believe there's any truth at all in it.

However, there has much of the same around mediumship and that has not detered my open minded skepticism concerning those claiming to be mediums (meaning I think *some* people really have proven to be mediums just as they claim to be).

So I don't know what my problem with aliens really is. It's been fun, as always, guys.

no one,

It's definitely hard to integrate every single data point that comes our way.

I still don't know what to do with UFOs. Aliens are sophisticated enough to fly here and be hidden *most* of the time, but sometimes they goof up and get photographed. Or do they intend to be seen just a little?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I don't think the phenomenon can be denied. We're also now in an era in which multiple people are capturing the same things on cell phone cameras, rending the accusation of fraud meaningless in many cases.

Actually, Just to make sure we're clear, I don't have a hard time accepting aliens in physical space craft. I think that is a real and proven phenom. when you're done tossing out the hoaxes and reflected light, swamp gas, etc.

It's the multidimensional ones that I have a hard time with. I am more willing to accept that demonic possession occurs (I think it does) than I am able to accept little green men on the astral realm.

Wow--you guys have really been at it since I last checked in! And Matt, I just took a brief glance at your range of experiences and am astonished, and excited to go back and read in detail. I need to get outdoors today, but later in the day will read and write some more.

Great discussion!

Bruce, how come people in the Amazon basin that have been using DMT in snuffs and drinks for millenia do not have a mythology based on aliens? Surely they would see them too if it's an objective phenom. Right?

Instead i think they see jungle spirits and creatures.

This is the crux of my 4D alien problem.

So no one, do you think I'm possessed by demons? :)

I also don't think my experiences are anything too special.

is your head spinning 360 degrees?

Does holy water burn you?

Are you puking slimy green stuff at priests?

:-)

Yes, yes and maybe

"I need to get outdoors today"

Outdoors? What's that?

"Outdoors? What's that?"

Also referred to as an OHE, or out-of-house experience. I can pretty much have them at will.

To complete my last comment:

But I usually forget that fact! (Sounds like your problem, too, Michael.)

OHEs - I like it. Instead of rising out of your body, you have to rise up out of your chair. You then leave the 2-dimensional world of your computer screen and enter a 3-dimensional world involving direct contact with other sentient beings.

"Instead of rising out of your body, you have to rise up out of your chair"

Exactly! A fellow fearless explorer--I love it. :o)

I've also found that when having an OHE at certain times, I will move through a comparatively dark passage and emerge into a world of bright light. This light, which pervades everything and seems essential to life, emanates from a single glowing entity that I call the Being of Light, though others call it the sun.

What about hellish OHEs? I think these are under-reported ;-) Some people don't experience the light. Instead they experience a freezing cold white and gray world with much unpleasant frigid penetrating wind.

OHE, hahahah.

Wow. A dark passage, hellish OHE's--insightful comments, you guys! Now I know how Raymond Moody must feel about NDEs. He focuses his attention on a neglected aspect of reality and suddenly everyone's talking about it!

Does this mean I get to go on TV to introduce the world--or at least sun-starved nerds like Michael and me--to the OHE?

Here's something I could say. One way to know if you're having an OHE is to look at your feet at frequent intervals during the day. If you notice that you're wearing shoes, and if they seem to be in contact with grass, dirt, or pavement of some kind, you may be having a full-fledged OHE.

What do you think? Should I get an agent?

Bruce,

You gotta give it a shot!


Matt, recently you've been sharing specific advice or information that's come to you via your contacts in the spiritual world. The messages have sounded plausible and interesting, so it's nice to get more specifics on who these contacts are.

"There were blue aliens that I could just tell were "Arcturians."

Was this based on previous knowledge about Arcturians that you had, or was that name given to you during the experience?

And could you give me a link to that image of the Arcturians? When I search on Google, I get a page that has a variety of different versions of what Arcturians look like. So I'm wondering--is there any consensus among experiencers or contactees on their appearance?

I'd also like you to answer, if you would, the same questions in regard to the Pleiadeans.

"The mantis aliens were quite different. . . ."

Insects again. So common in the reports of DMT users and spontaneous contactees, too.

"Imagine looking in a room and not being able to tell what anything is because it's so different from what you are used to."

One of the DMT experiencers said quite a similar thing.

Thanks for sharing this stuff!

No one, it must have been really compelling to hear your friend talk about his alien visitors with such conviction. Thanks for sharing that!

"Have you ever experienced the logos/spirit/alien while bemushroomed? Do you know what we are talking about? And how would you describe it?"

The closest I came to a Mckenna-like experience was my first LSD trip. I was listening to music (Mozart), and I saw each of the notes of the piece hanging in space. (Can't remember if my eyes were open or closed.)

And each of those notes was a little dancing man beautifully dressed up in clothing from Mozart's time. And those little guys were like chubby little dwarves or elves, going through their motions with great joy.

That was by far the most visual trip I've had.

McKenna said that the greatest revelation he received from tripping was the clear knowledge of the "Other". For me, it was exactly the opposite! My deepest learning has been that there IS no other. That everything and everybody I normally think of as being "out there,'' is really a part of me.

Hi Bruce,

You wrote,

--Was this based on previous knowledge about Arcturians that you had, or was that name given to you during the experience?--

I had, I think, heard the name before. I won't claim I had never seen images before (thought it is quite likely I hadn't). But all of this was certainly *far* from top of mind. During the experience, I *felt* that it was the Arcturians.

--And could you give me a link to that image of the Arcturians? When I search on Google, I get a page that has a variety of different versions of what Arcturians look like. So I'm wondering--is there any consensus among experiencers or contactees on their appearance?--

Here is the link:

http://www.esotericonline.net/profiles/blogs/circlemakers-regaining-our

Apparently the name "Arcturian" was also used in a sci-fi series, and those fictional aliens look different. I was *amazed* to see that my Arcturians matched the description of what "real" Arcturians looked like.


--I'd also like you to answer, if you would, the same questions in regard to the Pleiadeans.--

In the case of the Arcturians, I had not studied much or at all. I can't claim I'd seen or heard *nothing,* but it was pretty minimal. In the case of the Pleiadeans, it's not so. I'd heard a lot about Nordic aliens and looked them up. So what kind of question can I answer for you?


--Insects again. So common in the reports of DMT users and spontaneous contactees, too.--

And a beautiful people!

--One of the DMT experiencers said quite a similar thing.--

In the mantis aliens' craft or environment (I didn't know if it was a spacecraft or building), all I could really discern was that there was a kind of balcony or upper tier all around the circular room. Plus, they gave me a machine in which to kneel that made enough visual sense to use (the spots for my knees were glowing with white light). It was so counterintuitive that it definitely seemed real!


--Thanks for sharing this stuff!--

U bet!

I seriously feel like taking DMT

"I seriously feel like taking DMT"

Sounds like a really bad idea, for all the reasons Matt and no one have offered.

One of the reasons I don't write much about hallucinogenic drugs (besides the fact that I have no firsthand experience with them) is that I don't want to inadvertently encourage drug experimentation. What you put in your body can have profound psychological and physical effects that last for years. A single bad trip can bring on recurrent panic attacks that cripple your ability to function in everyday life. I'm not saying this happens to everybody, but it can happen, and why take the chance? Not to mention the very real possibility of having such a bad reaction to a drug (or its contaminants) that you go into allergic shock or cardiac arrest ...

I don't think there are any good shortcuts in this area. Again, I recommend meditation, guided imagery exercises, and lucid dreaming as safe, time-tested ways of cultivating your "spiritual" side.

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