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The latest Skeptiko is an interview with Susan Blackmore about NDEs.

http://www.skeptiko.com/near-death-experience-skeptic-dr-susan-blackmore-responds-to-critics/


Was not aware of the increased carbon dioxide / increased N.D.E. thing....

Still this does not account for the some of the stronger pieces of evidence regarding N.D.E. such as;

They are similar for all people, and the available amount of evidence suggests they are similar between different cultures.

People have seen what is going on around than even without E.E.G. readings. (Hopefully Project Aware makes this evidence even stronger)

Sometimes the blind see while having a N.D.E. or after getting special Psychic training.

That consciousness and sometimes memroy, despite all our modern technology remains elusive.

But there is obviously a relationship with the N.D.E. and increased carbon monoxide if this article is correct. Anyone have any clue what it might be.

wait a sec. The article says "heart Attacks." Those who have N.D.E. while having a "heart attack" and who have increases of Carbon Monoxide.....

These type of N.D.E. may in fact be a hallucination but they do not account for those which happen when the is an absence of heart rate and E.E.G. waves....

The latest Skeptiko is an interview with Susan Blackmore about NDEs

Think I'll give it a miss!

I've lost the link a while ago, but I think the researchers that did that carbon monoxide study said that their conclusions at this point still doesn't rule out a supernatural explanation. It was either that study or another one that proposed some sort of physiological explanation for NDEs.

That is interesting to know afterburner....

I could not find the actual article for that particular study through the given link.

I think I will look into this a bit more but I even if people have more N.D.E. when carbon monoxide in the blood is high, it may only mean they are truly "more dead" some how. Usually the hallucinations affiliated with traumatic experiences are far from pleasant. 99.9% of the time N.D.E. experiences are very pleasant.

Actually, Chris Carter's new book "science and near death" has a great explanation regarding carbon dioxide and n.d.e.

He points out that many n.d.er's do not have high CO2. also that when people are exposed to high CO2 the results are not always pleasant.

SEED Magazine recently had an opinion article that essentially criticizes the existence of a soul or dualism:

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/from_divided_minds_a_specious_soul/

"SEED Magazine recently had an opinion article that essentially criticizes the existence of a soul or dualism:" - Aftrbrnr
------------------------------------------

LOL! So does that mean I need to go over there and enlighten them about the holographic nature of our universe and the connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory? {grin!}

Nothing really new in the article Aftrbrnr. Same old mistaking correlation (that the undamaged hemisphere cleverly compensates for a damaged one following a stroke) for causation (because materialism is correct).
Tha amazing thing is that she made a complete recovery despite the massive damage to her right hemisphere. The implications of this were quietly ignored!

LOL! So does that mean I need to go over there and enlighten them about the holographic nature of our universe and the connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory? {grin!}
They probably won't mind a good laugh...

Tha amazing thing is that she made a complete recovery despite the massive damage to her right hemisphere. The implications of this were quietly ignored!

It indicates that the event is fictional. People die when they have a massive brain stroke.

Sbu,
There is no doubt that the brain constrains the soul and restricts it in everyday life, that restriction gets greater when strokes, brain damage etc happens. It evidence fits perfectly in the transmission/filter theory.

"People die when they have a massive brain stroke."

Jill Bolte Taylor survived a massive strike and wrote a book about it ("My Stroke of Insight"). In her case, the hemorrhage was in the left hemisphere.

Hey MP, on the subject of life and death, here's death by philosophy; the 1900 page PDF written by the guy who then killed himself.

http://www.suicidenote.info/

I was reading some of it. It's sad.

"I was reading some of it. It's sad."

The little bit I read was very strange, and seemed to have something to do with sociobiology. The author appeared to be very concerned with how the more primitive parts of the brain might override his own decision-making. If I understood him correctly (based on a very brief perusal), he decided to commit suicide, in part, so as to demonstrate that a decision can be taken and acted upon even if the primitive parts of the brain militate against it. That is, he wanted to prove he could nullify the instinct of self-preservation through an act of will.

Perhaps I've misunderstood him, though, because it hardly seems necessary to demonstrate this point when thousands of people already commit suicide every year.

From the Seed article

"The soul is an ancient hypothesis, older than caloric and just as specious, left unsupported by the collected works of neurology and neuroscience. This leaves a distinct absence of soul, by whatever name. Importantly, this absence does not arise because of cultural biases and inertias, or because of overarching dogmas and hidden agendas and wishful thinking. It leaves an absence because the available data supports it and tends to falsify everything else."

What about the available data that psi effects are real, and that somehow the mind can transcend the body?

The response would be "Oh, well that's invalid, because (citation of some extremely shoddy debunking attempt by a professional skeptic group)"

The materialists build a tower of rotten wood, and place absolute faith on the quality of the wood.

"I was reading some of it. It's sad."

If there's no such thing as an afterlife, I'm afraid he's dead-on (no pun intended) about everything he writes about in the Punchline section (the only part I read). To me he sounds like the ultimate skeptic - materialist. I just hope he's wrong, and that he's happy now in another realm.

Well that has always been a problem for materialism. Ultimately, it's nihilistic. It can give us no direction whatsoever on how we should live our lives other than because this person or that says so, vs. because there is really some ultimate point to our existence that isn't a matter of any given person's taste and opinion. There is no scientific reason why people ought to want to treat each other nicely or even to live. Sure, an atheist can choose to live as a good person, but he does so in ignorance of the ultimate nihilism behind materialism. If there is no God then there simply is no good and evil apart from what you say it is, and then life becomes a war between competing and arbitrary notions of what constitutes the good. Might makes right. Whoever wins gets to decide. And it doesn't really matter how many people on the opposing side you have to kill to institute your point of view — exactly what communist regimes did throughout the 20th century; sure it will be messy, but where there is no ultimate good or evil, it ultimately does not matter who lives and who dies. Blood dries. Bones turn to dust. The memory of it is lost. Justice is just a scream of some vanquished minority before you make them extinct, and then all is peace and light again.

Sure religions produce evil people. But they also produce saints. Where are all the materialist saints? All I see from them is arrogance, venality, the provincial objective, the self righteousness of one who thinks he is god. All the same evil religion is capable of but without any belief in a right and wrong beyond themselves to mitigate their potential brutality.

dmduncan, I'm going to copy and paste your post above into a separate file so I can save and re-read it from time to time. In fact, I think I'm going to share it with our preacher Darryl, who I am friends with. Thank you! It is brilliant.

"They probably won't mind a good laugh." - Posted by: sbu
---------------------------

If thou thinkest me a fool then I am in good company with Dr. Kenneth Ring, Dr. Melvin Morse, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Oswald Harding, Dr. Pim Van Lommel, and many others. They have all written about the connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory. Dr. Ken Ring required his students to read Michael Talbot's book The Holographic Universe in the course he taught on near death experiences at the University of Connecticut.

I agree with you, dmduncan. IF there's no transcendent dimension to reality then there's no possibility of moral absolutes. I think you can still live a good life and be moral as an atheist (and I know plenty who do), but that doesn't change the conclusion that life is meaningless. Not to mention, how can we assign responsibility if everyone is a meat robot whose actions are predetermined.

dmduncan - Hear hear! You have put very eloquently something that I think a lot of materialists either don't realize, try to ignore, or pretend they're ok with. I of course agree that materialists can be moral people, but what they can't do is claim that their personal morality has any significance besides that which it carries in their own minds.

I remember there was some sort of atheist bus campaign where the ad went something along the lines saying we should just be good "just because".

One problem I have with materialism is you realize how futile life is with it. Upon death, pretty much everything is erased from you. I mean, why bother going to Paris if you're going to lose all memories of it - you're never even going to know you went there, let alone know you even existed at all (which I think is a bit of a paradox considering if we aren't even supposed to know we existed because of a lack of consciousness upon death, why are we aware of this moment and recalling memories?)

Raymond Moody will be interviewed on Signs of Life Radio on Sept 30, 2010 at 8 PM EST. Julie Beischal will be interviewed on Oct 14.

http://www.foreverfamilyfoundation.org/radio2010.htm

Thank you Art and Jane.

LOL! I've got your post in a separate word file on my computer now labeled "Materialism" so I can refer back to it when needed. I sent it to our preacher right after I read it. I didn't plagerize it and pretend I wrote it. He'd know I was lying! {grin!} I'm not that good of a writer!

Michael--

Sorry this isn't relevant to the thread it's posted to...I tried to contact you with the email address I had from a few years back. Couldn't find another option, so guess I'll have to try it in a more public way, LOL. Just to let you know, my dissertation "Is Physicalism 'Really' True?" is now completed and posted to the web at the Texas Digital Library repository. Thought you might find it interesting, given our common areas of interest. Easiest way to get to it is through my website at http://www.rviewer.com and click through in the "Headlines" section.

Thanks, Paul. BTW, my email address can be found at my author website, michaelprescott.net .

Congratulations on completing your dissertation!

This is such a fabulously intriguing idea, these books that will never be written. And now I so want to read them all, mostly due to your skill with evocative covers. I look at them and feel the story within. Or the story that could be within. I'm not sure if I should thank you or curse you...

SPAM ALTER Michael... link above goes to one of those wonderful enhancement sites.

Viagra Online becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. in an attempt to PULL THE PLUG mankind makes it worse for themselves.... now endowed with hideously large members we can nothing but wait for the end to come..

Sbu,
There is no doubt that the brain constrains the soul and restricts it in everyday life, that restriction gets greater when strokes, brain damage etc happens. It evidence fits perfectly in the transmission/filter theory.

A modern treatment of e.g. Parkinsons disease is DBS (Deep brain stimulation). An unfortunate sideeffect of this treatment is that the patient sometimes changes personality. A change that disappears immediately when the treatment is turned off (turning of the electrical current to the brain).

I can't see how this can fit with a radio transmitter theory. Remember Occam's razor "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".

If you can manipulate a humans thoughts by changing the signals between the neurons in the brain there is no need for any external substance to explain consciousness.

By personality change I assume you mean a change in behaviour? Why would a temporary interruption or change to the material of the brain not result in a change in observed behaviour under the Transmission Theories? I don't see how this negates the transmission theories. There is I think a consideration missing from your application of Occam's Razor and that is this:

For a theory to be considered tenable, my understanding is that it must support all the facts - the fact that a particular theory is simpler does not on its own make it correct or even viable. In this case it is necessary to account for a wide variety of phenomena including veridical NDEs and afterlife communication - as far as I can see production theories, at least at the moment, do not. So unless we dismiss all such evidence, I think the discussion is still very much live. Chris Carter discusses this issue in some detail, and IMHO very well, in his new book.

Right, Paul. No one would doubt materialism if there were no empirical data to contradict it.

But the whole point of this blog, and of books like Chris Carter's and "Irreducible Mind," is that there's a wealth of evidence to contest the contention that the mind is purely an outgrowth of physical processes.

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr
--------------------------------------------

There is a wealth of data from Physicist that says there is no "material" anything. What we view as "material" are just the electro-magnetic bonds between atoms. It is an illusion. Atoms are 99.9999999% empty space and the sub atomic particles themselves are hardly like anything we associate as being matter being more like eddys in a river than a rock or a BB.

The only reason my hand doesn't float right down through the table they are resting on is because the negative charges of the electrons in my hand are repelling the negative charges of the electrons in the table. Sub atomic particles do all kinds of strange things that "normal matter" doesn't do, like appear and disappear, communicate instantaneously with each other, pass right through "solid matter", make quantum jumps, and sometimes even seeming to communicate with the people who are studying them.

I really can't understand why people are so hung up on materialism when we know that there is very little that is material in matter.

you're a terrible Troll sbu....

There is evidence from some Mental Mediumship where a Medium has confirmed things such as what was placed in the deceased person's coffin or another one I read where the Medium knew the color of a banner placed on a person's coffin and relayed other Information she can't of possibly known to the Family of the deceased person.

In my Eyes just a few cases like these are very strong Evidence that there is Disembodied Conciousness very aware of whats going on at a Funeral.

Your Materialist assumptions don't hold a lot of water.

Why would a temporary interruption or change to the material of the brain not result in a change in observed behaviour under the Transmission Theories? I don't see how this negates the transmission theories.

The DBS research clearly indicates that the personality is a product of the electrical transmission in the brain - even if consciousness can't be directly reduced to basic physics.

There's no solid proof (based on solid scientific methods) that NDE's are anything but a new kind of hallucinations. We have the AWARE study to invetigate this using a high scientific standard and we will see what the outcome will be. If it's negative I don't think NDE's can count as empirical evidence for dualism.

The change in behaviour seems to me equally supported by the transmission model. That is, interfere with the transmission mechanism and see different behaviour.

There we go again: "...anything but..." Similar to the usual skeptic mantra: [such and such phenomenon] is "nothing but". sigh...

lol good one Sbu, and where is the "Solid Proof" that NDE's are just hallucinations? thats right there isn't any solid proof...

The point is: saying that these are only "hallucinations" is in fact acknowledging that one does not know.

The change in behaviour seems to me equally supported by the transmission model. That is, interfere with the transmission mechanism and see different behaviour.

Right, then let me ask you this question.

I read about a patient suffering from a parkinson like disease. He was cured by DBS treatment - however as a sideeffect he got obsessed by gambling. Something he never was before (when the doctors disabled the treatment - he suddenly couldn't understand his gambling obsession).

When he eventually dies and goes to haven (or the holograhic universe afterlife) and tells about his self, will he then say:

1) I'm quite a gambler - that's a key trait in my personality.

2) I'm not a gambler. I hate that kind of play.

When you say "cured" what do you mean? For example if the person recovers, I presume the material structure of the Brain (ie the transmission mechanism) may be damaged even though the person's faculties appear to be normal or more-or-less back to normal. For example, a person may recover from cancer but that often leaves the body with permanent damage even though the cancer is 'cured'.We have already discussed how changing the physical Brain may cause changes in behaviour according to the Transmission Theories haven't we?

In the example you cite, the person's behaviour changed again when the treatment stopped (as an aside this doesn't sound like a cure to me, more like symptom management, or suppression of the disease). It seems to me we are still talking about the person's behaviour being changed by modifying the transmission vehicle, the Brain, then changing again when the intervention stops. This seems to me to be equally consistent with the Transmission Theories.

Perhaps the person you cite has an underlying tendency to gamble but was unaware of it or had managed to suppress it during their life and residual damage to the Brain as a result of the disease meant that they were no longer able to control it, or they chose to gamble, or the treatment to control the underlying disease modified the function of the Brain. In any event we would be talking about a potential impairment in some way affecting the way the person's personality manifested in the material world.We have already discussed this and it seems equally well-explained by the Transmission Theory.

It is also fair to say, I think, that in some transmission models, the connection between the brain and mind is not simply one-way. That is to say the mind can be affected, at least temporarily, in some ways by changes in the Brain, just as the mind is known to have physical effects on the body.

As far as your dilemma is concerned I presume you are suggesting a distinction between a natural tendency or desire to engage in particular activities, or a predisposition to them because of some physical irregularity or change in the Brain.Presumably, assuming there is an afterlife, the person would know how much was their true personality and how much was out of their control due to changes or irregularities in their Brain.

Maybe when he gets to the afterlife he'll say, "In my most recent life, as part of my continuing personal evolution, I had to deal with a gambling problem. It was clever how you guys (my spiritual mentors) worked it out so that a gambling adduction was a side effect of my brain surgery. I never would've thought of that. Great work, guys!"

:-)

As far as the mind-brain relationship goes, I suspect that (as Paul says) it's a two-way street. I also suspect that in the postmortem environment, some of the problems introduced by the influence of the body are ironed out through spiritual healing. The idea that newly discarnate souls must undergo a period of R & R is very common in channeled communications.

"When he eventually dies and goes to haven (or the holograhic universe afterlife) and tells about his self, will he then say:
1) I'm quite a gambler - that's a key trait in my personality. 2) I'm not a gambler. I hate that kind of play." - SBU

--------------------------------------------

When he goes to heaven he'll be able to gamble all he wants to and win every time because heaven is a place where individual thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality.

You really need to read Mark Horton's Near Death Experience. Notice how it is congruent with and corroborates the holographic universe theory.

Mark Horton's NDE:
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

John 10:34 NIV
"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?"

"As a man thinketh so is he." - Proverbs

Capisce?


"Sometimes the blind see while having a N.D.E. or after getting special Psychic training".

Do you know whether these blind people have been blind from birth or whether they've gone blind during their lifetime? If they've ever had sight even if impaired slightly or for a short period (say as a baby), they would have memory and capable of dreaming like you and I.

The book "Mindsight" by Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper covers several cases of apparently paranormal vision in blind people, including some who were blind from birth.

Ok well thats great news, as long as the mothers memories/impressions aren't passed on somehow during development.

I'm sure the brain of a baby is renowned to be not capable of memory according to current science but that fact remains current science maybe incomplete.

Anyhow I believe in an afterlife but have always been doubtful about NDE, despite having one myself. I guess until four years from now I will know once and for all whther it was a genuine spirit contact if the NDE message comes to fruition.

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