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Comforting story, Michael. We put our cat down today and are hoping she had her own "DE".

"Of course, a case like this can never be airtight, ..."

Just to play devil's advocate, there is one possible hole in the story. Could a different nurse have informed the patient that his dentures had been removed and also described the appearance of the nurse who removed them? It's not out of the question.

But of course it would be unlikely for the patient to have invented an NDE to account for seeing the nurse who did the removal, instead of being straightforward. And an invented NDE wouldn't account for the other accurate descriptions he made of the room, which the first nurse wouldn't have told him about.

Still, just to cut off this escape hatch, it would be nice if the other nurse(s) involved could be located and interrogated, to verify that nothing of the sort happened.

Since this case happened 20 years ago, even if you could find the other nurse, I doubt that much weight could be given to their testimony. Even statements taken a relatively short time after an event is observed are susceptible to errors in recall.

This is perhaps especially so in this case as the event in question may have held no particular significance for the nurse.

@ Paul:

"the event in question may have held no particular significance"

It wasn't an everyday event. The nurse who was interviewed stated that the team attempted resuscitation for an hour without success, and continued only because a junior doctor was in charge who had not seen many resuscitation attempts before and was afraid to take responsibility for ending one. When the patient showed signs of life, the nurses were amazed. So it was a somewhat memorable event.

On top of that, if one of the other nurses had given the patient a description of the nurse who removed his dentures, he might have recalled that as well. He could give three answers:
I told him.
I didn't tell him.
I don't remember the case.

If he could be located and he fails to say that he told the patient (i.e., if he gives answers 2 or 3), that will strengthen the credibility of this NDE, even though certainty wouldn't be obtained.

Hi Roger

The event does sound out of the ordinary as you mention. I wonder how many resuscitations this nurse conducted in the intervening decades?

Also, the nurse may "think" they recall it but I wonder how much significance one can attach to a statement about the circumstances surrounding a routine event (albeit with non-routine elements) that happened 20 years ago?

The trouble, for me, with events like this is that they are all dependent on the testimony of strangers and not much was recorded at the time (if anything). I view them as interesting anecdotes, and definitely testimony or a kind of evidence I suppose, but not terribly valuable because of the age of the event and the susceptibility of human memory - especially because no statement was taken at the time and no-one looked for alternative explanations when the evidence was still fresh.

Anyway that's my two pennorth.

People have had a rope put around their neck and stretched till dead on a whole lot less evidence.

In the end each person will have to read it for themselves and make up their minds. It is irrelevant to me what somebody else believes or thinks.

I'm not sure it matters much when we cross over what we believed. Everyone will be healed when they enter that Light.

"We put our cat down today and are hoping she had her own 'DE'."

I'm sorry to hear about your pet. It's very difficult to say goodbye to our faithful little friends.

"not much was recorded at the time (if anything)."

In this case, the original interview with the nurse seems to have been recorded pretty soon after the event. Still, the evidence does come down to eyewitness testimony, which can always be disputed.

Hi Art

I would be interested to hear of an account where someone was executed on less or even the same degree of evidence (unless you are referring to the Wild West or medieval England :)).

Although what others believe and think may be irrelevant to you I don't have the same view. I am not sure you meant to say 'irrelevant'. I am certainly interested in why people believe what they do and usually in what they think unless they are clearly unreasonable.

I suspect you are right that what we believe will not alter reality when we pop off. Though perhaps it might make it more difficult to adapt (assuming there is anything to adapt or anything to adapt to).

@MP - thanks for the comment re the timing of the interview. I am not saying it isn't interesting, because it is. I intended to reply to Roger's comment about the second nurse.

"I would be interested to hear of an account where someone was executed on less or even the same degree of evidence (unless you are referring to the Wild West or medieval England :))." - Paul
--------------------------------------------

Our jails are full of people who have been convicted on the testimony of one or two witnesses. It all depends on how sincere someone sounds and who the jury believes.

"Although what others believe and think may be irrelevant to you I don't have the same view. I am not sure you meant to say 'irrelevant'." - Paul
--------------------------------------------

There is a ton of evidence out there if someone chooses to spend the time to look for it. Someone else may not have spent as much time researching the question as I have and may not know what I know. I keep harping on the connection between NDE's and the holographic universe and quantum physics and it's like only a few people can really understand what I'm talking about. Dr. Ken Ring, Dr. Melvin Morse, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Michael Talbot, Dr. Oswald Harding have all written about it and it's obvious to me that it has profound implications.

How is it that a housewife from Kansas or a truck driver from South Georgia might come back after their NDE experience and describe it in terms that can only be called "holographic?"

Most recently there was an article in the January 2010 online issue of New Scientist about the blurriness in a holographic projection. I find this interesting because people who have NDEs say that while they were out of their bodies and on the other side that they had more consciousness than normal and it was "clearer than what we normally experience."

This makes sense to me because the blurriness that exists in the holographic projection wouldn't exist in the original holographic film. That is just one example of the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe. There are many others.

I guess what you are saying Art is that plenty of people have been convicted on weaker evidence. This is true, however as the justice systems in much (if not all) of the world are susceptible to error and/or corruption and are widely mistrusted, I don't think this is a good example unless one is trying to show that even honest juries and judges can be thwarted by believing testimony which appears to be true but turns out to be incorrect or incomplete. Anyway I suppose this particular point is going-off topic.

I think plenty of people can understand what you are talking about, it isn't that complicated. It's just that some of us reserve judgement. I don't know whether you are right or not but simply repeating the points isn't going to persuade me for one. Not because the points you are making aren't correct, they may well be for all I know, but because, as has been mentioned here many times, proof probably has to occur on a personal basis through some kind of direct experience. At least for some (amongst whom I number myself) no amount of testimony by a third party is enough for many of us to make the mental and emotional commitment to accepting survival (holographic or otherwise) and that's all there is to it. I need to see it for myself.

Take the example of quantum physics as you suggest. I may read the sources that you cite as evidence backing up your belief. Then I read a counter view. Result: I am unable to form a firm opinion because the evidence appears to be inconclusive.

If my great-grandmother appears in my room in broad daylight and tells me something that I could not have known but which turns out to be 100% correct I will be convinced. I wouldn't expect you to be convinced based on my testimony though you might think it interesting and food for thought, depending on how well you knew me.

Thanks Paul for your very intereting insights - Z.


A middle aged man called Paul
Said 'No' when his angel did call
Please go away
I want to stay
I'm living and having a ball

I don't want to meet the Grim Reaper
But he seems to think he's my keeper
Now's not my time
I'm busy with rhyme
He'll just have to dig that grave deeper

I'm not resistant to facts,
but simply reciting the acts,
doesn't give them more weight,
so I'll still hesitate,
before nailing my views to the mast.

MP: Thank you for your sympathy. It has been as hard as you say. You may remember, I lost my college roommate at the beginning if the year. I can't compete with all the debaters here, but I can take comfort from some of what is said.

When I'm walking down the street
Suddenly to leave my feet
thunder-struck across the street-
It's nice to know I'll be o.k.
Looking down, of course I'll say
I saw this coming all the way-
Going home for All I pray.

So go ahead punk, and make my day.

J9 - you don't need to compete. I view this forum as an opportunity to learn - some of us don't know as much as we think :)

I think is is possible for non-pet owners to underestimate the loss. I lost one of my cats (which I had since 1992) last year. It was dreadful but the emotion often eases over time.

I think Smit has done an excellent job and I can't see any decent 'what if's' that make sense.

I believe what it shows is that Gerald Woerlee is not only wrong but has also been trying to twist the facts to support his assumptions, simply because he doesn't want survival.

Remember, Woerlee wasn't there and did not interview the male nurse concerned.

Speaking of cat deaths, check out The Cat Who'll Live Forever: The Final Adventures of Norton, the Perfect Cat, and His Imperfect Human by Peter Gethers. (And look at his two earlier Norton books, especially the first, The Cat Who Went to Paris.)

By the way, Michael,

Thanks for the mention(...when Trev brought it up...)
Fame at last !

Thanks Paul, it's great that you had so much time together. You are right though, I've grieved less for people I've loved more.

"I believe what it shows is that Gerald Woerlee is not only wrong but has also been trying to twist the facts to support his assumption"

From what I understand, Woerlee didn't have access to the original interview, do he didn't have all the facts. I believe he has written a response to Smit, but I don't know if it's been published yet.

'From what I understand, Woerlee didn't have access to the original interview, so he didn't have all the facts'

As I see it, Woerlee is not a fair minded skeptic. He is a very creative and cunning spreader of mis-information. He put words in the mouth of the prime witness in order to debunk a genuine first class piece of evidence.
The male nurse said(adamant) he removed the dentures before CPR and the thumper machine were started. This is very important! Why ? Because the patient was stone cold dead, no pulse, circulation ..nothing. He could not have seen or heard or imagined anything in that state. Not a chance.

So Woerlee had to ignore that uncomfortable piece of information so he could propose that the thumper machine brought him back to consciousness... just enough for him to see/hear the male nurse removing the dentures.
It didn't happen that way and this case is now almost impossible for the genuine skeptics to refute.

Art, just wanted to say I enjoy your posts very much (and this very intriguing blog). I'm not of a scientific background, and I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea of a holographic universe. It reminds me for some reason of some of the concepts in Jane Roberts' Seth books. I do struggle with why there are alternate dimensions/universes in the first place. Philosophically, perhaps it's only to separate the "wheat from the chaff," that this world we're in is to teach us lessons so that we can live in peace in the next. Because while most people are basically decent, there's a rather large percentage I wouldn't want to live among in the next world, no matter how beautiful it may be there. I also know that a lot of people, though not bad people, would not be very happy at all living in a world where they won't be able to one-up each other with material possessions--with the latest car, clothes, etc.--all the symbols of upper status in general. And while these may be basically decent people at heart, I don't fancy hanging around with them for eternity.

@Kathleen

Fortunately we will be in a world with people with whom we are compatible so your fears are groundless.

It is virtually impossible for those living in the fourth dimension to convey to us, who are liviving in a three-dimensional world, the reality of their existence.

Nevertheless, from the little we have been able to glean from their communications there is much that is similar to the world we live in and far more that is beyond our comprehension.

We will only know for sure once we pass to the next world.

"I also know that a lot of people, though not bad people, would not be very happy at all living in a world where they won't be able to one-up each other with material possessions--with the latest car, clothes, etc.--all the symbols of upper status in general. And while these may be basically decent people at heart, I don't fancy hanging around with them for eternity."

So, you want to live in the third world?

Thanks, Boggie, almost spit out my coffee on my key board, LOL.

I am sure in third-world countries it's the same, not "Look at my new Lexus," but "Look at my new cow."


There was a strange doctor called Woerlee
Who took evidence for survival so sorely
He made it his place to debunk every case
Cause the thought of a soul made him poorly.

Laugh.

Thanks, Cyrus,

Not as good as Zerdini's and Paul's me- thinks.

That was Trev's post, I'll think of a limerick later though.

Interesting article, but it seems unlikely that the nurse is able to remember exact details from an 8 years old event. People working in emergency care receives loads of people in critical condition - e.g. how should she be able to remember details about the drawer etc. when working in a high stress situation probably with adrenaline pumping.

Good limerick, Trev, and most apposite to the thread.

"it seems unlikely that the nurse is able to remember exact details from an 8 years old event."

I haven't been able to determine when the dentures case occurred. You would think this would be an easy piece of information to track down, but I haven't found it anywhere. As a result, I'm not sure how long after the event the nurse was interviewed for the first time. Is your figure of eight years based on a knowledge of the date of the original incident?

(Feeling the Body While Out of Body)

When I was 15 I had an out of body experience. I suddenly found my self just standing in my room and everything was red shifted in my vision. I looked behind me and saw myself laying on the bed. I could feel the pressure of the bed and the sensation of breathing at this same time as being aware in a seperate location. Besides seeing myself on the bed everything felt normal. Normal thoughts feelings, normal feeling of a body etc. I had no idea what an O.B.E. was so scared I had died I rushed back in my body!

I believe that discarnate you could possibly still feel your body somehow.

Thankyou most kindly Zerdini,... I had to go next door to ask a friend, Dick Shonnery, to enquire as to the meaning of 'apposite.' :)

Michael,
Woerlee(inferred from Smit's paper) does not dispute the original testimony from the male nurse)otherwise he wouldn't have spent all his considerable efforts to debunk it. He is now in a quandary. His first attempt at getting rid of the body has failed. The arm is sticking out of the freezer.

What to do , WHAT TO DO ?

Once in post-mortem ascension
One enters the seventh dimension-
Though the weather is fine
I do miss my wine
And other tid-bits too tawdry to mention.

Or perhaps:

I rose in post-mortem Ascension
Right up to the Seventh dimension
Though the weather here's fine,
I do miss my wine
And tit-bits too tawdry to mention.

Has anyone seen this on Youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBU4eZnQPc
There are 3 parts.

I found Trudi's NDE to be rather interesting.

I haven't been able to determine when the dentures case occurred. You would think this would be an easy piece of information to track down, but I haven't found it anywhere. As a result, I'm not sure how long after the event the nurse was interviewed for the first time. Is your figure of eight years based on a knowledge of the date of the original incident?

I assume the incident must have been at least 8 years old as this case was reported in this NDE study (http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm) first published in The Lancet in 2001. It might even be as old as 16 years as the group who had an NDE was followed for 8 years after their emergency incident.

After having read the original article I think the critism by Gerald Woerlee is also quite vague. If he is correct that patients immediately regain some semi-consciouness - incidents like this should be reported much more frequently.

Another argument supporting the nurse and Smit is the fact that the resuscitation took more than 15 minuts. It's my understanding that surviving more than 10 minuts without oxygen to the brain is very rare - so the case could very well be an unique incident for the nurse and the other people involed.

sbu - I suspect resuscitation may sometimes take more than 15 minutes to achieve. It would be interesting to hear about this from an ER/A&E nurse/doctor.In one famous case - Michael Jackson, apparently they tried to resuscitate him for over an hour.

"I suspect resuscitation may sometimes take more than 15 minutes to achieve."

The patient's hypothermia was a big factor in allowing him to be resuscitated after being clinically dead for so long.

"I assume the incident must have been at least 8 years old as this case was reported in this NDE study ... first published in The Lancet in 2001."

Smit says the 2001 Lancet article "was based on two documents. The first document was an article dated August, 1991, and written by Vincent Meijers, the third author of the Lancet article (van Lommel et al. 2001) where his name appeared as Meyers. He based the article on an interview he had conducted with another nurse who was aware of the reanimation procedure of the patient whose
dentures had been lost. Meijers’s focus in this paper was NDEs in general, and he made only brief reference to the denture anecdote.

"The second document was an interview transcript dated February 3, 1994. Ap Addink (A.A.), at the time a staff member of Merkawah Foundation who specialized in doing in-depth interviews with NDErs and other people, conducted this interview. On February 2, 1994, he spoke at length with the nurse who had removed the patient’s
dentures ..."

So the original interview with the nurse who removed the dentures took place in 1994, while the incident itself must have happened in 1991 or earlier.

If it happed in 1991, then there was a gap of about three years between the incident and the first interview. But I don't know if it happened in 1991 or years before. This seems like an important detail, yet it is not one that has ever been reported, to my knowledge.

'This seems like an important detail'

On the face of it, yes. But this male nurse was an impressive and very reliable witness ...and Gerald Woerlee is not calling into question the main facts of the case.

Basically, Woerlee's position is doomed to fail because now he is going to have to change the basis of his previous objections. And that would reveal him as nothing more than a determined debunker.

Keith Augustine informs me that the dentures incident took place in 1979! This is quite a long time before the first interview with the nurse (1994) and certainly should have been noted in Smit's article.

P.S. I guess this explains why Smit tells us that few Dutch people were aware of NDEs at the time. In 1979 NDEs had not yet been massively popularized through hit movies like "Ghost."

I can't help thinking that Smit withheld this piece of information because he knew it would weaken his case.

'Keith Augustine informs me that the dentures incident took place in 1979'

Michael, We are dealing here with a dispute between Gerry Woerlee and R Smit/Titas Rivas. IMHO, It wouldn't matter if the case had happened yesterday, as far as Keith Augustine was concerned. Keith would still prefer the reductionist explanation.

Smit did not publish this case first, it was of course Pim Van Lommel who referred to it in the Lancet paper. Van Lommel's take on it was correct(according to the prime witness)but Gerald Woerlee obviously thought he could debunk it with his professional and creative expertise. As I understand it, this nurse has never changed his account of the events which was also witnessed by other nurses.

It is very telling that Keith found it necessary to contact you.

this is a simple question. Who knows more about this situation. The nurse who was there or Dr Woerlee. To ask that question is to answer it.

"it was of course Pim Van Lommel who referred to it in the Lancet paper."

Yes, but the point is that the first interview with the nurse took place in 1994, so if the incident itself took place in 1979, that's a gap of fifteen years. I think this gap constitutes a weakness (not necessarily a fatal weakness) in the case.

Do I think the nurse could remember the event accurately after fifteen years? Yes, it's possible. I believe I have an accurate memory of a meaningful event that occurred to me in 1996. That was almost fifteen years ago.

But it would clearly be better if the interview had been conducted soon after the event.

And I do think it's unfortunate that Smit neglected to include this relevant piece of information in his article. Why omit it, except to make the case seem stronger than it is?

Details matter in all iconic cases. The more of them we have, and the fewer loose ends there are, however minor, the more righteously we can claim that NDEs deserve to be taken seriously.

The first relevant interview(of a different nurse who knew about the case) was by Meyers in 1991.

Lets wait for the reply (to Woerlee's latest paper) by Smit/Rivas apparently to be published soon in the JNDS.

Trev,

is Woerlee's latest paper online?

Best wishes,
Vitor

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