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“The problem is that this test would put an end in the controversy.”

What planet do you live on one test even a series of test will not put an end to this controversy. These cherished beliefs in the realm of materialism, scientism, religious, and spiritualism are not going to succumb to any test even a series of tests. This is the role of experience but even experience can be misleading.

I have known people that believe anything a medium tells them even if they find that medium at the local mall; not that a local mall may not have a medium of advanced abilities in mediumship abilities.

Hi, Paul

I cannot see how, according to Vitor,how they are above suspicion and Flint is not,

Because they NEVER "chicken out". Flint "chicken out".

especially since Flint does not appear to have been tainted with any suggestions of fraud levelled by those who have investigated him.

Those who have investigated him could not use a infra red cam, or they have their equipament destroyed. :-)

I do think Zerdini's comments illustrate the inconsistency in Vitor's comments about Flint.

You can think whatever you want.

Hi, William

What planet do you live on one test even a series of test will not put an end to this controversy.

Ok. Let's say we would put the controversy in another level :-)

There was a passage in Moby Dick that I always found strange and intriguing and related to OBE's in a manner, from Chapter Four:

"At last I must have fallen into a troubled nightmare of a doze; and slowly waking from it- half steeped in dreams- I opened my eyes, and the before sunlit room was now wrapped in outer darkness. Instantly I felt a shock running through all my frame; nothing was to be seen, and nothing was to be heard; but a supernatural hand seemed placed in mine. My arm hung over the counterpane, and the nameless, unimaginable, silent form or phantom, to which the hand belonged, seemed closely seated by my bed-side. For what seemed ages piled on ages, I lay there, frozen with the most awful fears, not daring to drag away my hand; yet ever thinking that if I could but stir it one single inch, the horrid spell would be broken. I knew not how this consciousness at last glided away from me; but waking in the morning, I shudderingly remembered it all, and for days and weeks and months afterwards I lost myself in confounding attempts to explain the mystery. Nay, to this very hour, I often puzzle myself with it."

I don't believe it comes up again in the book and I've done a little research and have never found any further explanation of what this story was about.

That's an interesting excerpt, Christian. Maybe it's a description of sleep paralysis?

Michael,

When I first moved to Hawaii, a day was incomplete without a swim in the ocean. That lasted for perhaps a year. By the second year, I was going to the beach once a week and by the third year once a month. Now, after some 35 years here and living only a mile from a beach once rated by Dr. Beach as the best in the world, I get down there about once a year, if that. So perhaps the lure of the ocean is just an illusion.

Michael P: Vitor doesn't think all mediums are frauds. He already said he regards Piper and Osborne Leonard as above suspicion.

He gave a list of mediums (including Leslie Flint) who refused to participate in tests and implied they were all frauds.

Although I personally don't think Mrs Piper was a fraud the allegations by Martin Gardner were not addressed by Vitor who regarded her as 'above supicion'

That is inconsistent with his remarks regarding other mediums.

Zerdini,

Although I personally don't think Mrs Piper was a fraud the allegations by Martin Gardner were not addressed by Vitor who regarded her as 'above supicion'

Michael Prescott already had adressed this issue, so I thought it was not necessary to say anything more. Martin Gardner did a very poor work. See here:

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/08/how-martin-gard.html

So, again: Piper and Osborne were authentic. Flint was a fraud. That's what I think.

My list:

a) Real mediums or psychics:

Piper, Osborne, Robert Rollans, Hella Hammid, George McMullen, Sean Harribance, Stefan Ossowieski, Ingo Swann, Joseph W. McMoneagle, Malcom Bessent, Pavel Stepanek, Alan Vaughan

b) Mediums or psychics which I am in doubt:

Home, Palladino, Schneider's brothers

C) Mediums or psychics which I think are frauds:

Flint, Nina Kulagina, Florence Cook, Chico Xavier, Mirabelli, Estelle Roberts...


Where are the allegations of fraud against Flint? Apart from Vitor.

West did an allegation of fraud against Flint whe he said:

"This result lends strong support to the arguments of those persons who contend that the claims of contemporary physical mediums and their supporters are founded upon fraud and malobservation"

If the various accounts of the afterlife were purely the product of fantasy, one might reasonably expect some of those fantasies to include bananas or hot pants. As far as I can tell, none of them do. Perhaps this argues that there is an underlying reality to these reports.
Or perhaps such ruminations are as silly as they sound.

I think I like Eileen Garrett. I've read a couple of books about her and I think she was the real deal. I am also a huge George Anderson fan. I think he is also the real deal. I have seen George Anderson work on a few TV shows and he is impressive. I have also read several books about George Anderson and he seems to be a decent and admirable human being. And I must admit that I like John Edward also. John Edward is charismatic, fun, entertaining, humorous, visually appealing, and he also seems to have some real psychic Medium abilities.

Regarding Vitor's List:

In group A only Mrs Piper and Mrs Leonard were mediums - the others are psychics. There is a big difference between the two. If Vitor doesn't know the difference there is nothing to discuss.

Group B were mediums. Palladino admitted she would cheat if given the chance.

Out of group C Nina Kulagins is a psychic not a medium.

Because Vitor thinks certain mediums are frauds let him supply the evidence not scurrilous accusations. He knows he can't because he has no personal experience of any of them. It's all based on supposition because they refused to take part in tests by people who were not qualified to comment on mediumship.

West did an allegation of fraud against Flint whe he said:

"This result lends strong support to the arguments of those persons who contend that the claims of contemporary physical mediums and their supporters are founded upon fraud and malobservation"

What test did West do? Please give full details.

Hi, Art

certainly there are other real mediums or psychics which I forgot. Mrs. Thompson, Eileen Garrett, Mrs. Chenoweth...

Again Vitor, where are the allegations of fraud against Flint - not innuendo. Yours is a similar line of reasoning to that of a person who claims that they have won an argument because the other person gets tired of them and stops responding.

Which 'result' are you referring to? If you are referring to the suggestion Flint "chickened out" then we have already discussed this and it doesn't amount to any more than an adverse inference ignoring successful investigations, some of which you referred to. Not participating in an investigation isn't a 'result' of an investigation. An investigation requires a finding of fact. Since Flint didn't participate there can be no finding of fact.

If you choose to infer that Flint was a fraud, that would be one possible inference based on that single incident but to say it is a fact that he was a fraud based on it is preposterous.


If you choose to infer that Flint was a fraud, that would be one possible inference based on that single incident but to say it is a fact that he was a fraud based on it is preposterous.

Is not a single incident. The other was when the equipament failed. This is very suspicious too.

In group A only Mrs Piper and Mrs Leonard were mediums - the others are psychics. There is a big difference between the two. If Vitor doesn't know the difference there is nothing to discuss.

I know the difference. I mixed both intencionally. I wrote "mediums or psychics". In any case, there are materialist parasychologists which think that all are psychics.

What test did West do? Please give full details.

MY GOD! there was no test because Flint refuse to submit to infrared cams! Is his and in my opinion this strongly suggest fraud.

I know the difference. I mixed both intencionally. I wrote "mediums or psychics". In any case, there are materialist parasychologists which think that all are psychics.

Why mix up psychics and mediums intentionally?

Who cares what materialist psychologists think anyway?

ALL mediums are psychic but not all psychics are mediums.

MY GOD! there was no test because Flint refuse to submit to infrared cams! Is his and in my opinion this strongly suggest fraud.

Why quote Donald West re Flint when he didn't do any tests?

His quoted remarks are, therefore, completely irrelevant.

You must be the only person in the world who can infer fraud because someone is not interested in tests.

Vitor, let's face it - you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Is not a single incident. The other was when the equipament failed. This is very suspicious too.

As I said to another poster: Suspicion is not enough.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence......and you haven't got any!

Vitor: As Leslie Flint said:

“When I first began to allow myself to be tested I was naive enough to believe that if the tests were successful the scientists and researchers who had carried them out under their own conditions would proclaim to all the world the truth of life after death. All too soon I learned the hard way that many of those who call themselves researchers have immutable values of their own which preclude belief of a meaning or purpose in man’s existence or the possibility of a life after death. Their concern was to disprove the reality of my voices and they would postulate any alternative, however far-fetched or absurd, sooner than admit the implication of their own successful experiment”.

Another comment:

Some of the more ludicrous explanations put forward by some of these so called researchers included suggestions the voices were not real but rather the result of some hypnotic power accompanied by mass hallucinations. This was later disproved when a throat microphone was attached to the throat of Leslie Flint during a sitting such that the slightest sound made through his larynx would be magnified enormously, while the researchers continuously observed him at the same time through an infra-red telescope. When Leslie Flint proved them wrong yet again, the best suggestion the researchers could come up with is that he must have the ability to talk through his stomach.

One impartial, open-Minded expert who did investigate Leslie Flint very thoroughly indeed was Professor William R. Bennett, professor of electrical engineering at Columbia University in New York City. As engineers are usually regarded as highly practical and level-headed people, his evidence was widely regarded to be of particular value. Professor Bennett had this to say of his own personal experience during a Leslie Flint sitting:

“My experience with Mr. Flint is first hand; I have heard the independent voices. Furthermore, modern investigation techniques, not available in earlier tests corroborate previous conclusions by indicating the voices are not his. But to be thorough, one should consider the possibility of live accomplices. This suggestion became untenable to me during his visit to New York in September 1970, when, in an impromptu séance at my apartment, the same voices not only appeared, but took part in conversations with the guests.”

What is particularly suspicious about IR equipment failing? Technical equipment fails under all kinds of circumstances. Are you suggesting Flint or an accomplice interfered with it - if so do you have ANY evidence to support such an assertion. Given this test was performed under controlled conditions do you think the experimenters are likely to have been hoodwinked in this way if so why? It is not enough simply to say they MAY have been as you are calling Flint a fraud and not simply suggesting that PERHAPS there was fraud. In these circumstances you must say why you are so confident if you wish to be taken seriously.

In any event, as you stated yourself, the only thing that changed was the volume of the person speaking. Not the nature of the information conveyed. The verifiable evidence is in the information conveyed not in how loud it is surely?

What exactly do you think the effect of the failure of the IR equipment was? It clearly functioned for some time during the test as it appeared to inhibit the volume of the communicator. Introduction of light (of which IR is a type) has always been injurious to some physical mediums although some such as Alec Harris are alleged to have produced phenomena in red light and in some instances Direct Voice has been heard in daylight. Does that mean all Direct Voice mediums not working in either red light or daylight are frauds. Of course is does not, that would be an illogical conclusion. Does it mean that it is more difficult to eliminate fraud - yes of course, but the phenomena of Direct Voice is based on the voice, personality and information passed. It wouldn't matter if the sitters were all blind on that basis.

I don't object to your suggestion that Flint MAY have been fraudulent. This is always potentially true, at least in principle, unless sufficient controls are in place to make this unlikely (are you saying they weren't in the example you give - if so on what basis as it was a controlled test?).

Your assertion that he WAS a fraud though is unreasonable even based on the limited information you have examined.

"If the various accounts of the afterlife were purely the product of fantasy, one might reasonably expect some of those fantasies to include bananas or hot pants. As far as I can tell, none of them do. Perhaps this argues that there is an underlying reality to these reports.
Or perhaps such ruminations are as silly as they sound."

LOL. I can see how you would look at it that way. From my perspective, though, it's something of a mystery that such a popular locale as the beach doesn't show up in NDEs, channeled communications, or deathbed visions very often, if at all. Given the thousands of reports, we might expect to see more of a variety of environments.

A garden seems to be the overwhelming favorite, showing up far more often than other settings. Why should this be? Is there something hardwired into the human psyche that makes us imagine a garden paradise as opposed to some other environment? Is it purely the result of childhood exposure to stories about the Garden of Eden? I don't know.

It's also interesting that the cliches of pearly gates, angel choruses, clouds, etc. are very seldom mentioned in NDE accounts, channeling, or deathbed visions. If hallucinations and fantasies account for these experiences, why do they run contrary to so many people's expectations?

One thing I wonder about NDEs is if they are hallucinations, why does everyone dream about dying and going to the afterlife? I'm actually expecting to hear accounts where people experience near death but don't report going to the afterlife but just dream as if they were asleep, which is where I think you should be seeing things like the beach, ocean, etc. that we're discussing here.

I also recall a study I can't remember off the top of my head that found that NDEs didn't conform to any religious beliefs. The study did Christians and Hindus, and with Hindus you have to remember a core part of their beliefs is reincarnation. Working on that, if NDEs are a result of expectations, one would imagine a Hindu NDE may consist of dreaming of living in your next life on Earth. However, the study found that Hindu experiencers went through the similar spiritual world scenario that most people go through, which in the light of Hindu beliefs of reincarnation doesn't make sense.

Not using this is evidence or proof, but just something to think about.

To follow up, yes, I think it is an excellent and very intriguing example of sleep paralysis. After doing some digging, I found that this quote is fairly well cited in articles about sleep paralysis. This one is a good read for a number of different reasons.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/06/science/alien-abduction-science-calls-it-sleep-paralysis.html?pagewanted=1

The relationship between sleep paralysis, OBEs and lucid dreaming is a good place to start when investigating these phenomena. Like with dreams, everyone agrees that sleep paralysis is 'real' on some level. So that's something.

What I find most entertaining about the Moby Dick reference is that the 'chasing of the white whale' resonates with the search for truth in the 'fringe'.

That's a good observation, Aftrbrnr, and brings out a serious point made (perhaps inadvertently) by the commenter I quoted. Namely, if NDEs are hallucinations, why *don't* they include "bananas and hot pants"?

A hallucination, like a dream, can have pretty much any content imaginable. So why aren't there NDEs where the person sees himself playing piano at Carnegie Hall, or winning the Super Bowl, or seducing a supermodel, or hang-gliding in Hawaii, or ...?

Considering the possible range of human fantasies, which is at least as broad as the range of things we dream about, it's surprising (to say the least) that NDEs tend to reproduce the same patterns and environments over and over again.

Skeptics try to explain this by saying either a) there are variations in NDEs, or b) the commonalities can be explained as reactions to specific kinds of brain trauma. (E.g., the "tunnel" is a reaction to the brain's visual center shutting down.) The trouble is that a) the variations are minor compared with the repetitive patterns, and much less significant than would be expected in hallucinations; and b) NDEs occur in all sorts of circumstances in which the brain is traumatized in very different ways. (And sometimes in cases where the brain has not been physically traumatized at all - for instance, cases of mountaineers who had an NDE while falling, but landed safely.)

Michael, from your own blog Botkin article: "Pam laughed and said, "My mother was sitting on a large rock by the beach in one of those old-style bathing suits, but the surroundings were more beautiful than any beach I've ever seen. She communicated to me in a very clear way that she was very proud of what I had accomplished in my life. She said there was no reason for me to feel guilty about anything. I felt a warm connectedness like we used to have. When Mom was alive, there was always a touch of sadness in her smile, but that was gone and she looked genuinely happy."

Zerdini,

tell me: why you never used a infra red cam with Flint? By the way, why NO ONE could use infra red cams?

Thanks for the reminder, Richard. I'd forgotten that one.

Zerdini, tell me: why you never used a infra red cam with Flint? By the way, why NO ONE could use infra red cams?

Vitor, I am quite happy to tell you.

When I commenced sitting with Leslie Flint in 1971 I did not have an infra red cam. I did, however, have a cheap tape recorder with which I taped all the seances I attended.

The evidence was outstanding by any standards. For example, I spoke to my grandfather for nearly 40 minutes.

I never found a reason to use an infra red cam although Leslie would not have minded if I had suggested one. Others did as I have a photo of the 'voice box' taken with an infra red camera.

There was nothing in the slightest way suspicious.

Hi, Zerdini

But why only photos, and not films? Since Crookes, we know that photos most of the time are not enough to convince the people...

"But why only photos, and not films? Since Crookes, we know that photos most of the time are not enough to convince the people..." Vitor
-----------------------------

LOL! If someone doesn't believe not even films would convince them. Even if someone were to come back from the dead and poke them in the eye. Arguing with a disbeliever is somewhat akin to beating your head against a cinder block.

I spoke to my grandfather for nearly 40 minutes.

This is not enough.

"It is, I confessa, very puzzling problem( it is, in fact, the problem to which I alluded above) to account for the faith, undoubtedly genuine, which Spiritualists have in the personal reappearance of their
departed friends. Again and again have I asked those who have returned, from an interview with a Spirit at the Cabinet, to their seats beside me, whether or not they had recognized their friends beyond a peradventurea, nd have always received an affirmative reply, sometimes strongly affirmative. I was once taken to the Cabinet by a woman and introduced to the Shade of her dead husband. When we resumed our seats,I could not help asking her: 'Are you sure you recognized him?' Whereupon she instantly retorted,with much indignation, 'Do you mean to imply that I don't know my husband?'

Again, at another stance, a woman, a visitor, led from the Cabinet to me a Materialized Spirit,whoms he introduced to me as' her daughter, her dear, darling daughter,' while nothing could be clearer to me than thef eatureso f the Mediumi n everyl ine and lineament. Again and again, men have led round the circles the Materialized Spirits of their wives, and introduced them to each visitor in turn; fathers have taken round their daughtersa, nd I haves eenw idowss obi n the armso f their dead husbands. Testimony, such as this, staggers me. Have I been smitten with color-blindness ? Before me, as far as I can detect, stands the very Medium herself, in shape, size, form, and feature true to a line, and yet, one after another, honest men and women at my side, within ten minutes of each other, assert that she is the absolute counterpart of their nearest and dearest friends, nay, that she is that friend. It is as incomprehensibleto me as the assertion that the heavens are green, and the leaves of the -trees deep blue. Can it be that the faculty of observation and comparison is rare, and that our features are really vague and misty to our best friends? Is it that the Medium exercises some mesmeric influence on her visitors, who are thus made to accept the faces which she wills them to see? Or is it, after all, only the dim light and a fresh illustration of la unit tous les ehats sont gris? The light, be it remembered, is always dim at these stances, and it is often made especially dim when a Spirit leaves the Cabinet. I think I have nevern been able at such times to read the Arabic numerals on my watch, which happen to be unusually large and pronounced. Unquestionably Spiritualists will be at no loss to explain this puzzle; possibly they woulds ay that I have hereu nconsciouslyg iven one of the very best of proofs of the reality and genuinenesosf Materialization,a nd that my unbelief acts on the sensitive,e vanescentf eatureso f the Spirit like a chemical reagent, and that-but it is not worth while to weaken by anticipation their solacing arguments."

Source: Preliminary Report Of The Commission Appointed By The University Of Pennsylvania (1920)

http://www.archive.org/details/
PreliminaryReportOfTheCommission
AppointedByTheUniversityOfPennsylvania


Vitor: I spoke to my grandfather for nearly 40 minutes.

This is not enough.

It is enough for me!

Flint was an 'Independent Direct Voice' medium not a materialisation medium so, in that context, the rest of your quote is irrelevant.

I have read the Pennsylvania report before but what is the relevance to Flint?

None.

As I've said before, Vitor, your own experiences would be more intersting than rehashed copies of others experiences.

But why only photos, and not films? Since Crookes, we know that photos most of the time are not enough to convince the people...

Vitor, I have not the slightest interest in 'convincing the people'.

I am happy to share my experiences but I am not a spiritual evangelist.

Zerdini,

in materialization we can touch and hear the spirit. In Direct Voice we can only hear..if many people were fooled in materialization phenomena, I can't even imagine how many were fooled in the direct voice phenomena...

Zerdini, when speaking with your Grandfather for 40 minutes during a Leslie Flint session, did he ever say anything or reveal anything verifiable to you that ONLY YOU in that room would know about, and that Flint and the others present couldn't have possibly known?

I'm talking about things that your Grandfather knew in life, that non-relatives at the sitting wouldn't possibly know, that if it were him coming through, he would also know and relate to you after death when you spoke to him, to prove to you that it's actually him speaking.

Those are the most convincing elements of spirit communication to me, when the spirits say things that prove they are who they say they are, where the medium and others present wouldn't have a clue.

I did, however, have a cheap tape recorder with which I taped all the seances I attended

Zerdini, are these tape records available online?

Perhaps you should converter them into mp3 or some digital technology to preserve them.

By the way, I know some Flint's tapes are available online, but my question is if Zerdini's tapes, recorded personally by him, are available

Zerdini, in materialization we can touch and hear the spirit. In Direct Voice we can only hear..if many people were fooled in materialization phenomena, I can't even imagine how many were fooled in the direct voice phenomena...

Vitor, I understand your attempts to downplay Direct Voice and Materialization but it just won't wash.

In Direct Voice it's the evidence that counts - there is nothing to see.

Friends who sat with me had regular talks with their son who 'died' aged sixteen from cancer. He proved to be a very fluent communicator and I had many chats with him too.

Regarding materialization - the difference between you and me is that I have experienced it in good light and you haven't - so there is nothing to discuss.

I will add, however, that while I held the hands of a materialized spirit he simply dissolved through my fingers. The dematerialization began from the feet up.

Hi Eteponge

Those are the most convincing elements of spirit communication to me, when the spirits say things that prove they are who they say they are, where the medium and others present wouldn't have a clue.

I agree. The first communicator who spoke to me in the Direct Voice was my grandmother.

No-one including the medium knew anything about me or my family. I had simply written to the medium asking if I could attend a seance. It as a short sentence as anyone who knows me will testify - I don't write long letters.

He replied giving a date and time - that was all.

The answer to your questions is yes he did.

BTW - I like your blog.


Zerdini, are these tape records available online?

Perhaps you should converter them into mp3 or some digital technology to preserve them.

By the way, I know some Flint's tapes are available online, but my question is if Zerdini's tapes, recorded personally by him, are available

Hi ZC

I would if I knew what mp3 was!

I confess I am not au fait with digital technology.

My tapes are personal to me and will not be available online. I might put transcripts up if they are relevant.

Many recordings are available online courtesy of the Leslie Flint Educational Trust who hold the copyright to the recordings.

They can be accessed at: www.leslieflint.com

On their site you can read the very last interview Leslie gave before he passed. That was in 1993 and was serialised in the Noahs Ark Society magazine.

I should also point out that there was often periods of silence between communications. In fact on one occasion the voice suddenly stopped mid-sentence and as nothing further was heard for 30 minutes the seance was abandoned.

When we left the seance room we discovered there had been an electrical storm at the the exact moment the communication ceased.

This is one of the anomalies of mediumship which is difficult for us to understand.

Zerdini, do you know of any reputable Direct Voice Mediums or Materialization Mediums, in your opinion, who still live in this present day?

I've always wanted to attend one of these types of sessions.

I've had very convincing personal experiences with Mental Mediumship, but none of the other types.

Eteponge, I have a large number of contacts all over the world but do not know of a single reputable direct voice or materialization medium, I'm sad to say.

I admit I find this surprising as in these times of instant communication they should be around somewhere!

If you'd asked me 20 years ago I could have put you in touch but not today.

I wonder if, alternatively, a reputable Mental Medium were able to connect with Leslie Flint in Spirit, if Leslie could produce the Direct Voice Phenomenon around the Medium, from The Other Side.

That's an intriguing idea. Do Mediums who have passed on still maintain their gifts after death, I wonder.

I have spoken to Leslie Flint a few times since his passing and he doesn't seem to have changed much.

From what I have been given to understand mediums remain mediums on the Other Side (if they so wish) although they are used to communicate with spirits in higher spheres.

The medium through whom Flint communicated has now concentrated on mental mediumship and has put physical mediumship to one side.

This is not to say he won't start again but it seems unlikely at the moment.

When we left the seance room we discovered there had been an electrical storm at the the exact moment the communication ceased.

This is one of the anomalies of mediumship which is difficult for us to understand.

Ok, this seems very suspicious too. It seems like a bad functioning of an equipament due to the storm, like a radio, a walkie talkie, a microphone...anything which could transmit the human voice.

More and more I get convinced that Flint was a fraud.

How can you be more convinced than you were earlier when you were certain lol?

As an aside Vitor surely you accept there is a big difference between seeing how a fraud might be carried out and a fraud actually occurring?

I am beginning to think it is pointless trying to discuss the matter with you as you seem only to respond to points which you can think of a response too and ignore the other points being made.

As a final comment, and I don't know whether you understand what Direct Voice is or not, Direct Voice relies on the hearer being able to identify the speaker - not simply by voice but as, if not more, importantly by content. You might be able to imitate a friend of mine if you knew him but you would not be able to recount shared experiences or give information known only by myself and the friend. The problem with not reading about the medium (which you already said you are not prepared to do) is that you do not have an opportunity to consider such evidence.

Whether you think Flint was a fraud or not isn't really important unless you can provide some evidence. So far you have made unfounded accusations and made inferences which are open to different interpretations to support your assertion that he WAS a fraud. I have to say your approach is neither logical not reasonable. Produce some facts and it might be worth considering your opinion.

I am curious as to Vitor's opinion as to the direct voice medium Etta Wreidt.
Vice Admiral W Usborne Moore begins his book, The Voices, with an account written by M. Chedo Miyatovich, ambassador to

England from Serbia. Mr. Miyatovich relates how by direct voice he conversed in Serbian with his mother, and how his friend, a

doctor of law, H.Hinkovitch, had an exchange with an acquaintance in Croatian. Also how Frau Professor Margarette Selenka spoke

with her husband in German. Admiral Moore makes it clear that Mrs. Wreidt spoke English only, and in his opinion that not very

well.
It is hard to challenge the authenticity of Etta Wreidt. Mrs. Wreidt never went into trance, did not use a cabinet, and was

able to produce voices in daylight and full artificial light, although she preferred darkness because the results were better.

Very many more than the languages mentioned above were produced at Wreidt's seances, at times while Mrs. Wreidt was chatting with

sitters.
While Leanora Piper and Gladys Osborne Leonard, two mediums who meet Vitor's stringent criteria, were thoroughly studied by

the SPR, Wreidt displayed no interest in being tested, but only in assuaging the grief of bereaved individuals. Therefore, as far

as I know, a judgment of her mediumship by the SPR was never rendered.
Does the fact that Wreidt never submitted to investigation by the SPR negate her mediumship? The same question might be

asked of Emily French and John Sloan, two mediums of unquestionable integrity. There is an entire line of mediumship that lies

outside the record of SPR activity.
This brings us to the case of Leslie Flint. In my opinion it is unwise to come to any conclusions regarding the "chickening

out" of Flint without taking into consideration the historical situation as of 1947. Very briefly, this was a time when the new

discipline of psychology was coming under the dictorial grip of behaviorism, a view of the human mind that was essentially absurd.

This trend was reflected in the shift from the study of survival to the bean-counting approach of Joseph Banks Rhine and his

wife, Louisa. It was a time of turbulence and much politicking as organizations such as the SPR struggled to gain admittance to

the select group of sciences. Conditions were very unfavorable for a person such as Flint to get a fair rendering of a verdict.

That he elected not to put himself to such a test is not surprising.
NOte that Admiral Moore called the SPR "The Society for the Prevention of Research." Perhaps more consideration should be

given to activity going on outside the proscribed territory of the SPR and to the historical situation as of 1947.

It is also interesting to note that the SPR doesn't investigate anything. Individuals do.

The SPR has a diverse group of individuals comprising its membership ranging from believers in survival to complete sceptics.

The SPR as a body does not express a corporate opinion.

Vitor said: More and more I get convinced that Flint was a fraud.

More and more I get conviced that you are a fraud. Prove me wrong.

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