Guest blog: Stacy Horn

I don't often do this, but today I'm turning over my blog to Stacy Horn, author of the newly released book Unbelievable:  Investigations into Ghosts, Poltergeists, Telepathy and Other Unseen Phenomena from the Duke Parapsychology Laboratory. 

Stacy maintains her own blog. Check it out.

And now ... heeeeeere's Stacy!

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A New Experiment for Telepathy?

I spent a few years researching the work of Duke Parapsychology Laboratory, the most famous of which were the ESP cards experiments.  The scientists at the lab developed a deck of cards with pictures of a circle, square, cross, wavy lines, and a star.  Then they conducted experiments to see if people could tell them what symbols were on the cards without seeing them.  The scientists found that they could.  I investigated all the various claims that have been made to dismiss their experiments and found that the claims were not valid.  I summed up my findings with this:

 “In the end, parapsychology’s critics couldn’t come up with convincing evidence to reject the Lab’s work and neither could I.  But I did take away two ideas: There might be an unidentified source of information out there, along with unknown methods of transmission and processing.  Also, we have a lot more to learn about consciousness.”

I’m open to telepathy as an explanation for the results of the Lab’s experiments, but I’m also open to other explanations.  I now keep my eye out for any recent scientific  findings which might also account for the lab’s results.  If nothing else, my research into parapsychology has greatly amplified my interest in science.

I’d read a brief mention about the recent Alex Tsakiris/Skeptiko interview with Dr. Michael Persinger, a neuroscience researcher and professor at Canada’s Laurentian University. Persinger is probably best know for what the media dubbed the “god helmet.”  He developed a helmet that generates very weak magnetic fields that are similar in intensity to those that he measured in areas said to be haunted.  When people put the helmet on in experiments they see things.  Subjects said things like, “I see shadows along my left side ... there is someone touching my left side ... I see a visual ... it’s an apparition.”  One woman who felt a presence said, “I started to cry when I felt it slowly fade away.” 

There are two quotes from the Skeptiko interview which give a good sense of where Persinger is coming from:

“Our research starts on the basic premise that all experience is generated by brain activity. Now, the critical thing is that all experience means your experience of love, or memories, or having a mystical experience, must be associated with specific patterns of brain activity. That brain activity in large part is determined by the brain structure.”

“The ultimate measure is going to be 1) can you reproduce it in the laboratory and 2) can you actually product the same phenomena by experimental techniques?”

I read the Skeptiko interview with interest because in it Persinger claims to have conducted an experiment which provides evidence of telepathy.  From the interview:

“What we have found is that if you place two different people at a distance and put a circular magnetic field around both, and you make sure they are connected to the same computer so they get the same stimulation, then if you flash a light in one person’s eye the person in the other room receiving just the magnetic field will show changes in their brain as if they saw the flash of light. We think that’s tremendous because it may be the first macro demonstration of a quantum connection, or so-called quantum entanglement. If true, then there’s another way of potential communication that may have physical applications, for example, in space travel.”

I looked around and wasn’t surprised to see people immediately denouncing his experiment.  Here’s the thing—until he publishes and someone attempts to replicate this experiment, there is nothing really yet to either accept or condemn. And I’m pretty sure Persinger would agree. Get ready to pounce if you must, but  any declarations at this point are premature.

I should amend that to “carefully replicates” this experiment. Persinger’s helmet experiment has been dismissed too, because someone tried to replicate it and couldn’t. But Persinger pointed out how the researcher hadn’t actually replicated the experiment and listed which parameters weren’t followed. I was surprised the results of the claimed replication were published at all. It was like someone saying, “Hey, I lowered the temperature of the water to 42 degrees and nothing happened. I don’t believe in ice!”

Because of my research into the Duke Parapsychology Lab, I’m now accustomed to this rush to condemn.  But it makes me wonder what else is out there that’s been dismissed or not even examined or explored due to not just a healthy skepticism, but this outright hostility.  I was at a lecture a few months ago and I learned that outside of psychology the science of emotion was not even a valid area of study until recently, but apparent now it’s all the rage.  (Which is great.)  I’ve written many times that had the scientists of Dr. Louisa Rhine’s day paid attention to her papers the recent “discoveries” being made in the area of audio hallucinations—that people hear voices more than we knew, and that it isn’t necessarily a sign of mental illness—would have begun fifty years ago and we would be that much further along in understanding what is happening and why.  (Louisa Rhine was the wife of the director of the Parapsychology Lab and a researcher herself.)

Persinger addresses this same point in the Skeptiko interview:

“Now to address the issue of things at a distance, that of course, is totally acceptable and expected. Right now you and I are being inundated by cosmic rays, by signals from cell phones, from just literally billions of events but we’re only aware of a couple of them or a few of them per unit time that we call stimuli. So what would happen if you changed the organization of the brain and you became aware of events that were taking place at a distance? It could be anything from, for example, picking up radio signals or something equivalent. If you change the structure of the brain, and that’s what happens in altered states, then of course, you can pick up information at a distance.

“The classic example would be when you’re dreaming. All right, the environment, stimuli that you’re not even aware of at quite a distance, for example, a sound from a bell or the temperature of the room can be incorporated into your dream content. So what makes the near-death experience so exciting is that - and indeed, altered states in general - is it opens up a more objective way of trying to understand what has been rejected, sadly, so many years, called parapsychological phenomena, which is simply information obtained from a distance or time through mechanisms not known to date. And if you keep the definition that way it becomes much less mystical.”

I wanted to end with two more quotes from the Skeptiko interview.

“ ... we’re trying to understand the nature of consciousness itself. And of course, consciousness is probably more like an over-inclusive term. It’s probably not consciousness but a variety of complicated processes and we just slam this word on it that are involved with individuals have these unique skills, like the Shawn Haribands and the Ingo Swanns who seem to have access to information that others do not have. So we’re trying to understand the neurophysical basis to it and to try to integrate it in terms of the known energies around us so that someday we can also replicate it. That really is the real test of a hypothesis or an idea. Can you replicate it with an experiment?”

“... the brain, of course,  is a source of all experiences ... it can serve as a substrate for electromagnetic patterns ... And those electromagnetic patterns are the behaviors and the experiences, which means technically they could exist somewhere else.  That means that if indeed there is an electromagnetic pattern, a complex one though it may be, associated with consciousness, if you recreated a substructure in another kind of setting, for example, a computer or in rocks or in trees, could you have some simulation of that? That, of course, is a hypothesis that definitely deserves testing.”

I said that there might be an unidentified source of information out there, along with unknown methods of transmission and processing.  Persinger seems to be saying we may be able access information from a distance via some mechanism of the brain.  If this is true, I like it because while it may not be the explanation Rhine went with for their results, it allows that their results could have been real, valid, and not the product of fraud or sloppy experimental controls.

Or, it could be that Persinger’s experiments shed light on a different effect entirely.  There might also be valid objections to Persinger’s explanation for his results as well, but the evidence, whatever the final explanation, is intriguing and worth investigating.

I emailed Dr. Persinger and asked if he was going to publish the results of the experiment he talked about in the Skeptiko interview and he answered, “Our revisions are being reviewed by Neuroscience Letters.”

Comments

[william]

“There might be an unidentified source of information out there, along with unknown methods of transmission and processing. Also, we have a lot more to learn about consciousness.”

What a wonderful place to start mentality with one’s research into the mysteries of life.

“I said that there might be an unidentified source of information out there, along with unknown methods of transmission and processing”

Maybe like a universe of cosmic consciousness of infinite oneness and space is nonexistent and only exists in the eyes of the beholder. Or not. Very interesting research process that appears to move beyond the religion of materialistic scientism or the dogma of religion.

“I employed my version of something called data sampling”

You may have received much help with this data sampling. I say this only as I look back on my life it appears that fate played a bigger hand in my life then any plans I had for my life goals.

Welcome to this blog it is the best I have found for open dialog into these mysteries of life.

[dmduncan]

"Our research starts on the basic premise that all experience is generated by brain activity."

The next time some materialist wants to know where the circular premise in materialism is, quote Persinger, and remember especially the words "all experience," meaning no brain = no experience.

[Zetetic_chick]

This is off-topic:

The brother of atheist Christopher Hitchens, called Peter Hitchens (who was also an atheist), has become a Christian:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255983/How-I-God-peace-atheist-brother-PETER-HITCHENS-traces-journey-Christianity.html

He says too that he has put an end to the feud he had with his brother Christopher.

An interesting comment by Peter is this:

I am also baffled and frustrated by the strange insistence of my anti-theist brother that the cruelty of Communist anti-theist regimes does not reflect badly on his case and on his cause. It unquestionably does.

Soviet Communism is organically linked to atheism, materialist rationalism and most of the other causes the new atheists support. It used the same language, treasured the same hopes and appealed to the same constituency as atheism does today.

When its crimes were still unknown, or concealed, it attracted the support of the liberal intelligentsia who were then, and are even more now, opposed to religion.

Even though atheism is, by itself, "politically neutral", it seems to be clear that most atheists, specially materialists, are leftists.

The relation atheism-materialism-political left is one that I've found very strange and intriguing. I suspect it has to do with a certain kind of personality that are atractted to these ideologies (mainly authoritarian, arrogant, "I'm smater than you and I'm in a better position to say what you have to do" kind of people, a personality very common among pseudo-skeptics, materialists and self-attained "secularists")

Ludwig von Mises (who was agnostic about God) said in his book Human Action that behind each socialist there is a dictator.

Perhaps Mises' assertion is an overstatement that would need qualifications; but the evidence of the connection socialism-atheism-materialist-pseudoskepticism--authoritarianism-dogmatism seems to support Mises' insights.

It's clear that there are exceptions to it, but as a general tendency and practical presumption, it seems to be right.

Peter's article is long but very interesting.

[dmduncan]

ZC, you may be interested in RJ Rummel's study regarding how many people were murdered by Communism:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Strains of Marxism have even tried to co-opt Christianity, with success, actually. It's called Liberation Theology.

[Zetetic_chick]

Thanks, dmduncan.

I know the thousand of crimes committed by communists, but I didn't know the reference that you specifically mentioned.

Regarding liberation theology, I think it's philosophically inconsistent with marxism.

An essential feature of marxism (at least as conceived by Marx, Engels and Lenin) is ontological materialism (dialectical materialism) and this is radically incompatible with core aspects of Christianity like afterlife, spirituality and God (who's an immaterial spirit).

Yes, we can take some aspects of marxism (e.g. methods for social research, or the concept of class struggle) and incorporate them into Christian beliefs.

But marxism is not simply a method of research, it's mainly a philosophy and worldview. And this philosophy excludes essential beliefs of Christianity.

Even the social aspects of marxism seem to be incompatible with Christianity. Marx considered religion as part of a the social superstructure and conditioned by the material structure of society.

If it's so, then Jesus is not the center and foundation of existence, but a mere ideological product (superstructure) of certain social organizations in human history.

[william]

“ZC, you may be interested in RJ Rummel's study regarding how many people were murdered by Communism:”

Are you suggesting that people have not been killed due to capitalism?

Socialism, capitalism, communism, materialism, scientism, religious fundamentalism all of these ism’s have their own self destructive attributes built right into their agendas. Any political or economic agenda that does not align itself with these cosmic or spiritual principles or laws will by their very nature self-destruct.

Spiritual teachings do not advocate any of these ism’s but teach the oneness of all.

Christopher Hitchens is anything but a leftist. The Catholic Church does a very good job of creating a lot of atheists. Any institution that teaches guilt, which Hitchens reveals daily, will be very popular as we humans take to guilt as a form of self-confirmatory ideation as a duck takes to water. What I find is that very few people understand that these ism’s as ideological systems of beliefs have on the behavior of its citizens.

An example of this profound ignorance of systemic influence on learning and behaviors is the same old educational agenda of pay for performance based on student test scores for teachers and schools. Pay for performance is one of the most destructive strategies every created by so-called experts in human behavior. This so-called no child left behind and its new approach (i.e. now throw more money at it) will leave 90% of the children behind.

As an organizational consultant I was witness to massive distress and most organizations sub optimization due to a lack of knowledge of the difference between systemic and special causes of variation. Systemic causes of variation for an organization or a nation account for 85% to 95% of the problems that organizations or a nation endures. How can this be?

Because we live in a relative phenomenal world governed by spiritual values and principles.

“The relation atheism-materialism-political left is one that I've found very strange and intriguing.”

I find the relation of fundamentalist religious political right is one that I have found strange and very intriguing. It makes me wonder if the political religious right actually reads the New Testament and the words of Jesus. From my point of view the politicians left and right have little understanding of what these spiritual teachers are actually saying to us.

Example: any society joined as a nation that refuses to its citizens health care insurance for pre existing conditions to enhance profits for mega salaries and bonuses for its CEO’s has minimal if any knowledge of spiritual values or principles and will suffer deeply until it recognizes it must align its societal values with these infinite spiritual values.

Now the good news karma is designed to teach us through experiences. We learn by experiencing our successes and our failures. Mostly through our failures.

[Zetetic_chick]

William, my comment wasn't intented to hurt political sensibilities or preferences, nor defend the virtues of capitalism over socialism or viceverse.

Rather, mine was a factual statement: there is a relation between atheism, materialism and the political left. (This factual statement could be true or false; i think it's true)

If socialism is better than capitalism or viceversa is irrelevant for my observation.

Personally, I think socialism is impractical because I agree with Mises that the economic calculus is not possible in a socialist economy. But it's a purely a technical point about the funtioning of a socialist economy, and I'm not an expert in political economy so I could be totally wrong.

And it doesn't imply that capitalism is perfect, or that crimes cannot be done in the name of it.

Crimes have been committed in the name of Jesus, but it doens't imply that Jesus is "bad" (some atheists would disagree with it, of course).

Frauds have been committed in the name of spiritualism and psychical research, but it doesn't imply researchers in those fields are in general frauds.

Anyway, even if capiatalism is wrong and communism a true paradise and Lenin an hero, my argument is about the psychology of people who tends to be simultaneously sympathetic to socialism, materialism and atheism.

If most atheists/materialists are socialists, it suggests the psychological factors that cause atheism are correlated to the ones that cause belief in socialism.

This is a psychological hypothesis, not a political opinion.

And this is independent of the virtues or flaws of socialism, capitalism, Christianity or atheism.

So interpret my comment as a psychological hypothesis about an empirical connection socialism-atheism-materialism, not as a political apology for capitalism, socialism o whatever political "ism" that you like.

I don't want my (off-topic) comment be misunderstood, and based upon this misunderstanding, be created a sterile debate about ideologies.

[Michael H]

The next time some materialist wants to know where the circular premise in materialism is, quote Persinger, and remember especially the words "all experience," meaning no brain = no experience.

Right, dm. You can try to explain that the mind is spiritual, while the brain is physical, but since the former claim isn't testable - (since mind is spirit it has no form to test) - all you'll end up with is an endless argument.

By the way, ZC, I've noticed the correlation between materialism, atheism and leftism as well. I sense that the common denominator between these ideologies comes down to a hatred of humanity, but that's an intuitive conclusion, and can't be proven any more than the claim that the mind is spiritual can be.

[Michael H]

FWIW, an interesting defense of capitalism showed up in EnlightenNext magazine a while ago. I wish everyone on earth could read, and grasp, Bloom's message:

"Here's a basic fact of the Western way of life: Hard as we may find it to conceive, capitalism offers more things to believe in than any system that has come before. Nearly every faith, from Christianity and Buddhism to Islam and Marxism, promises to raise the poor and the oppressed. But only capitalism delivers what these ideologies and religions profess, century after century. Capitalism lifts the poor and helps them live their dreams. The proof is in the mega-perks we tend to take for granted."

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j28/bloom.asp?pf=1

[william]

“I don't want my (off-topic) comment be misunderstood, and based upon this misunderstanding, be created a sterile debate about ideologies.”

Ideologies as systems have a profound impact on a person’s and a nations mode of being in the relative phenomenal world. They reveal themselves as a nation’s understanding of these spiritual values or principles. I had a simulation that I conducted and changed the system and every time I was able to witness the change in human behavior. Ideologies do affect human behavior and can cause much suffering for its followers and others in other nations. Now would that change in behavior over time change the spiritual awareness of its participants? This is a question that would be interesting to reflect upon.

Capitalism, socialism, communism, libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism, individualism, personalism, egoism, atheism, intellectualism, absolutism, casualism, determinism, fatalism, nationalism, patriotism, materialism; everyone has their cherished ism or isms. The purer the form of these isms’s the more the suffering and therefore the faster the self-destruction.

There is only love of self and all and the want of love and none of these isms are in alignment with this simple but profound axiom. But could that suffering lead to a greater awaking process for its followers? The universe may indeed be perfectly imperfect, as we seem to learn more from our suffering than our mega perks.

[william]

“But only capitalism delivers what these ideologies and religions profess, century after century”

Oh that word only comes up time and time again with our cherished beliefs and our hidden paradigms. My ism is the only ism. I did ok with my cherished ism therefore it must be thee only ism.

Today in America with a purer form of capitalism and individualism and materialism in the last 30 years the top one per cent now have more wealth than the bottom 95%. One out of 8 families is now on food stamps, we have the largest military industrial complex in the world and 720 military bases around the world. We borrow hundreds of billions of dollars from communists, social democracies, religious dictators and print money like it is going out of style, which it is. This is the power of paradigms our ism is the only ism in spite of the evidence.

Ism’s left unchecked: Corporations have now been given person status, and control not only the white house and congress but the supreme court, our prisons are overflowing, our educational institutions are failing, many states are bankrupt, 37 million Americans have no health insurance, 600 thousand a year are filing bankruptcy due to medical costs which is nonexistent in other industrialized nations, no other industrialized country has pre existing conditions for medical insurance for profit motives, the standard of living is falling like a rock, need I go on.

Now the interesting aspect about these cosmic or spiritual principles or laws is that the soul can advance in spite of the ignorance of the masses and their favorite isms. There is only one motivation for our actions and that is love of self and all others and none of these isms are in alignment with these simple but profound spiritual values and principles.

“The proof is in the mega-perks we tend to take for granted."

Wall street mega perks and congress’s mega perks have some interesting aspects to them. One person’s perk is often another person or persons profound suffering. This is the power of an ism we can make it a synonym for personal and religious freedom, republic, democracy, social democracy even make it a synonym for mega perks. The term mega perks has materialism and personalism written all over it.

[dmduncan]

"Regarding liberation theology, I think it's philosophically inconsistent with marxism."

Technically that is true, but a criticism of Liberation Theology has been that it actually ignores the teachings of Christ, that it is in essence a form of materialism that has co-opted the language and symbols and lessons of Christianity to turn them into the opposite — faux Christianity.

An insidious strategy, perhaps.

In other words, you cannot tell the "believer" by the priestly collar.

[william]

“So interpret my comment as a psychological hypothesis about an empirical connection socialism-atheism-materialism, not as a political apology for capitalism, socialism o whatever political "ism" that you like.”

I think our cherished isms reveal much about our level of spiritual awareness and offer us great opportunities for growth in this evolutionally process of consciousness.

This quote above is interesting and I think correct but I also see an empirical connection between capitalism-religion-materialism-individualism and even capitalism- atheism-materialism-individualism. I also find that that a nations isms is a reflection of that nations spiritual awareness. Now the chicken or egg question did the cherished ism of that nation help to create a lack of spiritual awareness for its citizens or was it a lack of spiritual awareness that created an ism not in alignment with these spiritual values or principles or is it a combination of both.

I lean in the direction that political and economic isms do influence a nation’s and its citizen’s level of spiritual awareness due to a simulation I conducted that showed the profound influence a system has on human behavior. But also there is the suffering factor as a learning process so these cherished beliefs in these isms have much to offer a spiritual seeker.

It appears we have the opportunity to awaken to greater levels of spiritual awareness in spite of what ism is cherished as the only ism. I find the human mind including my own a very interesting phenomena. This idea there is only capitalism or socialism is dualistic thinking defined and fails to understand we live in a relative phenomenal world.

How else could infinite Oneness express its infinite potential without a relative phenomenal world or dimensions? Oneness reveals itself though a process of involution and evolution of relative phenomena, which is mistakenly called an illusion by many; it is no illusion but it is temporal and sequential and therefore in the realm of time.

[Michael Prescott]

Doesn't anyone want to talk about Stacy Horn's post? I really doubt the political debate is going to get us anywhere.

[dmduncan]

"Are you suggesting that people have not been killed due to capitalism?"

Your question seems rhetorical, meant to imply parity between capitalism and communism, which would be an unfortunate exaggeration to suggest.

Communists did FAR worse than the Nazis, so it's a bit odd that we hear ONLY of Nazi atrocities and not the far worse done under Communist regimes worldwide. Suspiciously, odd, even. So how would the answer change one bit the staggering number of state sponsored individual evils committed by Communism?

Because people generally have more freedom under a capitalist system they can also change things (like sweatshops), or unionize, whereas with a powerful state that rules the citizenry, you can be killed as a matter of state policy for trying to change things.

But this is now totally off topic, and not fair to the guest, Stacy Horn.

[Ronnie Lee]

I'm with MP... I don't mind occasional off topic-ness but this is too much.

[dmduncan]

Didn't see your post before posting mine, MP.

You frequently tolerate extreme offtopic-ness, but I had a sudden image of a frowning Stacy saying "What does this have to do with my post?"

Sorry Stacy. Just think of us as fish in a barrel who can't resist a good lure.

[Zetetic_chick]

“... the brain, of course, is a source of all experiences ... it can serve as a substrate for electromagnetic patterns ... And those electromagnetic patterns are the behaviors and the experiences

This idea seems to be intuitively plausible, but in a closer look, I think it's wrong.

Electromacnetic patterns cannot be "experiences", because experiences are subjective and electromagnetic patterns are objective and all of their properties are defined and specified by physical laws.

Pesinger's speculation doesn't explain how a specific electromagnetic pattern, that in itself is a pure physical phenomenon, give rise to consciousness.

Another point is that electromagnetic patterns cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and evidence for telepathy seems to suggest the phenomenon ocurr intanstaneously.

If you include remote viewing and specially precognition, the Persinger' idea seems to be very improbable.

I don't doubt thata electromagnetic patterns correlated with psi experiences (and experiences in general) can exist and can be found.

But I doubt this correlation implies metaphysical identity with consciousness.

That means that if indeed there is an electromagnetic pattern, a complex one though it may be, associated with consciousness, if you recreated a substructure in another kind of setting, for example, a computer or in rocks or in trees, could you have some simulation of that? That, of course, is a hypothesis that definitely deserves testing.

Again Pesinger assumes that correlation implies identity of electromagnetic patterns and consciousness.

Can he really believes that if the "electromagnetic pattern" of Shakira is recreated in another structure, let's to say, a computer or an iphone or a tree, suddenly that object would have the Shakira's memories, consciousness and personality? Do my tree would begin to sing "She Wolf" after such procedure?

Only if you assume that consciousness is some kind of physical configuration and hence in principle "recreable" in other physical objects, you can conclude something like that.

Anyway, I hope Persinger continues with his research. The evidence will say if he's right ot wrong,

[dmduncan]

Okay, if Stacy knows the answer. Here's Persinger:

"... the brain, of course, is a source of all experiences ... it can serve as a substrate for electromagnetic patterns ... And those electromagnetic patterns are the behaviors and the experiences, which means technically they could exist somewhere else. That means that if indeed there is an electromagnetic pattern, a complex one though it may be, associated with consciousness, if you recreated a substructure in another kind of setting, for example, a computer or in rocks or in trees, could you have some simulation of that? That, of course, is a hypothesis that definitely deserves testing.”

What is he talking about here?

If the brain is A source of experience, how can it be THE source of ALL experience? He seems to be unsure of what to think himself.

In addition, is he saying that he thinks it might be possible to "record" or "capture" experience outside of the brain in rocks and trees? Or just electromagnetic patterns that could be accessed by mind, so somehow recorded in nature like a photograph, and without being a capture of consciousness?

[Zetetic_chick]

By the way, I just finished reading a paper by philosopher James Ross entitled "The immaterial aspects of thought" where he develops a positive argument for the immateriality of consciousness and thought:

http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/courses/43151/ross-immateriality.pdf

He doesn't argue for substance dualism, but for the fact that at least some aspects of thought are necessarily immaterial because it's impossible that they're physical or material.

The paper is very hard to understand and possibly you'll need to read it several times, given Ross' idiosyncratic and technical forms of expression.

Ross' thesis is this:

Some thinking (judgment) is determinate in a way no physical process can be. Consequently, such thinking cannot be (wholly) physical process. If all thinking, all judgment, is determinate in that way, no physical process can be (the whole of) any judgment at all. Furthermore, "functions" among physical states cannot be determinate enough to be such judgments, either. Hence some judgments can be neither wholly physical processes nor wholly functions among physical processes

He argues, for example, that logical thinking is structured in a way that, in principle, cannot exist in any physical object. Such structure is what determines the notions of validity and "truth-bearing" property of correct logical thinking and reasoning.

Arguments like these are reasons against Persinger's electromanetic pattern hypothesis of consciousness.

However, Persinger's idea could have a way out: Survivalists agree that consciousness is, somehow, "emdodied" in the brain.

Is not possible that the speicific structure that bear such "embodiement" be precisely some kind of electromagnetic pattern, instead of the brain as a whole?

It's possible, but in such case, the electromagnetic pattern is only a "carrier" of consciousness, not consciousness itself.

Hence, the belief that "recreating" such pattern in a tree or a hat will produce (or re-produce) consciousness is misguided.

[sonic]

A few things-

1) I looked at Stacey's site- seems like I will have to spend some time there- looks very interesting.

2) I'm surprised because I thought the 'god helmut' had been tested independently and found wanting. I'm pretty sure that the effect is achieved even if the helmut is not plugged in. (Or not achieved, as in the case of Dawkins)

3) Thank-you MP for getting the thread going in the right direction. (Too much off-topic in this case (a guest blogger) was getting a bit rude-- although the topic itself was interesting and I'm sure no rudeness was meant...)

[Erich]

An alternative that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet - and one I prefer - is that elctromagnetic phenomenon may influence perception much in the same way some drugs, like psychedelics, do; i.e. they alter brain activity such that filters that block out aspects of reality/consciouness are shut down or lessened to a degree such that awareness is expanded (or at least shifted).

The key here is that neither the brain, the electormagnetic impulse nor the drug is causing the awareness. The awareness exists independent of any of these, but the brain, as receiver, just isn't tuned to that channel most of the time.

[Michael Prescott]

I would assume Persinger means that electromagnetic fields can serve as the substrate of consciousness. This would be a more defensible position than saying they are consciousness itself.

It's true that the god helmet has been controversial, and that a second lab could not reproduce Persinger's results. Stacy Horn tells me that Persinger has replied in detail to this criticism, saying that the second lab did not follow the proper procedures. Maybe she can expand on this, if she's following the thread.

[Erich]

MP, yes, I think that is what Persinger is saying.

I am reiterating that electromagnetic fields could still merely be acting in much the same manner as some drugs, sensory deprivation, meditation, etc as opposed to be the substrate of consciousness and I would offer as evidence that the techniques I mention can produce very similar effects as his electromagnetic fields do.

[dmduncan]

"I would assume Persinger means that electromagnetic fields can serve as the substrate of consciousness."

Well if he's saying that then isn't he also in essence saying that consciousness can exist in those substrates and thus without a brain? But this would seem to contradict his earlier assumption that ALL experience is brain dependent.

Or is he searching for some way to explain apparitional phenomenon as objective?

It's just not clear what he means here, and I'm not familiar enough with his work to know.

[Zetetic_chick]

I would assume Persinger means that electromagnetic fields can serve as the substrate of consciousness.This would be a more defensible position than saying they are consciousness itself.

Interpretative charity would require that we assume that.

But if we accept that charitable interpretation, Persinger's following assumption doesn't make any sense: "Our research starts on the basic premise that all experience is generated by brain activity"

Electromagnetic fields, patterns and signals exist previous to the existence of the biological brains. Hence, if such fields are the substrate of consciousness, it is false that all experience is generated by brain activity.

But perhaps what Persinger wants to say is that the specific electromagnetic pattern generated by the brain is what causes or produces consciousness, or at least what serves as "carriers" of it.

In the first case, it is inconsistent with the charitable interpretation that Michael suggests.

In the second case, it contradicts Persinger's own opinion that "recreating" such pattern in non-brain substrate (like a tree or pair of keys) will produce consciousness or experience.

If electromagnetic fiels don't produce consciousness but serves as mere "carriers" or substrate of it, then you cannot re-produce consciousness through a replication of such electromagnetic fiels in non-biological objects (like rocks).

Persinger explicitly assumes a materialistic premise: "all experience is generated by brain activity", but if it's the case, how is it possible that a tree or a rock (that lacks a brain) could have experience and consciousness?

Persinger's basic materialistic premise is inconsistent with his other views.

Let us to be more charitable:

Persinger talks about "simulation", not production, when he says: "That means that if indeed there is an electromagnetic pattern, a complex one though it may be, associated with consciousness, if you recreated a substructure in another kind of setting, for example, a computer or in rocks or in trees, could you have some simulation of that?"

What does "simulation" mean there? Is it simply a superficial external resemblance to actual consciousness? If it's so, Persinguer's view is trivial: cartoons like The Simpsons have a very good resemblance to people with actual consciousness, but they don't exist.

Simulating something is not "being" such something, at least not in the relevant sense. If I simulate being Michael Jackson, I still won't be Michael Jackson.

A robot can simulate activities that in humans are produced by consciousness and experience, but it doens't imply robots have consciousness and experience.

If by "simulation" Persinger is referring to a "re-production" of consciousness in non-biological objects like a computer, rocks or trees, then he's refuting his own basic assumption that all experience is generated by the brain.

And he's still open to the general objections to materialism and the particular objections mentioned above.

I know of no other charitable alternative interpretations of Persinger's opinion.

Persinger seems to be a a little bit ambiguous in his opinions.

[Goonch]

That was a very refreshing interview. He sounds level-headed.

I was surprised the results of the claimed replication were published at all. It was like someone saying, “Hey, I lowered the temperature of the water to 42 degrees and nothing happened. I don’t believe in ice!”

I'm not sure how he, and many parapsychologists, put up with this to be honest. I've listened to several interviews with people like Sheldrake or Radin and they are misrepresented constantly. It seems they lose the publicity war rather easily.

I couldn't do it. I'd lose my composure.

I was interested to hear Persinger mention the sad state of affairs with scientists becoming 'group oriented' as he put it. No independent thoughts said aloud seem to go without ridicule.

[william]

These quotes are excerpts from Horn’s book.

“Something more substantial than a memory must survive of all that love. It’s unthinkable that the dead are truly and completely gone. And if the dead are not completely gone, we, as every generation that came before, are compelled to look for whatever remains.”

I think this is an honest and valid and even a passionate statement. It is that passion that will sustain her in those days and nights when the research goes down a lonely road to seeming nowhere. But I hope she keeps in mind it is a road that needed to be taken or it would not have been traveled. We spend so much money on other forms of research and miss the biggest question in most people’s minds. Some state that our greatest fear is death and is the cause of many if not most neurotic and psychotic behaviors.

It is courageous for anyone to take on such a challenge considering the deep belief in the scientific community of materialism that has become a religion of materialistic scientism.

“The men and women of the Duke Parapsychology Laboratory were scientists. They never would have phrased it this way. But when all is said and done, when trying to prove that death is not the end, what they were really trying to prove is that love lasts forever”

For me personally the duke parapsychology lab would be one of the last places I would look to provide evidence for life after death. But it is evidence that supports that we are more than our material selves and consciousness is not just a brain function.

“A medium relaying messages of continuing love from a dead wife might be enough for a inconsolable widower, but it would never be enough for the scientific community who demanded not only more convincing evidence, but also experiments that could be reliably repeated to produce consistent results.”

I agree that someone in grief would not be the person most believable as to the validity of what a medium is communicating but this statement leaves one with the impression that the only communication from mediums is to those in grief. I know she wrote this to make a point but it is misleading to a general audience that has not done their own research into mediumship.

There have been experiments that have provided qualitative evidence by scientists that have been repeated time and time again that have produced consistent results.

“what they were really trying to prove is that love lasts forever”

Indeed love last forever, as we are expressions of that infinite love, how could it not last forever. I was told recently on this blog that my comments were very negative for stating we don’t have a personal freedom or a personal mind.

It is the greatest gift available to not have a separate personal mind or the personal freedom to eternally not participate in being a unique expression of this infinite love. Karma demands that we as souls all show up on the doorstep and beyond to a love of self and others.

[sonic]

What is clear is that the scientists that attempted to reproduce Persinger's results failed to do so. Why they failed is apparently debatable.
It would seem that another attempt at reproduction would be appropriate.
I'm surprised at the apparent lack of interest.

[Coffones]

Although this is not exactly the same experiment of Persinger, i think it someway refutes his main assumptions:
http://www.dailygrail.com/news/the-haunt-project

[alanborky]

Stacey/Michael, I personally'd question Dr. Persinger's contention the brain's the source of all experience simply because there're approximately 130 KNOWN cases out there of people who're fully functioning individuals despite having NO brain.

That inexplicable anomaly throws a spanner in the smooth proceedings of many sciences, including natural selection based Evolution, which is why if it's noted at all it's then immediately disregarded.

I'd argue, therefore, it's the mind when it's functioning as a region or field of pure awareness - i.e. not consumed with petty narrational thoughts of whether to eat fish fingers or beans on toast while watching either Emmerdale or East Enders - that's the means by which we experience the world.

What I find fascinating about his telepathy by electromagnetic isolation experiment is it implies those people who DO seem to depend on a brain and're ALSO prone to telepathic episodes have either somehow employed the enormous plasticity of the brain to reshape it until it can provide its own variable equivalent of electromagnetic shielding OR they've somehow managed to retain the shielding with which we're all naturally born despite the educational regime we're then subjected to, to make us reshape our brains until we eventually lose it.

[Stacy Horn]

Hi everyone. I was telling Michael, Persinger is little more open than those quotes would lead you to believe. I interviewed him about the god helmet for my book and at some point he said something which made me think he was more open then he was letting on. So I just asked him. Here is the section from my book, it's short!

"When asked if there was any possibility that the EMF fluctuations in the field might represent an intelligent presence, Persinger answered, “Stan Koren and I wrote a chapter for Houran and Lange (Hauntings and Poltergeists, 2001) where we discuss the possibility that configured magnetic flux lines within a small space (such as the luminosities seen in haunt and in ghost light areas) might have the energy density, intraspatial complexity (e.g., similar to trillions of synapses in the human brain) and timing to allow "intelligence" to emerge, at least transiently. Of course this intelligence could be suspended, just like ours when we enter deep sleep at night, only to return when the functional reconfiguration occurs again. This is a hypothesis well worth pursuing.” In an earlier paper he wrote, “there is some evidence that some paranormal experiences may be transformations of information not normally accessible.” The answer appears to be “maybe.” A fleeting apparition might simply be an intermittent signal or information, available only to those with the proper tuning or filtering mechanism."

[william]

“A fleeting apparition might simply be an intermittent signal or information, available only to those with the proper tuning or filtering mechanism."

We know so little as to why some have this proper tuning and filtering mechanism as it does not appear to always be a positive causal correlation with a more advanced level of consciousness or awareness. My view is that as long as we are still in the realm defining our research with such terms as tuning, filtering, mechanism, signals, etc we are still in the realm of a materialistic set of beliefs and reality will elude us but then every soul has a unique path to its continual on-going evolution of consciousness process.

That darn hard problem again called consciousness. If consciousness is the hard problem what then is awareness?

That variation thing again in a relative phenomenal world but this variation does give to us almost infinite discoveries to make, what would life be like without these many aspects of phenomena to discover. If we had all knowledge and understanding and perfect in every way, there is no us just Isness. The Buddhists call this Isness emptiness, which is simply pure awareness with no phenomena.

As consciousness evolves there are many levels of consciousness and one only has to look around and observe and see this evolution of consciousness process in all aspects of our lives. As I watch young children once they prevail over one challenge they move on to the next and we adults are not much different.

Those that state there is only suffering and nirvana and all is illusion miss this very important aspect of life: the necessity of this evolution of consciousness process. Infinite with its involution of consciousness process is allowed to discover and express Itself in its entirely with each and every unique soul. How profound is that?