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"I don't think we'll ever know if the NDE really happened when she truly flatlined or not. Regardless though it's a pretty good case."

agreed.

She also.. "Saw the body jump,"(due to two shocks) just before she got 'back in.' And heard Hotel California being played. Spetzler said this was also impossible.
No one seems to want to deal with this part of her recollections. That's ok, though.

“I believe there are some odds and ends that need tying up on this case, both for skeptics and nests of believers. And it needs someone better qualified than me.”

Einstein stated something very profound as it applies to our theories of what happened or did not happened. “Our theories determine what we shall observe in our experiments”

One could also state our beliefs highly determine what we shall observe in our experiences.

One must try very hard not to be a believer or a nonbeliever. This is the role of doubt. Doubt like fear has a purpose in the initial stages of the evolutionary process of the soul.

We could also state that our paradigms determine almost entirely what evidence we will let enter into our consciousness. NDE’s are only one aspect of evidence that provides further proof of the reality of life after this life. With an operational definition of proof being the following synonyms: evidence, testimony, verification, confirmation, corroboration, and substantiation.

Thanks for the mention, William. At least somebody is not bored to death.
Reynolds remembers the beginning( her skull being opened)and remembers the end, the 'shocks'(accompanied by the Eagles) to bring her back to life.
I can quite understand how Sabom believes the middle bit of her NDE occured during the flatline when she said it did.

We as humans think of death as something that is absolute, you are either dead or not dead, but that may not be exactly what the reality is. The funny thing about being dead is that it doesn't seem to be an "all or nothing" experience. It seems to proceed in stages, and perhaps because time and space aren't quite real, it may not proceed at exactly the same pace for everyone.

In some primitive tribes they have different words for being dead, with the last word meaning "utterly and completely dead", meaning they weren't coming back. You could have some sickness and be on your way out, but if by some miracle, or spiritual intervention, either by a Shaman or a Witchdoctor, you could be brought back from the brink of death. I've read NDE's of people who actually woke up in the morgue, just as the mortician was fixing to drain out their blood and pump them full of embalming fluid.

If you are only at the very first stages of death it may be possible to be stopped at some in-between state, waiting for the experience to naturally progress to the next stage, but if there is someone beating on your chest, pumping air into your lungs, whatever, you might be stopped in some kind of limbo or purgatory waiting for the next part of the experience to begin.

I'm sure that when we are utterly and completely dead the soul will completely abandon the body and be able to see and experience everything. As long as it is in some kind of limbo state between life and death, maybe it just waits there to see what is going to happen. After all, it's not like there is any rush or anything. We always have eternity for things to progress the way they are supposed to.

People have spiritual experiences in all stages of life and "death"; and these experiences may be equally valid at all stages; because after all, the distinction between "life and death" is an artificial one and my not exist at all. I recall one woman telling her daughter that dying is as easy as walking through a doorway.

"Boy, 3, tells how he 'saw grandmother in Heaven' before being brought back from the dead after falling into pond"

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267061/Clinically-dead-boy-saw-grandmother-Heaven.html

Just had a look at that little boy's story. Really nice.
Some of the comments on the Daily Mail website however, are incredibly ignorant and bigoted.
UNBELIEVABLY, the CO 2 nonsense is now getting a foothold. For crying out loud.

“UNBELIEVABLY, the CO 2 nonsense is now getting a foothold. For crying out loud.”

Try to look at this from the mind of a materialist. Just one paranormal event they cannot explain crashes not only their cherished beliefs but also their materialist paradigm and that is mentality painful and extremely embarrassing to them.

Atheists tend to worship at the altar of their intellect. Most even believe they are the only ones on this earth that have reasoning abilities. I.e. the reason project by Sam Harris.

Embarrassment is one of our most mentality painful experiences we have to go though in life. We have all had them and we tend to keep them to ourselves even among our friends. They are one of our greatest learning opportunities but oh so often mentality painful to experience.

It usually takes a significant emotional experience such as an NDE for an atheist to admit that their cherished belief that no after life exists was wrong.

It usually takes a significant emotional experience such as an NDE for an atheist to admit that their cherished belief that no after life exists was wrong.

...or an exceptional piece of survival evidence from a loved one!

because after all, the distinction between "life and death" is an artificial one and my not exist at all.

Life is continuous - it's only the physical body that 'dies'.

I'm not surprised the comments that just ridiculed people for their beliefs (i.e. the ones that make references to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy) are the ones that have been rated the lowest.

I've come to the conclusion now it's not what skeptics believe that gets to me but rather the negative attitudes that many of them have. Take note the Skeptiko forums, many of the skeptics get the same message across as the jerk ones. However, since they can deliver the message without being rude, one is more open to them and is less likely to hop onto the defensive.

I'm now convinced if the skeptics were to drop the negative attitude, a bridge might be created between them and parapsychologists.

“I'm now convinced if the skeptics were to drop the negative attitude, a bridge might be created between them and parapsychologists.”

The materialist paradigm is as rigid as the religious paradigm. That negative attitude is based in protecting one’s doubt, which can make one very defensive and they can become very tunnel versioned.

I don’t see any bridge in the near future. Maybe that veil is there for a reason between their world and ours. But I do think in time as we progress the veil will become less and communication between this world and theirs will prevail.

As a species I am not sure we are ready to remove that veil. Consciousness is the one aspect of reality that binds us all together.

"Maybe that veil is there for a reason between their world and ours." - william
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The answer is simple. We are here to experience separation and the death of someone we love is the ultimate lesson in separation. It's in the "not knowing" that we feel the most emotion. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. Losing somebody we love to death is the most emotional experience we can have. If we knew absolutely for certain that one day we were going to be reunited forever with the loved ones we had lost death would lose some of it's power over us and it would cease to be the ultimate lesson in separation. The soul can't learn what it means and how it feels to be separate in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness due to it's holographic nature so the soul has to come here to the Earth and spend some time here to learn what it means and how it feels to be separate.

If we knew absolutely for certain that one day we were going to be reunited forever with the loved ones we had lost death would lose some of it's power over us and it would cease to be the ultimate lesson in separation.

That is the message of Spiritualism...we WILL be reunited with our loved ones...and that is what evidence of survival demonstrates.

Those who have had the evidence know beyond a doubt that survival and reunion is a fact.

art we dont need to learn to feel separate we feel separate from this oneness most call god.

this is the true illusion not our experiences or time but our believing we are separate minds with personal mind power. or whatever.

we are not children like the religious teach but expressions of the one mind.

we feel separate from our source even in these other lower soul dimenisions from our source.

I think the day will come art that that veil be less and less and more people can communicate with their loved ones who have crossed over.

that kind of puts a barrier to your ideas about being here to know how it feels to be separate.

from my point of view we are here because our source of creation is here and it is called nature. or not.

"I've come to the conclusion now it's not what skeptics believe that gets to me but rather the negative attitudes that many of them have."

Aftrbrnr, couldn't agree more!

It usually takes a significant emotional experience such as an NDE for an atheist to admit that their cherished belief that no after life exists was wrong.

Well prominent atheist AJ Ayer couldn't quite admit his cherished beliefs were wrong, and recently Terry Pratchett had a strange OBE-type experience which he rationalised in a Dawkinsian manner as a recognition of the beauty of evolution etc.

I'm merely curious about NDE's, rather than a "believer", but I do think that the urge to explain them away at all costs is driven by a strange kind of existential panic, rather than rational thought.

One of the most interesting "confirmations" of an afterlife that I've seen was a BBC documentary a few years ago that tracked some of the remaining WWI veterans. One of them said that he wasn't afraid of death, because every time he saw someone die on the front, their last words were always the same - a cry of recognition as they saw their mother approaching to take them "home".

You correct, IR,
That veteran was Harry Patch, the last Tommy(now deceased)

He came upon a fellow soldier lying mortally wounded with his guts hanging out. They were about to shoot him to put him out of his misery, when he suddenly exclaimed, "Mother !"
Patch said it wasn't a cry of despair but a surprised optimistic shout of recognition.

"That is the message of Spiritualism...we WILL be reunited with our loved ones...and that is what evidence of survival demonstrates. Those who have had the evidence know beyond a doubt that survival and reunion is a fact." - zerdini
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I attend a fundamentalist Church of Christ with my wife's family. I have been married for 36 years so this is a long term assessment. What I have noticed is that even people who claim to be Christian believers are afraid of dying. Even their prayers reflect a basic disbelief in Heaven and life after death. When someone is sick and dying and church is praying for them they ask that the person be healed and returned to their families. Nevermind that supposedly is this grand and wonderful place where we live in eternal bliss. It's like they don't really believe what they preach. I find it very strange.

There is also a fairly large contingent of "materialist atheists" who come right out and profess a basic disbelief; and the media is obviously biased toward non-belief in an afterlife. Even when it's obvious that someone has been touched by the divine there is always an underlying tone of disbelief. For instance the recent story about the little 3 year old boy who died and talked to his dead great grandmother, at the bottom of the story they made reference to the CO2 phenomena like that explains away how a little boy would see his deceased great grandmother? It was ridiculous and doesn't begin to explain what happens in an NDE yet the ignorant public buy into that explanation and since it sounds "scientific" that it must be true.

My point is that "yes" there are some who have a high degree of confidence in life after death, and even some near death experiencers who really know - from experience - that we can't die - the large majority of people are agnostic and don't really "know" absolutely 100% for certain that we survive the death of our physical bodies. They might pay it lip service, but when someone they love dies, they mourn like they will never see their loved ones ever again.

You are absolutely right Art. My parents have been in the Spirit World for 32 and 26 years respectively and have frequently made their presence known.

My father (who was a sceptic) returned three days after his funeral and said "Thank you for what you said at my funeral".

As my parents were not particularly religious I took both their funeral services myself.

“a cry of recognition as they saw their mother approaching to take them "home".”

I have told this story before on this blog but for those new to this blog I will repeat it. My wife was with her brother when he passed several years ago and he was fighting desperately for his life and became very upset when my wife told him to go to the light.

When my wife left our home for the trip to California to be with her brother as she was leaving I told her that if he starts looking around the room ask him what he sees. Well indeed the second day she was with him and her sisters (witnesses) he began to look around the room so my wife asked him what he was looking at. Something physical moved in the room all on its own and made a loud thud.

Then he looked to the other side of the room and my wife asked him if it was their dad who had passed years earlier. Again something moved on that side of the room and made a huge noise as is was rather large object. Then one of the sisters yelled dad if that is you quit doing that you are scaring us. Nothing moved in the room after that plea.

Another sister then came into the room and she had not seen these objects moving on their own. She looked into his eyes and said he looks so peaceful now. He managed in a very low voice to tell each sister that he loved them then he passed. He crossed over ten years to the day that his dad had passed and they were very close in this life, as he never left home. She called me right after this occurred and kept stating you wont believe this you wont believe what just happened. I stated I think I will tell me what happened.

My point it appears that his dad came to him to assure him it was ok to go to the light and he need not fight any longer for his physical life. This story is in a book with about 40 other bedside visitation stories and this book is entitled visits from heaven that came out last December.

One of the stories in that book is very interesting as a woman named Nancy had an OBE while giving a eulogy while visiting several dimensions and came back with some pretty profound knowledge about life that she has written about in her own book. What is interesting is her human body continued to give the eulogy while she was traveling to these other dimensions and receiving knowledge from an advanced spirit.

A dialog on this mysterious phenomenon that Nancy had would be most interesting to me at least.

Hi Art
It occurs to me that what you are referring to may be an example of the difference between faith and knowledge.

The churchgoers may be sincere in their beliefs however I wonder whether that is enough for some when faced with the reality of their own mortality as opposed to the concept.

It does not surprise me that, for some, their beliefs which are perhaps based on the teachings of religious leaders or books like the Bible, coupled with very little, if any, practical experience of what they believe and without even a cursory understanding of some of the phenomena discussed here, are not enough to sustain some at such a difficult time.

I'd rather have knowledge over religious faith anytime.

Some people in the Church seemed surprised when I tell them that I am looking forward to dying and seeing what is in that Light. I've got a lot of aches and pains from arthritis and am sort of looking forward to not hurting anymore. Since starting to study life after death stuff around the year 2000 I've lost a good bit of my fear of death. I've had a few mystical experiences of my own now, nothing mind boggling, but still I've had a few little paranormal experiences that were fun and interesting and not easily explained away. I like when they happen. I've had several precognitive dreams that were especially interesting to me and I really enjoyed when they happened. What is funny is that I found it difficult to share the experiences. When this stuff happens it's almost like it was meant for me and other people can't really share in the experience. It is like it has to happen to them before they can really grasp the significance of it.

Good post, Art. I wouldn't be surprised if the hellfire element of much fundamentalist religion plays its part in people's fear of death. They may talk as if they're sure they're "saved" but underneath there might be that niggling fear of rejection by a cruel, very Old Testament deity. I don't know if this applies to your wife's church, but it's what I've seen enough of.

It always interests me to hear how this sor of thing affected my other half. He was a devout Catholic (he crossed over in 1643) and had more than his share of hellfire preaching thrown at him; it left him with a hyperactive conscience and as much fear as love of God. But he's described the moment of crossing over and leaving those fears behind - no meeting with Christ, but his father was there to welcome him. He says it was like waking up, that's the best he can describe it, and all the fear was gone: he'd come home. Such joy and relief - I can feel the echo of it when he reminisces about it.

Me, I can't wait to get there!

I'm not in a hurry to die. The way I see it, at the moment I can talk to and be with pretty much anyone who is important to me... Mom, Dad, Grandma, my best friend. When I die, I won't be able to communicate with my living friends and family anymore. That would suck.

I get homesick for the NDE place, but I'm glad I still get to hang out with the people here.

I'll miss that too - though there's every chance most of the people I love here will already be there when I go. But for me, it's like homesickness. That's my Home with a capital H over there, the person I love more than anyone is there, and I just so want to go home!

"They may talk as if they're sure they're "saved" but underneath there might be that niggling fear of rejection by a cruel, very Old Testament deity. I don't know if this applies to your wife's church, but it's what I've seen enough of." - Louise
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Unfortuneately yes it does. They believe in Hell and Satan so it comes up from time to time. But there is good stuff about the Church that I enjoy too like the singing, socializing, church dinners, etc. and they are mostly good people, although perhaps a bit ignorant and misguided. I don't agree with their attitude or beliefs about gays and lesbians and I came right out and told the preacher that one of my best friends is gay. In fact I've also talked to the preacher about my endless fascination with near death experiences, death bed visions, and the holographic universe theory. He is actually quite nice about that. In fact a few Sundays ago during his sermon he said something to the effect of "I think this is the place of separation." There are a bunch of verses in the New Testament that have a very "holographic" flavor so it's fun now when he hits on them he'll say something like "yes, I know I was talking about the holographic universe." There is another kid in our church that has read The Holographic Universe and has talked to him so he understands the concept pretty well, and the New Testament has a very holographic flavor to it so I enjoy that part of church!

A man died and went to Heaven. At the Pearly Gates, he was met by an angel whose job it was to take him on a tour.

While they were walking through Heaven, the man was surprised to see Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and representatives from all of the world's religions.

He also noticed that there was a wall in a remote corner of Heaven. The wall was so high that he couldn't see its top.

When the tour was over, he asked the angel, "What's behind that wall in the corner?"

The angel replied, "That's where the Christians are. They think they're the only people up here."

Louise- your other half passed over in 1643 - what do you mean?

Hi, Paul,

I mean my soulmate. He left this earthly life in 1643. Soulmates, as he and I use the term, aren't people who pass through your life for whatever reason, but are THE one, the matching piece of the jigsaw, or as my man puts it, the one leaf on the tree that is identical to you. (We use it more like the popular usage, actually.) He knew when the soul that matched him - me - came into being. What he didn't know was if we would in fact be together in Spirit, for there's no predestination and most certainly no influencing by anyone there. All he could do was wait. He was there when I was born, if only to see whether I would be male or female!

Well, his waiting paid off, for I fell for him decades ago. We've been in contact for three years now, and I am happier than I've ever been. (No, neither of us believes in reincarnation; connected lives, as in connected souls, yes; but not the same soul getting recycled.)

Hey, William, I remember Dave Allen telling that joke, only with him it was the Catholics who were behind the wall! :D

Thanks Louise. Dave Allen was a great loss.

“Hey, William, I remember Dave Allen telling that joke, only with him it was the Catholics who were behind the wall! :D”

I know you can plug in your favorite or not so favorite religion. The first time I heard this story it was Saint Paul taking everyone on a tour and it was the Presbyterians on the other side of the wall. This version was for art as I had just read this version on another blog.

It does appear that like attracts like on the other side so maybe the Buddhists hang out with Buddhist and the Hindus with Hindus, Mormons with Mormons and atheists with atheists and so forth.

I just found a book in my library I did not even know I had on the Bahai religion. Their history was pretty interesting to read. Very close to what the enlightened Hindus teach except for the no reincarnation aspect of their religion.

Zerdini:

"My parents have been in the Spirit World for 32 and 26 years respectively and have frequently made their presence known.

My father (who was a sceptic) returned three days after his funeral and said "Thank you for what you said at my funeral"."


After-death visitations seem to be common and often convincing to the experiencers. One problem I have with these as a true indicator of LAD is the fact that virtually none of the after-death code agreements have ever resulted in correct communication of the secret code. How is this to be rationalized with the apparent post-mortem visitations?

Hi Magnan

You say 'virtually none' - do you mean some codes have been communicated? If one accepts that at least some codes have been given then it occurs to me that for some people that would be enough. If you are saying 'none' have then I can see why you would be concerned. I think many "code" words, or other specific pieces of information have been given to identify people positively through mediums but you may mean under some form of controlled test.

I guess there could be a number of reasons why codes might not be communicated, off the top of my head.. person overcome with emotion at contact; interference with thought processes due to different state of existence; different priorities following death; some mechanism preventing such information being given; interference by medium's thoughts; poor mediumship;and of course the possibility that we do not survive and the whole process is a charade.

I sometimes forget or doubt my pin code which is 4 digits and which I use everyday.Maybe there are quite a few people like me lol.


magnan: One problem I have with these as a true indicator of LAD is the fact that virtually none of the after-death code agreements have ever resulted in correct communication of the secret code. How is this to be rationalized with the apparent post-mortem visitations?

I can only speak for myself. I never arranged any secret codes with anyone. I recognised the communicators by their voices, mannerisms, personality and memory.

“One problem I have with these as a true indicator of LAD is the fact that virtually none of the after-death code agreements have ever resulted in correct communication of the secret code”

I don’t believe this is a correct statement. Houdini’s wife claimed her husband did come back through a well known medium and reveal the very complex secret code they had set up but only after she had no success with several other mediums. Of course the medium might have been reading her mind, which I personally doubt. But even reading her mind suggests there is more to this world than meets the eye.

I recently talked to a person that 3 days after his wife passed a light bulb exploded in three different locations. One in his home, one in a son’s home, and the third one in the other sons home. Here is the interesting part they appeared to have exploded within the same hour maybe at the same time but they cannot prove the exact time for sure.

I can't do the codes thing (even if it had occurred to me) with my other half, since our earthly lives didn't coincide. But he's said some things via mediums that they couldn't have guessed - like recently, saying he liked my original name and giving its first two letters. The medium (who I'd never seen before, and was only seeing on the spur of the moment) couldn't have known/guessed either that I'd changed my name or what the first two letters of the previous one were. That's pretty good evidence in my view ... that, or she was mind reading, which is pretty amazing itself!

I liked the part where one of his friends said that Ayer was much nicer after he'd died.

I just read the Sam Parnia article that MP mentions on this thread. It is very good. As to Michael Sabom, I will comment on him on the newest thread (topic - the snake in the garden), since Sabom is mentioned in it.

Julio

I read somewhere, that if the mind were truly separate from the brain, during general anethesia, it would be impossible to make someone's consciousness inactive. Because, most of the time, people remember nothing under GA, this is being used to dispute the idea of dualism. Does anyone have any comments on this?

A lot of anesthetics cause amnesia. Also some recreational drugs can cause amnesia, including alcohol. This may also help explain why it is that such a small percentage of people have or at least remember having NDEs.

Paul: "I guess there could be a number of reasons why codes might not be communicated, off the top of my head.. person overcome with emotion at contact; interference with thought processes due to different state of existence; different priorities following death; some mechanism preventing such information being given; interference by medium's thoughts; poor mediumship;and of course the possibility that we do not survive and the whole process is a charade."

Most of the above reasons strike me as clever rationalizations, though that is from the point of view of someone looking for the minimum hypothesis. I have not read about any successful transmissions of codes except the Houdini one, so it seems to be extremely rare. Even the Houdini case is very controversial since a number of skeptics have claimed fraud. One point would be that mental mediumship is claimed by some skeptics to be reading the sitter's mind, which if true would result in success in the code agreements. So the medium's reading the sitter's mind theory is unlikely, or the codes or messages would regularly seem to come through from the discarnate personality.

LOL. Clever rationalizations, huh? How 'bout rational explination for the occurences? Thanks for the oh-so-subtle opion-based subjective rhetoric.

There are many, many, many instances of contact between the dead and the living, days or week safter their passing. My reading on After Death Commuication, a phenomena neglected recently, provides a significant amount of experiences to inform on the survival hypothesis.

After Death Communication, several good authors have done field research. Very interesting.

Thanks Art! I appreciate your taking the time to comment. I am not as knowledgeable or well read on these subjects as most of the people here and respect all of your opinions and theories.

Me neither, Janine - I feel out of my depth, but in a good way, lol.

Your question about GA and the mind made me wonder if it's got anything to do with expectation - we expect to be 'out' under anaesthetic. Aside from that, I'd guess that it's much the same as simply being asleep anyway. The mind (or soul?) might flit while the body sleeps, but we don't necessarily remember anything. I know I'd want to clear out while I was being operated on!

Some souls might be more attached to the body than others also? We are all so different in so many other ways I don't see why not in that respect? It seems that some folks can do or have "out of body" experiences very easily while others never have them. I do see it as a great kindness though that when many people do have NDEs they sometimes start even before the actual accident occurs. It's like the soul exits the body even in anticipation of death; like the soul isn't wanting or shouldn't experience it. This reminds me of Allan Pring's NDE (on youtube.com) where he said he came back to tell his wife "We can't die. It is impossible to die." Perhaps it's the continuity of the experience that is so important. Sort of like a song or a musical score. Many people who claim to have had NDEs say that it happens instantly, like one second you are here and the next second you are there. I think that may be important and be that way for a reason. So you don't lose your sense of being you, your identity. Continuity from one life to another. There is another NDE on youtube of a lawyer named Chris Markey where he said that the doctor told him to cough and "wham!" he was on the other side. I think that is so cool. If you haven't watched Chris Markey's NDE on youtube you really should because it is so cool. It is in two parts. 1 & 2.

This was paradise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UlsbfU7U_8

"Thanks Art! I appreciate your taking the time to comment. I am not as knowledgeable or well read on these subjects as most of the people here and respect all of your opinions and theories." - Janine
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Why thank you Janine! I have been studying life after death stuff now for right at ten years, since around the year 2000. One of my favorite subjects is or are death bed visions. I find them endlessly fascinating. Last year I read the book "The Art of Dying" by Dr. Peter Fenwick, twice! I thought it was one of the best "life after death" books I've ever read. I've got my own little collection of life after death books that I collect. The ones that I really like I keep and the ones I buy that I'm not quite as impressed with I trade back in to a local used book store. I have also bought quite a few books from Amazon.com. I recently suggested to an atheist friend of mine that he read "Life After Life" by Dr. Raymond Moody. I'd fall over if he really read it!

I just want to take this opportunity to say that I think it's okay for us to have different beliefs. I don't think it's necessary for every one to believe the same thing. I don't think it matters. Maybe "being different" is built in and part of the plan? In fact perhaps it is that way for a reason.

I agree, Art - and I think Spirit is a whole lot more flexible as an environment than we can imagine.

It's like the old "variety is the spice of life" saying, in a way. When we're not afraid of difference, think how much interest it'll add to our eternal lives, and how much exploring and learning there'll be to do! (Which, it occurs to me, may be utterly different from how you think of Spirit - LOL so there's a difference right now!)

HI magnan

I wasn't suggesting the potential reasons I offered were the actual reasons for failure.

As far as I can see they are rationalisations only in the sense that they could well be explanations but I don't know whether or not they are. If that is a rationalisation then wouldn't almost any potential explanation offered for phenomena which are not provable be a rationalisation?

Also, rationalisation may imply that I have a pre-supposition about the phenomena under consideration and that I am keen to adopt an explanation which fits my model. For the avoidance of doubt; this isn't the case. You would have to take my word for that though.:)

As an aside, there are many examples of problems in purported communication which are explained by the communicator. Whether or not one accepts the explanation is a personal decision I think.

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