IMG_2361
Blog powered by Typepad

« Hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray, run amok! | Main | Signs »

Comments

Hey Duncan think about this

Pam Reynolds did not report hearing the constant beeping at all. If her hearing was localized and we allow for the possibility she heard normally shouldn't she have heard the beeps. It is one thing to suggest she might have heard the conversation over the beeps but surely isn't it the height of special pleading to think she heard the conversation but not the far louder beeps.

Not necessarily. It seems counter intuitive to how it ought to work, I know, but it's more about what she recalls after the fact than the entirety of what she heard.

But I do believe I've pointed out a way that the question can be persuasively settled even to standards that those like Woerlee could not reasonably object to.

If the ear drum would have been so overwhelmed by the clicking, given how loud and frequent it was, that there was no way for it to respond to the sound waves of the conversation, then that is equal to saying that the data shows what Woerlee is suggesting is impossible because then there would literally be no way for Pam to have heard the conversation at all.

If the ear drum couldn't send signals of that separate auditory object of the conversation, then Pam could not have heard it, and it wouldn't be a matter of what seems impossible to you and possible to Dr. Woerlee.

The best known facts would decide it, not anyone's different impressions of what is possible.

Lets put it this way. As things stand now this is a tremendous problem for any skeptical view of the Pam Reynold's case and it is certainly something skeptics need to address. So far no skeptic has given a remotely logical explanation for how this could have occurred. Even if our side cannot 100% prove it would have been impossible for Pam to hear under those circumstances a rational person can still hold the view she could not hear under normal circumstances.

Duncan, buy two of those keychain alarms that set off 100-decibel waves (which usually have brief pauses between the waves/beeps).

Then hold one up to each ear.

Then ask your friends to speak normally around you.

Then determine if you can process what they're saying.

Now repeat the same exercise when you're drugged up.

Follow-up to my last post:

Make sure your eyes are taped shut

I understand what you are saying, but part of the reason why disagreement remains between reasonable people is because there is no "objective" data cited that shows what Woerlee is suggesting is in fact not possible.

Again, we are not talking about normal states of consciousness here. I don't need a keychain alarm. Ear buds playing music much less than 100db is quite enough for me NOT to be able to hear what somebody is saying to me.

The Pam Reynolds case is about something highly unusual involving states of consciousness that are not normal. So the argument is really about what is POSSIBLE for human beings to do, and that is true whether the final explanation is normal or paranormal.

Either way there is going to be some unusual news made about what is possible.

FWIW, I'm suggesting a way that question may be settled using data about the human ear.

I'm not giving Kris any homework, but he's shown himself to be really interested in the case. That's just the way I would approach responding to Woerlee's claim.

In other words, you are making an Appeal to Incredulity. I understand why. It IS hard to believe. But that shouldn't stop us from seeing what the data says which, in this case, would be the technical specifications of the human ear.

The double slit experiments also caused a good share of incredulity. But the data says what it says. It doesn't matter who doesn't like it.

Duncan

I will sum it up at least for me . I am satisfied that with the description given that Pam Reynolds could not have heard through normal circumstance. Her own doctor agreed with this analysis. Until the "skeptics" can explain how she heard normal I will be satisfied with the view she could not have heard through normal mechanisms.

Now I am very curious about the mechanism that did allow her to hear obvious :)

And yes " skeptics : have some explain to do with the drill too :)

I just felt the earplugs war easier to use for my case :)

The bottom line is that I listened to these people tell their stories and decided that I believe that what they experienced was real. I worked in biomedical research and in a lab for years and saw people with PhD's and D.V.M. degrees doing all kinds of screwy stuff. Science isn't inviolable. At some point you have to just sit back and close your eyes and decide whether "YOU" believe it's true. In the end it's irrelevant what anybody else thinks. What's important to me is what I think. For my own sanity I have to decide for myself.

From Rudolf Smit

What a real, inquisitive scientist would have done

If I had been in Woerlee’s position I would not have relied of what some other medics had said, sometimes ages ago in various medical journals, but I would have resorted to an experimental setup.

Woerlee goes on alleging dat Pam Reynolds had heard by normal means the conversations in the operation theater. Every sound specialist will tell him that under the circumstances (custom made earplugs, 90-100 decibel sound clicks etc – exactly what Kris has told him) it would have been impossible for Pam to hear anything, even if she had been “aware” as Woerlee alleges.

Now, what would a real scientist have done? He would have made an experimental setup. Just take an MP3 player, and modify its earphones so that they closely fit in the ears of a subject, making sure that with the aid of wax and a bandaid the phones would securily be fitted into the auditory channels of the ears.

Next he would play loud music on the earphone, for example a loud passage by a symphony orchestra. A decibel meter can help him to adjust to a level of between 90 and 100 decibels.

Next he would ask in a normal voice, say at a distance of 1,5 metres, questions to the subject. My bet is that the subject would not have heard anything of what he had said.

The experimenter can repeat this with say another 10 subjects. When all of them say that they did not hear the experimenter speak, then Woerlee’s claim would have been falsified. It is that simple.

Another experiment re Woerlee’s claims, which we already hinted at in our rejoinder and which I had suggested to Woerlee a few times is this: Woerlee claims that patient B while being resuscitated had heard all sorts of sounds and on the basis of those sounds had built up an accurate picture of the resusciation room. Nurse TG vigorously denied such possibilities, and Rivas and I concur. As we said in our paper:

“One of us, Smit, has challenged Woerlee a few times via e-mail to set up a simple experiment. Just ask 10 people to sit in a room, blindfold them, and let someone else carry out a few actions. Let that person make some noises with objects, and so on. Then ask those 10 people to make a mental picture of what had happened there and describe it. Every experimental psychologist will tell you that you will get 10 different descriptions and none of them accurate.
Woerlee never responded to this challenge. Yet Woerlee has apparently retained the sincere belief that Mr. B, despite having been in a very dire situation—on the verge of real death and hardly if at all conscious—did accomplish a feat of which any fully conscious professional mentalist would be proud.”

Such experiments would resolve the matter once and for all. Once again, a real inquisitive scientist would have carried out these relatively easy experiments.

Request: Perhaps one of the people participating in this blog is willing to do this and then report back to us? I am not going to do this, because some will say that I am biased in this case. From a scientific point of view this is so, hence an independent researcher should do this.

This is my last contribution on this blog re the dentures man and Woerlee – I have become sick and tired of his allegations, accusations, questioning our integrity and heavens knows what else he has up his sleeve.

Regards to all

Postcript (from Rudolf)

I once did a test myself using wax earplugs, known as "Oropax". I really stuffed those plugs in my ears. But I made sure that all hair on the inside of the auditory channels was trimmed out, next I opened my mouth so as to make sure that the inside air pressure was alleviated via the Eustachian tube. Thus the plugs were securily locked. And then I asked my wife to speak to me in a normal tone - at a distance of about 5 feet. When I looked at her I could follow to some extent what she said. Why? lipreading! But when she turned away her head, I could hardly understand what she said.
Now imagine what would have happened if loud music was also playing in that stuffed-up ear!
In an email I told Woerlee about this little experiment - he ignored it. So much for his scientific curiosity.

"he ignored it." - Rudolf Smit
--------------------------------------------
LOL! Now you know how I feel whenever I mention the connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory. It loudly shouts out to me and seems so obvious but everyone else seems to be oblivious to it. Sigh!

Yes, the Pam Reynolds case IS unusual. I don't see any way of reasonably avoiding that conclusion. Anybody who has been talked to while listening to music wearing even poorly fitting earphones would know that it's impossible to hear what's being said during normal consciousness. So to explain it you must posit an extraordinary explanation either way, whether it ends up being materialistic or dualistic.

To dismiss it as nothing special seems ludicrous to me and a measure of one's own incuriousity to even refuse admitting it is an unusual case. It is by definition unusual to make out a conversation while your eardrums are being bombarded with such noise.

And forget the earphones. Just imagine enough noise in the room that produces the equivalent of 100 db in the ear. What are the odds that you are going to make out the details of a conversation 9' away at normal volume taking place while you are standing right next to a snowmobile revving it's engine or a chainsaw?

You can't make armchair quarterback explanations and leave it untested. It's so unusual that you have to back up that assertion with data that show it's in some sense possible.

Maybe I've forgotten, but did we ever determine with certainty that the clicks were playing during the exact time when the reported conversations took place? There was some question as to whether the clicks played intermittently, rather than throughout the procedure. (Given the high decibel level, which might permanently damage a person's hearing, it might make sense to play the clicks only occasionally.)

We may have cleared this up on another thread, but right now I can't recall.

Yep the clicks played the entire surgery at 11.7 beats per second. Remember the purpose of the clicks was to make sure her brain was not functional.

Look at it this way, if there was any way to contest this don't you think Dr Woerlee would have done so now.

Kris, I think it was 11.3, not 11.7. No biggie :)

I still hope that someone will volunteer to do the tests I proposed above. Because those tests, which are basically quite simple, will settle the matter once and for all. I am willing to set up a sure fire protocol.

Anyone out there?

I would volunteer for it but someone might accuse me of lying if I did not hear anything.

No need to volunteer as a subject, Kris. Someone must be the leader of the experiment. You could do it: collect a number of subjects and one or two independent observers. Piece of cake: done on a sunny winter afternoon! R.

Yeah but I think I might be in a situation where I am accused of being a bit biased :)

Not when you ask two or three independent observers, who keep an eye on everything and take down notes.

Remember I would be reporting on them though, I could always lie to advance the NDE conspiracy :)

Art

Have you read Consciousness Beyond Life by Pim van Lommel?

If so I would really like to get your opinion on the NDE on pgs 36-37

Hi Kris,
Yes, I've read and in fact I liked it so much that I kept it in my "life after death" library. It's in the other room so I'll go get it and re-read pages 36-37. We have a really good huge used book store in Nashville, which I live fairly close to, and they give trade credit for books so if I buy a book that I'm not that crazy about I'll take it to McKay's and trade it in and get "trade credit" for it. So, I'll go get my Pimm Van Lommel book and re-read those pages and we can talk about it! How fun!

By the way, have you read Peter Fenwick's book The Art of Dying? I really liked it. I also recently read Raymond Moody's book Glimpses of Eternity and thought it was excellent! Glimpses of Eternity is very positive and uplifting and I give it two thumbs up! I'm wading through Chris Carter's book right now. It's taking me a little longer to wade through. It's sort of like reading a college textbook.

Hi Kris, I re-read that NDE account. It has a very "holographic" flavor about it. The Life Review is a holographic experience par excellance. You become the other person. I believe the purpose of the life review is not judgement but enlightenment. It's another learning tool. By becoming the other person you learn what it felt like to be them. Feel their emotions, hear their thoughts, etc.

If you meant the part where he talked about reincarnation that is simply him tapping into memories that are stored in the Akashic records. I'm not a huge fan of reincarnation and find it unappealing so I interpret reincarnation as being simply another connectedness-oneness-all knowledge-holographic thing where after we cross over and have "all knowledge" our soul or consciousness becomes connected to all the information in the entire universe and all the memories of everyone who has ever lived are stored in some kind of Universal comsic storehouse.

Sort of like having a holographic DVD library of information and you can take out any DVD you want to and re-play it and identify with the characters and because in a hologram everything is infinitely interconnected to everything else, and everything interpenetrates everything while you are on the other side you think and feel you actually were the other person because you identify so much with them. Sort of like watching a movie and becoming so engrossed with it that you identify with one of the characters.

But the main purpose of the life review is enlightenment and not judgement. It's a learning tool - which is the whole purpose of life. I believe life is a school and we are here to simply learn a few simple lessons.

"I'm not a huge fan of reincarnation and find it unappealing so I interpret reincarnation as being simply another connectedness-oneness-all knowledge-holographic thing"

Hmmm. But then why would a child recall one specific past life, rather than a whole panoply of lives? And why would a hypnotically regressed person remember a sequence of lives that follow one after the other (sometimes including between-life stages in which he prepares for each successive incarnation)?

"after we cross over and have 'all knowledge' our soul or consciousness becomes connected to all the information in the entire universe and all the memories of everyone who has ever lived"

We never seem to hear about this from mediums, though. The usual message is that the deceased person is not very different than he was when he was physically alive -- that any changes that will take place are gradual and evolutionary.

NDEs mostly reflect the same level of consciousness that the person is accustomed to on earth. There are some cases where NDErs say they experienced all knowledge or vastly increased knowledge, but they aren't typical. And it's debatable how valid this "knowledge" is. Dannion Brinkley said his mind was flooded with knowledge; to prove it, he brought back a series of predictions about world events. But his predictions so far have proved wildly wrong.

I'm inclined to think that universal knowledge is reserved for those at the very highest stage of spiritual evolution, which (sadly) rules me out for the foreseeable future!

Rudolf and Michael (and others), I'd be interested in your thoughts on this analysis of the Pam Reynolds case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-InhxLzORzM&feature=related

Dear a!

The Youtube film you are referring to is from Woerlee himself, under his nickame Swiferobi. And you hear his voice - with a slight Australian accent.

As you will understand by now we consider this "analysis" wishful thinking on the part of Woerlee. How fanatic someone can be that he even produces such awful youtube films.

Poor Pam Reynolds - but as you may know she passed away in September (heart attack) so she will no longer have to endure these unfounded allegations about her experience.

We are limited by our human brain. People who have NDE's interpret them according to their culture and former beliefs. Betty Eadie was convinced that the Light was Jesus.

People from other religions interpret the light according to their own preconcieved beliefs. Buddhists believe "Yamdoots" come and carry them to the next life and Buddhist NDE'ers describe Yamdoots escorting them to the other side.

Another words, after the soul returns to the physical body it is once again limited by the memories and brain of the body it formerly inhabited.

As far as I'm concerned reincarnation might as well be annihilation. I see very little difference between reincarnation and what materialist atheists believe. Reincarnation is no "life after death" at all.

If we forget who and what we were before then there is no point to it. Also reincarnation sounds like the grossest and most horrendous form of punishment for something that the people who were limited to their physical bodies and forced to live in a physical universe they had no control over.

Our thoughts and emotions and personality are affected by the biochemistry of the brain which is dependent on the DNA one inherited from one's parents. A large part of who we are is directly attributable to our DNA and another large part of who we are is formed before we are 5 years old from the environment we grew up in, how we were treated, who our parents were, what people said to us, teachers, peers, etc.

In a holographic universe there are no "levels". The duality that we experience in this life won't exist in the next. We don't live for just ourselves. The information that I learn will be accessible to every soul that has ever lived or will ever live on the other side. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are "gods" in training and once we learn the few simple lessons we came here to learn the soul sheds the body like an old suit of clothes and merges back into the holographic spiritual universe. I don't believe in levels or people or souls on the other side being higher or lower or better or better or worse than anyone. We will all be equal, and yes it's a holographic universe thing.

People who have NDEs sit and stew on what they experience and try and figure out what happened to them. Another words, after they come back they try and make sense of it all. They remember bits and pieces of what they were able to carry back with them and they try and put it all together but the problem is that our brains are not large enough or complex enough to put it all together. We are limited by who and what we are. After the soul dies it crosses over into this other holographic dimension and immediately becomes connected to all the information in the entire universe. It's like having a chip in your brain that is connected to the internet and whatever you focus your attention on all the information on that subject is instantly downloaded into your brain. A "bolus of information" all at once, information that is cross correlated and interconnected to where it all makes sense and is understandable. The problem is that after the soul comes back here that connectedness and oneness is lost. Everything becomes linear again and we aren't able to see the connections so easily. The holographic nature of the information is lost.

"After the soul dies it crosses over into this other holographic dimension and immediately becomes connected to all the information in the entire universe."

Okay, but how do you know this? If NDErs can't retain the memory of the experience, and if it can't come through mediums or other sources, then why believe that it even happens?

"As far as I'm concerned reincarnation might as well be annihilation... [When we die] the soul sheds the body like an old suit of clothes and merges back into the holographic spiritual universe."

Merging with the universe sounds sort of like annihilation to me. How would we retain any individuality or sense of self in this scenario? And if we don't, then how is it different from reincarnation?

"There are some cases where NDErs say they experienced all knowledge or vastly increased knowledge, but they aren't typical."

Hi Michael! I'm surprised to hear you say this. It seems to me that a fairly good proportion of NDE'rs say things like "Every question I ever had was answered, as well as many I would never have thought to ask." They claim to have learned about the structure of the universe, beings who live in other worlds, the history of the earth, and much more.

Then they add that they were told they can't bring this information back with them (which makes sense to me for a variety of reasons.) Don't you find this scenario to crop up again and again in your readings?

I should add, though, that you make an interesting point about mediums not corroborating this phenomenon of greatly expanded knowledge. I'll have to take your word on that, though, because you've read a lot more in that area than I.

OK—one more addendum. :o)

In your back-and-forth with Art, I agree with you that levels or planes of reality and understanding do exist. We ourselves live on one of those planes.

But maybe when we leave the body at death, some of us are temporarily leapfrogged beyond the system of levels, and have a brief taste of union with God and all knowledge, before returning to a lower level, where we resume our more gradual path upwards.

I think I myself—as well as many others—have experienced, during deeply altered states, this sort of leapfrogging even while still in the body.

Another possibility, Michael: maybe this is a good example of how, when reading the literature, we each tend to focus on the things we already believe in, or that makes sense to us. The idea of a temporary, mind-blowing expansion of knowledge is something I'm completely comfortable with, so it's possible that I'm more attracted to NDE accounts that feature it. And, of course, the reverse might be true with you.

"Okay, but how do you know this? If NDErs can't retain the memory of the experience, and if it can't come through mediums or other sources, then why believe that it even happens?" - MichaelPrescott

Because it fits with the holographic universe theory. In the original holographic piece of film each piece contains the whole, everything is interconnected, and everything interpenetrates everything.
--------------------------------------------
"Merging with the universe sounds sort of like annihilation to me. How would we retain any individuality or sense of self in this scenario? And if we don't, then how is it different from reincarnation?" - MP

That is why our lessons on this earth have to be so intense, emotional, and powerful. They have to be emotional enough to where the soul will remember what it felt like to be separate. Powerful enough to overcome those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness in Heaven. Each individual soul has to individually experience for itself what it felt like to be separate. All the horrible things we experience in this life have to happen the way they do and we have to believe they are real or our souls wouldn't be able to maintain that sense of uniqueness that we take so much for granted in this life. This earth life is a school and the soul is here simply to experience duality and separation, time and space, and make memories of what it felt like to be limited to or inhabit a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

Becoming separate unique individuals and learning what it means and how it feels to be separate is the whole point of life. Life is one big long lesson in separation. From the instant we separate from our mothers and the umbilical cord is cut in two till the moment we die and our death's become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind. Divorce, different religions, races, cultures, languages, dialects, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, looks, weight and height, the shapes of our faces, different shape teeth, ears, noses, hair, etc. are all little lessons for the soul on what it means and how it feels to be separate.

And separation doesn't just have to be about people. In a hologram ALL INFORMATION is interconnected so even things like picking a tomato off a vine, or picking a grape or even getting up and using the restroom is a lesson in separation. Dropping a knife on the floor is a lesson in time and space, walking, riding in a car, riding a bicycle, flying in an airplane, are also lessons in what time and space look and feel like.

In the original holographic film time and space wouldn't really exist because all the information is spread throughout the entire piece of holographic film.

After our souls are no longer limited to our physical bodies they expand outwards to occupy the entire Universe, and maybe the entire multi-verse. Whatever they focus their attention on, that is what they experience. Whatever we dwell on, that is what we will experience. If you think of Miocene you will literally feel like you are there experiencing everything about that time and place in the Earth's history. But the really neat thing is that you won't be limited to just the Earth's history but the history of the entire Universe. We will be able to explore and experience all the planets and asteroids and comets and everything that exists in this holographic reality. As to what else the hologram contains we can only imagine.

"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE, http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

The reason we come here is sort of exactly the opposite of the Borg Collective. Instead of being assimilated we come here to become UN-assimilated. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn regardless of who we are, or where we live, or what we believe. And resistance is futile. It's not like a knuckleheaded 5th grade boy that refuses to pay attention and learn. You don't have to go looking for duality and separation - they will find you no matter where you live or what you believe. If you live long enough in this life you will lose someone you love.

The most intense and emotional lesson in what it means and how it feels to be separate is when someone we love dies. Nothing else comes close. And I believe that is why we will never be allowed to know absolutely 100% for certain that there is life after death because if we knew absolutely for certaint that one day we were going to be reunited with all our loved ones in heaven we might not mourn quite as much and death would cease to be the powerful lesson in separation that it is.

"It seems to me that a fairly good proportion of NDE'rs say things like 'Every question I ever had was answered, as well as many I would never have thought to ask.'"

Bruce, I haven't made a formal study of it, but from what I can tell, it's not typical. It doesn't even make the list of most common features, which are: feelings of calmness; pure light; OBE; entering another realm; encountering spiritual beings; a tunnel; communication with spirits; life review.

In her excellent book Changes of Mind, Jenny Wade looks at NDEs and concludes that the level of consciousness reported by most NDErs is not significantly higher than their ordinary consciousness, and doesn't approach the higher levels that some people achieve through meditation, peak experiences, etc.

There are exceptional NDEs, though. Here's part of one reported by "Daniel A":

"[I] then became immersed in infinite peace; bliss; ecstasy. Unimaginable love; understanding so great, powerful; so awesome as to be humanly incomprehensible. While I was there (and only there), access was given to knowledge; 'everything that ever was, is, and will be.' The true nature of the universe was suddenly clear as a bell, like a giant jigsaw puzzle. It seemed to have a perfect order to it...in fact, it was evident that I was soon to become part of it. I was about to join the entity which could only be described as... God; so vast in dimension and scope only biblical words can come close to describing. I wasn't able to retain the knowledge given; the human brain is much too primitive and limited to house it. This intelligence requires an entirely different dimension to exist and comprehend. Yet it is part of our three dimensions as well...just hidden out of view of our 5 senses. Yet I retain enough to remember the sheer awe."

Source: http://www.nderf.org/daniel_a_nde.htm

Note that this NDEr has created a web page, which is linked to the URL given above, in which he seems to cast himself as a Biblical prophet. One of his predictions was that Y2K would be a massive catastrophe. Naturally the failure of this prediction has not soured him on his other revelations...

I wasn't even aware of this guy when I started writing this comment. I just Googled "near-death experience" + "all knowledge," and his NDE came up. But it's interesting that the first example I found has turned out to be kind of flaky.

"I think I myself—as well as many others—have experienced, during deeply altered states, this sort of leapfrogging even while still in the body." Bruce S.

Yes. Agreed. Then only to return - sooner or later - to my own habits of thought, feeling and behavior. I suspect that those NDEs that do report access to unlimited information and a connectedness to everything are along the same lines. It may well be that had those people actually died they too would have returned to some more typical level of spritual awareness; albeit on some bardo plane.

Another thought I have is that NDEs that report in the way that Art likes are from people who are not previously experienced with hightened/altered states of consciousness and their first taste of this sort of thing blows their minds, but isn't, in reality, all they are saying it is. Having every question answered, being connected to the universe, feeling a pervasive limitless love...these are all not infrequently reported by practiced meditators and some people using psychedelics under the right set and setting.....I've been there and I've had friends that have been there. It's really quite dazzling at first. But, over time, one begins to realize that while one actually did enjoy knowledge of higher orders of understanding, 1. one didn't really get all of the ultimate answers and 2. the knowledge isn't necesarily applicable in the material daily grind and hence sort of fades in signficance over time.

So, I guess my question to Art is this; how do we know that NDEs reporting these holographic elements are what they claim to be? How do we know that a person truly obtained? that "access was given to knowledge; everything that ever was, is, and will be."?

How do we know that all of that isn't an expression of a feeling versus a fact?

"Jenny Wade looks at NDEs and concludes that the level of consciousness reported by most NDErs is not significantly higher than their ordinary consciousness, and doesn't approach the higher levels that some people achieve through meditation, peak experiences, etc"

Again, this really surprises me. Which is not to say that it's wrong, but that it goes against my own impression of NDE's. For example, I've been reading a lot on the NDERF site lately, and I bookmarked three NDE accounts recently that I plan to download to my ipod because I like them so much.

I just checked all three, and in two of them, the experiencers strongly emphasize the seemingly limitless knowledge they temporarily enjoyed. The third hints in this direction but is less explicit.

Now it's quite possible that I chose these accounts for this very reason! In fact, more and more, I'm thinking that's the case.

But it never occurred to me that this was a personal bias. I've always thought of a sudden immersion in knowledge and insight as a hallmark of the NDE. I'll have to reconsider this.

By the way, you've twice today commented on the inaccuracy of experiencers' precognitions. I too, have come to realize that these predictions are not to be trusted. EXCEPT that, in many cases, NDER's talk about receiving advance information about their own personal futures, and this information seems to be much more reliable and even impressive.

I agree with you, incidentally, that the guy whose site you linked to seems pretty strange. But I certainly don't have that feeling about everyone who claims to have had experiences of all-knowing.

To clarify, Michael: do you doubt the validity of ALL claims of omniscience (or something like it) during an NDE?


"....But it's interesting that the first example I found has turned out to be kind of flaky." Michael P.

That's what I'm talking about. Someone probably unfamiliar with altered states of consciousness suddenly experiences a fairly dramatic one and gets all kinds of carried away with it to the point of thinking he is now a prophet.

Daniel describes a powerful but not extraordinary state of awareness. Many practiced at the art of meditation or psychedelic use would recognize the place Daniel visited as special, yet familiar. They would also tend to offer a calmer and more circumspect interpretation of the significance of the visit.

I suppose that somewhere in the world there may still be tribal people who know nothing of airplanes. Imagine finding one of these people and taking him/her up for a flight over the tribal territory. Imagine the descriptions that the tribesperson would offer to the other members after returning to the ground. Imagine the theories (and religion?) they would create based on that first flight. And they'd be mostly way off base.

If you are summoned to be a juror and they bring witnesses the more witnesses that testify the more you might accept that what they say is true actually is. I have read a plethora of NDEs that have a very strong holographic flavor to them. I highly doubt this could happen accidentally. Very few people know or understand the implications of what it means to live in a holographic universe. I'm willing to bet that most people who have had NDEs have even heard of the holographic universe theory.

The physics of the original holographic film would be very different than this universe. All knowledge, "bolus of information" (instant downloading of information - all at once), 360 degree vision, connectedness and oneness, overwhelming love, more consciousness than normal, "realer than real", feeling like you are literally everywhere in the universe at once, time and space not existing, being able to experience any time and place in history simply by focusing your attention on it, communicating telepathically, etc. are all things one might expect in the "holographic film" universe.

There are two parts to a holographic universe. There is the original film and then there is the holographic projection from the film. We presently live in the "projection" or "the place of separation." The other side would be the place of "connectedness and oneness." A place where everything interpenetrates everything and where is infinitely connected to everything else.

The really great thing about it is though is that we don't really lose anything. All the stuff on this side that we loved and lost will still exist on the other side. If it is here, it also must exist there.

And because there is a certain inherent degree of blurriness in a holographic projection - then the other side, the original holographic film from whence this side derives it's reality from, will feel even more real to us than this side does. The difference will be that we will be able to experience any time and place in the history of the Universe simply by thinking about it. We will be like Hiro Nakamura on Heroes (TV show) and become masters of space and time. Perhaps this is why Jesus told the pharisees in the gospel of John, "is it not written, "you are gods."

"My mind and thoughts were moving as fast as lightening. Everything was like crystal. I understood everything and again there was absolutely no fear.......I was going backward as if I was going away from that place of separation." - excerpt from RoseMarie's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/rosemarie_w_nde.htm

And this is the reason why the other side seems "realer than real." The blurriness that exists in a holographic projection (this side) won't exist in the original holographic film (heaven).

"Since the volume of the spherical universe is much bigger than its outer surface, how could this be true? Hogan realized that in order to have the same number of bits inside the universe as on the boundary, the world inside must be made up of grains bigger than the Planck length. ‘Or, to put it another way, a holographic universe is blurry,’ says Hogan."

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/

You are mixing things up Art. There is no indication that Hogan links his theory of a holographic universive to consciousness. All he is saying is that space time might not be continuous. He could still be a materialist regarding the brain as a computer.

sbu, I'm linking the two together. I'm smart enough to see the connection between the two. It is irrelevant to me whether Hogan can see it or not. I can see it. The connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory is obvious to me and by the way Hogan's research explains why the other side will seem even more real to us than this side does.

And I'm not the only one who sees it. Dr. Ken Ring has a chapter in his book "Life At Death" about the connection between NDEs and the holographic Universe. Dr. Melvin Morse devotes several pages to it in his book Where God Lives, and Dr. Edgar Mitchell sees the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe, and Dr. Oswald Harding wrote a whole book about it called Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation. I have also read other books that mention the connection between the two.

excerpt from Chamisa's NDE:
"Everything in a hologram. The ability to see and know everything at once. Seeing through walls. Knowing the past, present and future of people in surgery and seeing family members and what they were doing."

http://www.nderf.org/chamisa_h_nde.htm

excerpt from Kelly K's NDE:
"The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected."
http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

from Victor Solow's NDE:
"I was moving at high speed toward a net of great luminosity."
http://tatfoundation.org/forum2003-12.htm

As far as my ideas about "why we are here"? It all depends on how smart you think the Creator of the Universe was. If this Universe was designed to teach us "what it means to love" and "oneness with God" it is very poorly designed indeed. Very few people are successful. If we have to repeat the experience numerous times to be successful than the Creator of the Universe wasn't very smart or successful in creating this universe. It is like a teacher where 95% of her students fail every year and have to repeat the class.

But, if the purpose of this life is to experience duality and separation, time and space, and imprint memories of the physical body then the Creator of the Universe was brilliant because this Universe is perfectly designed to teach us those lessons and because of the holographic nature of our universe - where everything is infinitely connected to each other - then even little tiny babies that die during childbirth can tap into those collective memories and get a sense of what it means and how it feels to be separate, what time and space look and feel like, and access the memories in the Akashic record of what it felt like to be limited by a physical body and what it felt like and what it means to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.

When I examine both theories mine seems to make a whole lot more sense to me. Life is one big long lesson in separation. Separation in every way, shape, and form possible. From the moment we are born and separate from our mothers till the day we die and our death becomes a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind.

Very few people are truly successful in overcoming the inherent separation that this world forces on us. There are very few saints. Very few Mother Theresas. Very few Ghandis or Jesuses. So if it were God's intention that we should learn in this life what it really means to learn agape love - then the Creator wasn't that successful and I give Him a C- at best.

A teacher where only 5% or less pass the course is a very poor teacher and should probably look for another profession.

sbu, I'm linking the two together. I'm smart enough to see the connection between the two. It is irrelevant to me whether Hogan can see it or not. I can see it. The connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory is obvious to me and by the way Hogan's research explains why the other side will seem even more real to us than this side does.

I'm not sure you reasoning is sound scientific methodology but it makes me smile :) The interesting thing is that you actually reduce consciousness to a physical phenomena in your claims. I think most people in here are dualist beliefing the opposite, that consciousness is immaterial.

Art, I am hoping you can explain what appears to me at least to be a contradiction in the logic of your theory.

On the one hand, you say that the disembodied person can focus its attention and merge with any particular aspect of the hologram that it chooses and be there (I think you used an example of some pre-historic period of time on earth, but too lazy to back and check ;-)

On the other hand, you are saying that upon death one re-merges with the totality of all things that is the hologram.

So which is it? Is a soul returned to the oneness of all things (which does sound an awful lot like obliteration of the personality) or does one have the option of focusing one's attention on some obscure piece of the hologram and residing there; potentially alone?

And, if the latter is possible, in your opinion as you earlier stated, this points to a possible fissure in your explanation of the meaning of life because apparently separation could be continued in the afterlife to the same extent it is experienced here and now.

But, if the latter is not possible, then all of the mediums must be wrong and the oblivion that you seek to avoid must be real because that is all that could result from a total merging with the source and a total elimination of "separation".

Am I missing something in your perspective?

The comments to this entry are closed.