Hidden messages

Currently I'm reading Immortal Longings, by Trevor Hamilton, a biography of pioneering psychical researcher and psychological theorist F.W.H. Myers. Early in the book, the author discloses a fact about Myers that may be relevant to the famous "cross correspondences."

The cross correspondences were a long series of messages received by mediums after Myers' death. These messages were broken up into fragments that appeared in the communications of different mediums, widely scattered around the world. When someone thought of piecing these fragments together, coherent messages emerged.

Of course, people have debated the significance of this for years. Some regard the cross correspondences as among the best evidence for life after death; others think the connections between the fragments are coincidental or the product of "data mining."

What I learned from Immortal Longings is that this method of disguising a message by breaking it into fragments was actually used by Myers when he was alive. As Hamilton reports, some of Myers' diary entries took exactly this form.

Take Myers' cautious approach to recording his love for Annie Marshall, a married woman. Hamilton writes,

Entered in his diary on the next page, broken up into several pieces as was sometimes his way with material that required discretion, was 'Adgnosco Veteris Vestigia Flammae: I recognise traces of the former passion', the anguished cry of Dido in book IV of the Aeneid.

Note that the majority of cross correspondences attributed to the discarnate Myers also involved classical allusions. Myers, a classical scholar, often expressed his ideas in terms of quotations from classical sources.

Later, Myers visited Scarborough with Annie and her husband. Hamilton tells us:

At the foot of the page recording the Scarborough excursion, and of the next three pages, were placed single-line quotes from a poem by William Morris. When these were combined they clearly indicated the way love had been creeping up on him: 'Love is enough;/ while ye deemed he was sleeping/ There were signs of his coming/ and sounds of his feet'."

Referring specfically to this series of entries, Hamilton adds:

For those interested in the puzzle of apparent post-mortem communications from Myers, it may be worth noting that the same device appeared in one of 'his' [postmortem] scripts.

The close similarity between the cross correspondence and Myers' habit, when alive, of concealing his messages by breaking them up is, at the very least, suggestive that Myers' consciousness lay behind some of the messages received after his death.

===== 

(Quotations are from pp. 40-41 of Immortal Longings. The citation given in the last quote is an article by Alice Johnson, "On the automatic writing of Mrs Holland," in Proceedings of the Society for Psychical Research, 21:178. As far as I can determine, this article is not freely available online, though apparently members of the Society can access it.)

Comments

[Hafiz]

Neat!

[william]

“Some regard the cross correspondences as among the best evidence for life after death;”

This is more evidence that not all crows are black. This is another example of a white crow. As James stated one white crow is all we need to find to prove that not all crows are black. It is interesting that science accepts probabilities with other areas of science but when it comes to anything that challenges their materialistic paradigm; then they throw probabilities out the window and call all such evidence antidotal.

Scientists accept Darwinism as fact due to probabilities but yet discount stories like Meyers who appeared to be a very through researcher. Also they discount Stevenson’s research on reincarnation another respected researcher.

Materialism and religion are two sides of the same coin. Now I have read there is a group of people rewriting the bible and taking our some of the liberal passages from the bible as they consider the term fellow worker and laborer as socialistic words. We humans are an interesting species.

“The close similarity between the cross correspondence and Myers' habit, when alive, of concealing his messages by breaking them up is, at the very least, suggestive that Myers' consciousness lay behind some of the messages received after his death.”

To suggest as many materialists do that Myers correspondence was data mining or coincidence is a big stretch as this cross correspondence was very exact and the odds of it being due to coincidence are astronomical.

This is in my mind qualitative evidence for survival after death rather than antidotal evidence. Now qualitative evidence is considered legitimate evidence and meets the standards of the scientific method.

What I have noticed is the atheists and the ultra skeptics treat qualitative evidence as antidotal evidence. This has to be because to accept this qualitative evidence as valid would completely decimate their materialistic paradigm. Paradigm shifts are rare and usually come from those outside the existing paradigm.

For any scientist to investigate the paranormal is to be brave enough to completely step outside the existing scientism materialistic paradigm with great risk to their future grants and career.

[GregL]

I am wondering if anyone has ever made a complete study of the cross correspondencs. I have seen the same two or three cases quoted seveal times in several different books.

I realize that the correspondences are volumes long but a lucid condensation of the facts and probabilities for the modern reader would be welcome. Perhaps a complete study would reveal them to be nothing more than "data mining" fraud or coincidence, then again, perhaps not.

Michael, there's a good book idea for you!

[Michael Prescott]

"Michael, there's a good book idea for you!"

The effort would require a much deeper knowledge of classical poetry and mythology than I possess, and probably proficiency in Latin, as well.

But there have been detailed studies. W.H. Salter is one person who explored the cross correspondences in detail. Another is the Countess of Balfour, who wrote a book-length article on one series of messages, "The Palm Sunday Case."

Unfortunately the material is fairly mind-numbing in its complexity and obscurity. While I do think it is good evidence, it does not make for interesting reading!

[Zetetic_chick]

What I learned from Immortal Longings is that this method of disguising a message by breaking it into fragments was actually used by Myers when he was alive

I think it importantly counts in favor of the survival hyppthesis.

It's clearly a case where highly specific, personal and idiosincratic method of communication was used both in Earth and in the afterlife.

Explaining this as an effect of super-psi would require, at least, that the mediums who gave the messages were familiar with this particular Myers' idiosincratic method and that, unconsciously, the mind of all of them worked since the beggining in the same way than Myers' mind when employing that method. It seems highly unlikely.

Or that someone familiar with Myers' method was influencing the mind of all of these mediums.

In that case, is more parsimonious to think the person doing the influence was Myers himself than other person alive on Earth.

Classical allusions is another fact that, in the context of that idisincratic way of communication, suggest that the source of the messages is the same.

It's not simply the particular method employed, but also the style of that communication, which support a survivalist interpretation of the case and points out to the same source (Myers' consciousness).

I think an estimate of probabilities, using mathematical tools, should be employed to determine the probability that all these facts, including Myers' idiosincratyc manifestations, were mere coincidences.

I think these facts give more support to the survivalist interpretation of cross correspondences when compared with alternative hypotheses.

[william]

“I think an estimate of probabilities, using mathematical tools, should be employed to determine the probability that all these facts, including Myers' idiosincratyc manifestations, were mere coincidences.”

Years ago a church blew up from a gas leak before they put something in natural gas to make it smell so people would know there was a leak. Well all the people were late for a choir practice the same night the church blew up at almost exactly the time everyone was to be there for choir practice.

I calculated the probability of all of those people being late on the same night and the numbers were off the chart. It is important to state there were no special circumstances that caused everyone to be late. Everyone had a different excuse for being a few minutes late.

I did not even factor in the probability of that church of all existing churches using natural gas blowing up on the same night everyone was late. There is never enough evidence for a materialist. We fail to realize what a materialist has to give up to accept the reality that the paranormal exists. Their entire system of beliefs would be destroyed. This would amount to an enormous mental pain and embarrassment.

The atheists and materialists that I presented the evidence to simply stated it was due to chance and because that event can not be repeated for verification as part of a research design of experiments it cannot be accepted as evidence and because once in a while a church will blow up or they stated my math must have been wrong.

Materialism and religious fundamentalism are two sides of the same coin. I suspect the veil that hides the other side is very thick for a reason.

[Cyrus]

Materialism is really a quirky philosophy which came from the ancient Greeks and has picked up steam in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.

Wrap your heads around this one: Eliminative Materialism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminativist_materialism

This school of thought is when you take standard materialism, then take a detour into crazy-world. Eliminativist Materialists will argue that consciousness itself is an illusion, and everything must be reduced solely to the biological function. They argue against psychiatry on the basis that the subjective world of the mind is not real, the only thing that's real are the chemical reactions in our brains.

I think somewhere, something went terribly wrong.

[Zetetic_chick]

This is off-topic, but related to the general matters discussed in this blog.

As I've been re-reading Martin Gardner's book Science, Good, Bad and Bogus, he mentions (as part of his debunking strategy and attempts of discreditation by association) that Harold Puttoff was a scientologist, and that many of the members and observers of SRI were scientologists too.

These claims are true, at least regarding Puttoff.

One of the psychics tested was Ingo Swann who was a high-level scientologists (so-called an operating thetan, that is, an individual with causative spiritual ablities, including psi).

Swann credits Scientology in helping him to control and develop his psi abilities.

There is an interesting comment by Jeffrey Mishlove about this: "Some evidence circumstantially supports the claims of the Scientologists. Ingo Swann, a psychic who has been tested extensively in several laboratories- with almost consistently successful results (Puthoff & Targ 1974, Osis & Mitchell 1972, Schmeidler 1972) - is a product of Scientology training and is, in fact, an OT-VII, the highest level attainable in the organization. It is not necessarily correct to assume that Swann's psychic abilities were "trained" by his Scientology experience. In his autobiography, To Kiss Earth Goodbye, Swann (1975) indicates that he has been aware of his abilities since childhood. In the following vague passage, he credits Scientology with enabling him to control his natural abilities: "If certain experiences were possible for me as a child, it must be stated that no volitional control over the types of phenomena demonstrated during the last three years would have been possible had there been in me an absence of the transcendental structure of ideas presented by Hubbard. It is basic to Hubbard's thesis that the center of awareness, the T, is probabilistically determinant over matter, energy, space and time to the degree that the T removed the programmed blocks to his understanding of them."

http://jeff.gaia.com/blog/2006/5/esp_in_scientology

I've always thought that many of Hubbard's ideas were silly and false (and I continue to think that), but if the above is true, then not all of his theories or conjetures about the spiritual world are wrong.

However, my opinion is that many of Hubbard's ideas conflict with afterlife evidence (not regarding the existence of an afterlife, but regarding the details and conditions of it)

One of Hubbard's ideas that I find plausible is that removing negative emotions (or more specifically, "engrams" which is a technical and definite term in Hubbard's jargon) is essential to develop psi abilities.

As a matter of fact, Hubbard argues that psi abilities are intrinsic of any spiritual being, but they're suppressed by engrams. Hence removing engrams is instrumental to attain the "operating thetan" condition, exemplified by Swann.

Psychics who are non-trained scientologists would be, according Hubbard, only spiritual beings who, naturally or due to an evolutionary reincarnation process of spiritual evolution, have less engramic constrains of their natural and spontaneous spiritual power.

Sorry for the off-topic... :)

[sbu]

Sorry for another off-topic post:

I watched this interview with Sam Parnia on MSBNC yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkFGWMFfRU&feature=player_embedded

Sam Parnia is head of the AWARE study which is a scientific investigation into NDEs. In interviews 8 years ago he sounded much more like a believer into that something really leaves the body during an NDE. Now he seems more reluctant when commenting on these claims. This suggests to me that the AWARE study so far fails to verify anything paranormal about an NDE.

[Michael Prescott]

Vitor Moura has kindly supplied me with the article by Alice Johnson mentioned in the main post.

First, here again is the description from "Immortal Longings" of Myers' diary entries:

"At the foot of the page recording the Scarborough excursion, and of the next three pages, were placed single-line quotes from a poem by William Morris. When these were combined they clearly indicated the way love had been creeping up on him: 'Love is enough;/ while ye deemed he was sleeping/ There were signs of his coming/ and sounds of his feet'."

Here is the excerpt from Alice Johnson's article, pp. 177-8:

"One of the earliest passages [in the cross correspondences] is ... written on two sides of a half-sheet of paper; the first side begins with the initial 'F.,' and the second ends with the initial 'M.'; the whole passage is divided into four short sections, the first three ending respectively in '17/,' '/l' and '/01.' January 17th, 1901, was the date of Mr. Myers's death, mentioned in 'Human Personality,' but the simple device
of separating these initials and items from one another was completely effective in its apparent object. I read the passage
a good many times before I saw what they meant and I found that the meaning had entirely escaped Mrs. Holland's notice."

So in Myers' diary we have a passage broken up into four short sections to conceal its meaning, and in Mrs. Holland's automatic writing we have a passage broken up into four short sections to conceal its meaning.

Of course it is likely that Mrs. Holland knew, or could have known, Myers' date of death, so the possibility that it was her subconscious sending the message cannot be ruled out. However, as far as I know, there is no reason to think that Mrs. Holland ever saw Myers' diaries or would have known about his quirky method of concealing messages.

[Michael Prescott]

"This suggests to me that the AWARE study so far fails to verify anything paranormal about an NDE."

I'm rather skeptical of the AWARE study. It seems to me that if I were in a hospital in critical condition and suddenly found myself out of my body and experiencing the initial stages of death, my attention would not be focused on random pictures taped to the tops of hospital equipment.

In any case, some years ago Charles Tart carried out a famous experiment with an OBEr he called Miss Z. The subject accurately reported a series of random numbers hidden from her normal view. Nevertheless, the result was ruled inconclusive because there was a theoretical possibility that Miss Z could have seen a faint reflection of the numbers in the face of a clock (though the light in the room was not strong enough to produce a visible reflection).

If some AWARE subject were to report seeing the hidden picture, the claim would probably be treated the same way, or dismissed as coincidence.

It's worth a shot, of course, but I wouldn't be too hopeful of definitive results.

[william]

“If some AWARE subject were to report seeing the hidden picture, the claim would probably be treated the same way, or dismissed as coincidence.”

Or claims of fraud. There has to be an out; it is too mentality painful for a materialist not to have an out. Materialism has fervent religious-like implications for a materialist. Politics, religion, materialism, and scientism seem to be the most easily recognizable as demonstrating these strong beliefs and having religious like implications.

The lessons to be learned from these reactions of denial to any information that does not agree with our cherished beliefs or paradigms is what do we all have that is hindering our view of the world. We can often see in others their limitations but in ourselves it is exponentially more difficult and often impossible to recognize.

When I started my research into life after death about two decades ago and then it expanded into other interests like meaning of life, origin of suffering and origin of ignorance I was very concerned that this paradigm effect would hinder my research. Also I felt wishful thinking might be a roadblock.

I think my greatest surprise in my study and research into the paranormal is how much evidence exists for the paranormal, not only antidotal evidence but qualitative evidence that the masses know very little if anything about. And of course I have had a few events in my life that appear to defy a materialistic explanation.

[Michael Prescott]

"not only antidotal evidence"

Nitpicking correction: "anecdotal."

I agree that the amount of evidence, and the quality of much of it, is truly surprising. That was my biggest surprise also, when I began to look into this stuff.

[Paul]

Archie Roy has published a book on the Cross-correspondences: The Eager Dead. I am not recommending it, merely pointing it out. I have read it, it is very thick :)

[Larry Boy]

There's some comments on the Cross-correspondences in Eric Dingwall's "The Need For Responsibility In Parapsychology Research" (available at http://www.survivalafterdeath.org.uk/articles/dingwall/responsibility.htm):

"The SPR was busy with its renowned cross-correspondences, which have proved impossible to investigate since we are not yet permitted to examine the original documents."

"Now I have to give another warning. It is common practice among parapsychologists to offer the most fantastic tales of the occult and then refuse to permit any adequate investigation by other people. The British SPR carried out this policy with relation to the cross-correspondence. Even the identity of some of the mediums was secret, and the public was only permitted to know who Mrs. Willett was after she was dead. It was then too late to ask her a few questions. The student will find that every kind of obstruction, evasion, and refusal will meet his request to be allowed to verify the details of the stories in question."

Now I think Dingwall's article on the whole is rather emotional and probably unfairly biased against parapsychologists, but anyway, any comments on these remarks?

[william]

Nitpicking correction: "anecdotal."

that is not nitpicking those two words have completely different meanings.

I thought I had checked that spelling out to verify it.

[Michael Duggan]

sbu, the Aware study has only just begun, and data collection is done on a site-by-site basis. Sam Parnia is co-ordinator of the project (together with Peter Fenwick) and would not know how the study is progressing, until all the data is collated and analysed at the sudy termination. This is part of the study design. IMO Dr Parnia is an open minded skeptic, but appears sympathetic to transcendental interpretations of NDE / OBE phenomena. Michael, I have to correct you; the targets are placed on specially fitted shelves, not hospital equipment. Also, the researchers are using sophisticated blood oxygen monitoring equipment (the INVOS system) to see if these experiences occur with less thsn 15% blood oxygen levels (the minimum required for lucid thought construction). If so, then that supports the dualist interpretation, if not, then the materialist.
Quite frankly the data from this study (due 2012, 2013) will be phenomenally important. If negative, they have the potential to cast the idea of brain-mind separation, including psi phenomena, into serious doubt.
The link is here:

http://www.horizonresearch.org/blog/2009/06/welcome-to-horizon-research/

[Michael Prescott]

"If negative, they have the potential to cast the idea of brain-mind separation, including psi phenomena, into serious doubt."

This would be true if NDEs were the only evidence for brain-mind separation. But since there's so much more evidence, I can't see how this particular test will matter much, one way or the other.

And I can guarantee you, if there are positive results, skeptics will find a way to "debunk" them.

[Zetetic_chick]

If negative, they have the potential to cast the idea of brain-mind separation, including psi phenomena, into serious doubt.
The link is here

No, it only would undermine the idea that NDEs implies mind-brain separation, and hence a survivalist interpretation of NDEs would be unwarranted.

If NDEs are product of a dying or malfunctioning brain, and entirely explainable in terms of materialism, it says nothing about other evidence or phenomena that cast doubts on materialism.

Psi phenomena in general is well-supported by normal scientific standards, and they don't depend on the AWARE study for validation.

And I can guarantee you, if there are positive results, skeptics will find a way to "debunk" them

In that case, predictably, "skeptics" will argue for at least two points:

-Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence; and the evidence of the AWARE study is not extraordinary enough. (The "extraordinary" word is never defined nor specified in advance by skeptics, because that word is used to move the goal posts when positive evidence for a paranormal claim is found. It's used as a post hoc strategy of debunking)

-There are flaws in the experimental design (they'll misrepresent the experiments, or invent imaginary and elaborate scenearios of fraud)

As an example and precedent, see this post by Dean Radin on Wiseman who accepted that remote viewing is "proven" but, it's still unacceptable:

http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2009/09/skeptic-agrees-that-remote-viewing-is.html

If normal, reliable, will-tested, widely accepted scientific standards that "prove" a paranormal claim is not enough, then what evidence would convince a "skeptic" like Wiseman?

To understand Wiseman and other skeptics' attitude, you have to fully realize that professional skeptics are defending an worldview (materialism) that essentially and logically implies the nonexistence of the paranormal.

And for psychological and philosophical reasons, worldviews are not abandoned by "evidence". For them, it's easier to think something wrong has to exist in the evidence, than questioning their own worldview.

As many of them are very intelligent, they'll employ their intelligence to rationalize and imagine improbable scenarios that "explain" (away?) the evidence in a way consistent with materialism.

Truth-seekers have to examine the data critically, objectively and carefully to know if it supports a survivalist interpretation or not. But, if positive evidence for survival is found, they're not obligated to convince "skeptics" and other anti-paranormal dogmatists.

[Andrew Davidson]

You know lately I have been just about transformed into a skeptic, Don't get me wrong I would love to believe in such a thing as life after death but I am becoming more unconvinced each day.

I've read various experiences on websites where people have been clinically dead for peroids of 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes or even 15 minutes and said they have experienced nothingness, just like a timeless void of absolutely nothing.

What I want to know is why is there way more stories about that type of experience than Seeing a Light or Seeing Spirits or people viewing their bodies from above? why is subject so elusive? I have become very discouraged about reading anything else paranormal related and starting to fear Death more and more each day.

[Andrew Davidson]

You know lately I have been just about transformed into a skeptic, Don't get me wrong I would love to believe in such a thing as life after death but I am becoming more unconvinced each day.

I've read various experiences on websites where people have been clinically dead for peroids of 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes or even 15 minutes and said they have experienced nothingness, just like a timeless void of absolutely nothing.

What I want to know is why is there way more stories about that type of experience than Seeing a Light or Seeing Spirits or people viewing their bodies from above? why is subject so elusive? I have become very discouraged about reading anything else paranormal related and starting to fear Death more and more each day.

[Andrew Davidson]

oops sorry didn't mean to double post.

[Michael Prescott]

"and said they have experienced nothingness, just like a timeless void of absolutely nothing."

Robert Crookall, who collected hundreds of personal accounts of OBEs and NDEs, noted that many people reported a brief period of "blackout" or "a void" while making the transition from being in the body to being out of the body. Possibly people who report a void while clinically dead are remembering this part of the experience.

"starting to fear Death more and more each day."

If death is nothingness, then there's nothing to fear. Nonexistence is a state you will never experience, because you won't be there to experience it -- so is it really scary?

At any rate, I think there is plenty of evidence for life after death -- more than enough to justify believing in it, if you are so inclined. (But not enough to compel you to believe in it if you aren't so inclined.)

[Andrew Davidson]

Michael it's nonexistence that I fear I am speaking only for myself but I really enjoy being alive and nonexisting is a pretty scarey thing to try to comprehend.

[steve wood]

I was recently talking to a patient in hospital opposite to where my elderly mother was being treated.We were having a a lively conversation about this, that and the other when he suddenly said,"You know, I was out of my body the other day when I had my heart attack. I was up at the ceiling watching. His wife who was sitting beside him nodded as if to confirm that he'd told her the same thing. Being naturally fascinated, I pressed him for a few details disguising my interest in the subject and playing the skeptic
Wasn't it just a dream or a hallucination?
"Oh NO, absolutely NOT," he said
What about a mind model, I suggested.
"A what?"
You know, your hearing which is the last sense to fail,enabled you to get information which your mind then made into an absolutely lifelike picture of your body and it's surroundings.
"Look, I was up at the bloody ceiling watching and there are no ifs or buts about it. I know what is real and what is not and I was up at the ceiling.
Okay, I said, I believe you.
"I don't care whether you believe me(he laughed)
This for me...this conviction that what they experience is real is enough. And if it happened to this chap, then I believe it will happen to all of us eventually.
The aware study is going to catch lots of these standard experiences,we just need two or three patients to go high enough, with a sense of curiousity.

[wvogt]

I very much sympathize with Mr. Andrew Davidson. I am repelled by the idea of annihilation, the more so since I lost my wife of 48 years two and one-half years ago. The thought of her absolute extinction is more repugnant to me than the thought of my own. Let me hasten to add that my situation has not led to wishful thinking and belief in an afterlife as much as it has to fear that survival is a chimera. Contrary to any wishful thinking arguments, the higher the stakes are raised, the shakier the ground feels under your feet.
Having said that, I strongly second what Michael Prescott has stated. Although they are intriguing, I think there is a danger in placing too much stock in near-death experiences. At best they would “prove” that a minority of people survive for an indeterminate length of time. I would advise exploring other avenues and Dr. Robert Crookall is a good place to start. Mr. Davidson, try to get your hands on a copy of Crookall's The Supreme Adventure. His writing style might not thrill you, but his arguments are robust.
To follow Crookall's line of reasoning one has to take communications from the “other side” seriously. But if this is done a solution to the problem of blank NDE's emerges. As Crookall says, in the earliest stages of death a temporary coma occurs because the soul body is in the process of disengaging from the physical body. During this time neither the soul mind nor the physical mind (there are two minds) is available as an instrument of consciousness. The length of time this process of disentanglement takes varies greatly from person to person. Therefore the coma may easily last longer than do the conditions that have brought on the physical crisis. Those whose comas are longer than their crisis will experience no NDE.

[Zetetic_chick]

Michael it's nonexistence that I fear I am speaking only for myself but I really enjoy being alive and nonexisting is a pretty scarey thing to try to comprehend.

If you fear nonexistence, then only the positions than implies that (like materialism) should bother you.

You know lately I have been just about transformed into a skeptic, Don't get me wrong I would love to believe in such a thing as life after death but I am becoming more unconvinced each day

What reasons have cause your transformation into skepticism?

If NDEs are the only piece of evidence for an afterlife, then your skepticism regarding survival would be justified. I'd be a skeptic about it too.

But if you study other pieces of evidence, like mediumship research, your skepticism and fear of nothingness should be overcame.

[william]

“Mr. Davidson, try to get your hands on a copy of Crookall's The Supreme Adventure. His writing style might not”

I second this recommendation Crookall’s book the supreme adventure is an extremely well documented book. From my point of view it is a must read for anyone that has a fear of not surviving what most call death but the other side believes when the real life begins. This book is a classic.

“Michael it's nonexistence that I fear I am speaking only for myself but I really enjoy being alive and nonexisting is a pretty scary thing to try to comprehend.”

You are speaking for more than just yourself most will not admit their fear of death. As a materialist it took years of research before I became comfortable with the belief that life after death exists. There is much evidence that life after death exists but finding that evidence is no easy task. Cross validating that evidence is an even more difficult task.

My wife and her sister’s experience at the bedside of their brother while he was passing highly suggests that there is more to this world than meets the eye. Her story along with 49 others will be coming out in a book in November.

It makes sense that we are more than our material body and it also (now) makes sense that there is more to this physical world than meets the eye. There appears to be profound meaning to our lives and even to our individual thoughts. We appear to be souls on a journey of expansion our consciousness and awareness. It even appears that as souls there are all different levels of souls that incarnate and reincarnate on this earth.

“Contrary to any wishful thinking arguments, the higher the stakes are raised, the shakier the ground feels under your feet.”

Very well stated. When I attend church with my friend I noticed one day that almost everyone in the church was old. Then I realized that I am considered old. That brought a smile to my face. But my point is that ground gets pretty shaky, as we grow into senior citizen status. Most turn to religion for comfort and I suspect the religion they were taught as a child. I have no data to support that statement just a hunch.

“Let me hasten to add that my situation has not led to wishful thinking and belief in an afterlife as much as it has to fear that survival is a chimera.”

If a life after this life is a chimera then my almost two decades of research were in vain and I have suffered the greatest of paradigm paralysis. If one does research into several areas of the paranormal a common pattern emerges. We are manifested with little awareness and the soul’s journey is an expansion of this awareness. How else could this Absolute most call God express itself in infinite forms without our unawareness?

It appears we are the expression of that that is or stated another way we are gods in the making. Interesting to me is the Adam and Eve story that the serpent told them if they eat from the tree of the wise or knowledge or wisdom they will become as gods knowing good from evil. And I always thought that myth was pure fantasy. Who knew not I?

We were created and manifested innocent and are always innocent in the mind of perfect awareness. I suspect this previous statement will go over like a lead balloon.

[Andrew Davidson]

Hi again, thanks for the recommendation on the Dr Robert Crookall books I will be sure to check them out.

I guess most of my life I've been Agnostic as my Belief System but I know people that are friends of Family Members who are Atheists and when you try to have a conversation with them they come across as arrogant and know-it-alls and laugh off anything Paranormal in nature.

This Belief System isn't appealing to me Atheism I mean I just want to try and rid the fear of Death and anything that can sway me in the other direction towards being a Believer that Survival of Conciousness at Death is true will go a long way in reducing that fear.

[Andrew Davidson]

Zetetic chick, sorry but mediumship hasn't really got me in the believers camp yet, If I was to throw around names I would say Joseph Tittel is a Medium that has blown me away for his accuracy when I've seen him on TV but one has to wonder how much editing has been done on these shows also.

I live in New Zealand and when British Medium Colin Fry was touring here I went to one of his shows just to see if this guy could do what he claimed, Well at the end of show I felt sorry for this guy cause he seemed so off the mark most of the time and was getting a lot more misses than hits that what he was doing looked nothing more than Cold Reading.

I don't think anyone really walked out of there that night saying wow Communication with Spirit Beings must be real, I am not saying I don't believe in it I am saying that just like with fruit there are bad apples and good apples, But with Mediumship there appears to be more bad ones than good ones I have to say.

[william]

“This Belief System isn't appealing to me Atheism I mean I just want to try and rid the fear of Death and anything that can sway me in the other direction towards being a Believer that Survival of Consciousness at Death is true will go a long way in reducing that fear.”

I actually studied the atheist’s beliefs and spent time in libraries doing research into what they believe and why they believe what they do. Quite frankly they don’t have much and they base most of their beliefs on science and materialism and have turned science into scientism. Also they often treat theories as facts such as Darwinism.

It is easy to be a materialist as the world sure does look very material but appearances can be so deceiving.

I remember reading one article in one journal where the author stated that science always deals with facts and their words are true or something to that effect. One only has to look at history to see the fallacy in that statement.

Also notice that the atheists are always attacking the bible. I think many atheists are more anti religious than a true atheist.

“But with Mediumship there appears to be more bad ones than good ones I have to say.”

I don’t think bad is the correct word here as most who are not out and out fraud have limited abilities that they are trying to pass off as great abilities. $$$$$ We all have limited and varying degrees of paranormal abilities. There have been some great ones but when radio and TV came into our lives and we not longer as a population were doing home circles we have very few in the world that have great mediumship abilities.

If you decide to study the history of mediumship you will find that many did not even know they had such abilities. Of course some had these abilities since childhood. You will also find many went out to debunk mediumship and found out that they had these abilities.

Also these abilities have to be evaluated over a period of time not just in one night, as there are several factors (many unknown) that affect their abilities. Studying the paranormal is not for the faint of heart. I have been studying spiritualism as part of my research into the paranormal for 9 years now and still learning.

[Michael M]

Andrew,

Their is a study going on right now with Dr. Julie Beischel, she is testing the claims of mediums. I think the experiment is a quintuple study. She is not testing to see if an afterlife/souls exist, but to see whether mediums can do what they claim. Its interesting to note that if she gets positive results their are a few possible scenarios: the survival hypothesis is correct, the medium is using super-psi, the medium might be using telepathy (I doubt this one.) Anyway, she does mention that if they obtain positive results, their is no way they can determine which hypothesis is correct. I think, at this point she mentioned something about 80%, the experiment is probably of to a good start.

[Andrew Davidson]

Hi Michael M, that study sounds interesting, Yeah the Super-PSI argument is what gets me doubting Mediumship as proof we survive physical death also, I would one day like to see conclusive evidence that rules out Super-PSI altogether some way and shows the Survival Hypothesis is right.

[Keith Augustine]

Since I've broken my silence on the most recent thread, I might as well pine in here with something I was tempted to post earlier:

"Moreover, I have another, and related, nagging concern about the cross-correspondences.... [O]ne feature of the cross-correspondences seems especially difficult to swallow. According to the survivalist interpretation, discarnate individuals orchestrate an intricate and obscure cross-correspondence among different mediums over an extended period, drawing on obscure but allegedly idiosyncratic classical and literary references and allusions. But if they could pull that off, couldn't they more easily (or just as easily) have provided a single medium with evidence that's not so perplexingly indirect--for example, incontrovertibly convincing and detailed straightforward manifestations of their surviving memories, personalities, interests, and activities?... And I find it hard to believe that Sidgwick, Gurney, and Myers, who were so consistently perspicacious in life, would in the next life fail to grasp this relatively simple point about evidential strength--especially if they were still cognitively sophisticated enough to assemble the more elaborate and sophisticated cross-correspondences." -- Stephen Braude, Immortal Remains, p. 99

Braude suspects that not even superpsi is necessary to account for the CC's, i.e., that they are amenable to normal explanations. And not because of any worldview purportedly blinding him to the evidence.

[The Major]

To me though, that's a little bit beside the point. The evidence has to be examined on its own terms. If there such a thing as an afterlife, we don't know how people are able to communicate or very little about it. It seems strange to dismiss evidence just because it doesn't fit our preconcieved notions.

It comes close to the why 'haven't they found Jimmy Hoffa' argument.

[Zetetic_chick]

Braude suspects that not even superpsi is necessary to account for the CC's, i.e., that they are amenable to normal explanations. And not because of any worldview purportedly blinding him to the evidence

The argument is not that whoever is critic or skeptical of certain pieces of evidence for survival is blinded by a worldview.

The argument is that people who hold a worldview that implies the nonexistence of the paranormal and afterlife is arguably biased by that worldview when examining the relevant evidence.

Thus Braude's skeptical position regarding cross correspondences as evidence for survival is not incompatible with "skeptics" who oppose the same evidence for philosophical (metaphysical) reasons, regardless of whether in addition they have other reasons to reject the evidence.

There are many reasons to oppose and resist evidence, and one of these reasons is a worldview incompatible with the evidence examined.

As a matter of fact, and to balance Keith Augustine's citation of Braude, in the end of his book and as a general conclusion of his critical scrutiny of the afterlife field, Braude wrote:

So, we've now weighed the evidence, taken an unusually thorough look at the Unusual Suspects, seriously entertained motivated super-psi interpretations of the data, and waded through the murky problems of crippling complexity. And I think we can say, with little assurance but with some justification, that the evidence provides a reasonable basis for believing in personal postmortem survival-- Stephen Braude, Immortal Remains, p.306

Braude's careful and moderate conclusion is not one that any "skeptic" like Wiseman, Randi, Shermer, Dawkins, Blackmore, Novella, Hyman, Kurtz, Nickell, or any CSICOP member would ever endorse or hold. The materialism of all of them is philosophically incompatible with a conclusion like that.

[Michael Prescott]

"But if they could pull that off, couldn't they more easily (or just as easily) have provided a single medium with evidence that's not so perplexingly indirect--for example, incontrovertibly convincing and detailed straightforward manifestations of their surviving memories, personalities, interests, and activities?"

It seems to me that some mediumistic communications do meet these criteria (the R-101 case, the Bobby Newlove case, and the book and newspaper tests conducted by Charles Drayton Thomas come to mind). But then the possibility of super-psi is invariably raised. The cross correspondences appear to be an attempt to defuse the super-psi argument by breaking up the messages and delivering the fragments via a variety of mediums.

[Keith Augustine]

As a matter of fact, and to balance Keith Augustine's citation of Braude, in the end of his book and as a general conclusion of his critical scrutiny of the afterlife field

Well duh.... I took it for granted that everyone knew that Immortal Remains was a defense of the survival hypothesis. So there's no need for "balance" as I wasn't suggesting that Braude rejected the survival hypothesis. I was pointing out that for this one piece of evidence, Braude didn't even think that some sort of psi explanation was necessary to account for it. That's all, and rather telling particularly because Braude has no anti-survival bias. So it must be something about the CC's themselves that give Braude pause, no?

[Michael M]

Keith,

I dont understand the Braude quote. In fact, I dont even know if he researched mediums in a lab. Dr. Beischel is CURRENTLY studying the claims of mediums and the protocols are tight that no information, suggestion, fraud, etc. would tamper with the experiment. I await the results just like AWARE, and Melvin Morses Remote viewing experiment before reaching a conclusion.

[MrEvidential]

Mr. Prescott,

I've been thinking a lot lately about the problem of how gifted mediums like Leonora Piper somehow couldn't manage to give information from a sealed letter. Piper attempted to do this with Hodgson's test letter and failed. The same goes with Ian Stevenson's lock tests. What do you believe is the explanation for these failures?

Also, here's a suggestion for a post: Demolish this essay by Martin Gardner called William James and Mrs. Piper in his book The Night is Large (http://books.google.com/books?id=oXEaTdstD7gC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false). It's a long essay with much more substance than the previous drivel you debunked.

[Michael Prescott]

"What do you believe is the explanation for these failures?"

I don't know, but it does seem as if the process of mediumistic communication is much more complex and difficult than it might appear. It seems as if the communicating entity has to "lower its vibrations" (whatever that means) in order to take control of the medium's brain. In so doing, the communicator enters a slowed-down state in which his mind does not work as clearly as it otherwise would. The impression I get is that the communicator is in a sort of trance (as is the medium, in trance mediumship). In this state, it can be difficult to convey ideas or even to recollect certain facts.

Moreover, the communicator normally speaks through the medium, a process that requires him to suggest an idea to the medium's brain, which then translates this idea into words. These words may not fit the idea exactly -- or at all, if a mistranslation occurs.

Thus, in the book and newspaper tests conducted by Charles Drayton Thomas with the medium Gladys Obsorne Leonard, the general sense of the targeted passages could be conveyed, but not the specific words.

Still, one would think that if the medium can convey some sense of the content of a book in another house, or of tomorrow's newspaper which has not yet been set in type, she ought to be able to convey some sense of the content of a sealed letter.

Offhand I don't know if the sealed letter test was ever tried with Gladys Osborne Leonard as the test subject. Given her proficiency with the book and newspaper tests, maybe she could have pulled it off!

[Zerdini]

William wrote: "Studying the paranormal is not for the faint of heart. I have been studying spiritualism as part of my research into the paranormal for 9 years now and still learning."

On this point I am in complete agreement - it is not for the faint of heart.

I have studied the paranormal for fifty years during which time it has been my good fortune to see, and get to know, some of the best mediums in the world. I base that statement on their consistency and accuracy.

I could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

On the other hand there have been those who had good days and bad days yet still produced excellent survival evidence.

In my view, the best survival evidence has been (as Paul said in an earlier post) through Independent Direct Voice mediumship.

Two of the best examples are Leslie Flint in the UK and Emily French in the USA. The former always allowed tape recordings to be made of his seances and the latter was investigated by lawyer Edward Randall, who sat with her over a period of 22 years, and had all communications recorded by a stenographer.

Regarding full-form materialisations there has been only one who stood head and shoulders above the rest and that is the Welsh medium, Alec Harris whom I met in South Africa.

I have read the claims particularly by Victor Zammit that David Thompson, currently based in Sydney, is a materialisation medium but Thompson has admitted to me, in writing, that he is not a full-form materialisation medium.

I have attended one of his seances which are always held in total darkness and they bear no relation to a real materialisation seance which has to be held in some form of lighting so that everything can be seen by all present.

I mention this only because it has come to my attention that Thompson will be in Florida, in November, at the Shrine of the Master, Church of Metaphysical Christianity, 852 South Tuttle Avenue, Sarasota, Florida giving seances advertised as materialisation seances which they are not.

Mediumship is a rare ability which is why there are so few first-class mediums.

Yes it is true that psychics are in abundance but they are NOT mediums.

[sbu]

Regarding full-form materialisations there has been only one who stood head and shoulders above the rest and that is the Welsh medium, Alec Harris whom I met in South Africa.

Did you actually witness a materialisation? Can I ask of what?

[Zerdini]

"Did you actually witness a materialisation? Can I ask of what?"

Yes I did. About a dozen people materialised during the three hour seance - men, women and children.

[Paul]

follow that... :)

[Dissertation Literature Review]

Blogs are so informative where we get lots of information on any topic. Nice job keep it up!!

[sbu]

>Yes I did. About a dozen people >materialised during the three hour seance -> men, women and children.

Did you make any recordings of this - it would be interesting to inspect.

How did they appear? Foggy or how? Why do you think he isn't a fraud? Was the room securely locked before the session started?

[Michael Prescott]

Many years ago, at Camp Chesterfield (a community of psychics and mediums), researchers used infrared photography to film a materialization séance in which multiple figures appeared. When the film was developed, they saw the medium's accomplices (adults and children) sneaking into and out of the pitch-dark room through a hidden door.

I'm not saying the same thing happened in the case Zerdini describes. But I can't rule it out either. Until such phenomena can be captured on film or observed in good light, there will always be doubts.

[Zerdini]

Actually, Michael, I posted the Camp Chesterfield expose on a Spiritualist forum not that long ago.

The similarity, between that and the Alec Harris seance I attended in the 1960's,is as someone once wrote, "as a locomotive is to a teapot".

By the way, the seance was conducted in good light.

I can rule out all the theories about hidden doors etc as the seance took place in the upstairs bedroom of their very ordinary house and I checked everything very thoroughly beforehand.

[Zerdini]

sbu wrote: "Did you make any recordings of this - it would be interesting to inspect.

How did they appear? Foggy or how? Why do you think he isn't a fraud? Was the room securely locked before the session started?"

They appeared as people. Foggy? Are you thinking of some ghotly form? they were quite substantial and solid beings.

Yes the room was securely locked.

One person who was chatting to me for about ten to fifteen minutes, and whose hands I held quite tightly, simply dematerialised through my fingers leaving me with closed fists.

I did not record any of it as I believe it is the evidence that counts and I was not trying to convince anyone else.

I recorded the events in writing and my account has appeared in a number of books and magazines over the years.