Between lives

So far I've read about half of Michael Newton's well-known book Journey of Souls, a record of the author's experiments in past-life regression through hypnosis. Actually, past-life regression is a bit of a misnomer in this case, since what Newton actually focuses on is what he calls the "life between lives." That is, he places his subjects in a state of "deep hypnosis," then asks them to describe their experiences between the earthly incarnations. The result is a detailed but, to my mind, not quite convincing depiction of the after-death (or pre-birth) environment.

There are several reasons why I'm not altogether sold on Newton's work. For one thing, it is well-known that subjects under hypnosis have a tendency to confabulate -- to make things up in order to please the hypnotist. (See D. Scott Rogo's book The Search for Yesterday for a detailed discussion of confabulation and the related topic of cryptomnesia.) Newton asserts that people in "deep hypnosis," unlike most hypnotic subjects, cannot confabulate, but he provides no evidence to back up this claim. 

One of Newton's arguments in favor of the veracity of his subjects' accounts is that they tend to agree with each other. But he also says that many of his patients approached him after being recommended by friends who had undergone the therapy. It seems likely, then, that some patients came into the process with preconceived notions of what to expect, which could explain the relative consistency of the reports.

From the fairly brief excerpts of the sessions presented in Newton's book, it's hard to know how much he may have unwittingly led his patients. Sometimes patients do contradict him or argue with him, but only over minor details. It is at least arguable that the general overview of the experiences they report is constructed out of conversations with Newton's other patients and Newton's own expectations. 

Another issue that arises in hypnosis is ESP. In the 19th century there was a great deal of interest in a possible connection between the hypnotic trance and telepathy. Experiments done at the time seemed to indicate that people who have been hypnotized demonstrate enhanced telepathic abilities; in other words, they are more receptive to other people's thoughts. I can't help wondering if Newton's patients are picking up his own thoughts and simply reciting them back to him.

Although Newton says he has obtained many descriptions of past lives on earth, he does not seem to have made any effort to corroborate these stories. In one case recounted in Journey of Souls, a patient recalls a life in the 19th century as an Oklahoma prosecutor named Ross Feldon, who committed suicide at age 33 (p. 57). This is the kind of thing that could probably be checked by poring over historical records, but Newton makes no mention of trying to confirm the account.

When it comes to the "life between lives" reported by so many of his patients, there is no way, even in theory, to empirically confirm the stories. We are left having to compare them to accounts provided by near-death experiencers and mediums. Though there are some areas of overlap, there are also significant discrepancies. The life review, described in so many NDEs, is absent from Newton's reports. His subjects say they talk about the events of their earthly lives with their spirit guides, and they may look through books that contain moving images drawn from their past lives, but there is no description of any holographic reliving of one's life.

There also is very little discussion of what has been called Paradise or Summerland -- the earthlike environment of the afterlife, featuring gardens, meadows, houses, birds, etc. Some of Newton's subjects do recall studying in a beautiful library, but for the most part the afterlife environment, as they depict it, seems to consist of blobs of color (which are souls) zipping around in a rather abstract geometric setting. It reminds me a little of the old sci-fi movie Tron.

Information that comes through mediums usually indicates that the topic of reincarnation remains controversial even among the departed, with some of them expecting to be reincarnated and others believing differently. But if Newton's accounts are to be believed, there couldn't be any confusion in the matter, because the newly departed soul is almost immediately reunited with its friends from other lifetimes, and proceeds to spend nearly all of its time in heaven preparing for its next incarnation. There is really no way to reconcile these contradictory accounts, so either the channeled information is wrong or Newton's information is wrong (or both are wrong).

One thing that makes me a tad suspicious about the claims elicited by Newton is that his patients become evasive or uncommunicative when difficult questions are put to them. Newton interprets this as meaning that they are "blocked" from divulging certain details, but another interpretation is they've been confabulating, and when they reach a point where their imagination fails them or they aren't sure of the answer a therapist wants to hear, they clam up.

It may seem that I'm being overly critical. If so, one reason is that I'm not particularly inspired by what I've read so far. At this point, I'm finding Journey of Souls to be a rather blah and uninspiring vision of the hereafter. I'm not sure I want to be a blob of color drifting among other blobs, trapped in an endless cycle of earthly incarnations punctuated by tedious classroom lessons. As far as I'm concerned, the visions of the afterlife presented by Swedenborg and later mediums, as quaint and old-fashioned as they may seem to some, hold considerably more charm and appeal.

This personal preference on my part doesn't mean Newton is wrong. It does mean, however, that I will need to see a lot more evidence before I'm convinced.

Comments

[Ben]

I remember reading Newton's books a few years ago, and your post reminds me very much of my reaction at the time. I didn't think of the telepathic option, though -that's an interesting hypothesis.

[Sandy]

I haven't concerned myself too much with the whole "what's it like on the other side" question other than what I experienced in my NDE, but from what little I've seen, it does seem much more interesting than blobs drifting around other blobs.

Ghosts all seem to have their own perspectives on these things. Some of them see a much bigger existence than I can fathom, but others are much more restricted in what they experience than I am. I guess people here are kind of the same in that each of us looks at things in our own way. That fact alone makes things pretty darn interesting.

[Paul S]

If it were possible to observe ourselves from a different frequency then we may already appear as blobs of energy, creating the context of human existence within our consciousness.

That said, having read Newtons books i find the constant school, lifetime cycle unappealing. The constant drive for personal progression seems very empty and self-indulgent.

[Matt Rouge]

Hi Michael,

I just got turned onto your blog the other week and have read quite a few of your archived posts. Great writing, great insights!

Life between lives is a very interesting topic. To add a couple questions:

1. Do mediums ever say, "I can't get in touch with your loved one, as s/he has be reincarnated"? I can't recall ever seeing such a response in my readings. It would seem that, even if a person eventually reincarnates, s/he is still "permanently" in the afterlife.

2. So, I wonder if the afterlife is multi-layered, such that people can at the same time be in the Summerland and on the "reincarnation track?

Another personal observation. I feel that I rather accurately remember my past four past lives (and several out of order before them), but I don't have memories at all of my "lives between lives." Could this again be related to the "dual track" possibility? IOW, my past selves continue to have their lives in the afterlife while a "shared self" has continued to reincarnate.

I haven't read Newton, and if I did I might similarly be unimpressed. Could it be possible, however, that his subjects are perceiving a particular "interface" of the Afterlife process? Perhaps the blobs of color, etc., are one way of perceiving the "reincarnation track" action that excludes the "Summerland experience."

My overall impression, based on trying to put together my own spiritual experiences, accounts of NDEs, past lives, OBEs, etc., is that the "Afterlife ecosystem" is probably far more complex than we expect (and perhaps more complex than we would desire it to be).

Thanks for your thoughts, and the thoughts of the group.

[Michael Prescott]

"It would seem that, even if a person eventually reincarnates, s/he is still 'permanently' in the afterlife."

Newton actually addresses this point, saying that souls are always at least partially present in the afterlife. When incarnated, they operate at a reduced energy level in the afterlife environment.

For what it's worth ...

[william]

I studied Newton’s three books for about two years and found them interesting. Much of his findings does cross validate with other advanced spiritual teachings. One of the exceptions to the best of my memory was that Newton did not have one patient that found a Hades condition on the other side. This does not cross validate well with Spiritist teachings, Spiritualism, mediumship, NDE’s, OBE’s, Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian teachings. This could be that his students were of the advanced spiritual souls. But if they were advanced they would have known about such a dimension?

His findings on soul groups or soul bands cross validates well with other aspects of my findings. Also his findings on the earth experience as lessons for the soul. He does admit the has no idea of where souls originate.

One question I wrote and asked him about his findings on life between lives he responded but in such a brief response I did not understand his response. Then I wrote him and asked him about where the human creature soul resides after the spiritual soul leaves its physical body because he claims a soul inhabits a human creature to live the life of a human to learn lessons. He also claims that animal’s meaning animal creatures have souls. If that is the case is there a dimension of souls or a one human species soul that is just for the human’s creature species. He did not respond to that question.

So I asked several of his students on the Internet and one responded but that person stated, “I have never thought about that”.

Another of his students trained by Newton that I communicated with stated that what to expect from his hypnosis is that you may not go between lives but you will feel much love and acceptance during the 4hr hypnosis session. For six hundred dollars of course. I have been under hypnosis several times not by Newton’s’ students and it was a wonderful and interesting experience.

I do think Dr. Newton has much to offer with his books but it remains to be seen how much of the information comes from the person under hypnosis, Dr. Newton’s beliefs and paradigms, possible telepathy between patient and Newton, and Dr. Newton’s influence and other paranormal or spiritual possibilities that I do not know about.

As with any such spiritual book I think it is worth reading and studying but always to keep in mind it is a source of possible evidence and not to be taken as a book of complete truth. Then it becomes a religion and with religion the proverbial blinders come on.

[Cyrus]

I would rather be reincarnated on earth than to live in the Troniverse of new-agey spirit clouds. No wonder nobody stays there very long.

Blob 1: "Heey, what's up Steve? What did you do today?"

Blob 2: "Well, I kind of floated around"

Blob 1: "Right, same here. Do you want to check out that new pub, the one next to that big wavey thing that looks like the aurora-borialis?"

Blob 2: "That pub? Oh, it evaporated last night"

Blob 1: "I think I'm going back to Earth, I'll see you later.."

[Louise]

I wondered for a long time about reincarnation. I don't believe in it - to me the soul is the person, one per customer, and reducing it to a rechargeable battery, or the people we are to nothing more than roles played by an actor, makes no sense at all. But I wasn't about to say "it didn't happen" of people's past-life claims, because it's hardly for me to do so. Once when I was thinking about this, Louis dropped two words in (being his usual laconic self) - "connected lives".

He's since enlarged on that: it's not the same soul going around and around (which seems to me a pretty useless notion if one doesn't know about it, or what the 'lessons' are one's supposed to be learning). It's more like a bond of empathy between souls, like links in a chain. The memories may be real but they are memories of someone else's life, they're messages. Why it should happen I have no idea, nor do I particularly care. I'm not even sure Louis knows much more about it than he's told me, and I'm pretty sure he's not that interested either. He's very good at living in the present ... and at present, his garden and his composing are of much more interest than philosophical or spiritual contemplations! :)

[michael duggan]

Joel L Whitton Ph.D's book Life Between Life (with Joe Fisher) also deals with the life between life state or interlife as it was referred to. In this book patients reported phenomena very similar to typical NDE accounts. I have also heard of other hypnotic attempts that resulted in corroborative accounts. I would consider the work of Newton, therefore to be an outlier, possibly facilitated by subconscious expectations of Newton subjects.
Additionally, these hypnotic accounts (except Newton's) are also similar to ancient Tibetan accounts. Here the interlife is referred to as the Bardo state.

[Matt Rouge]

Louise,

Interesting. Yes, I've thought about the same possibility myself: that I am remembering someone else's life, not my own past life.

Of course, the whole idea of reincarnation posits that the past life is not totally me. Buddhism would say that certain seeds of consciousness are what is passed on, not an immortal soul.

I guess the ultimate question is, What is the exact nature and mechanism of the connection? To me, this question is related to another: How is it that I can remain Myself day in, day out?

Are the I of yesterday and the I of today related only through a "connected life"? All of the atoms of my body have been replaced many times over. If the soul is what remains constant, what is its nature?

And so on.

[william]

I think the thought of reincarnation is so unpleasant to most that the human ego will do some pretty interesting things to deny that it may exist. Much of my research reveals that consciousness evolves and a child that crosses over at an early age has not had the same opportunities to evolve in their evolution of consciousness process as a person that has lived on earth for many years.

What I consider as advanced spirits that come through mediums talk of living many lives before they were able to reach a state of consciousness that they no longer needed to reincarnate on earth. They state once we learn the lessons earth has to offer the most important being to be able to discern the underlying reality of phenomena they don’t need to return to earth.

The earth appears to be one big (or not so big if we consider the size of the universe) perfectly imperfect schoolhouse

I think a spiritual seeker in time can discern that this earth has all levels of soul development living on earth as humans. I just read that is how the Hindus created a caste system; they attempted to identify their citizens into levels of soul development and it became a social status rather than an indicator of soul development. There was a tribe of Indians in a southern state of America that noticed similar phenomena and to avoid this type of caste system they forced intermarriage between the four levels of development that they had identified.

My point where did these different levels of soul development originate, if not with past lives on earth? Children bring a lot of personality, traits, and attributes with them and many believe they learn fast due to recollection not just learning new material for the first time.

Some children speak a foreign language with no training and it leaves them at an early age. If it was spirit possession or just a bond with other souls would the child lose those memories at such an early age. Although Myers talked about this group soul phenomena rather than an individual souls reincarnating.

Then we have the question of the origin of souls. From whence did they (we) come into this world? It appears nature may indeed be an incubator for souls. To Newton’s credit he makes no claims as to knowing the origin of souls.

[Roger Knights]

"I'm not sure I want to be a blob of color drifting among other blobs, trapped in an endless cycle ..."

A lava lamp life-style!

[LisaNYC]

I find the most convincing source for evidence of the afterlife is the NDERF's recent NDE section on their website (NDERF.com). Dr. Jeffrey Long, one of the owners of the website, recently came out with his book "Evidence of the Afterlife" that you've written about here. There are hundreds of similar reports, many of them by skeptics who knew absolutely nothing about NDEs before their own experience, yet their accounts are all amazingly identical. Many of the hundreds and hundreds of cases were able to accurately perceive events from outside their physical bodies that took place while the were "dead," that were later verified by medical staff and others. Their reunions with deceased relatives also match up.

I've read parts of Newton's books, but they don't resonate with me as powerfully as the reports by Near-death Experiencers.

[realpc]

I don't see a reason why the hypnotized subjects would lie. And if the between lives world is uninteresting, at least that agrees with some ancient or primitive concepts. In the Old Testament, for example, the dead are in a land of shadows where they can't even worship god.

Maybe there is a glorious heaven or nirvana, but most of us would not get there, at least not for a long time.

[william]

“Maybe there is a glorious heaven or nirvana, but most of us would not get there, at least not for a long time.”

Much of my studying and reading and personal experience has revealed that there is not one place like a heaven or nirvana but dimensions of existence, which includes a temporal Hades (temporal being relative) condition and a paradise that some refer to as Summerland. This Summerland appears to be where most souls arrive to after a short time in transition after this physical life.

These levels of existence have much to do with our level of consciousness, which affects our vibration level, and this vibration level determines what dimension we arrive at after we leave these physical bodies. Then there is the possibility of being earth bound and that is another story so to speak.

We are truly Beings of light with unique vibration levels.

“And if the between lives world is uninteresting”

That is not what my research has revealed to me; quite the contrary most spirits tell us that there is much more clarity and an interesting and even satisfying mode of living in these higher dimensions then were possible on earth. Hades being an exception of course as like attracts like in these worlds and our world also.

[Michael Prescott]

"I think the thought of reincarnation is so unpleasant to most that the human ego will do some pretty interesting things to deny that it may exist."

Interestingly, the book "The Risen" by August Goforth and Timothy Gray makes the opposite argument - that people's egos have created the idea of reincarnation because they want reassurance that they will return to the familiar earth environment.

"The Risen" argues that while there is no such thing as reincarnation, people can get temporarily lost in an illusion of reincarnation if they so desire.

[Louise]

Michael, I've read a similar argument in a book arguing against reincarnation. Can't remember the name at present - it wasn't a book I'd particularly recommend, because it was a hotch-potch of other people's writing (and a shuddersome example of how bad self-published books can be!). But it did mention one case where a spirit was saying he'd believed so strongly in reincarnation that he tried to enter a human child - a sort of possession, in effect - and needed to be helped out. I'll have to look it up and see if that case was well documented, but it was interesting.

The thing that really irks me with the idea of reincarnation is that it not only seems to undervalue the individual, but that it too often drags animals into a human concern. I've heard people talking perfectly seriously about ants getting bad karma. I mean, for pity's sake, a collective insect having to abide by human ideas of "virtue"? I've also read that the Buddhist (or Hindu? More likely the latter) view is that animals are sorry they're not human, that they want to reincarnate as our so-wonderful species. Now that strikes me as the last word in anthropcentric egotism.

As I've had it from Louis, one is perfectly capable of living one's whole life (as his children who were miscarried here did) across the veil. One can learn and grow and develop there just as much as here. I don't think it's a judgement thing (apart from those who cut themselves off by wallowing in hate, anger and so on) at all. Nor do I go with the "most of us won't get to Heaven/Nirvana" idea. Why have humans all living at a human level if it's already decided "this isn't good enough"? It's almost as ugly an idea as predestination, that most of us are labelled as FAIL. Why bother? Is the bar really set that high? Why can't we just live and grow at our normal pace, however long it takes? Does one expect a toddler to do a uni degree? No, it takes time. I think our lives on earth are just our toddler years, in a way. Why it works that way I've no idea, nor do I care one way or another. We'll all get potty trained eventually. :)

[william]

“Interestingly, the book "The Risen" by August Goforth and Timothy Gray makes the opposite argument”

I suspect that Goforth and Gray already had a belief that reincarnation does not exist before they did their research or wrote their book. Personally when I found that reincarnation was a probable reality it did not make my day or month or year.

If it does not exist that is perfectly ok with me but I have to look at the data and the data does suggest to others and myself that reincarnation may indeed exist. But there are other explanations so one cannot say for 100% sure at least from my point of view.

I base my data on many different aspects of my research but my to do list at this time does not include to be reincarnated. The evidence for me at least is that more data exists that supports reincarnation than against it. As far as the some Hindus believing such things as mentioned that is religious misunderstanding of what may be a divine principle.

If I do have to be reincarnated please lord not on a dairy farm. Up at 4:30 milk cows until 7:am then off to school then home from school at 3:30 then milk cows and chores until 7:pm. Then dinner dishes. Well you get the picture.

Reincarnation is one of those examples of my hoping I am wrong. Spirit possession for some children that speak a foreign language until the child is 5 or so year’s old then the spirit leaves the child sounds inconsistent to me. Also I disagree a child can learn the same lessons in other dimensions. Harsh physical life gives the greatest opportunity for soul development. Do they have cows that need milked on the other side and farm chores? I think not. :-)

[Louise]

I'd say that a soul "having" to learn its life lessons here sounds to me the same as saying everyone on earth should live life as a peasant, or whatever is the harshest life one can imagine, or they'll miss out somehow. Not everyone is going to live that way, they won't be born in such a society.And such a life can stultify the mind as much as anything else. Not what I'd call a lesson of any sort. Are those who live materially easy lives here going to be punished for that? That would hardly be just. And I seriously doubt that earthly life is any guarantee of soul development anyway. Look at the people who don't seem to learn anything during their lives!

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, William. Louis gave me an answer that was both unexpected and made sense to me. :)

[william]

“I'd say that a soul "having" to learn its life lessons here sounds to me the same as saying everyone on earth should live life as a peasant, or whatever is the harshest life one can imagine, or they'll miss out somehow”

This is one of the great fallacies of human life that being poor is always more harsh as living a comfortable life. Wealth can be as harsh of teacher and often even more so as being poor.

When Jesus stated it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven that was not false teachings. The religious have even made up a story to offset those teachings. Something to do with money I suspect in their weekly takes. I.e. don’t chase off the rich folks. (Heaven is not Summerland or Paradise dimension but exists at a higher vibration level).

“And I seriously doubt that earthly life is any guarantee of soul development anyway”

There are no guarantees but one: the law of progression of the soul. No soul is left behind but some take longer than others to advance to a level of seeing the underlying reality of phenomena. That variation thing again.

Very seldom is reality ever discussed if we look close most are only interested in phenomena. We tend to judge by appearances and seldom see the meaning or underlying reality of the phenomena.

“Look at the people who don't seem to learn anything during their lives!”

We are not at a level of understanding to judge what a soul learns and does not learn. One could be homeless and learn more about love, compassion, and divine intelligence than a Supreme Court justice or whatever. Only those that are capable of righteous judgment could evaluate what a soul has learned in this life. The word judgment is a poor choice of a word here unless we replace righteous judgment with blameless judgment then it works.

How many humans have you met with the ability to do blameless judgment? I met one entity on the other side capable of blameless judgment but to date no one in this world including myself.

“I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, William”

In this instance I hope you are right and I am wrong about my data but I must follow the evidence in spite of my personal feelings about reincarnation. Feelings can be very misleading and often poor indicators of reality.

[Erich]

"When Jesus stated it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven that was not false teachings."

A foot note on a tangent (maybe it is interesting).........most people think that the "camel" being referred to in the Jesus quote is the animal that one rides in the desert. Most likely it is not. The greek (from which our translation comes) word for the animal is the same as the greek word for the thick rope that was used on sailing ships at the time. The metaphor is more consistent if we consider Jesus making a comparison to a thick rope versus a thread going through the eye of a needle.

My personal experiences with hypnotism leave me very much doubting its ability to induce valid recollections of anything; let alone past lives.

I don't hypnotize well. I can't see the imagery that the hypnotist guides subjects through. I can't seem to follow their suggestions. That being said, at the urging of friends, I did undergo past life regression on two separate occassions. The first time I saw myself as an Arab. I was killed in some kind of inter-tribal conflict (shot down in a gun battle). I gave the date as 1933 when asked by the hypnotist. Even as I was experiencing the regression it felt like a fantasy of some kind and I wasn't at all convinced.

In the second session I saw myself in my immediately preceeding life as a US Marine and I was killed in action in the Pacific in WW2.

Now this would have been impossible, chronologically, if the first regression (as an Arab) were true. I'm pretty sure that no 10 year olds were permitted to enlist regardless of how badly troops were need.

The second regression had more of a ring of truth to it. I had been fascinated with fire arms and physical fitness since I was a very young child. I even used to sing the Marine Corps hymn as a small child, but then I knew my father had been a Marine in WW2 (his uniforms then still hung in a closet along with a captured Japanese rifle) and I had served during and after college and through the (first) gulf war. So, the regression material could very easily have a been a normal psychological processing of all of that.

I agree with the skeptics here. Hypnotism is just mostly suggestions from the hypnotist and a desire to please from the subject with, maybe, a little enhanced psi ability thrown into the mix. I give the method no cred. at all.

[Paul]

I often wonder whether the more veridical reincarnation memories might also be explained by some form of spirit obsession (including apparent physical marks which have been reported as appearing in some examples of apparent possession). Perhaps the subject is picking up the memories and personality of some other person rather like mediums claim to be able to do?

As far as our purpose is concerned: is it possible that our physical existence is simply a necessary stage in our natural development and individualisation and has no more significance in the long term? Perhaps whatever experiences we gather, whether we are here for a short time or longer, are in themselves only valuable in that we may derive lessons from them for ourselves or others.

It seems to me that whether we are wealthy, or smart, more or less successful, or whether we discover talents in an environment where we can develop them is down to good fortune for many. To quote the (I think) Bible 'time and unforeseen occurrence befall all men'. Perhaps the lessons we extract are about how we deal with such events.

Purported communications from those who no longer inhabit a physical body often refer to the difficulties involved in overcoming a medium's own personal beliefs and thoughts to make themselves properly understood. If one accepts for arguments'sake that such communications are possible, perhaps the reverse is also true.

If it is possible at all, one would expect the best people to answer questions about the life hereafter (if there is one) would be those who actually live there in respect of which there seems to be a great deal of material to be consulted.

I think it is potentially misleading to trust our recollections and experiences especially when we are in some altered form of consciousness and cannot be certain what influences might be at work.

[.]

The 'eye of the needle' might also have been a very small gateway through the walls of jerusalem, where it was extremely difficult to get a camel through.

[Tharpa]

Well, I guess it's all just a big freakin' mystery. Which is as it should be. But a couple thoughts- I read the Newton books and found them touching emotionally if not intellectually convincing. But when people disagreed with Newton's leading questions, they really disagreed adamantly, forcefully even. I tend to think there is a psychic collusion going on. At any rate, there is so much pain in horrible lives being expressed by these folks it sure doesn't feel like pure fantasy. But, yeah, the details of the otherworld expressed by Newton's clients seems so narrow and prescribed- the Universe as one big home schoolin'.

BTW, I've been reading this channeled stuff from the 80s, the Ra material (google Ra law of one for transcripts). Now, I don't know where this stuff comes from and I've tended to gag over 'channeled' stuff over the years, but this is really entertaining reading. A lot of it makes sense to me, but the older I get- the more 'what the hell do I know!' comes to mind. Cheers!

[Tharpa]

Oh yeah, and I still think the best argument for reincarnation (in the Buddhist, non-theistic sense here) is that some kids are born wise, others- well, let's just say you can't fix stupid. Non in one lifetime!

[william]

“Hypnotism is just mostly suggestions from the hypnotist and a desire to please from the subject with,”

This statement does not reflect my experiences with hypnotism. I think we still have much to learn with hypnotism which Newton to his credit does make a similar statement as to the future of past life and between life regressions.

“The metaphor is more consistent if we consider Jesus making a comparison to a thick rope versus a thread going through the eye of a needle.”

As I stated stories have been created to explain what appears to be an outlandish teaching. The one story I am most familiar with is the camel going through a low arch entering into a city in Israel.

“The 'eye of the needle' might also have been a very small gateway through the walls of Jerusalem, where it was extremely difficult to get a camel through.”

This is the story I was referring to. A materialistic paradigm has a very difficult time with such a teaching about a rich man getting into heaven as heaven is often thought of as the dimension most cross over to when leaving this physical world.

“Perhaps the lessons we extract are about how we deal with such events.”

The lessons can be harsh but I suspect worthwhile. As one of my favorite teachers stated many times in his life: There are two ways to learn, one is through the wisdom of others and other way is through suffering and most of us choose suffering.

“Some kids are born wise, others- well, let's just say you can't fix stupid. Non in one lifetime!”

Stupid is as stupid does as they say. Children appear to have all different levels of soul development, which can make the case for previous experience as a human. As far as fixing stupid; which in my mind is limited awareness or unawareness compared to other children what we sow we reap or karma is a universal principle that exists to fix “stupid”.

[william]

“Now, I don't know where this stuff comes from and I've tended to gag over 'channeled' stuff over the years, ……….. A lot of it makes sense to me, but the older I get- the more 'what the hell do I know!' comes to mind. Cheers!”

As one of my favorite mediums that sought only knowledge from the other side and not one cent of financial rewards wrote:

“We must go beneath the surface of Reality back of expression if we wish to come in touch with All, and to do this it is necessary to find some starting point that is common to the human race. We cannot find this common ground in our environment, which sets us one against the other in contrasting conditions, nor in our personality, which is largely an outgrowth of our diversified experiences, so we turn at last to that which lies within us, confident that it also forms the foundation of every other human life and individual members of the human race. It is that which lies beyond the threshold of our consciousness and forms the vast continent of life, on the shores of which we are but pioneers.”

What lies beyond that threshold of our consciousness but our level of awareness?

[Michael Prescott]

“The metaphor is more consistent if we consider Jesus making a comparison to a thick rope versus a thread going through the eye of a needle.”

That's interesting, Erich. Thanks for that info. I'd heard the "city gate" explanation but not the one you offered.

I've never been hypnotized, but I do have my doubts about the technique. There have been cases of suggestible patients who reported vivid memories of sexual abuse that turned out to be unfounded. And we all remember the rash of stories about child molesting in the 1980s, based on the testimony of very young children who were (in most cases) confabulating. The children weren't hypnotized, but at that age they can slip easily into what an adult would call an altered state of consciousness.

The mind is a monkey, and it likes to play tricks ...

[william]

The spirits book by Allan Kardec has a chapter on reincarnation and one question asked was: “the soul then has many corporeal existences”?

The purported response from a spirit was: “yes; we all have many such existences. Those that maintain the contrary wish to keep you in the same ignorance in which they are themselves”.

The word ignorance is interesting here, as most humans would rather be called sinful and even evil then ignorant. What is ignorance but unawareness; and who among us can claim perfect and infinite awareness?

It is interesting to me at least to postulate what is the purpose, meaning, and origin of our unawareness.

“The metaphor is more consistent if we consider Jesus making a comparison to a thick rope versus a thread going through the eye of a needle.”

The soul that is at a level of awareness of being destined for heaven, which may be two or more dimensions higher than Summerland, would have no need for wealth or even the pursuit of wealth.

History shows us the reality of Jesus teachings about the eye of the needle when we look at the lives of sages, prophets, and spiritual leaders. Either way rope going through a needle or a camel through a needed the odd of either going through the eye of a needle is nil to none.

“And we all remember the rash of stories about child molesting in the 1980s, based on the testimony of very young children who were (in most cases) confabulating”

I heard two of those children who are now adults on the witness stand confessing to their being told to lie. They appeared to be very upset and with much guilt that they had lied and the consequences of their lies sent a man to prison.

[MatthewX78]

Micheal,

I have read Journey and Destiny of Souls by Micheal Newton and am about to read his book on his method. I have had the same skepticism but interest in his work. I think it would be awesome if his work turned out to be acurate, but like you, I question that because all his patients are from the same area and could have been recommended by friends that some details could be fabricated.

However, he claims that people who have never heard of his work say the same things. He also claims that other thearpist get the same results.

You should check out the book;

The Wisdom of the Soul by Ian Lawton.

He does a between life study 5 particpants have heard of and read micheal newton, and 5 had not.

The all said extremely similar things while under hypnosis according to lawton.

[Louise]

Being inclined to believe any given position can of course influence one's response to research, reading and so on. But so, I think, can being afraid that what you DON'T want is true. It seems to me to be the "too good to be true" notion kicking in, if you find something you're scared of or repelled by seems "true". Why should it always be the worst outcome is the right one? I don't believe that for a minute. My own experiences refute it - I was always inclined to believe there was NO afterlife, that the man I loved no longer existed, but I have found the opposite is true. Not from study, from personal experience. I'm not going on my feelings regarding reincarnation, although I freely admit I find it an obnoxious doctrine. I'm going on very clear communication from a man who's had over three centuries in Spirit, in writing I am very careful to check and make sure I've got right. He's hardly someone who is "seeking to keep me in ignorance" and I'm not too impressed with the alleged spirit who made that statement, to be frank. The same claim could be made of those who say we DO reincarnate, after all.

There always seems to be a touch of "I'll/you'll never be good enough" in reincarnation theories, and guilt hanging around, just the same as some Christians' guilt and sense of never being good enough in God's eyes. The reincarnation thing gets bound up with caste, in India at least: look at the treatment of the Dalit. And the whole wish to cease to effectively cease to exist seems sad and a tad perverse, to me.

As to divine writings - funny, isn't it. We are inclined to accept the scriptures of some religions but not others; are any of our beliefs more real than ancient Egyptian faiths, for instance?

[Erich]

William, yes, the metaphor stands whether it refers to a camel or a rope going through the eye of a needle. I just thought it was interesting trivia..... The Aramaic word gamla means rope and camel. Also, the Greek words for rope (ka' mi los) and camel (ka' me los) are very similar, and it has been suggested that there was a confusion of the Greek words......

Jesus was a communist as much as anything else ;-)

Also, my sense is that reincarnation is probably something that happens, but I'd rather look to Ian Stevenson and similar than to hypnotists for the concrete evidence.

[DaveW]

Michael,
I've always thought myself to be much on the same page with you, but I must "rise up and post" in support of Newton's work.
Though subjective, and supported by only faith, belief and personal experience, I found Newton's books to resonate strongly within me, and unlike some others, to give me a hope of a happier hereafter than my life experience at present.
I do admit that some of the things his subjects bring forth in his later books, (such as the birth of souls), caused me to pause, but in all such things I have to ask myself, "Who am I to know?". Perhaps.
At the same time I bought Newton's first book, I also read "The Lost Secret of Death"by Peter Novak about the binary soul doctrine. I re-read Newton's books for spiritual comfort. I found I had to re-read Novak just to get my mind around something I found more difficult to understand, as well as much more disquieting.
I think it is the assault to our ego that prevents many from accepting the idea of reincarnation. -Our present self is no more our real self than that of any of our past inacrnations .We are truly a higher self, as much unkown to our present egos, as an actor absorbed in their role.

[michael duggan]

http://skeptic.org.uk/news/2010/2494

Interesting video of Sam Parnia and the AWARE study.

Apologies for off topic posting.

[william]

Eric thanks for the update on the camel and rope thing. It makes more sense with rope going through the eye of needle as impossible then about a camel. Either way impossible.

“I think it is the assault to our ego that prevents many from accepting the idea of reincarnation”

Well stated.

“I re-read Newton's books for spiritual comfort”

It is good to have comfort. I found his books did cross validate well with other aspects of my reading and study but there were several aspects of his findings that did not cross validate well.

Hypnosis is an interesting phenomenon and we still have much to learn about its potential, which Newton admits to in his books.

[Sam]

http://skeptic.org.uk/news/2010/2494
Funny how Sam Parnia usually seems to be placed in the "believers" camp, but in this video he mentions that he suspects NDEs are just a trick of the mind.

[Cyrus]

Saw Sam Parnia's video.

My feeling is that he's not necessarily promoting his new, materialist view so much as he's trying to address a room full of skeptics, and playing devil's advocate a little bit as he introduces concepts such as the mind being a separate phenomenon, like gravity, etc.

What concerns me is that he thinks that if the AWARE study does not return with results of people seeing his images in the hospital rooms, then the NDE can basically be discounted as a mental phenomenon.

The problem is that so many NDEs really do not involve the autoscopy state (being out of your body IN the hospital room). So many NDEs involve the experiencer being immediately rushed into a new environment, such as an astral state, a heaven like realm, etc.

So many more NDEs the experiencer is just floating around, trying to figure out what's going on, and is not necessarily out looking for images or random things in the hospital room.

Furthermore, this line of reasoning discounts other areas of evidence related to the NDE such as blind people having sight again, and other areas addressed by Dr. Long and others.

It's one rather shoddy experimental theory which he will attempt to use to solve the NDE problem.

[Erich]

"I think it is the assault to our ego that prevents many from accepting the idea of reincarnation”

Yes. Just as with the objection to psychedelic drugs, many people fear and loath the idea that they are something beyond the little historic ego personalty built over the course of 70 years or so.

They actually want an afterlife where Aunt Martha is Aunt Martha just as she was on earth in the specific lifetime that she was known as Aunt Martha; for ever and ever. And where they, themselves, are just like they were on earth, but, maybe, with a little more knowledge or "enlightenment" (whatever that is). Bob is still the same old Bob that played varsity football and married Betty Sue, worked as an accountant,etc, etc but now he is just more knowledgeable concerning whatitsallabout.

An alternative view is that we are all spiritual forces that sometimes wear the mask of Bob or Aunt Martha and at other times and places some other masks. The temporal constructs of Bob and Aunt Martha are smoke in the wind. But the spirit itself....well...."The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

[william]

...."The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Well not so fast here. What is unknowable? Spirit?

The soul is on a journey seeking purpose and meaning to its existence. Do not listen to the world that tells us this cannot be known or that cannot be known. Nothing is unknowable except maybe infinite awareness but at this stage of our journey there is much to learn, know, and realize before we get even in the ballpark of thinking about knowing infinite.

What would life be like if these mysteries of life did not exist? One of the great joys in life is discovery. Young children teach us that. We are not children of the infinite but we are expressions of this infinite awareness.

With the infinite creation of expressions we know as souls, the Infinite gets the joy of infinite discoveries.

[Erich]

"The soul is on a journey seeking purpose and meaning to its existence"

That is an assumption on your part, William; though it is also one that many people seem to make. Perhaps the soul knows exactly what it is doing and it is merely the ego that is all confused and asking questions, largely out of fear.

"...but at this stage of our journey there is much to learn, know, and realize before we get even in the ballpark of thinking about knowing infinite."

Same reply as above.

"What would life be like if these mysteries of life did not exist?"

It would be deeper, more powerful and more meaningful, in my opinion. We would all be acting from our true base of power and energy as opposed to sitting around asking silly questions and doubting ourselves and getting confused.

"One of the great joys in life is discovery." Another great joy is simply feeling the life force that is one's existance.

"We are not children of the infinite but we are expressions of this infinite awareness." Another assumption, but one I tend to share with you - at least the last part because I'm not sure what would differentiate being a child of the infinite from being an expression of it. Same thing to me. That being said, as expressions (or children) of the infinite, totally experiencing ourselves - our full range of awareness potential - is experiencing everything that we possibly can and, again, this experience is a great joy; is it not? What is there to be "discovered"? What else could be discovered?

"With the infinite creation of expressions we know as souls, the Infinite gets the joy of infinite discoveries." Agreed, sort of.... This is not an intellectual exercise. You cannot think yourself through it. It is about simply being aware/alive and not filtering that awareness through the lense of some petty ego constructs. It's about freedom of the mind and soul. Why is this all happening? Who the hell knows? I doubt very much we can know. I am highly suspect of anyone incarnate or disincarnate who claims to have the answer. In some way, I think wanting to have that answer is an act of ego cowardice and a fatal weakness; like a mortal sin.

[Louise]

I don't see why the idea of the reality and importance of our personalities - the term "ego" is so dismissive - is put down as something lesser or worthless. On the one hand it's "learn to live in the moment" and on the other "this life is nothing, you are just pretend". Yes, I find that a noxious notion. Love and joy and learning are experienced BY these individual people, and no, I do not see the spirit - the soul - as some battery just charging one body after another.

Enough. This is just irritating me and that isn't really helpful. I'll take the person I know who has developed HUGELY over his long life in Spirit over any wish for nonexistence.

[Ross]

Much of his findings does cross validate with other advanced spiritual teachings.

-Are you actually claiming to be someone who KNOWS how to distinguish between what is advanced and what is not? Based on what? Whether or not they promote reincarnation?

It's more like a bond of empathy between souls, like links in a chain.

-Yep, that's exactly what I say...reincarnation and karma are both fantasies derived from human minds. Both fall apart drastically when questioned deeply and critically.

Much of my research reveals that consciousness evolves and a child that crosses over at an early age has not had the same opportunities to evolve in their evolution of consciousness process as a person that has lived on earth for many years.

-What on earth is so absolutely necessary in this world that is not possible anywhere else in any other way? What you have said is just unequivocally a belief system.

What I consider as advanced spirits that come through mediums talk of living many lives before they were able to reach a state of consciousness that they no longer needed to reincarnate on earth.

-Well, no one said that spirits you consider to be advanced, actually are. This is a belief that YOU hold.

There was a tribe of Indians in a southern state of America that noticed similar phenomena and to avoid this type of caste system they forced intermarriage between the four levels of development that they had identified.

-I suppose you're going to say that this would be some kind of reincarnational evidence.

My point where did these different levels of soul development originate, if not with past lives on earth?

-It seems to me that you can find evidence of reincarnation in practically everything. Try believing it is fantasy and you'll probably find a lot of evidence for that belief as well, provided you actually permit yourself to honestly do this. Most theosophists I know find evidence of reincarnation everywhere, even in the most unambigous places.

Some children speak a foreign language with no training and it leaves them at an early age. If it was spirit possession or just a bond with other souls would the child lose those memories at such an early age.

-That is IF they have not heard or learned some words of that language, and had forgotten it, cryptomnesia. Plus, even if they hadn't, exactly how is this evidence of reincarnation? If it is from their so called past life, then WHY would it leave them at an early age instead of staying with them? It is not a bond with other souls, it is part of the soul energy of one who has lived, and their part of their soul energy has manifested along with other energies, to form a NEW life. Not a used one.

I suspect that Goforth and Gray already had a belief that reincarnation does not exist before they did their research or wrote their book.

-As long as you understand that you could be wrong, simply because you suspect it does not make it true. Also, the same could be said for your sources. I suspect that the vast majority of reincarnational proponents had a pre-existing belief in it or at least were sympathetic to it.

The evidence for me at least is that more data exists that supports reincarnation than against it.

-The data that you refer to does not conclusively support reincarnation...unless you want it to, which you obviously do. There is just as much data against it, maybe even more. Plus you seem to overlook that reincarnation and karma when questioned substantially questioned, fall apart. The fact that some people, including spirits, have morphed it completely into something that it never was, does not make it true.

Also I disagree a child can learn the same lessons in other dimensions.

-You neglected to state facts as to why. And, what is it about these infernal "lessons"? Why is it necessary to "learn" every conceivable possible "lesson" in every conceivable possible situation on this earth? Are these other dimensions not as "hard"? Why not? Where is the proof of that? Your tendency to blindly believe all of this is spectacular.

Harsh physical life gives the greatest opportunity for soul development. Do they have cows that need milked on the other side and farm chores? I think not.

-What if they do worse because of harsh physical life? What happens then? Is it necessary for everyone to milk cows and do farm chores to obtain some kind of knowledge? Why? Must everyone mine coal in order to get the experience of it? Must everyone be a brain surgeon?

Oh yeah, and I still think the best argument for reincarnation (in the Buddhist, non-theistic sense here) is that some kids are born wise, others- well, let's just say you can't fix stupid.

-Oh certainly, the perceived intelligence of a child REQUIRES a metaphysical explanation...no other explanation is plausible.

This statement does not reflect my experiences with hypnotism

-Well, I personally know a medium of 20 years, who was on the fence, went for hypnosis and came away totally unconvinced. She now rejects it as nonsense and also does not support reincarnation.

The purported response from a spirit was: “yes; we all have many such existences. Those that maintain the contrary wish to keep you in the same ignorance in which they are themselves”.

-Well, arrogance definitely seems to be a common trait of spirits promoting fantasies like reincarnation. It's not surprising really, because so many theosophists are just as arrogant about it when they speak with other people. They seem to consider themselves an "elite" group who has secret wisdom. No wonder the spirits are the same.

“I think it is the assault to our ego that prevents many from accepting the idea of reincarnation” .Well stated.

-Why is it well stated? Because you agree with it? Perhaps it is the assault to your ego that prevents you from accepting that it is not a reality. This is common to proponents of reincarnation, they generally seem to feel that they are "wise beyond their years" and have gained secret wisdom known only to "advanced" beings. They often have a very high opinion of themselves, which is usually initially shrouded by a false sense of "advanced compassion". But this mask usually falls off the minute they are critically questioned about the absurdities their theosophy is based upon.

[Louise]

Ross, well said! :)

[william]

“That is an assumption on your part, William;”

You may consider it an assumption but after 19 years into seeking into these mysteries of life, with much help from the other side, and not accepting others beliefs as all truths there is much personal, anecdotal, and qualitative evidence to support my statement about the journey of the soul.

“I'm not sure what would differentiate being a child of the infinite from being an expression of it. Same thing to me.”

World of difference. One is based in a belief in being separate from Infinite and the other experiences itself as an expression of Infinite. This is why you keep stating it is an assumption on my part. Until we see this difference we may be unable to see with clarity the evolution of consciousness process and of course have knowledge of the journey of the soul as an evolution of consciousness process of discoveries and realizations.

“What is there to be "discovered"?”

What is to be discovered? For one: the difference between looking at our reality as children of the Infinite or as expressions of the Infinite: this is a major discovery or realization that few in the world ever think about as an aspect of their soul’s journey. Yet.

One is based in a self-confirmatory mode of being in this world and the other is a knowing we are here to express the infinite dynamic potential of Infinite Awareness. A belief in being a child is a belief of being separate from Infinite; whereas knowledge of being an expression within the mind of Infinite we see we are not separate but an “distinguishable” manifestation or expression of Infinite that most call God.

We would not be indistinguishable from Infinite Awareness without our unawareness.

If we believe we are children of the Infinite then we fail to understand the very concept of infinite. I.e. all and all; meaning no other. Nothing can exist outside of infinite. If we don’t see the difference between being expressions and children we are continuing to make God in our image or as mark twain stated: God made man in his image then man returned the favor.

Children are perceived to have personal minds but if we see with clarity we are expressions of Infinite and we do not have personal minds but our minds are within Infinite Mind it changes our mode of being in the world. I.e. to harm others is to harm self.

“In some way, I think wanting to have that answer is an act of ego cowardice and a fatal weakness; like a mortal sin.”

Wanting and not wanting are two of the greatest causes of suffering and both based in ignorance. Likewise mortal sin has its origin in ignorance. You as a soul have every right not to seek into these mysteries at least for as long as you desire. But there is a price for our continued ignorance; it is called suffering as the Buddha so correctly realized. Twenty five hundred years ago the Buddha realized that the origin of our suffering is ignorance “unawareness” but few in the world know about his realization. Very few, including most Buddhist monks as they often confuse symptoms with origins.

Seeking is not a wanting but an inner longing for greater awareness. Of course one can seek for intellectual motives then there will be little if any advancement in love and compassion in one’s life. Look at all the seeking and blogging occurring on this website about NDE’s is that an act of ego cowardice and a mortal sin? I think not.

[william]

“Oh yeah, and I still think the best argument for reincarnation (in the Buddhist, non-theistic sense here) is that some kids are born wise, others- well, let's just say you can't fix stupid.”

Calling a child stupid is ignorance defined. Please tell me you are not a teacher of children that would be a terrible thing for humanity. Now here is the interesting aspect of the ignorance involved in calling or even referring to any child as stupid. That ignorance which is only one’s unawareness has it origin in one’s original and therefore eternal innocence.

Dialog on reincarnation in the western mind can get every emotional in another culture it is accepted as a fact of life. The ego will scream loudly and deny the idea of reincarnation even other cultures and religions use it as a fear factor it is so emotional.

-“Well, I personally know a medium of 20 years, who was on the fence, went for hypnosis and came away totally unconvinced. She now rejects it as nonsense and also does not support reincarnation.”

One data point surely you can see the fallacy of such a statement. Anecdotal and one data point of evidence. And we wonder why skeptics become ultra skeptics.

Statistically one data point of evidence is almost always worthless and horribly misleading unless of course it is that one discovered white crow. :-)

[Louise]

"I suspect that Goforth and Gray already had a belief that reincarnation does not exist before they did their research or wrote their book. Personally when I found that reincarnation was a probable reality it did not make my day or month or year."

Gray was writing from across the veil, so his words are just as valid, as a resident there, as those who speak from there saying it does exist. I've ordered a copy of The Risen, it sounds interesting.

Oh, the book I mentioned a few posts back is The Case Against Reincarnation by James Webster. August Goforth has reviewed it on Amazon.

[Zerdini]

Louise - you will find that William has very fixed views resulting from his 19(!!) years of research and study.

He constanrly rehashes the same old stuff and is unwilling to consider other points of view unless they confirm what he believes.

[Erich]

"I don't see why the idea of the reality and importance of our personalities - the term "ego" is so dismissive - is put down as something lesser or worthless. On the one hand it's "learn to live in the moment" and on the other "this life is nothing, you are just pretend"."

Because, for most people, the ego is a tyrant that prohibits the awareness of anything outside the constructs it creates based on its very narrow and very temporal existance. It is antithetical to freedom of the mind and soul.

"On the one hand it's "learn to live in the moment" and on the other "this life is nothing, you are just pretend"."

I don't really understand what you are trying to communicate. Assuming that you are addressing me, if you are saying that I am saying that the ego - our personalities - are just pretend, then you are largley understanding me.

I would say that our personalities are mostly just pretend. For most people it is only tiny bit of what lies deeper in the spirit that is reflected in the ego. I am sorry that doesn't sit well with you. This is why, "I think it is the assault to our ego that prevents many from accepting the idea of reincarnation” is a good statement. You seem to be offended by what I am saying for that very reason.

Imagine yourself born and raised in radically different times and environments; everything from a princess living in oppulence to a slave working the cotton fields. Imagine all of the different experiences you would have and the impact of those experiences on your personality.

Now, how can you honestly say that the personality you have is anything other than a fleeting and largely artificial construct based on those experiences? Yet, there is something that remains constant. That is the part that is real and that is of interest to me.

[Erich]

I should add that William, with his Buddhist dogma, should be in agreement with me here concerning the ego, its false nature and its negative influence.

The reason the a person slips from the light of reality and subsequently experiences various bardo worlds after death is that he/she is bound to and lost in the thought forms constructed by the ego.

I am not a Buddhist, but I do agree with this aspect of the teachings. I would go further to say - and I think most Buddhists would approve - that even in physical life the ego is a false construct that blinds and binds us in the same way it does after death.

I do think that amount of 'ego' is necessary for life on earth, but I think it should be kept clean and neat and healthy and kept in its proper place.

The way I see it, the ego is the horse and rider is the soul. If you let your horse run away with you, you are in trouble; that or you are left just sitting there while the horse grazes. Also, you can have different horses for different jobs. When a horse comes up lame or dies, you get a new one to ride.

[Zerdini]

When a horse comes up lame or dies, you get a new one to ride.

"Hi-yo, Silver, away!"