Rudolf Smit, who has written extensively about the "dentures" NDE, directed me to this exceptional YouTube account of a veridical NDE in an operating room, as told by the cardiac surgeon who conducted the operation.
The usual explanations of cardiac massage, partial consciousness, hallucination, etc. don't seem to apply here.
Thanks Michael. It is so uplifting and encouraging. I enjoyed it so much I reposted the link to this video on the near-death.com and the NDERF.org message boards and also on my Motely Fool retire early message board and on my facebook page.
Posted by: Art | August 16, 2011 at 01:57 PM
Yes, this is wonderful stuff!
Keep in mind that the surgeon, Dr Lloyd Rudy, is a surgeon of excellent reputation. Het would not be saying something silly!
BTW, it was Tim, formerly a regular visitor to this forum, who directed me to this video in the first place. I then notified several other people within the community of NDE researchers. They were all delighted with this case.
Rudolf Smit
Posted by: Rudolf Smit | August 16, 2011 at 02:44 PM
Amazing case. If this isn't proof of *something*, hard to say what will work for people.
Am I wrong, or does the doctor seem drunk in the video. He does seem to be slurring his words. Just sayin'.
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 16, 2011 at 05:39 PM
Great video! Both of the cases he describes are intriguing, though the first, with its veridical observations, is obviously harder for skeptics to explain.
The doctor doesn't seem drunk to me, Matt, just very relaxed, and at times, emotional. But as you once pointed out, you Irish have more experience in these matters than the rest of us.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | August 16, 2011 at 07:11 PM
Someone will say that if postit notes can be observed then the AWARE study should also get positive hits.
What I heard that I thought was interesting was the surgeon siad he had discussed this case with colleaues at a "special conference".
What special conference? Do doctors have some secret society where they talk about these events among themselves?
Posted by: no one | August 16, 2011 at 07:55 PM
So true, Bruce. :)
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 16, 2011 at 07:55 PM
"What special conference? Do doctors have some secret society where they talk about these events among themselves?"
Maybe it was a conference held for a difference purpose entirely. That was my take on it, anyway.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | August 16, 2011 at 09:14 PM
Probably you're right, Bruce.
It's nice to think they might get together to talk about NDEs, though.
Posted by: no one | August 16, 2011 at 10:02 PM
"It's nice to think they might get together to talk about NDEs, though."
I hear they get together to talk about NDE controversies that arise on this blog.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | August 16, 2011 at 11:24 PM
that was just amazing. i especially like the part where he said he and his cosurgeon and staff felt a presence (the second story he told).
how common is the feeling the presence for everyone, i wonder?
i remember 8 years ago, when i was really sick during the christmas time, when i had to stay in an apartment nearby my college because i couldnt afford to fly home. i was feeling very sick, with a terrible itchy throat that wouldnt go away. i was feeling very lonely at the same time as well, and i prayed and prayed. then suddenly, i felt a presence too- a feeling of warmness and love. then at that moment the itch in my throat went away. then the next day i felt way better- it was almost like being healed overnight.
the presence. how infinite and wondrous it felt to me at the time...
Posted by: TomC | August 17, 2011 at 03:08 AM
Wow, that was a very interesting video. Thanks for sharing the link Michael.
"Both of the cases he describes are intriguing, though the first, with its veridical observations, is obviously harder for skeptics to explain."
I completely agree with you on this one Bruce. The fact the patient said he saw the two doctors standing at the door while he was showing no heart rate or blood pressure is damning enough to any skeptical argument, but the added fact of the specific descriptions of the post it notes, which the doctor said he had no possible way of knowing were there since he didn't have any calls before the operation began and they were at a place where he wouldn't have been able to see them.
I think this is probably one of my favorite NDE stories. Not only is the story being told by a well-respected cardiac surgeon, you can see the wonder and amazement on his face as he is telling this story and how baffled he is.
Thanks again Michael, I think I have found another amazing story to show people.
Posted by: Cody | August 17, 2011 at 04:41 AM
"Thanks again Michael, I think I have found another amazing story to show people."
Another thing that caught my attention was that there are a number of youtube videos with people describing NDE experiences. Seems like more that the last time I did a search on that some time ago.
It seems that at some point a critical mass of information is going to be achieved and the skeptics will simply be drowned out. Maybe even research more $ will begin to flow into the topic as it becomes generally accepted that these events are not so 'extraordinary' afterall (in terms of frequency of ocurrence) and are, instead, quite common and normal, yet that they are of a spiritual nature.
Posted by: no one | August 17, 2011 at 07:04 AM
Yes, it is an exceptional case because of the circumstances. The post it notes particularly. Will it change anything, no, because debunking sceptics will ignore it. I was listening to Michael Schmicker (best Evidence) on skeptiko, an old, but excellent interview. He is so right when he says the majority of sceptics will never change their view no matter what evidence is put in front of them.
Posted by: . | August 17, 2011 at 09:06 AM
Building on what no one said, this is a big deal and represents significant change.
In the 1980s, I would suppose most "big" surgeons would have a problem talking about cases like this, and there was no YouTube to help get the word out when they did. There were books, but there weren't as many. (There was a motion picture documentary about NDEs I remember seeing commercials for in the 1970s when I was a little kid, just to give credit where it's due. Does anyone remember the name of that movie?)
In any case, this is no longer the fringe. Docs are going to keep experiencing this and are going to be saying as a group, "We get so much veridical information, and we know it's true. Sorry, skeptics." We're pretty close to that point already.
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 17, 2011 at 10:04 AM
Keith and Gerry where are you two?
Posted by: Kris | August 17, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Kris, lol. I'm sure Gerry will come around and tell us how incompetent and full of sh*t those docs were in good time.
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 17, 2011 at 10:19 AM
An excellent find by Mr. Smit. I'm particularly pleased to see "The Presence" acknowledged by such an eminent physician. The doctor's obviously genuine expression of humility and awe are, for me, a reaffirmation of the literally Ineffable. Sandy: please view this clip at your earliest convenience.
Posted by: Kevin W. | August 17, 2011 at 11:56 AM
You know, you don't have to rely on the testimony of others to verify for yourself the reality of life out of the body. There are plenty of simple spiritual exercises you can practice to have that Soul Travel experience (not the same as Astral Projection). The simplest is simply singing HU or some other mantra to relax and focus on your third eye, until the external world fades away (usually takes about 20 minutes or so; the key is allowing the Retiacular Activating System to screen out external sensory perception as you focus inward). Then project yourself onto the ceiling or some other place close by.
When you find yourself outside, don't get too excited or you will be immediately pulled back into your body. Also, if you focus on your physical body, you will return.
You can also Dream Travel. One technique to wake up in a dream is to look at your hands several times each day and say "Is this a dream?" Once it is a habit, you will find yourself in a dream, looking at your hands and asking the question. You will then "pop" awake in the dream as it becomes fully lucid. Then you explore.
Once caveat: There are some not-so-great places to visit outside of your body or in the dream worlds (everything you can imagine exists somewhere). If you find yourself there (even in a nightmare), just sing HU. You will be lifted out of it immediately. It's an amazing experience that I've had more than once.
Good journeys.
Posted by: Mark Alexander | August 17, 2011 at 11:59 AM
@Kris - I have notified Woerlee (=Gerry) about this video. He watched it and up to now his reaction hs been fairly neutral. He says that more data are needed before he can make a judgement. Which of course is a correct assessment.
As for the hardnosed skeptics most probably they remain silent, or their only possible response will be the usual ploy: the story was made up. But then they are making fools of themselves.
Rudolf Smit
Posted by: Rudolf Smit | August 17, 2011 at 12:15 PM
"It seems that at some point a critical mass of information is going to be achieved and the skeptics will simply be drowned out." - no one
--------------------------------------------
It's like a big puzzle with lots of pieces or like that game show on TV where you guess letters and as the letters to the saying up on the board get filled in eventually someone is able to guess what the saying is and you wonder to yourself "why didn't I see that before?" And once seeing it is difficult to see it any other way.
It's not really "science", like with experiments and data done in a lab but it's more like a jury trial with witnesses and the defense and the prosecution and you have to look at the faces of the witnesses and guess whether they really saw what they said they saw. You just have to be convinced by the credibility of the witnesses whether it is what it purports to be.
And like all trials some people will be convinced of the guilt of the defendant and some people will believe he is innocent. It is up to each individual to look at the evidence and make up their own mind.
Posted by: Art | August 17, 2011 at 01:12 PM
"There are some not-so-great places to visit outside of your body or in the dream worlds (everything you can imagine exists somewhere)." -Mark
Yes Mark, it puzzles me why this is not generally recognised by people interested in NDEs and OBEs. When an experiencer says, "The end is nigh!" or "The future is bright!", we need only say, "Yes!"
Posted by: Ben | August 17, 2011 at 02:15 PM
All I can tell you now is that the experts are trying to contact this surgeon for more medical data. So sooner or later the whole lot will be written up and appear in the appropriate journals
Rudolf Smit
Posted by: Rudolf Smit | August 17, 2011 at 05:08 PM
While I'm on the side of NDEs, my impression was that the interview only happened because the dr. had a few martinis & opened up to discuss this topic.
Posted by: barbarossa | August 17, 2011 at 06:30 PM
"the dr. had a few martinis"
Matt, I'll never doubt your word again.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | August 17, 2011 at 06:37 PM
That would be awesome Rudolf
This has the potential to be a great case :)
Posted by: Kris | August 17, 2011 at 07:04 PM
Kevin, I liked it so much, I posted it on my blog too. :)
Posted by: Sandy | August 17, 2011 at 07:13 PM
I am convinced there is life after death in some form, and I find many NDE stories compelling and convincing, especially this one.
Yet my guess is that the AWARE study is going to give us "inconclusive" results.
Of course, my HOPE is that the AWARE study will give strongly positive results. Maybe they will be announced in December 2012 and that turns out to be the "big change" that so many people feel is coming.
I don't expect that intellectually. I'm expecting to be disappointed by AWARE...I hate to say it, but I guess I'd rather be pleasantly surprised.
Posted by: John Sickels | August 17, 2011 at 08:39 PM
a guy on the near-death.com board has a good theory as to why someone might not "see" the target in the AWARE study. He said that if the soul somehow is picking up the thoughts of others in the room, and they haven't seen the target because it's randomly generated then there won't be any positive results. Another words after the soul leaves the body it "sees" whatever others see by tapping into others consciousness.
Just now I realized why this might not be true. I have read NDE's where they saw the dust on top of the surgical lights and also they were looking "down" onto the surgical area, seeing from an angle "up above" (which would not be visible to others in the room). So his theory might not be correct?
Posted by: Art | August 17, 2011 at 08:47 PM
or they simply didn't know to look for the bloody thing.
Posted by: Kris | August 17, 2011 at 08:54 PM
Bruce, lol.
This doc was three scrubs to the wind. :)
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 17, 2011 at 09:36 PM
An interesting discussion of the first case in the interview, on the Skeptico blog (starts at post # 2294): http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/1385-skeptiko-random-stuff-thread-230.html . Predictably, the leading skeptic isn't excited and considers this just an interesting story told by a surgeon, and has alternate explanations for everything. His big deal is that he claims the veridical details told by the patient all apply after heartbeart and blood pressure resumed.
Posted by: doubter | August 17, 2011 at 10:23 PM
Well in fairness this one needs to be researched and published in IANDs if possible.
Posted by: Kris | August 17, 2011 at 10:58 PM
The YouTube video is condensed from a 7-minute longer video (currently) at the bottom of this page:
http://www.dentalmastermindgroup.com/2011/07/american-academy-for-oral-systemic-health-first-scientific-session/
The missing section starts at about the 13-minute mark. There, Dr. Rudy rambles a bit about attempts to weigh the soul, and relates a couple of possible synchronistic events.
Also, don't miss the other video of Dr. Rudy that precedes this one. In it he describes how he and his colleagues discovered that heart attacks were caused by blot clots. With so much knee-jerk attention given to the statements and claims of people whose credentials are hard if not impossible to verify (e.g. Michael Newton), it's good to know that Dr. Lloyd Rudy is the real thing.
Posted by: Doug D | August 17, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Very interesting. I would be very interested to hear any alternative explanation to this if it isn't an example of an NDE. The experience seems to me to be straightforward and well-attested. We didn't hear from the other participants in the operation or the patient in this clip but it looks like one well worth properly documenting.
Posted by: Paul | August 18, 2011 at 03:59 AM
As I indicated elsewhere, NDE-researchers are contacting Dr Rudy to find out more.
Posted by: Rudolf Smit | August 18, 2011 at 04:12 AM
I wish the posters that are insinuating that Dr Rudy was inebriated would think before posting comments like that. I know you are only having a joke but the sceptics will seize on that and the case will be tainted. Trust me. They ( you know who I mean) will say or do anything they can to discredit it.
Posted by: . | August 18, 2011 at 05:25 AM
Below, I will post a link to another veridical NDE experienced by a medical doctor:
http://www.origenes.de/nte/Sterbebettvisionen.htm
As you see, this is in German language. Some time ago, I translated it into English (with the author`s permission) for www.nderf.org. I guess it can still be found there. There is another veridical NDE on the origines website.
Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2011 at 05:33 AM
Here is the link to my translation into English:http://www.nderf.org/roseann_dbv.htm
Posted by: Iris | August 18, 2011 at 05:36 AM
"I wish the posters that are insinuating that Dr Rudy was inebriated would think before posting comments like that."
It won't make any difference. Even if he isn't drunk and no body says he was drunk, the sceptics may still say he was.
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2009/05/the-magic-bullet.html
For instance, #2 ("the experimenter was drunk") has been stated or implied about Jule Eisenbud in his investigation of Ted Serios. (Actually it was Serios who was drunk; Eisenbud and his colleagues drank no alcohol during the tests.)
Posted by: jshgfcre98ijyds | August 18, 2011 at 06:41 AM
Whether he was drunk or not in the clip won't affect the documented facts. Anything else would be simply a personal attack. Maybe this is his natural demeanour - only someone who knows him personally would be able tosay. So what if he'd had a drink at the event anyway. Interestingly his account may be corroborated by a least one colleague.
Posted by: Paul | August 18, 2011 at 08:36 AM
Obviously I'm not a skeptic, but if I were, I'd attack this account on two grounds: first, that it's lacking in detail and corroboration, and second, that the passage of time may have allowed the doctor to unconsciously embellish the story and remember it as more miraculous than it was.
These criticisms could be addressed by obtaining more facts and, hopefully, corroboration both from medical records and from other people's testimony.
Personally, I have no reason to doubt the story, but as it stands it is just a story, not a documented case.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | August 18, 2011 at 10:12 AM
When did it occur? I must have missed that.
Posted by: Paul | August 18, 2011 at 10:33 AM
The video was uploaded on the 27th of July 2011, so at the least, the video is pretty recent.
But, I repeat, NDE researchers of IANDS are contacting Dr Lloyd Rudy, so hopefully more and relevant details will emerge. Rudolf Smit
Posted by: Rudolf Smit | August 18, 2011 at 10:53 AM
The thing is, even documented cases such as Pam Reynolds have been effectively ignored. The Lloyd Rudy recollecton is very similar to the Michael Sabom cases but they were no good at persuading the sceptics either. I think even positive hits in the Aware study are going to be challenged.
Posted by: . | August 18, 2011 at 11:04 AM
All this is heavily related to David Wilcock's new book Source Field Investigations (with a video preview he's offered at divinecosmos.com). What if we have that out-of-body being with us all the time, sending information from who knows where?...though we only hear of that being when we're asleep or tranced or in altered state or unconscious.
Fascinating stuff. Thanks
Posted by: R Shuffield | August 18, 2011 at 11:38 AM
You don't need to repeat Rudolf we are simply discussing it.
Who cares what scoftics think about it. As discussed previously, when we have enough info we can all consider it and form our own view about it's likely value can't we?
Posted by: Paul | August 18, 2011 at 12:33 PM
Yeah we need to hurry up and get this case published. This case has a very strong potential of not being user friendly for the dying brain position.
Posted by: Kris | August 18, 2011 at 12:44 PM
"When did it occur? I must have missed that."
It's not stated. Could have been a few months ago, or 20 years ago. If it's been years, then of course the doctor's recollection will be challenged by those who make it their business to challenge such things. Medical records or additional testimony would be helpful, and as Rudolf says, the case is sure to be investigated now.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | August 18, 2011 at 01:29 PM
BTW, I wasn't joking about the doctor being drunk in the video. He really does seem drunk. If the skeptics seize on that as a way to discredit him, that's not my fault (as though no one would notice this without my commenting on it).
Posted by: Matt Rouge | August 18, 2011 at 04:40 PM
Great link. Anyone also catch the neuroscientist Saul on the road to Damascus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlwyU0_M88o&feature=related
Posted by: dmduncan | August 18, 2011 at 06:06 PM