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Reminds me of a book that Colin Wilson discusses in several places, Max Freedom Long's The Secret Science Behind Miracles, which was a study of the Huna religion. In brief, human's have three souls (or minds or spirits). The low self is selfish and ignorant and can become a low spirit like a poltergeist. The higher self is the source of paranormal knowledge and guidance. The middle self is the what we typically think of as our "self".

Wilson spins this model into a reasonably plausible explanation for haunting, poltergeists, medium communications, etc. I don't necessarily by it, but the way he uses the model meets the objections you have raised in your post.

You can find Long's book here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nth/ssbm/ssbm00.htm

Wilson discusses it in several places, with his book Poltergeists coming to mind. (It's one of his best book, along with beyond the Occult, which have a more nuanced view of the paranormal than his earlier work.) Might be worth looking into for something that follows a similar line, but is more interesting

And thanks for posting that link about the chess match. I was unaware of it. It is really an incredible case - an easier to understand version of the cross correspondence case, with its dizzying array of classical references, as well as a more objective version of the "artistic ability" cases like Patience Worth, Rosemary Brown or similar cases that involve subjective judgments of merit. You can either play chess at a Master level or you can’t. It would be clear to a Grandmaster within a few moves if you cannot play.

I just finished rereading a book on Australian Aboriginals in my library, Primitive Psychic Power: The realities underlying the psychical practices and beliefs of Australian aborigines (originally Living Magic, 1956), by Ronald Rose. It contains this quote on multi-souls:


“But the situation is confused somewhat by the concept of each native having a number of spirits. There is, for example, what might be termed the primary spirit or soul which existed before the birth of the native and at his death returns to the Dream Time, to totemic spirit groups, or to the god Baieme. There is also at least one secondary spirit … which is like a ghost. This survives usually for about three days, longer in the case of violent deaths, but then just disappears.

As for me, I may just move on to another book.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, maybe...

I have just bought Stieg Larsson's trilogy, Michael, as they were highly recommended.

Even though they were published posthumously and translated from Swedish, his trilogy has sold more than 20 million copies in 41 countries (spring of 2010).

Another great piece, Michael.

You write: "It might be argued that some of them appeared to have diminished capacities -- to be confused or inarticulate -- but others seemed to have full possession of all their faculties."

I believe that the appearance of any "diminished capacities" is most likely a result of the limitations of the spirit's ability to communicate from where they "are" to our own material Universe frequently, which is not always easy, not due to any "diminished capacities" of consciousness or any other consequences as a result of crossing over.

From all the evidence that I've read, consciousness and awareness is heightened on the other side, not diminished in the slightest.

It's books like this that cause the use of the descriptive phrase "New Age" to be a pejorative, at least in many circles.


This sort of reminds me of what Jane Roberts' Seth spoke of, but Seth took it a lot further, with our consciousness able to fragment (he often spoke of having a fragment of his consciousness living as a dog). But Novak's idea doesn't strike me right for some reason. Perhaps our consciousness can fragment, but not in the way he is describing.

From what you write, Novak is painting a rather hellish picture of the afterlife, in which the unconscious mind goes into its own miserable limbo, and the conscious mind completely loses the heritage of its past.

Unpleasant... but could it be true? All I can say is that nothing I've ever read about spirit communication and NDEs verifies it at all.

I have some philosophical arguments against it, too. If the conscious mind truly loses *all* connection to unconscious minds with which it has been associated, then how do we even know that they were connected at all? What would the difference be between the conscious mind as posited and a completely new spirit that never had such connections in the first place?

I would say that there *is* no difference, and the only way one could know that they were connected is if an authority (God, a spirit in the know) simply said that it was so.

The consistent picture I get from my readings is that a person becomes more unified after death, not less.

not a very holistic approach!I really recommed a NDE at www.the dailygrail.com posted yesterday. Its only one experience but tom my mind provides a fantastic overview and if you were only ever going to read when DE or NDE that would be a good choice. Inspiring!

Alexis, I went to http://dailygrail.com/ and looked for a near death experience posted by "tom my mind" but couldn't find it? Would it be possible for you to go back to that website and find the NDE you are talking about and post the whole link to the exact NDE you are talking about? I'm a big near death experience fan and really enjoy reading people's accounts of their experiences. I would really like to read it and I couldn't find it. Thanks.

http://www.dailygrail.com/Spirit-World/2009/5/Near-Death-Experience-Dr-Bruce-Greyson

I read NDEs whenever I get nihilistic or cynical. I spent years looking for serenity through extensive meditation retreats and therapy- now I just read a freakin' NDE story or two and feel my heart glow in recognition.

"looked for a near death experience posted by 'tom my mind' but couldn't find it"

Heh. I think "tom my mind" was a typo for "to my mind."

No wonder communicating over the Internet is so hard!

"From what you write, Novak is painting a rather hellish picture of the afterlife"

Yes, he does describe it as an unpleasant fate. That's why Jesus had to rescue us from it ... or something.

"Reminds me of a book that Colin Wilson discusses in several places, Max Freedom Long's The Secret Science Behind Miracles"

I read some of that book a year or two ago. It was interesting. I should probably go back and finish it ...

Colin Wilson provided an introduction to Novak's book, BTW. He had high praise for it.

"psyche vs. psuche"
Michael,
After Novak's book, I too craved some light reading and indeed, took a break from spiritual/metaphysical blogs. I agree he paints a dark destiny.
Not being a dog who can let go of a bone I continued to think about it, in spite of myself.
My wife, a student of New Testament Greek, always challenged me on my loose mixing of the terms soul and spirit, and explained to me their origins. Through this, I found a possible explanation for the dichotomy I recognize in my "self".
Though you've expressed your skepticism of Newton's work, I still find it somehow rings true for me as I've expressed before. One thing that comes through in Newton's work is that we would be alive as humans without spirit, but not as interesting. In his chapter that deals with pets, it seems they have a life force, but not a spirit.
Could we, as human animals, have both an animal life force, as well as a spiritual component? Could the jump between primitive man and "civilized man" be due to the entrance of spirit into our world?
Though I have a great interest in military history and weapons, I abhor violence ?!. I have come to call "Self 1" the "meat machine".
Latest insight (subject to change without notice!), is we are a blending of a conscious biological entity ruled by natural law, instincts and hormones, with a spirit that is privy to a higher world and a higher consciousness. What of Nature vs. Nurture, and Creation vs. Evolution? Might it be a bit of both?

"Though you've expressed your skepticism of Newton's work ..."

I do find it interesting, despite my skepticism. I just received "Destiny of Souls" from Amazon today.

"One thing that comes through in Newton's work is that we would be alive as humans without spirit, but not as interesting."

That does seem to be his view. It seems to imply that the human body has a mind of its own. If so, I have to wonder what happens to that mind after death. And which part of the soul-mind combo is "me"?

"In his chapter that deals with pets, it seems they have a life force, but not a spirit."

And yet many mediums and a few NDErs have reported seeing pets in the afterlife ...

"we are a blending of a conscious biological entity ruled by natural law, instincts and hormones, with a spirit that is privy to a higher world and a higher consciousness."

It's certainly a possibility. But then I would assume that the "animal" part of us is extinguished at death, and whatever is left must be rather different from the familiar earthly "I." And maybe that is exactly what happens.

"And yet many mediums and a few NDErs have reported seeing pets in the afterlife."
---------------------------

Remember the holodeck in Star Trek: The Next Generation? All the characters on the holodeck were generated by the computer. They saw themselves as being separate but in reality their existence was controlled by the computer.

Here are two interesting excerpts:

from Michelle M's NDE:
"I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body."
http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

From the Holographic Universe:
"Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

from "The holographic universe: When it pays to be first"

"If this doesn’t blow your socks off, then Hogan, who has just been appointed director of Fermilab’s Center for Particle Astrophysics, has an even bigger shock in store: ‘If the GEO600 result is what I suspect it is, then we are all living in a giant cosmic hologram.’"

http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/

We are simply living in a holographic projection which simply means that everything that is "here" has to be "there." Only because of the blurriness inherent in a holographic projection - the other side will seem even more crisp and clear, or "more real" to us than this side does.

And this means that our beloved pets will meet us on the other sides and we will be even more connected to them there than we are here. Love is the key. Whatever we love, whatever we focus our attention on, that is what we will experience.

Art
the website address is www.mellen-thomas.com
Michael yor sarcasm is a bit purile!

I may just move on to another book.

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, maybe...

Update:

Rooney Mara has been cast as Lisbeth Salander in 'The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo'

The 'Social Network' actress will star alongside Daniel Craig in the English language remake of the Swedish novel.

The 24-year-old beauty beat a number of high profile actresses including Kristen Stewart and Carey Mulligan to the role in the David Fincher-directed piece.

It will be the first of a trilogy of films and she will reprise the role in 'The Girl Who Played With Fire' and 'The Girl Who Kicked The Hornet's Nest'.

The film - adapted for the screen by Steve Zaillian and produced by Scott Rudin, Cean Chaffin, Ole Sondberg and Soren Staermose - is due to begin shooting in September following a cinematic release in December 2011.

The original novel, written by Stieg Larsson, has sold in 40 million copies in 44 countries, and all three in the series have topped the New York Times Best Seller lists.


"Michael yor sarcasm is a bit puerile!"

What sarcasm?

Michael's sarcasm was a glandular surge from his animal body. Just kind of snuck it in there when his spirit wasn't looking.

C'mon Michael. 'Fess up. You're dripping with unknown, unacknowledged, undetectable, invisible and completely nonexistent sarcasm.

You animal.

Now that's sarcasm!

C'mon Michael. 'Fess up. You're dripping with unknown, unacknowledged, undetectable, invisible and completely nonexistent sarcasm.

Wow, Tharpa. You make Michael's unacknowledged animal sarcasm seem rather sexy. All guys should be dripping with this stuff.

No, I'm not being sarcastic! I'm sure if you could look into my big blue eyes you would know just how sincere I am. (Is there a smiley that denotes sarcasm, BTW?)

=)

Hey! It turns out there is a "sarcastic smiley".

http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~helwig/smileys.html

So now Michael can be very clear about intended sarcasm (as opposed to invisible, nonexistent sexy animal sarcasm). He just needs to use the right smiley!

:->

So sorry Michael I was wrong it was Art who did the search on 'tom my mind' my typo and you just correctly stated it was a typo .Please accept my apologies fro my complete misreading !duh.

Yeah Does not Stack Up to the empirical Evidence regarding the afterlife.

In Daoism (as I am learning because I am training in Acupuncture) There is the Animal Soul and Corporal Soul. I have not come across any good discriptions of each and how they seperate after death. The animal soul may be a part of the collective earth mind perhaps while the corporal soul goes on after death.

"Please accept my apologies for my complete misreading"

No problem.

"He just needs to use the right smiley! :-> "

Somehow that doesn't look like a sarcastic face to me. I guess it's supposed to look like someone is pursing his lips.

I think one raised eyebrow would be better, but I have no idea if this is possible in smileyland.

"I am training in Acupuncture"

I've had acupuncture.

They say it's painless. :-)

They lie. :-(

It did seem to work, though.

All of the points you raise Michael are the very problems I've had with the "division of soul and spirit" theory, that I first read about years ago. It didn't make sense to me then either.

It just doesn't match the data.

As you pointed out, they claim that the part of us that moves on to the afterlife is sealed off in it's own heavenly or hellish dream world, with no knowledge of here beyond their physical death, and that mediums just connect to them to extract information for their loved ones, and then they go back to being brainless sealed off ghosts once the mediumship connection is severed.

But, of course, real spirits in mediumship very often talk about many things in regards to their loved ones that has happened AFTER their own physical death. And they even make remarks about "still watching over them", etc. Some talk about things that happened at their funerals, and events in their loved one's lives in the months and years and decades afterwards. And give specific examples to prove this, showing that they are still aware and are not "sealed off".

And as you also pointed out, past life memories and inbetween lives memories are what conflicts with the other half of the coin, the "clean slate spirit" reincarnating.

And with that, we should dismiss this theory as nothing more than noise, not signal. There's an awful lot of noise out there, that doesn't get us to the bottom of anything.

If, after death, our consciousness is greatly expanded and unrestricted, and we can be in multiple places at once, etc, then, possibly, we can reincarnate part of our consciousness back here physically (putting it back in this limited consciousness box), while still having another part of our unrestricted consciousness (still connected to the other here) other there.

The consciousness on this side would be as limited and restricted as we all are here, but would still be a part of and connected to the unrestricted one still over there from a previous incarnation.

Which would explain mediums still being able to connect to long dead persons, and people tapping into past life memories and other weirdness. Without invoking total division of soul / spirit.

That sounds more plausible than the mindless dream zombie soul and the separate clean slate spirit.

Just a possibility.

Also, the existence of earth bound ghosts who notice other people's presences, interfere, interact, and can even eventually "move on", etc, throws a big wrench in that "brainless sealed off dream ghost" theory.

"I think one raised eyebrow would be better, but I have no idea if this is possible in smileyland."

It is! `:-)

Cool.

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