Neat little holiday story, purportedly true, in which a skeptic learns the true meaning of Halloween - namely, that ghosts are real!

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/323199.php

Comments

[Michael Prescott]

By the way, the linked story also has a lot of interesting comments in which readers open up about their own paranormal experiences. Of course some of these stories might be made up. No way to tell. Also, since it's a conservative political blog, you'll encounter the usual jibes at Obama, etc., which might irk some people.

[Matt Rouge]

Interesting. I have seen and heard a ghost myself in my mom's house. No trouble believing here.

And yes, Michael, you're right: conservatives ARE scary!

j/k

[j9]

What bothers me about is that if ghosts are people who don't "cross over", I don't want to be one of those people. What keeps someone there for 100 years? If I die violently or suddenly, am I doomed to wander around wondering what happened? I would hope I would be savvy enough to realize I had to move on.

[Kathleen]

I don't buy this stuff about not being able to move on. How could one possibly not know they're dead? And what could possibly induce one to stay here? I could see wanting to occosionally visit out of curiosity, but the rest is just lame HOllywood drivel to sell movies. ALso, please excuse the typos here, I' using an iPad,which in my opinion is worthless for creating text.

[.]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/276925-near-death-experiences-a-trick-of-the-brain-researchers-find/ lol..

[j9]

That doesn't make a lot of sense. How would a psychologist know? Based on interviews? Sounded like they were mostly guessing, doesn't it?

[RabbitDawg]

When I first looked over the comment section, it looked like it was a total loss of serious discussion. Then I noticed that the snarks had jumped in there right off the bat, but the more thoughtful commentator's took their time before posting. Some folks had stories to tell, a few were even (thoughtfully) skeptical.
A small mirror of our society when it comes to discussion of the paranormal.

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

People who have very strong emotional attachments to something on the earth plane and/or who may have not given much thought to the afterlife may become earth bound when they leave their physical body. For the most part, this phenomena is not something mystical, it is simply a result of aspects of human nature that continue after one leaves the body.

The way you travel in the spirit world is by thinking about where you want to go. If your mind is filled with thoughts about something on the earth plane, for example a loved one, or a business you ran, you will go to that person or place.

Spirit guides may try to help you but if you are focused on worldly things, it can be very hard for spirit guides to get your attention. This is like when you are involved in a task that you find very interesting and you are not paying attention to people or things going on around you.

If you have strong beliefs that there is no afterlife, it may be hard for you to accept that you are dead. There are some people in life who refuse to change strongly held beliefs even when confronted with contrary evidence. It is true for incarnated people and for discarnated people too.

All this is why it is important to spread correct information about the afterlife and the evidence for it (and avoid spreading misinformation and/or doubt about it). Correct information about the afterlife will help people to make the transition and save the spirits from having to spend a lot of time and effort to help earth bound spirits to make the transition.

[sbu]

All this is why it is important to spread correct information about the afterlife and the evidence for it (and avoid spreading misinformation and/or doubt about it). Correct information about the afterlife will help people to make the transition and save the spirits from having to spend a lot of time and effort to help earth bound spirits to make the transition.

Correct information about the afterlife! Excuse me - but do we have any except a few suggestive hints mostly dating a hundreds years ago? Even the owner of this blog frequently expresses doubt about the existence of an afterlife based on the available evidence. All this stuff is highly subjective.

[Juan]

This stuff are not highly subjective, because clearly there is converging evidence gathered during the past centuries that there is a form of afterlife. The owner of this blog only (I think) try to increase our critical spirit and consider that not all cases are acceptable as evidence of the afterlife, but does not reject all these cases.

[Robert]

Heh, bonus points for linking to AoSHQ!

One must understand that it is a sort of tribe there ("Morons and Moronnettes") and that the many comments that "Obama is an SCOAMF" to each post are a sort of communal chant.

Striking to me is the similarity with a story an old mentor of mine told me many years ago. I thought of him as hard-headed but one day he matter-of-factly told me about how his house had a ghost who had made a lot of rappings and noises inside the walls until the family had a "conversation" with "him" very similar to the one in the linked post. His name was Tony and after they communicated with him they very seldom heard noises anymore and of course no one worried about it.

I don't "believe" in ghosts but I've never had an experience like this, either. The fact that others report them keeps me interested in the subject.

[j9]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/276925-near-death-experiences-a-trick-of-the-brain-researchers-find/ lol..

My last post referred to this link that was posted by someone anonymously . Did anyone read it? My post seems to not fit.

[Kathleen]

@jshgfcre98ijyds, interesting ideas. But what exactly is the correct information about passing over to the afterlife? All of the NDEs I've read state that people are involuntarily transported to a place outside of the earth realm. They don't seem to have a choice about being drawn into the tunnel with the light at the end. A few are given a choice, but only either to stay in the afterlife realm or else return to their earthly bodies and resume their earthly lives. There doesn't seem to be a choice to return as a spirit in order to harass or frighten others, or mope around being melancholy over one's fate on earth. There are many people throughout history who after their deaths, have seen their countries, great works, etc., overturned, their own reputations unfairly dragged through the gutter, and more, and yet they do not return. For these reasons, I discount more and more the idea of ghosts. Perhaps the dead can occasionally visit, and even then, I suspect it's only to reassure their loved ones.

That said, I love a good ghost story as much as anyone, I just don't believe them. Let the spirits prove me otherwise.

[Zerdini]

Let the spirits prove me otherwise.

What you believe, Kathleen, is entirely up to you.

NDE's are not the same as actual 'Death experiences'.

[Matt Rouge]

Kathleen,

According to the information I have read and heard, after people cross over they do not get ticked off and come back over to exact revenge, clear their names, etc. Perhaps a few will try to clear up misunderstandings through a medium, but that's about it. The only exception seems to be crisis apparitions, where people still have enough connection to this world after they die to say goodbye to a loved one using a full-body materialization.

That is different from ghosts, which are not powerful, autonomous entities. They are confused, lower-energy spirits.

Cheers,

Matt

[Paul]

Let the spirits prove me otherwise. is there some reason they should go out of their way to prove anything to you? :)

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

"? All of the NDEs I've read state that people are involuntarily transported to a place outside of the earth realm."

Hi Kathleen,

If you find NDE evidence convincing, you might be interested in this web page:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html

The author uses the term "earthbound" somewhat differently than I used the term "earth bound", however he uses NDE reports as evidence for some of the concepts I wrote about.

[Kathleen]

Matt, could you kindly clear up what "confused, lower-level spirits" are? They wouldn't by chance be conservatives? I agree with everything else you wrote though. The evidence does seem to indicate that no one can come back to harass the living, only perhaps to reassure loved ones or visit for a moments because they're curious.

jshgfcre98ijyds, interesting material, but there are actually NDEers (only a few) who say they went to Hell. They went involuntarily of course, and weren't given a choice to remain on earth and continue to harass the innocent.

[Matt Rouge]

Kathleen,

Confused = They don't know they are dead and are attached to negative things here on the earth plane.

Lower-energy = The Afterlife vibrates at a higher energy level than the material world. When people cross over, they move up to that energy level. Thus, a lower-energy spirit stays closer to the energy here on earth. That's why they can still influence material things more easily than spirits that have crossed over. The spirits of evil people are also said to vibrate at a really low level and can go to bad places in the afterlife. However, they will have the chance to raise their vibrations later; there is no permanent hell.

Hope this helps!

Matt

[sbu]

The Afterlife vibrates at a higher energy level than the material world. When people cross over, they move up to that energy level.

Energy? In what unit do you measure and how do you measure that energy - Joule? Is this falsifiable? What does it really mean? Why not reverse it and say "The Afterlife vibrates at a lower energy level than the material world" - can you prove me wrong on this except that the other way around it sounds better?

[Matt Rouge]

sbu,

Are you the resident skeptic here now? If I wanted to argue against skeptics there are a lot of places on the Internet I could go. It's not something I do (though I used to and learned not to).

Cheers,

Matt

[Juan]

Well, I've read the book The Probabilities of the Impossible of Thelma Moss, and it is a description of the afterlife through a medium named Betty that exactly matches what says Matt Rouge. And this coincidence occurs in many books of theosophy and parapsychological research. So why this would be wrong to say that the afterlife vibrates at a frequency lower than the material plane. Is reversed by various registered mediumistic communications. How to know if this is true? Well, we know quite likely if these communicators are those who claim to be subjected to various tests such as Hodgson did with Mrs. Piper, but when these communicators are beginning to talk about how is the afterlife, we can only consistency between their statements to see if it's true what they say.

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

Kathleen,

Do you believe that there are no mediums who are genuinely communicating with spirits or do you just dispute that spirits can interact with "ordinary" people?

Thanks

[sbu]

So why this would be wrong to say that the afterlife vibrates at a frequency lower than the material plane.

Can't you guys see that what you are saying makes no sense at all? Material plane that vibrates? What is that supposed to mean? What is the implication of these vibrations? There is nothing physical in this - it's just words.

Juan - you mention "consistency" between medium communications, something that I find quite interesting. Without having full transcripts of everything that have ever been said about the afterlife in my head, I'm however concerned that consistency is greatly missing. E.g. as far as I have been able to drill out, classic communications with e.g. Leonora Piper did not mention reincarnation at all - because reincarnation wasn't a popular notion back in the victorian days. Then Ian Stevenson comes along and gives reincarnation a great revival in the western culture and suddenly reincarnation becomes a common ingredient in medium communications. Surely this suggests that the communications contains the information the sitters expects and wants to hear rather than some objective reality.

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

"What is that supposed to mean? What is the implication of these vibrations?"

It's supposed to be like radio waves. You perceive the different planes of the spirit world and the earth plane by tuning into different frequencies the way to tune into different stations on a radio. There is a lot left out of that explanation, but that is what many mediums have said.

Maybe it's the de Broglie wave but I don't think there is any real evidence that is what they are talking about.

I haven't been able to tell if these vibrations are really periodic like waves or non-periodic vibrations like thermal vibrations.

On a few occasioins I've tried to find a trance medium who would be willing to try to get spirit scientists to answer questions like this over a series of sessions and answer follow up questions, but I haven't been able to find one who would be willing to. I don't have money to pay for their time.

[XXII]

Sbu,

The issue here is that you are applying criteria for verification that belong to one category to another. Of course, you might say that this is so precisely because proponents use language that muddies the waters, but I think that these are metaphors that illustrate the type of differences which arise when one cosiders these two different planes. They are meant to be a map, not to claim to be the territory.

Moreover, if the nature of these "planes" is radically psychological in nature, then a metaphor would be a creative force to be reckoned with. Sure, that we call them 'higher vibrations' and that 'light' predominates over 'darkness' is a result of the cultural values, but it doesn't detract from their reality. Dreams aren't any less real because they are symbolic. If the putative afterlife is something like a shared dream, wouldn't you expect it to be a symbolic landscape?

[Juan]

Sbu

All matter vibrates because it has some temperature and the temperature is molecular motion, but the most plausible is that mediumistic communicators not be referring to this form of vibration. That may be referring to something like string theory: according to this theory, all subatomic particles are vibrations of more fundamental structures that can be called strings, so that communicators can not be so misguided on the structure of reality. Or what communicators say has nothing to do with string theory, but this already shows that state that the material plane vibrate at lower frequencies are not mere words.

About reincarnation, we noticed that many mediumistic communicators do not speak of it, and others do, but this can be interpreted in different ways. As stated, "Myers' once, is as absurd to believe that at death we unveil the secrets of the afterlife as believe that at birth reveals the secrets of life, so that individuals at death did not believe in reincarnation, not talk about reincarnation through a medium. And on the idea that mediumistic communications reflect the expectations of the sitters, I think is a mistake, that investigations of Hodgson with Mrs. Piper allow us to conclude that communicators are independent of the sitters and mediums themselves:
http:/ / ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2009/05/further-record-of-observations-of.html

[Kathleen]

"It's supposed to be like radio waves."

This is how it was described in a book, "Across the Line, by Anice Terhune, who, through automatic writing, was supposedly communicating to her deceased husband, Albert. He described making contact with her as a very difficult process and involved an energy similar to radio waves. He described the afterlife as consisting of everything that's on earth but in its ideal form. He also said there was reincarnation, which was interesting, as he and his wife were very Christian. But he did say that both he and she did not have to reincarnate anymore. He supposedly was able to guide her in an earthly task. He also said in the afterlife he met a relative of hers and named her. She denied having this relative - a great, great aunt - but later was able to verify that this woman was indeed her great, great aunt.

[sbu]

but I think that these are metaphors that illustrate the type of differences which arise when one cosiders these two different planes.

The problem is that the intepretation of metaphors like "Vibrations", "Energy" is subjective. For a physicist where these terms have a precise definition it must be painful to see them put into such a loose context.

I'm however much more concerned about the consistency of afterlife descriptions. I have tried to find some hints in the Leslie Flint communications for "Energy" and "Vibrations" but unfortunately I haven't been successful. That brought up the additional concern of the missing reincarnation component in victorian days medium communications. This is a problem that can't be explained away by different usages of symbolic language and metaphors.

[Michael Prescott]

"classic communications with e.g. Leonora Piper did not mention reincarnation at all - because reincarnation wasn't a popular notion back in the victorian days. Then Ian Stevenson comes along and gives reincarnation a great revival in the western culture and suddenly reincarnation becomes a common ingredient in medium communications."

Your basic point is correct, but the popularity of reincarnation in what might be called "occult" circles predates Stevenson's work. It has more to do with the rise of Madame Blavatsky and Theosophy, IMO.

"Even the owner of this blog frequently expresses doubt about the existence of an afterlife based on the available evidence."

True. I've never been 100% convinced. I am 100% convinced of some psi phenomena, like ESP and poltergeist activity (I'm not saying poltergeists are necessarily ghosts; they could be PK manifestations). But life after death is tricky. The super-psi explanation can't be completely discounted. Some of the evidence dovetails nicely, but then there are irritating inconsistencies. I think life after death is more likely than not, but I don't think it's proved beyond doubt. Not beyond my doubt anyway.

I also don't know if I necessarily *want* life after death to be true. It seems to me that while there is a possible upside to an afterlife, there's also a possible downside. What if it turns out to be hellish? What if it's an eternity of chaos and confusion, a nightmare that never ends? What if it's an eternal round of earthly incarnations, most of which involve suffering and misery? In some respects personal annihilation seems preferable. In the case of annihilation, nothing good can happen to you again, but nothing bad can happen either! This might not be such a bad tradeoff, given the alternatives.

[Michael Prescott]

BTW, the most "technical" book on the whole issue of vibrations and the afterlife is The Unobstructed Universe, by Stewart Edward White, which can be read online:

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301131.txt

I'm not saying the explanation offered in this book is correct, only that it's more detailed than any other i've seen.

An interesting case for the afterlife as a fifth dimension is made in the book To Die For, by James L. Beichler. On a website Beichler says he's developed " a fundamental theory of physical reality called ‘single [operational] field theory’ or SOFT ... based on a five-dimensional Einstein-Kaluza space-time geometry. Explanations of paranormal phenomena as well as the survival of consciousness emerge naturally from this space-time structure."

http://afterliferesearchcentre.ning.com/profile/JamesEBeichler

If you use the Google search box on this page to look up the term "Beichler," you'll find a few posts I wrote about his book.

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

"BTW, the most "technical" book on the whole issue of vibrations and the afterlife is The Unobstructed Universe, by Stewart Edward White,"

I read this twice. I have mixed feelings about it. They really tried hard to explain things and it is interesting in a philosophical way and worth reading because it gives you an idea about the relation between the physical world and the spirit world and consciousness. But they don't connect their ideas to known scientific phenomena.

I think part of the problem is that the spirits communicated scientific information through a medium who was a housewife not a scientist, and the information was written down, interpreted, and explained by a fiction writer (Stewart White) who was also not a scientist. I think it lost something in the translation.

It says things like "matter is an attribute of consciousness" which is nice philosophically, but they don't tell you how to use that for practical purposes or give you a formula that explains how it happens.

You can't test anything in that book to verify it.

In my opinion it is interesting and worth reading for it's cosmology, but there is no practical application for the information in it.

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

Other books by Stewart White available at:

http://www.spiritwritings.com/library.html

The Betty Book

Across the Unknown

I really liked The Betty Book it tells how she got started as a medium.

"As with numerous others, our interest in the ouija board began quite casually. On the date I have mentioned, some friends called on us bringing one of these with them. They had bought it as a toy, to try Out,without belief that anything in particular would happen to it.

...

But once, in the middle of our laughter and buffooning, the glass moved with a sharp quick decision as though impatient, in striking contrast to its customary fumbling.

"Why do you ask foolish questions?" it spelled.

Those sitting at the board denied having anything to do with this: it was too apropos! Nevertheless we suspected them, and they suspected each other.

....

Next our attention was caught by the repeated spelling out of the name Betty. Now there was present a young woman nicknamed Betty. She was standing in front of the fireplace after a very brief trial at the board-and a somewhat scornful trial at that. We insisted that she was being paged and that she must try again. She was reluctant, thinking this merely an attempt of those sitting to lure her back into the game, but finally yielded and took her place.

Immediately her fingers touched the glass it began to move in circles. Around and around it went, faster and faster until she and her partner could hardly keep their fingers on it. So comically like a dog frisking in delight was it that we all burst into laughter.

"It's glad to get Betty," said we."

[Zerdini]

MP wrote: I think life after death is more likely than not, but I don't think it's proved beyond doubt. Not beyond my doubt anyway.

Of course it isn't.
Until you've experienced all the different forms of mediumship and the evidence of survival they produce you would be extremely foolish to claim life after death has been proved beyond doubt.

It is the accumulation of personal evidence that is convincing to the enquirer.

Maurice Barbanell writing in his book “Spiritualism Today”:

“The evidence for Survival continues to accumulate. As I write these words, my gaze is fixed on an ever-growing library of hundreds of volumes attesting to the reality of psychic phenomena. The proofs are cumulative. And conviction, once obtained, endures for all time.

“Because of my professional occupation (journalist and former editor of “Psychic News” and “Two Worlds”) it has been, and still is, my good fortune to witness every phase of mediumship, and frequently at its best. Mine inevitably is a ringside seat.

"Naturally I am familiar with all the theories and explanations advanced as alternatives to the one I know to be right.

“It is, of course, true that a single theory might explain one phenomenon.

"Telepathy could be advanced as an explanation of clairvoyance. The working of the subconscious mind might be an alternative theory to some spirit communication.

“Sometimes I think that the ‘explanations’ are far more extraordinary and incapable of proof than the simple fact that Survival has been repeatedly demonstrated. What the sceptic often fails to realise is that, though he may be able to explain away one phenomenon, his theory cannot dismiss all the phenomena. They are interlocking and form a consistent pattern.

“It is still true, as the Bible has it, that some will not believe ‘though one rose from the dead’. And it is equally a fact that the truth can be so simple that intellectuals will not accept it because their brains get in the way. ‘Except ye become as little children. . .‘ After all, ‘for such is the kingdom of heaven’.

“My old friend, Hannen Swaffer, that supreme journalist who was affectionately nicknamed ‘The Pope of Fleet Street’ by his colleagues, pithily expressed the truth in typical idiosyncratic fashion. When he became a convinced Spiritualist after long-tried and tested inquiry, he said to me, ‘In the end we must win, for death is our greatest propagandist.’

“Put another way, this simply means that death is the one fact that cannot be dismissed in human life. Everybody has to die at some time. Despite an American project, deep-freeze physical immortality has not so far proved possible, nor do I think it ever will. At some stage we all must experience the inevitable fact of death.

“It is then that for many people comes the demand to ascertain what, if anything, lies beyond it. It is then, alas, that for too many orthodox religion cannot provide comfort in their bereavement. Indeed, I am all too familiar with the fact that it causes some to rail against a God who has ‘taken away the one I love the most’. Thus, even if prelates fail to realise it, and it is to their discredit when they do not, Spiritualism in truth is religion’s greatest ally. It removes the sting of death and reveals a victory over the grave.”

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

The Betty book was written long before the Unobstructed Universe. The Unobstructed Universe was actually written after Betty died and she is one of the spirit communicators.

The medium in the Unobstructed Universe is Joan. The development of her mediumship is described in "Our Unseen Guest" which I enjoyed reading and is also available at:

http://www.spiritwritings.com/library.html

OUR first experience with psychic phenomena occurred on the evening of December 7, 1916---by way of a ouija­board. Neither Joan nor I had ever seen a ouija­board before. The "toy" came into our hands quite by accident. We were taking our dinners at a private boarding­house some blocks from the apartment building in which we lived. On the evening in question a sudden storm blew off the lake, while we were at table, and after the meal Joan and I wandered into a deserted sitting­room to wait until the wind and sleet abated. There one of the resident guests had left the ouija, a remnant doubtless of some Halloween party.

"How does the thing work?" Joan asked.

I read the directions; we rested the board, whereon the alphabet was printed in two semi­circles upon our knees, and put the tips of our fingers on the flatiron­like pointer.

"Now," said I, "this tripod affair is supposed to move from letter to letter, spelling out a message."

Thus we sat for a period---ten minutes, perhaps. We joked, I remember, of the good fortunes ouija would tell us. But no message came. Then, just as we were about to give up, the tripod began to move.

"Quality of consciousness," it spelled. A pause---then, once more, "Quality of consciousness."

"Darby!" Joan took her fingers from the pointer. "You can't fool me like that. You did it! 'Quality of consciousness'---that doesn't mean anything, anyway."

I looked into Joan's eyes. Was it she who had moved the tripod, or did she honestly accuse me?

"Not guilty!" I pleaded. For a moment we faced each other in silence. Then said Joan, gravely, "Let's try it again." So we tried it again.

On the instant the tripod gathered strength. Over the alphabet it moved, slowly, yet with machine­like precision, pausing on this letter and that. Here are the words it spelled: "For you two I have a message, a revelation....

[jshgfcre98ijyds]

"I think part of the problem is that the spirits communicated scientific information through a medium who was a housewife not a scientist, and the information was written down, interpreted, and explained by a fiction writer (Stewart White) who was also not a scientist. I think it lost something in the translation."

Actually it is worse than I described. The principal spirit communicator was also not a scientist but the spirit of a housewife, a deceased medium. She acted as the intermediary between the spirit scientists and the living medium. I think there were too many steps and too many non scientists between the spirit scientists and the writer of the book for them to be able to produce a book that would be satisfying to a living scientist or engineer.

[MickeyD]

A little post halloween comic relief:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3912378/Things-that-go-hump-in-the-night.html

[Matt Rouge]

Michael,

I think what you wrote is spot on. I think the problem with being "100% convinced" about the Afterlife is this: "How do we know what we're to be convinced *of*?"

Am I convinced that there are real phenomena related to what we commonly term the Afterlife? Absolutely. Do I feel that survival of some sort of another has been proven? Absolutely.

So that sounds like I'm convinced, right? Yet... I still don't know what happens to *all* of us when we die. The vision presented by NDEs seems very nice and good, yet I still fear that such a world won't be there for *me* when I go.

I guess my greatest fear is somewhat like yours: "What if it's an eternity of chaos and confusion, a nightmare that never ends?" IOW, the Wheel of Samsara.

Then again, maybe I'll have an NDE someday and it will all make sense and seem great. What does seem absent is a God or other "controlling authority" who can just pat us on the back and let us know that it's all going to be OK in a completely convincing way.

Atheists tend to think that "belief" is all comfort and wish-fulfillment. It's not true. In many way, a simple material world with annihilation at the end would be much easier to deal with. Such a world would erase 99% of the philosophical conundrums and give people a clear Epicurean path by which to live, if they cared in the first place.

I lived in that world for a short period (age 13-14, basically), and I had fun sneering at the believers like most skeptics do. But psi entered my life fairly dramatically in high school, and I couldn't deny the phenomena I was experiencing. I read further, and I concluded that not everything I read could be BS. Something was up. I could not hang onto the simple material world.

Psi and the Afterlife are not the only rabbit holes. Something is up with UFOs and alien abductions, too, and it's not something comforting, either. Sometimes the world seems like a puzzle with mismatched pieces barely held together by collective consciousness or some similar foundational power.

So I will say to sbu, in all seriousness, do you understand the psychology at work among the "believers" of this blog? It's very complex. When we talk about vibrations and all that, we are trying to make sense of phenomena that we can't deny and don't always feel peachy-keen about believing in. I would enjoy discussing things with a skeptic who really got how complicated it all is, but usually the empathy and understanding is just not there that would make the conversation worthwhile.

Cheers,

Matt

[Douglas]

Amen Matt. I totally get your post.

SBU complains about use of terminology. Hovever, he's being polite. Some harcore skeptics will openly sneer at 'misuse of scientific language'.

The problem is that many people who have experienced NDE/psychic phenomena, struggle to find the words in the english language to fully convey the nature of their experiences - the language falls short.

Sneering responses don't help matters in this regard, and only serve to reduce any useful dialogue to zero.

[Robert]

Michael,

Thank you for providing the Beichler references. I have only been visiting here for a few weeks and hadn't seen them previously. I read those posts and now I am getting his books to check further. What interests me is that it apparently provides a plausible "mechanism" (as I was looking for in a previous comment) that could propogate psi phenomena in our four-dimensional spacetime. I have always had problems with NDEs, mediums, remote viewing and all the rest because without some kind of unifying theory it's just as plausible that they're all illusions of the mind or fraud instead of "real" events. I know many of the commenters here will dispute that (see above) but I still haven't found that video of a table moving in bright light with no on touching it...

[sbu]

So I will say to sbu, in all seriousness, do you understand the psychology at work among the "believers" of this blog?

I'm not accusing you of believing because of fear of death - I assume this is what you are suggesting?

My concern about your writings goes far beyond terminology. First you write with great certainty
Lower-energy = The Afterlife vibrates at a higher energy level than the material world. When people cross over, they move up to that energy level. Thus, a lower-energy spirit stays closer to the energy here on earth. That's why they can still influence material things more easily than spirits that have crossed over. The spirits of evil people are also said to vibrate at a really low level and can go to bad places in the afterlife. However, they will have the chance to raise their vibrations later; there is no permanent hell.

Later in the thread you confidence is reduced to:

So that sounds like I'm convinced, right? Yet... I still don't know what happens to *all* of us when we die. The vision presented by NDEs seems very nice and good, yet I still fear that such a world won't be there for *me* when I go.

I guess my greatest fear is somewhat like yours: "What if it's an eternity of chaos and confusion, a nightmare that never ends?" IOW, the Wheel of Samsara.

So - you don't know. Then write something else to Kathleen?

Further you write:

What does seem absent is a God or other "controlling authority" who can just pat us on the back and let us know that it's all going to be OK in a completely convincing way.

But if you listen to e.g. the Leslie Flint communications the spirits do mention God. Like the reincarnation component the existence of God is obviously an absolut key element in any discussion about an afterlife.

So unless you happen to know which evidence that's real and what's fake e.g. the Leslie Flint communications, then there is no way you can say anything meaningful about the afterlife.

In fact the super-psi hypothesis looks really strong, unfortunately. The unconsciousness/consciousness expectations of the sitter/medium seems to be a key element in medium communications.

Michael, Thank you for providing the Beichler references - it looks really interesting. I'm looking forward to study it into more depth - it's very challenging material.

[Juan]

Sbu,

In some cases at least has been shown that mediumistic communicators are independent of conscious and unconscious expectations of the sitters, as shown in this blog:
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2009/05/further-record-of-observations-of.html

[Matt Rouge]

Sbu,

That critique is fine if I am coming here and holding myself up as an authority on the Afterlife, which of course I'm not.

This is truly the greatest frontier that exists right now for humanity: understanding the phenomena (which I *am* 100% certain are real and need to be explained) and putting them in a picture that makes sense.

Copernicus was right about the earth going around the sun. He was wrong about a lot of stuff, however. For example, he thought the planets had circular orbits. Kepler came up with the ellipses. Still, we needed Einstein to understand the orbit of Mercury.

And so on, with the caveat that this stuff is a heck of a lot more complex than celestial mechanics.

We are having exploratory discussions here. You seem to want to critique stuff as though we were submitting mathematical proofs for your approval. Thus, much of your participation here seems to come down to a kind of category mistake.

BTW, if you think super-psi is a plausible hypothesis, then are you admitting that psi itself is real?

Cheers,

Matt

[sbu]

Juan, Matt I'm well aware of the issues with super psi as well. MP has discussed these in a number of threads over the years. But I still find the consistency problems with medium communications as a major issue not easily explained away,

With the disappearence of the traditional physical, direct voice and trance mediumsships the only source to accumulate new evidence is from so-called mental mediumsships. I however believe they all are either fraudelent or self-deceived without any psychical abilities. In the UK this halloween they designed a test where the so-called medium (psychic-Sally) was supposed to match a least 7 out of 10 images of different persons to names on a list. There was 10 names totally on the list each matching one image. Of course she didn't show up even though such a simple and basic test should be a walk in the park compared to what she claims to be able of. It's the same over and over agains with the so-called mediums. Whenever asked to produce something that can actually be verified they suddenly loose contact to the spirits.

Personally I'm only convinced of the existence of telepathy and precognition. Especially in the spontaneous cases.

[Bruce Siegel]

sbu said:

"Personally I'm only convinced of the existence of telepathy and precognition"

I too believe in precognition because of my own (and others') precognitive dreams.

So if you believe in precognition, how can you believe that death is what it seems to be? Because if precognition is real, then the future exists NOW. And if the present (which is tomorrow's past) and the future co-exist, how can I ever die?

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying, but it does seem to me that once time is understood to be an illusion of the physical plane, the factors necessary for what we think of as death disappear.

[sbu]

Bruce, I didn't say I don't believe in an afterlife - my only point was that an objective evaluation of the best mediumsship evidence over the century raises some doubt whether anyone ever has been in contact with a desceased spirit. I don't believe we truly know anything/enough about a possible afterlife.

I too believe in precognition because of my own (and others') precognitive dreams.

Exactly - this is one of the few experiences I have had myself before I got spoiled. I however prefer to believe we got free will even though I see the slight conflict with precognition.

[Leo MacDonald]

Though these are just personal experiences I like to share them with everyone here. A lot of strange things have been having at my house with my mom. Well my mother told me last night she has saw my father at least a couple of times well she was awake she don't me she was dreaming it. She saw him sitting next to her clothes.

Plus a music box that my father bought my mother one day turned on last year on its own. Also my father used to not like the christmas movie a Christmas Story while last year for some reason that movie fell down while all the other christmas movies were tightly together. Other weird things like my mother's door opening up by itself with no windows open no cat near it neither was I or her near the door.

Also my mom said my cat looks and stays up at night while sleeping with her at night. My mother told me she doesn't expect anyone to believe her that she knows what she saw those nights when she saw my father. I believe her because I know my mother would never lie.

[Bruce Siegel]

"Exactly - this is one of the few experiences I have had myself before I got spoiled."

What do you mean by "spoiled" sbu?

[Matt Rouge]

Well, sbu, thank you for making your position clearer.

I think it's even more complicated than we've heretofore discussed.

Have you heard of Mark Macy and his work in instrumental transcommunication? That's basically using physical technology to communicate with spirits. I'm pretty convinced that he and his colleagues have gotten some results. I worked with Mark (and Victor Zammit, among others) in a resonance working group in 2003 or so.

Here is his most recent blog post:

http://macyafterlife.com/2011/11/05/the-human-story-3-an-ancient-timeline-3/

In this post a spirit comes from an alternate earth (according to one explanation) and is talking about United States nuking Greece!

Mark also has a cosmology, again backed by spirit communications, in which a huge earthlike planet between earth and Mars was the cradle of life in the solar system but eventually blown up when technology got out of hand.

Try integrating all that!

At the same time, I'm not comfortable throwing all communications from mediums and spirits out the window, since they have many, many times come up with veridical information that can't be explained away.

Take John Edward, for example. Sure, a lot of what he says is vague, but then he gets his big hits, too. I also get mediumistic impressions myself from time to time.

So, yes, it's extremely difficult to put all together, but I'm unwilling to throw out the parts, either.

Cheers,

Matt

[sbu]

What do you mean by "spoiled" sbu?

I think your unvolentarily can close your mind for these phenomenas. Emotional stress being one possible trigger.

In this post a spirit comes from an alternate earth (according to one explanation) and is talking about United States nuking Greece!

Isn't that a bit harsh just because they spent our money? :)