Thought for the day

On the comments thread of my post "Rovin', " there's been an interesting debate in progress between Keith Augustine and some of our regular commenters. I've found it enjoyable to follow along.

There's no doubt it can be irritating to encounter someone who disagrees with one's own views, especially if those views are deeply held. On the other hand, it's worth remembering that the other person's views are just as deeply and sincerely held, and he may feel equally irritated by us!

Just today I was rereading Michael Tymn's excellent book The Articulate Dead, an overview of early studies in mediumship, and I came across a purportedly channeled quote from Claude's Book (1919), by L. Kelway-Bamber. The discarnate Claude, communicating to his mother, says of his afterlife environs:

What makes this place so interesting is the variety of the people in it, just as the [earthly] world is interesting for the same reason. It would be dull if human beings were all exactly of the same stereotyped pattern physically and mentally. I think that is what made the old idea of the conventional heaven so uninviting.

It's a commonplace thought, in a way, yet the truth it expresses is all too easily forgotten.

By the way, the complete text of Claude's Book is available in PDF form here.

I reviewed Michael Tymn's book here.

Comments

[Michael Duggan]

I've just revisited the Rovin thread. I had left it around a week ago assuming it had come to an end!!
The level of debate is excellent, although a little heated on occasion. It's excellent that these discourses are archived, as there is a lot of supurb material that emerges when opinions are allowed to compete with each other.
M.

[william]

“It would be dull if human beings were all exactly of the same stereotyped pattern physically and mentally.”

If indeed the evolution of consciousness process with almost an infinite number of experiences with each experience altering the consciousness to some degree appears to create unique souls. This is why I stated several comments ago that maybe nature is an incubator for this evolution of consciousness process. The more we look into nature we find that every living form has a degree of consciousness.

I have always felt even as a child that nature has more to do with reality and our very Being then we give it credit for.

“What makes this place so interesting is the variety of the people in it, just as the [earthly] world is interesting for the same reason.”

My research indicates that like attracts like on the other side so this variety of people this person is experiencing sounds like a soul that may be on a level of consciousness development of the third realm which I suspect most humans now residing on earth are at this level of development. I am not suggesting this is about intellectual development but divine or spiritual intelligence as an indicator of the level of consciousness development of a soul.

[Michael Tymn]

Michael,

Thanks for the plug. Speaking of conflicting views, I just finished reading "The Priest and The Medium" by Suzanne Giesemann. It is about Anne Gehman, one of the best Spiritualist mediums in the U.S., and Wayne Knoll, a former Jesuit priest with a Ph.D. from Harvard who taught at Georgetown for many years.

Every other chapter is about one or the other's development in her/his calling. Finally, near the end they meet up and get married. The last 30 or so pages set forth their dialogue as to how they have reconciled their viewpoints.

[william]

“My research indicates that like attracts like on the other side so this variety of people this person is experiencing sounds like a soul that may be on a level of consciousness development of the third realm which I suspect most humans now residing on earth are at this level of development.” William.

“I AM living on the third Sphere or Plane; we call it "Summerland,"
and some people "Paradise."

Guess it pays to read first then comment.

[sonic]

Micheal,
this is beautiful. Take this with the interesting anecdote about C.D. Broad from 'rovin' and I think you get to the heart of the matter regarding 'life after life'.

[william]

Some quotes and comments from Claude’s Book.

“There are beautiful birds and exquisite flowers, and many
pleasures. I go boating and golfing, but one must not take life in any form, so I no longer fish.”

This should make all the golfers happy. Or not; golfing can be a very frustrating game if taken seriously.

“In the spiritual socialism that will be law in my Arcadia on earth
some day, both the theoretical and practical men will realize their
responsibilities to each other and will live to right wrong.”

Hmm socialism in the third realm? We may indeed be our brothers keeper. But we must always keep in mind give a man his fish and we stifle his progress but teach a man to fish and we enhance his progress as a soul. From my point of view it is a very delicate balance between socialism and capitalism. Maybe there is something to that middle path the Buddha taught.

“We might write a novel together too, and call it "The Growth of a
Soul," and trace its evolution through various incarnations. You and I have been through many together (in different connections,
relationships, and sexes); that's why we are so particularly in affinity with one another.”

It would be interesting to know if this person believed in reincarnation while on earth. This also could be very upsetting to the religious neo cons to think that their wife in this life may have been their brother or mother in their last life. Ouch.

“He tells me he was driven positively mad by his wife; contempt and loathing ended in hate of her.”

Could this be a rerun of the Jon and Kate plus eight story?

“YOU want to know how it is I now believe in reincarnation, and say
that other spirits you find do not? Well, darling, we are still very far from ultimate truth, and people here vary in their opinions and ideas just as they did on earth. We are still learning,”

One life on earth does not appear to be enough to learn all the lessons we need to learn to advance into these higher realms of existence.

“I am told by friends here, that souls are sometimes reborn,
reincarnated, in order to gain further experience, learn more lifelessons, or work out past sins and failings.”

The word sometimes reborn is interesting. Maybe all souls are not reborn and some decide to take a slower or different approach to knowledge than living on the earth plane.

Of course this is one spirit’s communication through a medium and if I have learned nothing else in my research one must walk softly and carefully about putting all your eggs into one basket, so to speak.

[Hope Rivers]

"Of course this is one spirit’s communication through a medium and if I have learned nothing else in my research one must walk softly and carefully about putting all your eggs into one basket, so to speak."

Probably a wise decision William but as for the reincarnation theory, when spirits speak saying things like, "it APPEARS one life is not enough" etc and "my mates told me souls are reborn" it does sound like a guessing game, maybe just a lark for eternal confusion.

Why is the majority of spirit communication so much like gossip and generally useless information. If people of scientific mind cross over, say those of yesteryear who's interest and life studies were all about proving another dimension, how and why it exists and what is it's form, why havent any of their big questions been answered? and if they have why are they not sharing it with us?.

One would think people like Charles Richet and Sir Oliver Lodge even Meyers would have come into the "all knowing" phenomena encountered with NDE and would be trying to communicate the much required and sought after information that eluded them whilst alive. But one would wonder if they were to manifest through a medium, if they too would give you no more than, their personality, description of life on earth, the friends they hang out with in summerland in its most splendard form and whatever other thing most deceased spirits tend to rehash.

There seems to be a many holes in the afterlife/spirit being saga, especially the passage from all knowing, to knowing not much and if fact back to similar earth conditions but with a fairytale background.

Having had a Near death like experience myself and even having the spirit being I met during the experience at the time manifest approximately a year later through a lady with clairvoyant like abilities, I still have my doubts because of all the contradictions.

I even thought NDE's are a spirit's telepathic thought projection into the mind's of those having the experience, therefore its really more like an intercepted dream thats become lucid and controlled.

Maybe this could explain the variety and bizarre stuff sometimes incurred during them. Anyway the thing is Near Deather's never die at the time as they come back to tell the story but the fact that there are people like me who have had them without being technically dead or on the fringe of death, say's something which also needs to be considered seriously.

Obviously I don't believe it's just a dream, maybe I would have had the spirit encounter not occured sometime later, this too me was proof I spoke with a "real entity", but the locality at that time has been my biggest doubt, was it real or superimposed?.

[william]

“but as for the reincarnation theory, when spirits speak saying things like, "it APPEARS one life is not enough" etc and "my mates told me souls are reborn" it does sound like a guessing game, maybe just a lark for eternal confusion.”

I used the word appears not the entity coming through the medium. My take on reincarnation at this time is that it is a reality for most souls but not all souls. If reincarnation is not a reality I suspect I will not be that upset. My research indicates that there is a high probability that reincarnation is a reality.

I suspect most people are not all that thrilled about reincarnation while we are living a life here in the physical world. But I also suspect that looking at reincarnation and another life on earth from the other side is not such a bleak reality. Kind of like another adventure rather than a struggle of pain and suffering. I.e. the view is different from the other side where time is a different reality.

“One would think people like Charles Richet and Sir Oliver Lodge even Meyers would have come into the "all knowing" phenomena encountered with NDE”

I disagree with the all-knowing status whether it is an NDE or spirit communication from the other side. There is no doubt that an NDE is a profound experience but all knowing it is not. I believe that Myers did indeed come back through many mediums through cross correspondence and relate what he had learned from the other side. Of course my operational definition of an all knowing status is pure awareness and the creative power that goes with that all knowing status.

“There seems to be a many holes in the afterlife/spirit being saga, especially the passage from all knowing, to knowing not much and if fact back to similar earth conditions but with a fairytale background.”

This is why I believe one must walk carefully and analyze carefully as wishful thinking and conditioned beliefs that can overwhelm the rational mind. Like attracts like in this third dimension so different entities can give us completely different views of their reality even through they reside in the same realm of existence. Kind of like this physical world two people living on the same planet can have almost totally opposite views of reality.

I also suspect that the fairytale background is indeed looked upon by new arrivals as a fairytale after living a life on this earth that is often harsh for most humans.

[Houston]

"My take on reincarnation at this time is that it is a reality for most souls but not all souls."

No time=No 're' incarnation

William's research versus Elias...Elias sounds a lot smarter than the so called smart ones...who are pushing linear reincarnation, don't you think?

ELIAS: “Remanifestation is not reincarnation. They are entirely different elements, for there is no reincarnation. You also think in terms of sequence, which this also holds no relevance within non-physical terms. Therefore, your questions lead to a direction of asking, (humorously) ‘If I die, I move to an area of confusion and chaos. I await a small time period within this confusion. Great masters and teachers approach me and express truths to me. Then I am knowledgeable, and choose to be born.’ No! You do not move in these terms. You are a new creation. You do not!”

“I have expressed to you that you do not reincarnate. Each focus is of itself a new creation, independent within personality. You have not been manifest over and over and over again, but you have been always; for outside of your present recognized reality, there is no time frame as you understand it. Therefore, what was, is. You are then as you are now also. Subjectively, you are aware, to a point, of your other focuses. They do not all occupy the same time framework as you, but they all occur now.”

“Many individuals speak of reincarnational lifetimes. I find this terminology to be inadequate, as all of your focuses are simultaneous. They only appear to not be simultaneous within your identification of linear time frameworks. You understand time within this dimension in a certain type of definition. In actuality, all of your focuses of essence are occurring within this present now.”

“Within your thought process, you have created a linear time framework in this dimension. Therefore, you think of these focuses linearly, one lifetime following another lifetime, and that you – that you identify as you now presently – is participating in each of these lifetimes. This is the belief: that you are born into a focus, you continue through this focus, you die, you are born again, you continue, you die, you are born again, and so the cycle continues. In actuality, ALL of your focuses are occurring NOW. They are not linear. Therefore, in one respect, you ARE all of these focuses as essence. In another respect, you are this focus that you identify as yourself, and all of these other focuses are occurring now also. Therefore, they are each individually themselves.”

This enters into a difficult area, for you continue to think in terms of reincarnation. Remanifestation is not reincarnation. They are entirely different elements, for there is no reincarnation. You also think in terms of sequence, which this also holds no relevance within non-physical terms.

‘If I die, I move to an area of confusion and chaos. I await a small time period within this confusion. Great masters and teachers approach me and express truths to me. Then I am knowledgeable, and choose to be born.’ No! You do not move in these terms. You are a new creation. You do not reincarnate!

So what we refer to as our past lives are just other selves? They are other focuses.

Well, what happened with Lydia and Tweety when Tweety was born? So what happened to the personality of Lydia? The personality of Lydia was not assimilated. It was not swallowed by Tweety! Other aspects of Tweety and of Lydia continue within personality, within their own individual directions. The merged aspects of consciousness create a new personality aspect of the joined focuses.

So that would be where the new comes in, but then aspects of Lydia and Tweety continue? Correct; not losing their individuality or integrity.

This is the area that enters you into your belief systems of reincarnation, which there is no reincarnation. You do not enter into a focus and disengage and continue by entering into another focus. This is linear thought process, which is also a belief system. Therefore, there is no linear succession. It is almost – underline ‘almost’ – an illusion. It is a reality within this dimension.

“Elias, I wanted to ask you about disengagement. When you choose to disengage, do you always have a different physical being afterwards, or could you have none? I don’t understand. Ah! We move into the belief system of reincarnation! There is no reincarnation, for there is no ‘thing’ to be reincarnated! Each focus is a new, unique expression. It is not a used part!”

Therefore, I express to you also, all of your focuses occur simultaneously. You merely hold the perception within this dimension that you move in the direction of linear time in sequence. You are born, you live, you die, you move into non-physical focus, you are born, you live, you die, you move into intermission, you are born, you live, you die. Very incorrect!

ALL of your focuses are occurring simultaneously. This be the reason that you may access all of them, for all time is simultaneous. It is not linear; it is sideways. You may step sideways – not forward, not backward, but sideways – and you may view the other you’s, which are not you, for they are also uniquely individual focuses of essence, but you are also, and each focus contains all of essence. Therefore, you ARE the other focus ... but you are not!

In this, as the individual focus chooses to be disengaging, you do not ‘return,’ so to speak. But I shall express to you that the reason that you have developed this belief system of reincarnation is that as – within linear time – you as you choose to be disengaging from this physical manifestation, you move into a non-physical area of consciousness, and you may project an aspect of you which shall be manifest physically. This is a new creation. It is not you. It is its own new creation, and although within this physical dimension it appears to be appearing within linear time, it is not.

I shall express to you that all of your focuses are occurring simultaneously. Therefore, there is no reincarnation, for you are not manifesting again from used parts!
Could you talk to us about reincarnation? This is a difficult subject matter for individuals within this physical dimension, for you have created very strong belief systems in the area of reincarnation. Now; I shall initially express to you that reincarnation, in the manner that it is expressed in your philosophy, is a belief system. It does not occur in the manner that you express to yourselves within your ideas.
Time is simultaneous. Time is an element which has been created in consciousness, and therefore is, in a manner of speaking, an entity in itself, but it is also relative to each physical dimension in its expression and its movement. In this particular physical dimension, you create the perception and the movement of time in linear fashion. Now; let me also clarify in this area. The perception is your thought process of how time moves. It is your identification of the element of time and its movement in a fashion of forward. This is what we express as linear time. It moves in a line. You move from past to present to future, and all of your reality is encompassed by this creation of the movement of time. Therefore, even your language moves in conjunction with your creation of time.

Once you move outside of this physical dimension, the element of time is not relative any longer. Therefore, it is not created in the same manner. This moves in conjunction with your belief system of reincarnation, for you view your reality to be moving through moments of time that you record as history. You also have created a perception of memory, which allows you recall of events and experiences, which also moves in a linear fashion. In this, your perception of death as not being a final discontinuation of yourself moves into an identification of a return or a remanifestation, for you continue a thought process in a linear fashion.

In actuality, you do hold many focuses, that which you identify as lifetimes. This relates to your belief system of reincarnation, for within this belief system, you believe that you manifest, or that you are born, and you move through a particular focus and you die, and you are born again and you move through and you die, and you repeat and you repeat and you repeat.

What I am expressing to you is that in actuality, all of your focuses are occurring now. You do not manifest or create being born, and move through a focus and create death, and subsequently remanifest. They are all occurring now, for all of reality is occurring now.

The element of time in linear fashion is a creation that is relative to this particular physical dimension and has been quite purposefully inserted into this physical reality. This is not to say that they are remanifesting. They are merely projecting an aspect of their consciousness into another area of physical reality to be experiencing that element of physical reality.

In this, individuals also create a belief system that they may be reincarnated into a creature. You do not remanifest as a creature.

I shall express to you, no, this is not your final reincarnational focus, for you do not hold ANY reincarnational focuses, for you do not reincarnate! All of your focuses are manifest simultaneously NOW.

Are you the designation of the final focus of essence within this particular dimension? Yes. This is not to say that any other manifestation in this dimension of your essence shall be remanifest, for it shall not, for no focus remanifests, for there is no reincarnation.

At the moment that any individual focus chooses to be disengaging from this physical dimension, it chooses also to be moving into other areas of consciousness. It does not repeat and remanifest within this physical dimension. This would be quite redundant and quite unnecessary! You are manifesting many focuses of essence within this physical dimension. Therefore, it is unnecessary for any particular focus to be remanifesting into this physical dimension.

But if we have complete freedom, then isn’t it possible that we could decide to incarnate again? In what you may term to be the realm of possibility, yes. I shall express to you that you do not, for it is unnecessary. There is limitless consciousness to be exploring within self.

Therefore, as you incorporate an exploration of this one physical dimension, why shall you be creating a redundant action and repeating your exploration, as you ARE essence and you ARE experiencing all of your other focuses within this physical dimension also?

Q:When one disengages and has a transition or whatever, what happens to that consciousness? I understand it continues on. Does it reincarnate again? Does it go somewhere else? Do we make another focus somewhere else that somehow incorporates the thoughts or the memories or the consciousness? What happens to that personality?

A: What would be the point of reincarnation? Since they’re all simultaneous, anyway. And also it would be quite redundant. You have experienced what you chose to experience and explored what you chose to explore, and they are all simultaneous. In this, each attention continues in whatever exploration it chooses.

Q: Do any of them choose to come back to this physical plane a second time?
A: No. Once again, that would be redundant. Let me express to you, my friend, you are not learning; therefore, do not misunderstand. But were you to engage a class within a school and you moved through that course of study, so to speak, and completed that course of study, what would be the point to engage it again, but to be redundant? You have already accomplished. You have already engaged the course of study. You have offered yourself the information and you have completed. Therefore, you choose to move to another experience.

Q: So if we have thousands of individual focuses that are scattered down through the time line within this particular physical reality, when they disengage they usually don’t usually come back to this physical reality, they just move on to different areas of consciousness?
A: Correct. Many individuals experience much challenge and difficulty in attempting to understand outside of the expression of sequences of events and linear time, for this is what you know and this is what you are experiencing.

In this, as the individual focus chooses to be disengaging, you do not "return," so to speak. But I shall express to you that the reason that you have developed this belief system of reincarnation is that as – within linear time – you as you choose to be disengaging from this physical manifestation, you move into a non-physical area of consciousness, and you may project an aspect of you which shall be manifest physically. This is a new creation. It is not you. It is its own new creation, and although within this physical dimension it appears to be appearing within linear time, it is not. All of this action is occurring presently.

But more specifically, let me explain to you that the individual focus of attention of that individual shall not be reincorporated in manifestation within your physical reality, for reincarnation is a belief. In actuality, this does not occur. Each individual is a unique attention of essence and chooses what direction it shall engage, but each attention does not repeat or re-manifest within any particular physical dimension or area of consciousness, for it is unnecessary.

Q: I understand. So the question should be that Esmeralda has strong probabilities that she will make or send a new focus to my brother.
A: Yes, but it shall not be that focus that you identify as your father.

These are concepts that do not translate well into your physical language and understanding in thought processes, but there is no loss of energy signature or integrity, in your terms, of the individuality of yourself as you choose to be disengaging.

In this, I have expressed also previously, there is no reincarnation or remanifestation, for you each, as a focus of essence, are not produced, so to speak, from used parts. Each of you is unique and an expression of self and may not be, in physical terms, compromised.

Therefore, as each focus chooses disengagement, that focus — that personality and uniqueness of vibrational quality of consciousness and tone — continues in its creations nonphysically, and it continues to hold its uniqueness in quality and its element of free will and choice. Therefore, it continues to create its reality in the manner that it chooses, in whichever direction it chooses to move into.

This is a difficult concept, for you think in terms of “entities.” You think in terms of corporeal expressions, which limits your understanding of how you may be an individual focus of essence, and also simultaneously, you are all of essence. There is no separation. But as to your question of retaining your individuality and your integrity, yes, you do.

Q: And how many times can a spirit ... I mean, does a spirit ever not return?
A: Quite! Let me also clarify to you, it is not a question of returning. This is an incorporation of the belief of reincarnation, and you do not reincarnate within any physical dimension.

You term this to be a lifetime, which also reinforces your belief system in reincarnation, but you believe the concept of reincarnation, for in this particular physical dimension, you create the movement of linear time.

Now; do not confuse yourself in the idea of karma. Let me express to you that the establishment of religious beliefs throughout your globe have been created with a base element of truth, but they have also all incorporated belief systems which are distortions of those truths. Another example of a distortion of truth is the belief of karma. The distortion of this action is the concept of karma, in which the belief is set forth that as you create any element of harmfulness, that shall also be visited upon you, and that this is a law of the universe, which it is not.

ELIAS: “As I expressed previously, you are not ‘used material.’ You are new. Every focus, every manifestation, is new and becoming. It is not previously used. Therefore, you may hold what you term to be past or future lives, which are also counterparts of you, but you are not them and they are not you, for you have not lived, in your terms, before; for the organization of consciousness that is manifest within you is new and individual only to you, and will never be repeated and has been never repeated, although has existed always.”

LISA: “I have a question. Can you explain to me a bit about karma? I was brought up to believe that there is such a thing.
A: This is a very common belief system within your reality presently. As you have moved into this century and the beginning throes of your shift in consciousness, you have developed new belief systems which suggest to you alternates for those religious belief systems that you have held for many centuries. You view these to be new enlightened belief systems, although you do not believe that they ARE belief systems. In actuality, there is no karma. There is no moving from one focus to another focus. There is no repaying of debt. All focuses are simultaneous. Therefore, you are not reborn. You are a new creation in yourself, and shall never be recreated into another creation. You may create an aspect of yourself that shall continue within physical focus, but it shall be its own creation and it shall also be a new creation. You are not used parts! (Laughter) You are continuously creating anew. It is merely your own belief systems that dictate to you that you hold karmic debt.”

PSEUDO: Can you tell me how old my soul is, my essence? What century?

ELIAS: I shall explain to you, essence holds no age.

[TomC]

i found this article and it sort of pertains to this post as long as previous post about the boy who remembered past life.

Reincarnation: A Debate

[Hope Rivers]

Both William and Houston have different "spirit" sources which has led to their assumptions, both different to each other, how about what Jesus Christ said, "man is appointed to only live once", now he claimed to be God, therefore all knowing. So here we have three very different bits of information one has to ponder with the question, why? who is telling the truth? it can only be one truth, so then it makes the other two a lie, again why?

[Barbara]

In Matthew 11:14,Jesus says that John the Baptist is "Elijah who is to come."

Some interpret this as a message of reincarnation. The quote about being appointed to live once is from Hebrews (Old Testament).

Since the bible is full of contradictions, you have to pick and choose the bits you like, which spoils its authority.

[Michael Prescott]

"The quote about being appointed to live once is from Hebrews (Old Testament)."

Hebrews is in the New Testament. It's a letter to early Christian churches by an unknown apostle (sometimes conjectured to be Paul or Barnabas).

[william]

“Therefore, what was, is. You are then as you are now also. Subjectively, you are aware, to a point, of your other focuses.”

Focuses or reincarnation? We are playing here with operational definitions of words or concepts.

Therefore, there is no linear succession. It is almost – underline ‘almost’ – an illusion. It is a reality within this dimension.

Technically he is correct here there is no linear succession. Tell that to your boss next time you are late for work and see how that works out for you. Or don’t pay any attention to a stoplight and when the cop stops you state to him my guru says there is no linear succession.

Please note he states linear succession is a reality within this dimension. I would state that linear succession is a “perceived” reality within this dimension and I suspect to some degree in other dimensions. The higher the level of dimension the less the perception of a linear succession. I believe that linear succession is a reality within other dimensions but becomes less of a factor as our consciousness moves to these higher dimensions. I.e. we have “attained more” of this pure awareness.

I like his statement “almost an illusion” as in my mind illusion is a poor description of life as we experience it. Duality is an “illusion” what we have is variation and that variation is based or created in ignorance i.e. unawareness. No unawareness no us.

“There is no reincarnation, for there is no ‘thing’ to be reincarnated! Each focus is a new, unique expression. It is not a used part!”

Every experience of our life (yes the appearance of linear experiences) makes us a new unique expression of consciousness. We are not the same person (consciousness) today as we were yesterday. He is technically correct here; there is no “thing” to be reincarnated. From my point of view this is a play on words and concepts. Again he is technically correct but; at this stage of our ego identification we souls are more comfortable being a “thing, i.e. identity” than a focus.

“Therefore, you ARE the other focus ... but you are not!”

Not this not that. Age old teachings. The paradox of life. The mystery of life. In my terms there is only Isness and we are an expression of that Isness. That Isness is infinite therefore technically there is no time only now. But for this Infinite (no time) to express its potential in an infinite variety of expressions linear time appears to exist.

“Time is simultaneous. Time is an element, which has been created in consciousness”

The statement “time is simultaneous” is somewhat incorrect as time suggests sequence and time as an absolute reality does not exist. Indeed time has been created in consciousness. Consciousness experiences time, pure awareness does not. Stated another way pure awareness experiences time or the “illusion” of time through the creative process of the evolution of consciousness.

“PSEUDO: Can you tell me how old my soul is, my essence? What century?
ELIAS: I shall explain to you, essence holds no age.”

The soul is eternal (has born date like bud the beer) the essence of the soul which is spirit has no age as it is infinite. It would be impossible to put a century on the age of a soul as where did a soul first gain the perception of a unique identity. And what awareness existed in the evolution of that consciousness before that soul gained a focus, illusion, perception or whatever of a unique identity.

These teachings of Elias are of the Advaita type and from my point of view most (not all) who hold to these teachings fail to understand the evolution of a soul or the origin of our ignorance, which is innocence. Only out of ignorance (unawareness) do we perceive ourselves to be separate from one another.

This is why the universal law of Oneness must apply to all aspects of life or whatever ideology we incorporate will self-destruct. We are witness to that self-destruction now here in America with our economic ideologies and of course in Iran with their religious ideology. Universal or spiritual laws apply to all aspects of life. How could they not there is only infinite Oneness.

“So here we have three very different bits of information one has to ponder with the question, why? who is telling the truth? it can only be one truth, so then it makes the other two a lie, again why?”

The why question can lead us down some long and often lonely paths but what would life be without those unique paths. What is loneliness but a desire to be home i.e. at one with Oneness? Think of truth as having degrees of truth. The ultimate truth cannot be defined for to try to define infinite is to limit infinite and of course Infinite (God) has no limitations.

Dr Hora taught one must ask, “What is the meaning of what appears to be?” rather than why. I might suggest asking why several times usually three to five times gives us a better focus on what may be closer to truth. We can only approach truth we cannot define truth. Ouch.

As far as Jesus one has to study the history of the Christian religion and find out that the concept of reincarnation may have been removed from the bible when Rome took over the Catholic Church. Many maybe hundreds of thousands of people died for teaching or even saying the word reincarnation. If one reads closely in the bible Jesus did mention whom John the Baptist was in a previous life.

Hope that is the challenge of this research; it is not for the faint of heart. Eighteen years into this research and a lifetime of wondering about life and I still catch myself asking why rather than asking what is the meaning of what appears to be. What would our life be if we knew all truths and had all knowing? I.e. no us? Would it be pure awareness and static? We are and must be created innocent of our true reality. If we were not created innocent of our true reality (i.e. Oneness) this life force we call God would not be creative and therefore dynamic but static potential

One final note these are my views and I do not claim them to be absolute truths. Some on this blog somehow think that I think I am giving absolute truths. That would be naïve and pure arrogance to think such a thing. I am trying hard to change my writing style and I suspect my consciousness to not give that impression to others. The journey is in the process not the destination. Stated another way General Motors failed to understand this universal law of life is about first and foremost process not just results. Kaizen.

Dare I say that maybe even Elias is not giving absolute truth. Naw.

“Since the bible is full of contradictions, you have to pick and choose the bits you like, which spoils its authority.”

Also the bible has been given many different interpretations and changes. As mark twain stated “God made man in his image and then man returned the favor.”

Apologize for the long post but this to me at least these are interesting and challenging discussions.

[Houston]

It seems that Elias has ruffled your belief feathers William. How arrogant to think that you "know" better, and to start correcting.

Just because you believe time is linear in some other world does not make it so, my friend. It seems that people who "just know" that reincarnation is a "reality" will go to any length to protect that belief...even illogical thinking and injecting more of their own "beliefs" (research). Time is linear in a spiritual world? What's this based on? More "high level" teachings from "advanced" spirits who don't get it?

After reading your post it seems Elias is right..."You view these to be new enlightened belief systems, although you do not believe that they ARE belief systems."

ROFL! You do not believe that what you "believe" is nothing more than another belief system! Elias' statement pretty much answers all of your last post.

[Houston]

Oh and I forgot...

"As far as Jesus one has to study the history of the Christian religion and find out that the concept of reincarnation may have been removed from the bible when Rome took over the Catholic Church."

-Trouble is, when you look at both sides of the story, there isn't very much to support your comment other than conjecture..and creation of nonexistent documents. Also, I should ask you, even if what you wrote actually WERE TRUE...would that somehow make reincarnation a reality? Does something become "true" simply by the number of people who "believe" it? How? Or does it become "true" by how long ago some people believed it? How?

"...most (not all) who hold to these teachings fail to understand the evolution of a soul or the origin of our ignorance, which is innocence."

-I see. So, evolution of "soul" is dependant on linear time and reincarnation is it? Maybe in your belief it is.

"In Matthew 11:14,Jesus says that John the Baptist is "Elijah who is to come." "

-Really? If you don't trust whatever else it's written that Jesus Christ said, why do you trust this? You should do some "two sided" research into "reincarnation and the bible" before you reach conclusions based on illusions.

[Houston]

Sorry...

"If one reads closely in the bible Jesus did mention whom John the Baptist was in a previous life."

-Hmmm. So which is it? Reincarnation was removed from the bible or it wasn't? Reincarnationists always claim it was "removed" yet for all the "evidence" they find of it in the bible, you would think somebody didn't do a very good job of removing it did they?

"Past" life? Linear time? Maybe even Jesus didn't get it then? After all, if Jesus is not God incarnate, then how would he "know" infallibly? This is a much longer discussion on a separate topic, rest assured that "reincarnation in the bible" can be so thoroughly debunked, all that remains is whether you CHOOSE to continue to believe it despite everything contrary to it.

Here Barbara, here is another channelled spirit message for you about "Elijah":

"I am here, Elias (not the same)
I want also to encourage you in the belief that you have the great work to do, and that you must not falter or delay the coming of the messages, for if you will only think for a moment, you will realize that there is no other way in which these truths can at this time be conveyed to mankind.

You must not doubt, or cause yourself to hesitate for a moment to believe that the work has been imposed upon you as one not fitted to receive these truths. I know that sometime it is hard for you to believe that you have been selected to do this great work or that you are fitted to receive these great spiritual truths that are to be given to the world, but you must not let such thoughts linger in your mind, for it is a fact that you have been selected to do the work, and you must not shirk it, for if you do, mankind may remain a long time in ignorance of what the truth is, and the way in which it can take on the Essence of the Father, and become true children, and partakers of His nature, so that the very Essence and Divinity of the Father may become a part of the people.

The work must be done by you and you must not doubt, but have a firm conviction of its truth and try your best to receive the messages.

I merely wanted to say this much, as I am much interested in the work.

Yes, there are a great number present, and you have around you a wonderful spiritual influence which should cause you to believe that these spirits are present trying to help you.

I was Elijah of the Old Testament, and I actually lived and was a prophet among the Jews, and was not John the Baptist, nor was he a reincarnation of me as some of earth teachers claim. John was himself alone. He was in the flesh only once and was not a reincarnation of me or any one else.

I will not write more now, so good-night.

Well???

[william]

“Well???”

I continue to be fascinated by the human mind including my own. How often I catch myself laughing at the frailty, fears, and need for control of my own ego. We humans are indeed interesting species. But then our imperfections make us who we are as perceived separate identities capable of creating lots of drama. Ok interaction.

I am fascinated that one can believe his or her spirit but not another’s spirits. Putting all of our spirits in one basket may not be the way to finding greater degrees of truth. There appears to be many paths to our growth in our consciousness. Maybe some paths include reincarnation and other paths to not. The mind must be kept open to many scenarios. Ultra skeptics are living proof of our view of the mysteries of life when our minds are not open to other scenarios.

Whether there is reincarnation or focuses or whatever is not the point. The mystery is how we can defend our cherished beliefs in spite of the evidence or lack of it. Kind of like my spirit is thee spirit. I.e. my religion is thee religion. I suspect reincarnation is such a drastic thought; to think we have to struggle through another life or lives that the human mind just does not want to think such things. This statement in no way is meant to state that reincarnation is a fact. I prefer it not be a reality but that preference is based on feelings not the evidence I have chosen to accept in this now.

I cannot prove reincarnation is an absolute or not an absolute. I only stated that the evidence for me at least is that it does exist maybe for all or at least most souls. If it does not exist than so be it. Some of the evidence I have obtained is that many spirits that come through after passing over and then stating to the sitter that they indeed have lived many previous lives together. Even if the sitter is with a medium that does not believe in reincarnation when they are not in a trance state. I.e. this may eliminate medium bias.

I cannot prove that reincarnation does exist but then you cannot prove that it does not exist. Checkmate. In many ways I hope you are right the thought of living another life of personal struggle is not on my personal agenda at this time. One has to understand that it appears that a soul that has lived a life as a human and has certain cherished beliefs on reincarnation those beliefs can stay with that soul that most call a spirit for a very long time. Maybe for centuries.

I can only imagine many if not most of the people that read this blog have struggled and/or suffered much in their lives and who can blame them for hoping that reincarnation does not exist and hope for what many spirits call Summerland or Paradise. They both could be perceived as a much better place to continue with our growth in consciousness to higher and higher dimensions with greater and greater bliss and creative powers.

However these are interesting discussions and I thank you for that.

[Houston]

"I am fascinated that one can believe his or her spirit but not another’s spirits."

-When the numerous accounts of "no time" from NDEs and other sources factor into it, it's not a question of "believing" one spirit and not the other..it's a question of logic...and when the logic dawns on you that no time means NO TIME...it's not hard to see which spirit is talking logic and one is not. No time can only mean one thing. It's not a matter of the spirits..and when this absolute logic doesn't factor into some spirits "teaching", that spirit starts to sound rather unintelligent. But, there will still be people who will even defy logic to protect their belief, just like "Elias" accurately stated. It's not a matter of spirits, it's a matter of logic. No time really means no time, and no time=no reincarnation. If spirits don't get that, they don't sound particularly "advanced" at all.

[Houston]

"Some of the evidence I have obtained is that many spirits that come through after passing over and then stating to the sitter that they indeed have lived many previous lives together."

-No time means no time. No time=no reincarnation. All that what you state suggests is that someone continues to believe illogical things even after passing. Nothing else. What these spirits say defies logic. I have seen writings from so called spirits who claim they are in purgatory and need masses offered for them, do you consider this reality? Why not?

What about the apparitions of Mary, do you consider that reality? Would you like a mountain of alleged spirit speak where it is stated that there is no reincarnation? Because, I can provide it to you.

What does seem to be a reality, is that the "advanced" spirits don't seem to have acquired the logic of what "no time" means. Pretty hard to accept, I'm sure. After all, how could so many people be so wrong, right? It seems that our friend Elias, has even answered that question intelligently. Quantity doesn't count for much of anything. Logically, no time really means no time.

[Houston]

And also, instead of cherry picking things to suit one's own present belief, it might be a good idea to get a few concordances to tie things together if you are investigating things in the bible. For instance, it is written that Elijah was taken up, BODY and all, the Jews would certainly be aware of this writing in their Torah, so it's pretty hard to reconcile this with reincarnation (although reincarnationists certainly want to try that).

Mat 11:14
This is Elias, which was for to come - This should always be written Elijah, that as strict a conformity as possible might be kept up between the names in the Old Testament and the New. The Prophet Malachi, who predicted the coming of the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elijah, gave the three following distinct characteristics of him. First, That he should be the forerunner and messenger of the Messiah: Behold I send my messenger before me, Mal_3:1. Secondly, That he should appear before the destruction of the second temple: Even the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, ibid. Thirdly, That he should preach repentance to the Jews; and that, some time after, the great and terrible day of the Lord should come, and the Jewish land be smitten with a curse, Mal_4:5, Mal_4:6.

This is Elias ... - That is, “Elijah.” Elias is the “Greek” mode of writing the Hebrew word “Elijah.” An account of him is found in the first and second books of Kings. He was a distinguished prophet, and was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire, 2Ki_2:11. The prophet Malachi Mal_4:5-6 predicted that “Elijah” would be sent before the coming of the Messiah to prepare the way for him. By this was meant, not that he should appear “in person,” but that one should appear with a striking resemblance to him; or, as Luke Luk_1:17 expresses it, “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” But the Jews understood it differently. They supposed that Elijah would appear in person. They also supposed that Jeremiah and some other of the prophets would appear also to usher in the promised Messiah and to grace his advent. See Mat_16:14; Mat_17:10; Joh_1:21.

[william]

“And also, instead of cherry picking things to suit one's own present belief,”

Isn’t it amazing that you can see others cherry picking but not your own. That is the power of the paradigm effect. I have met very few who understand this paradigm effect. It took me over 80 showings of the video the business of paradigms before the power of paradigms came home to me. Most people I noticed including myself thought they got it after one showing. We are all affected by the paradigm effect. All myself included.

We see in others what we are unable to see in ourselves. Myself included. I have never met a human including myself that did not cherry pick to some degree. We are always in a state of becoming even your selected spirit stated that. This suggests a state of newness, unfoldment, or learning. The need for a perception of time based Becoming. We are always in the Now but that does not eliminate the need for additional lives to learn new lessons. Like not to cherry pick what agrees with our beliefs.

You have fallen into what I call the advaita trap of no time but yet you live in a sequence of events that require a measurement of time.

I have had many discussions with these advaita types it is from ancient Hindu teachings. One guy even swore at me and called me names as he claimed we did not exist there was only oneness and no time. Then of course when I visited his website he was offering books on how to be successful and time management and charged one thousand dollars a day for consulting and speaking fees but yet he told me he did not exist. There was no time according to him but he wanted paid for his time as he charged by the hour which last time I looked was in the realm of time. Talk about paradigms.

Houston if you do not believe time exists do not bother to stop at stoplights as they are sequenced in time or don’t pay your taxes on april 15 and see how that works out for you. Easy to talk about no time hard to live it. You confuse the infinite now with the created finite consciousness. Stated another way you confuse awareness with consciousness.

Awareness, which is infinite, has no time where consciousness is finite and created to change static awareness to dynamic events of expression. Therefore consciousness exists in a type of space-time continuum. Manifestation and expression demands a space-time continuum.

As one of my favorite cherry picked spirits stated: “Through all activity there runs a chain of causation and this sequence of cause and effect is dependent on the principle of Time, for without Time there could be no sequence. So cause and effect are peculiar to manifestation and are inconceivable in Spirit in which all is as yet potential.”

Infinite equals no time; now expression of that infinite potential requires at least the perception of a space-time continuum as it relies on sequence of events for that expression to unfold. This infinite potential expresses itself through consciousness, which is in the domain of time and space.

“No time really means no time, and no time=no reincarnation.”

If this were an absolute then involution and evolution of consciousness would not exist. Read carefully what your cherry picked spirit guru is saying as he is using the word focus instead of reincarnation.

I at this time see an evolution of consciousness occurring and this evolution of consciousness demands sequences of experiences, which are under the domain of time. To state that reincarnation is redundant and therefore of no value to a soul misses a very important concept of the evolution of consciousness.

But my real interest here is how we humans and even souls I suspect can accuse others of cherry picking but fail to see our own cherry picking. That is the power of paradigms and we all have them yes even William.

Great discussions. Much appreciated.

[Hope Rivers]

My mistake, it was the apostle Paul who said "man is appointed to die once", having come to the conclusion of that belief from what he learnt from Jesus's teaching through the apostle's.
I don't think he just picked that idea out of his head and ran with it, he states it with such authority and belief that it is a "truth". He faithfully followed and believed Christ, his character doesnt strike me as someone who's EGO would inspire him to lie and create false teachings that deliberately betray Jesus (who he believes is his GOD)and his followers.

Another thing if reincarnation was such a truth believed by early christians, why didn't Christ preach it?, you'd expect there would be much evidence through scriptures if he believed in it and spoke it, and if you believe there was, go and prove it, go find this evidence, these written words from the mouth of JC.

He did claim he was God, again if people disbelieve this statement, then he was either a lunatic and liar, but if we are to weigh up the man, his life, teachings, superior abilities, he was far from this idea. His teachings and wisdom are nothing less than purity and pefection.

Those that followed him (apostles and believers were martyed for following Christ and preaching the Gospel, they believed without a shadow of doubt after his resurrection, all that he had preached and predicted regarding his death they saw come to pass. During the time after his death he continued to physically manifest and teach the apostles as well as appear to 100's of people for over a month before he decided it was time to leave earth permanently and return to heaven.

The thing is he did speak considerably of hell, heaven and "paradise". Why would you need a hell or hellish location (as depicted in some NDE's) if you were being reincarnated back to earth to rehash life and have karma played out again for prior sins (lessons not learnt).

If Jesus Christ believed in BOTH a heaven and hell and cast out demon spirits etc which led to miraculous recoveries of those infested, its stands as evidence he knows a bit more about whats going on in the invisible world than say the average Joe Blow.

Obviously you can't marry up all beliefs, something has to give, why would spirits have a need to pass on false knowledge if there is only one truth, what is to be gained from deluding the masses with wrong information, thats my question. I guess as long as we have confusion, doubt and false beliefs we are never really free. Much easier to grow when free than when shackled with heavy weights

[Hope Rivers]

The other thing worth mentioning here is a prophecy recorded in Luke;

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(House of Jacob, means children of Israel, or believers of Christ)

Now that was roughly 2000ish years back and prophecy still going strong. Now the house of Jacob

If Jesus was just some bloke and this prophecy was some hoax added into the scriptures to control the beliefs of the people back then, why hasn't it died off if it was a lie like most false predictions, why is the church growing stronger and JC's name is still as strong as ever. I don't know about you but most people at some time has encountered psychics, mediums etc. Have all their predictions come to pass? When something doesnt come true you know you've been had by a charlatan, or a amatuer or someone being influenced by a deceptive spirit. Most predictions dont have a 100% success rate unless of course your influenced by the word of God, which is faultless and always true.

[Houston]

"Houston if you do not believe time exists do not bother to stop at stoplights as they are sequenced in time or don’t pay your taxes on april 15 and see how that works out for you."

-William, you are not this dense, I know it. Did you read what "Elias" said or not? Time has been inserted into THIS dimension quite deliberately. It is NOT a reality in the afterlife. Why do you bring up such nonsense? I'm guessing it's because our friend "Elias" has your belief on the run because I know that you are not this dense. You have encountered a so called spirit that is actually making some sense...and disintegrating your "research". Perhaps you should tell all those NDErs, who state that time and distance do not exist, not to bother with stop lights...and see the blank stares that you get.

"Easy to talk about no time hard to live it."

-No, it's not hard to live it...it's IMPOSSIBLE to live it...in THIS world. How many times do you need someone to spell this out for you?

"If this were an absolute then involution and evolution of consciousness would not exist."

-According to who? You? The "advanced" spirits who push linear reincarnation? LMAO! Is this an absolute truth? I thought you state that there are NO absolutes?

"To state that reincarnation is redundant and therefore of no value to a soul misses a very important concept of the evolution of consciousness."

-William, you are simply running from reality. There is such a mountain of evidence that states there is no time and no distance that it's the size of Everest, why keep living in denial? The reason NDErs see their "past" lives is because they're all happening NOW. There is no past. There is no "former" self, only remanifestations combining elements creating new, don't you get it? As I say, you have met a spirit who seems pretty intelligent and is making sense as to why there is NO reincarnation! It's ok to admit it, really. Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it true. No time=no reincarnation...there is no past or future! It's all now. I realize it's hard to accept that something you believe is just a myth.

It also seems that as soon as you run into something that doesn't fit your current belief system, you take cover under the banner of "it's all an illusion, no truth, nothing to see here, those spirits don't know anything for sure because nothing is for sure." It's a laugh. What you have written about time in this physical world is akin to a 10 year old's answer. It seems the "advanced" ones pushing linear man made myths aren't looking so smart anymore are they?

"it was the apostle Paul who said "man is appointed to die once", having come to the conclusion of that belief from what he learnt from Jesus's teaching through the apostles."

-OK Hope, I will take the cue, I agree that what you are saying and what is written is just as valid as anything else written in any other so called book of wisdom. It also seems that anything that you will write that states "no reincarnation" will just be rejected...because...well...because nobody likes it.

"I don't know about you but most people at some time has encountered psychics, mediums etc. Have all their predictions come to pass?"

No. That's another good point. These people (who are legit) make so many mistakes it's amazing that people will simply believe what they say and write, as if they are sitting and having coffee with the "advanced" spirits. They write books like it's coffee time among the deceased! They get so many things wrong, but their books all sound like they're having a two way coffee party with the deceased...they make millions passing of garbage as if it's some kind of truth, and people will just lap it up. Ater all, Michelle Whitedove wants $500 per hour to "map out" your past lives...when in reality there is no time in spirit! And some people are actually paying this to her, all with no verification of validity, while people starve in the world! Victor Zammit keeps harping about how the church (Christians I assume) must change and accept facts...what I wonder is what he would like them to change to...perhaps, like Sylvester Stallone says, that they have been a monkey in their past life?? Or maybe a donkey? Yes, change like this is vital. What BS!

[Houston]

"Another thing if reincarnation was such a truth believed by early christians, why didn't Christ preach it?, you'd expect there would be much evidence through scriptures if he believed in it and spoke it, and if you believe there was, go and prove it, go find this evidence, these written words from the mouth of JC."

-I'm just waiting with both barrels loaded on this one...waiting for all the reincarnation "proof" from the bible to be posted here...or was it removed? Hmm. Reincarnationists don't seem to be sure on that one. My answer to those biblical "proofs" is just waiting... :)

[Houston]

Oh,and by the way, William. In George Rodonaia's NDE, (the man who diagnosed a broken hip for a baby while OBE), he stated that he was able to go back to the time of Jesus Christ...in his words: "really there!" Would you care to explain to us how he would be able to do this if linear time was a reality in the spiritual world? There are countless other professions like this. Can you believe it? There really is no reincarnation because there is no linear time, I can't imagine! Heaven forbid! What WILL we do now?

[Houston]

Here'a another guy who has figured this out William:

PAUL ENO-psychic intuitive

The belief that people die and are reborn in new bodies, sometimes again and again for millennia, is a fixture in many religions. Hindus, Buddhists, animists and many other groups accept the doctrine in one form or another, as did many of the ancients, including the Celts. There's evidence that reincarnation was an important part of Judaism at one time, and there were early Christian sects that accepted it as well.
Reincarnation is taken for granted among those involved in the occult today. And many people who belong to religious groups that actively disavow reincarnation -- like Roman Catholics and most Protestants -- believe in it privately anyway. It's very comforting to think that we don't just go "poof" when we die or don't have to face some terrible, win-or-lose judgment with no appeal.
But what's the actual evidence for reincarnation? Aside from the realization that so many of our remote ancestors believed in it, a fact that deserves respect, we have unexplained memories, feelings, habits, seemingly impossible coincidences, unshakable dreams, and even bizarre historical facts that point toward "us being there."
We have deja vu, the feeling that we have "been here before." And for the past 150 years or so, we have had hypnosis. Today, many hypnotists will "regress" people to "past lives." This isn't just for fun -- it has shown remarkable results in helping deal with phobias and other problems people have in their current lives -- problems they believe are traceable to past lives. Certainly in Nature, all things die and are reborn.
But there were a few things that always bothered me as a paranormal investigator, mainly because one of the first lessons I learned as such was that things are almost never what they appear to be. You always have to dig deeper.

First, if reincarnation is true, why are there so many "old ghosts"? Second, what part might ancestral memory play in the reincarnation experience? And finally, what would quantum mechanics, the branch of physics on which I base my own theories and methods, have to say about reincarnation?
I think the first question can be answered by the other two. The few researchers who have sought to correlate memories with genealogy have sometimes found that people share memories that probably belonged to their ancestors. This, of course, would include memories only up to the time of the birth of the child from whom the subject is in turn descended. And it wouldn't explain death memories.

It's to quantum mechanics that we can look for an explanation of reincarnation that ties up all the loose ends.

Einstein and his successor scientists have essentially proven that time is relative. It exists only in relation to the observer. String theory and quantum mechanics have taken this to the point that we can no longer say that past and future even exist in any objective form.

If there is no past, how can there be past lives? There can't. And if there is no time, how can there be such a thing as death?

There can't.

Like soap bubbles in a bathtub, there are parallel worlds side by side with us all the time and with which we constantly interact.

Hypnosis, when it's legitimate, simply ties into these parallel "memories".

If this is true, and if hypnotism really is a valid way to get at it, shouldn't therapists have an inkling of this deeper reality?

They do.

For years I've made it a point to ask therapists if they ever have subjects describe worlds they don't recognize. Almost invariably the answer is "yes." I sometimes get a torrent of stories about subjects whose answers unnerved the therapists. There were stories about subjects who gave dates in the future -- sometimes the remote future -- when asked what the year was. Others described people who hadn't yet been born, at least in our own little corner of the quantum universe.

-Elias is looking pretty smart these days. No reincarnation, no past lives, no used parts, no time, no karma, retained personality and individuality...a lot of people would lose a lot of money if others figured this out. Sounds pretty similar to what our other friend Fred Myers supposedly "spoke" when he spoke of an ouversoul and that he would not live again but someone else woven into it, would, doesn't it? Also, a lot of cherished beliefs would be out the window...and a lot of psychics would have egg on their face...and a lighter wallet to boot.

[william]

"Since the bible is full of contradictions, you have to pick and choose the bits you like, which spoils its authority."

I agree with Barbara on this one. As I often tell others the bible appears to be full of wisdom but also it appears to be full of ignorance finding the difference is a great challenge for most seekers. Also I have noticed that when we (myself included) become very zealous or very defensive about our beliefs when others appear to challenge our cherished beliefs it may be due to our doubts and fears rather than our certainties.

From my point of view many of the comments made by Huston would fit under the category of attacks or puts downs. According to Jesus in the course in miracles since Jesus seems to be an absolute authority in this discussion those put downs are considered attacks and come from one’s ego. Side note: I have always doubted that the course in miracles spirit is really Jesus but that’s another story.

As far as reincarnation if it is not a reality I won’t be that upset maybe even delighted on the other side. The thought of another life on this physical world is not the best of thoughts for me at least. In the absolute, which I define as pure awareness, there is no time but in the finite, time exists in the perception of consciousness.

“Elias is looking pretty smart these days.”

Beyond pretty smart our cherry picked spirits and NDE’s always look not only pretty smart but established truths that validate our beliefs. That is the power of cherished beliefs and like attracts like. We feel comfortable with those that think and believe like us. Apparently this condition exists even on the other side and maybe even in these higher dimensions.

One of my interests is how the human mind or even the mind of the soul is unable to perceive this need to validate its cherished beliefs for himself or herself. We are truly fascinating Beings. You do realize I hope that if we were all knowing we would not even be having these discussions. It is due to our ignorance or unawareness that we often cherry pick our gurus and spirits. And that ignorance is based or created in innocence and not due to any fallen condition of humans due to free will as the bible appears to be stating or at least the Christians appear to be teaching others.

As Jesus stated what we sow we reap which sounds a lot like karma to me.

“But there were a few things that always bothered me as a paranormal investigator, mainly because one of the first lessons I learned as such was that things are almost never what they appear to be. You always have to dig deeper.”

This is the statement of a seeker and as Jesus so rightly stated judge not by appearances. Digging deeper I also recommend but the human mind is so deceptive we often dig until we find what we are looking for. Please believe me when I tell you I was not looking for reincarnation to be a possible reality as the thought of coming back to this world were profits are often glorified over the needs of the sick and the needy is not a pleasant thought. As a Buddhist would say look around there is suffering everywhere and if not now in your life than later.

“He did claim he was God,” meaning Jesus.

I seem to remember reading that he called himself son of man and gave God the credit for his miracles he performed and even stated something to the effect that the father is greater than I. He also seemed to indicate that we are all sons of God which how could we not be if only one infinite absolute exists.

The Christians teach that God can create Beings outside of itself now I lean in the direction there is only oneness and nothing created is outside of this oneness. We are “aspects” of this oneness expressing itself appearing less than perfect as in perfection the creation of other perceived Beings would be impossible. I.e. we are perfectly imperfect.

Only in involution could a Oneness of mind express itself or interact with itself in an infinite variety of expressions and the evolution process allows this interaction to be on going and therefore dynamic. From my point of view involution and evolution explains this process of life as we know it the very best.

The problem as we humans see it is that this involution process creates perceived Beings with unawareness and in that unawareness is suffering as the Buddha so rightly realized as ignorance. Now asking ourselves the origin of that ignorance is an interesting question at least to me it is interesting.

Again long response but I appreciate this discussion. Thank you both for that. These discussions help me to think deeply about the meaning and mysteries of life which has always been an interest of mine or is it mind.

[Houston]

"According to Jesus in the course in miracles since Jesus seems to be an absolute authority in this discussion those put downs are considered attacks and come from one’s ego."

-I'm really glad that you brought up Course In Miracles, William. Here's why...I will give you something from it right now: “A Course In Miracles”? (A Course in Miracles reads, "In the ultimate sense, reincarnation is impossible. There is no past or future, and the idea of rebirth into a body has no meaning either once or many times.") How does this figure into things for you? Seems like the Jesus of "miracles" agrees with Elias, wouldn't you say?

"Beyond pretty smart our cherry picked spirits and NDE’s always look not only pretty smart but established truths that validate our beliefs."

-This is especially true of reincarnationists. They are very good at picking out cherries, as you put it, from NDEs, spirits and mediums, (not to mention the fact of a large wallet from so called "past" lives) all the while rejecting even logic.

"It is due to our ignorance or unawareness that we often cherry pick our gurus and spirits."

-Also very true of reincarnationists, in particular...even to the point that they and you, will defy even logic...pretty much what you have done all along here.

"As Jesus stated what we sow we reap which sounds a lot like karma to me."

-It does? How does 'reap what you sow' mean that if you kill somebody you will have to 'reincarnate' (linear time) and be killed in return? Wouldn't Jesus want to clarify this if that was what he was referring to? Did Jesus mean that if you eat that chicken, the chicken will reincarnate and eat you? It seems like you have just contradicted yourself because you brought up Course In Miracles, yet you are "karma-ing" yourself into an illogical belief and contradicting the same Course In Miracles that you brought up because the Jesus of "miracles" says there is no time and no reincarntion.

[Houston]

"The problem as we humans see it is that this involution process creates perceived Beings with unawareness and in that unawareness is suffering as the Buddha so rightly realized as ignorance."

-One more thing...is this absolutely true? I thought there is no way to know absolute truth and that there is not even any such thing...so why would you state that Buddha 'so rightly realized' anything? How do you know?

[Houston]

Sorry, I just noticed this...

"...and even stated something to the effect that the father is greater than I."

-Wrong William. A so called "advanced" one named silver birch allegedly "said" that this was changed in the bible. This is not in the bible at all. Here is the passage: (Joh 10:30) The Father and I are one."

It is the same in every single translation. It seems you don't have your facts straight.

[Houston]

Boy, sorry about all these posts.

""As Jesus stated what we sow we reap which sounds a lot like karma to me."

-William, you are going to have to get your facts together my friend because it's all coming apart at the seams. The statement that you attribute to Jesus was NOT said by Jesus. It is written in Galations, which is not gospel testimony of Jesus Christ's words/actions. Please check these things out before making statements.

"(Gal 6:7) Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man may sow, that he also will reap."

[william]

Since you seem to be an authority on the course in miracles why is it you are unable to see that our discussions seem to be what the course calls attacks. My belief at this time is that these types of responses appear to come across as certainty but that certainty is based in doubt not certainty. Doubt promotes defensive and hostile behaviors. It is of the fearful ego and the course spends a lot time on ego behavior.

Maybe you missed the part were I stated I doubted that the course was indeed written by Jesus maybe it came from Helen’s subconscious or another spirit claiming to be Jesus. Lets see Jesus recommended that the course be copywrited and one day Jesus went shopping for shoes with Helen. Very suspicious indeed from a spirit advanced as Jesus.

Why so hostile against someone that disagrees with your beliefs? Is it a fear of reincarnation for I can completely understand that fear? I happen to believe that reincarnation exists whether I want it to or not. Maybe it does not? Is it tied to your Christian beliefs and somehow I am stepping on those beliefs?

Do you really believe what appears to me at least as hostile reactions to my comments will change anyone’s beliefs? You called me your friend is this the way you communicate with friends? I have included a quote from a book called Claude’s book a link from this blog. Maybe Claude does not get the no time = no reincarnation axiom.

“so why would you state that Buddha 'so rightly realized' anything? How do you know?”

Until you have something called a realization, which by asking the question it is evident that you have not had a realization in this life, but I suspect in past lives you have, it will be impossible for you to understand the depth of a realization.

The Buddhists call it a knowing beyond knowing. Realization leads to a certainty not based in the casing of one’s doubt but a certainty that is beyond defensive, hostile, or protective behavior. Even most Buddhist monks do not know what the Buddha realized and confuse the symptoms of ignorance with origins or root causes of this unawareness.

Again thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments as this gives me indications of how some readers that takes the time to respond to my comments.

[william]

quotes from claude's book on the subject of reincarnation.

these quotes do not prove reincarnation but just more qualitative evidence.

“I am told by friends here, that souls are sometimes reborn,
reincarnated, in order to gain further experience, learn more life lessons, or work out past sins and failings. Each earth life leaves its mark on character, and its lessons are for ever imprinted on the subconscious mind, which registers everything that has ever
happened to the soul from the beginning. This, they say, explains
much of the pain and trouble you see on earth.

The sufferers are learning lessons, which are necessary for their souls' growth, for man was put into the world to develop the spiritual. They may have lived before, and neglected to learn them, or they may be new souls going through these experiences in one or other of the stages of their existence; it is all on the road of their evolution.

Families, friends, sections of nations in the revolving cycle of time reincarnate together very often, as they require the same experiences.

When you begin to think seriously about the subject and look and
study the people about you, you will be able to recognize that some
people are old souls and others new…..

With reference to the discussion in the paper on it reincarnation,” you say some women think it almost a desecration to believe their babies have lived before and been perhaps even "harlots," "thieves," or other undesirable persons. This sounds as if they presupposed themselves to be new souls.

I am told, whatever those babies may have been in previous lives (if they have lived on earth before), their mothers have earned those particular babies."

[Houston]

"Families, friends, sections of nations in the revolving cycle of time reincarnate together very often..."

-I would like to ask why you are going around in circles? Is there something about this you don't understand? It's been PROVEN that time is relative. There is NO time in life after life. The evidence/proof of this is all around you if you will see it. Quantum mechanics assures this. Elias (among numerous others) state there is NO TIME, it is NOT linear. There is NO reincarnation because there is NO linear time. Why did you bother to write what you just did? It means nothing. It is "qualitative" of nothing other than you WANT to believe something that is not logical, has been disproven time is relative, and when the spirits that might REALLY be "advanced" (who understand this and it agrees with science)...state there IS--N--O S-U-C-H-- T-H-I-N-G. Say it slowly if you wish. I suggest reading Elias' messages again as well as the statement by Paul Eno about science/time/Einstein. This is how you will realize who the "advanced" spirits are.

"...you will be able to recognize that some people are old souls and others new…"

-Around in circles? Exactly what is this supposed to prove? That some spirit is stupid enough to believe what is illogical, scientically proven false, and other "advanced" spirits that seem to understand this, contradict? If so, it does certainly prove that there are some foolish spirits, but nothing else.

"I am told, whatever those babies may have been in previous lives (if they have lived on earth before)"

-For the last time...there is NO LINEAR TIME. No karma. No reincarnation. Defying logic with foolish spirit messages is nothing...it means nothing. I honestly don't know why you posted that. All it proves is..nothing. I know that you are not dense, you just don't seemt to be able to admit this to yoursel. It defies logic and science. It's hinduism/buddhism and nothing more. No matter what it "looks" like to you, anyone else, or any spirit for that matter...it won't make it a reality. Think...LOGIC. Then, after that, the "advanced" spirits. Just because hindus/buddhists/psychics might "believe" reincarnation does not make it a fact. Even quantum mechanics is against this. You keep writing things that are simply redundant. You (or anyone else) could write all the spirit messages about reincarnation you want, but it won't change the reality that even science understands.

"quotes from claude's book on the subject of reincarnation."

-Who on earth cares WHAT Claude's book says? Do you believe nonsense despite science, logic and spirits who actually might know what they are talking about? Why post all this?

"My belief at this time is that these types of responses appear to come across as certainty but that certainty is based in doubt not certainty. Doubt promotes defensive and hostile behaviors."

-It matters not to me what you believe because you believe illogical concepts and deny it even when it is put in front of you. Please don't judge my "doubt" and "certianty", instead ask yourself why you are motivated to continue to believe illogical concepts regardless of the facts.

"Is it a fear of reincarnation for I can completely understand that fear?"

-What a foolish question! Why are you so opposed to something other than your present belief in the face of FACTS that deny it as reality? You keep posting redundant things that just go around in circles. You don't have any science or anything else for that matter to substantiate your "spirits" other than blind belief. You seem to have a mutilated view of hinduism or something...sort of a spiritual darwinism...that you refuse to let go of even though it is a myth.

"Do you really believe what appears to me at least as hostile reactions to my comments will change anyone’s beliefs?"

-William, I have obviously offended you, so, I will tell you that I'm sorry for that. There.

"Maybe Claude does not get the no time = no reincarnation axiom."

-No, Claude obviously doesn't get the FACTS...no reincarnationists or spirits who still believe linear time reincarnation do. This is the illusion of this mythical belief.

"Until you have something called a realization, which by asking the question it is evident that you have not had a realization in this life, but I suspect in past lives you have, it will be impossible for you to understand the depth of a realization."

-ROFL. William, who are you to judge my "realization"? You are the one who says there is no truth, right? Yet, you constantly speak of "truth" in such a way that you seem to know an "absolute" truth when you say there is no truth. If you suspect I have had a "realization" in past lives, you suspect wrong. There are no "past" lives. Don't you get this? Why can't you grasp this? Because you've got some kind of remanufactured hinduism in you, and you honestly BELIEVE foolish spirits that push LINEAR reincarnation? When even science tells you that time is relative?? Before you start selling "truth" to somebody William, think very carefully about it...it might not be true at all. You keep redundantly keep quoting foolish spirits, when I could do the same thing except it would be from spirits that seem to understand what Einstein has already proven. All that remains is for the bulk of people to GRASP it (including psychics). I know I for one, am tired of Jim Van Praagh talking about his past lives in religious service...he doesn't get it! There is no past or future, it's all NOW. It's been stated as such by so many spirits that it is just amazing that people will disregard it in order to keep holding onto myths. Maybe he just hasn't checked it out...maybe JVP hasn't had a "realization" yet.

[Houston]

"...it will be impossible for you to understand the depth of a realization."

-Oh my goodness, goodness, goodness...and I suppose you understand the "depth" of a "realization"? You must or you wouldn't have written this. Perhaps William (in this lifetime) you will have a realization and realize that time is relative...there is no linear time in life after life. Just make sure that you have this "realization" of logic before you "enlighten" others. You write things like this implying that I am some kind of a fool, when it it is actually you (and your spirits) who just don't get it. Maybe don't want to figure this out.

An appropriate title for an essay on Allen Kardec would be aptly termed "What the FOOLISH spirits told Allan Kardec." This would be far more accurate.

I know, it seems hard to imagine...how could so many people be so wrong...yet, it is so. Man, our friend Elias even explains that! "this is a belief only you DON'T BELIEVE that it's only a belief"...not based on reality.

[Houston]

And one last thing...

"...sections of nations in the revolving cycle of time..."

-Again...there goes Claude and his spirits..."time". There is no time. It is inserted into this physical world quite purposely...there is no time in the hereafter. This might be the first tip-off for you when you read spirit messages...time...these spirits are fools who don't even know what Einstein knew. Honestly? Probably these "advanced" spirits are earthbound and simply looking for a "kick" or else are so determined that their foolish beliefs are reality, they insist on telling someone else about it.

I recently listened to an audio clip from COSC/Zammit. In this audio, one of those present asks (I forget who-somebody like Conan Doyle or something) about reinarnation...about his "past" life. LOL. Something about asking who he "was" before. Guess what his answer was? He "knows" that he is someone else and lived before, but he doesn't know WHO and says it would serve him no purpose to know this. What?? Then what is the point of "past" lives if he doesn't know who he "was" and there's no value for him TO know?? What ridiculous garbage. Another example of a spirit who "just knows" there is reincarnation (linear) but doesn't seem to know anything about the exact mechanics of it. Or, if they try to explain it, it's all LINEAR. A myth. Yet, people cling to the myth.

In that audio clip, after the spirit gave that answer, he says something like: "does that answer your question?" and guess what...they all said "oh yes, yes it does, thank you very much Mr.----". Unbelievable. They continue to believe this myth even in the midst of such foolishness. Zammit is always talking about science...I wish this reality would dawn on him. Old "silver" is not looking so highly "advanced" anymore.

[Houston]

Here's another one for you William...I'm also somewhat familiar with Emmanuel Swedenborg as well (though likely you will see this as a further evidence of my lack of "understanding" LOL) Emmanuel Swedenborg: “There is no time as we know it in the heavens.” Did you read this carefully? See, this fact is all around you. NDEs, spirits talk, etc. Even Einstein understood this. If there is no past and no future in the hereafter...there can be no "re" anything. Everything is NOW. I honestly don't understand why you cannot see this...well, actually I'm going to guess and say it's because you have it so engrained into you that reincarnation is a reality that you simply can't let go of it despite the facts being right in front of you. I don't think you're unintelligent, my guess is that you simply are convinced of something mythological and refuse to let go of it. Seems that simple spirits also keep believing their own myths as well. Or else, they're just lying. One or the other, but most definitely they are not "advanced", that's for sure.

By the way, William...please don't use the excuse that Swedenborg was going to a "christian" place in the hereafter. This is just nothing more than 100% speculation and clinging to old myths, and it's not even relevant because he wrote that he encountered people of ALL religions and races.

[Houston]

OK, just one more thing :)...

Seeing old and young souls around you...hmmm...sounds advanced to me, after all we're talking about linear time again. I'll repeat the Elias answer for you: "essence is timeless". There is nothing to reincarnate, there is no time...you are not used parts, you may not be compromised. How does this make less sense to you than linear time does? How does this make LESS sense to you than being "other" people? How does this makes LESS sense to you than being crows, magpies, rodents, grass and donkeys?

I'm guessing because, in part, it follows a linear time concept of evolution to you. Yet there is no time. Only present. It only looks like there's time here in this world, but it does not exist in the hereafter so there can be no "re" incarnation.

[Raimo]

"It only looks like there's time here in this world, but it does not exist in the hereafter so there can be no "re" incarnation."

We have linear time in this physical dimension. Thus reincarnation is possible.

Bible doesn't prove anything. It is just a collection of fairy tales.

[steve wood]

Belief in reincarnation? ... I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as a member!

[Houston]

"We have linear time in this physical dimension. Thus reincarnation is possible."

-Raimo, the next time you post something, please don't ignore the facts and reality. Please try to write something logical. When science and evidence contradicts you, you can either acknowledge it or live in denial. It's obvious that this subject is way over your head.

Bible doesn't prove anything? Who cares? I don't, why do you? I care about science and reality, I'm not sure that you do.

[Paul W]

Houston: I think you will find what Raimo wrote would seem pretty logical to most people. By the way personal insults don't make your point any clearer or more acceptable.

Your tone seems belligerent and aggressive - why is this? What are you seeking to achieve by posting?

[william]

“Why did you bother to write what you just did? It means nothing.”

I think you are referring to what Claude wrote I only quoted Claude they were not my words. Although it appears to me from my research and it would take too many words now to explain incidents in my personal life that we are in soul clusters and this may imply that we in these soul clusters have lived many lives in the physical world.

"I am told, whatever those babies may have been in previous lives (if they have lived on earth before)"

I have this impression that Claude is smiling now in whatever dimension he is residing in from your responses. Again these are Claude’s words from a link on this blog not my words but they are my quotes.

“Who on earth cares WHAT Claude's book says?”

Apparently Michael P did as he gave his readers to his blog this link. I personally found many of Claude’s words in line with my research. I also found his words on thought forms interesting as they applied to NDE’s. And the golf playing on the other side was interesting.

“It matters not to me what you believe”

From my point of view this is probably the most illogical statement you have made to date. It must matter to you what I believe; do you have any idea how many words you have used to comment on my comments? I also must look deep into myself and look at my motives because I also have had long responses. Looking into a mirror is not an easy task and for many men this begins to occur at about the age of 50.

“Facts”

This word you use a lot. I have come in my life to be very suspicious of anyone telling me what are facts. To Hitler it was the Jews and all misfits that needed to be eliminated; to many Christians it is a fact that only those that believe as they do go to heaven, the list of those proclaiming to know facts are almost endless.

“William, I have obviously offended you, so, I will tell you that I'm sorry for that. There.”

I accept you apology although none was needed but I did smile at the word at the end. The “there” word. Kind of like ok I will say it. You have not offended me quite the contrary reading other’s beliefs and what they have to say on this blog is of great value to me for many reasons. More than you could ever realize. Not many on this blog have taken the time to respond in such detail to my statements. I perceived many of your responses as “attacks” i.e. CIM thing, but that may be my own ego in action. If you have read my comments over the years I suspect the ego is very deceptive.

“You keep redundantly keep quoting foolish spirits,”

“Foolish is as foolish does.” Tom Hanks. Maybe our mode of responding to one another’s comments and our mode of responding to each other is the height of foolishness. I suspect many that read our comments think just that. I have noticed very few have decided to get involved in our discussion. The foolish ones may indeed be us. Maybe the calling of others foolish is just a projection of our own inner feelings about ourselves.

“What the FOOLISH spirits told Allan Kardec."

I loved the introduction that Allan Kardec wrote in his book. Now many of the saints he quoted claimed to be Christian saints. There is that word foolish again. Looking into a mirror and seeing our won foolishness is no easy task.

“And one last thing...” “OK, just one more thing :)...”

The smile is good. I got a smile on my face when I saw your smile figure.

“I'll repeat the Elias answer for you: "essence is timeless".

This I agree with as essence is infinite and infinite is timeless if of course both our operational definitions of essence is the life force or absolute that is all and all or what most call God. Again from my point of view you confuse awareness with created or manifested consciousness.

“Yet there is no time. Only present.”

Past, present, and future are in the domains of time. Time is a perception and a very powerful one. How else could Infinite express its perfect or pure awareness without the perception (domain) of time to allow this sequence of expressions to occur? Think deeply about involution and evolution this may help you see this involution and evolution process in action. Or not.

It appears that this infinite pure awareness has a necessity to create and we are the living proof of that necessity.

“We have linear time in this physical dimension. Thus reincarnation is possible.”

Nice and concise. Thank you for that. But; ok wont go there.

“Bible doesn't prove anything. It is just a collection of fairy tales.”

Not sure I agree with this statement. Bible proves humankind has thought about the meaning and purpose of life and life after death for many thousands of years. Maybe since humans become humans? Ok no time years. Sorry my humor needs reworked I suspect. My take on the bible is that it is full of wisdom like the meek shall inherit the earth and what we sow we reap and many others but it is also full of people that inserted their facts into the bible. We humans do love our facts. Our facts become our reality and we will defend them to the end.

Some will even fly though tall buildings and kill thousands to live by our facts. Of course telling young men that they will have *72 virgins waiting for them in paradise may have had something to do with it. Most wars are fought because people believed in their facts. Hitler invaded Russia because he thought it was a fact that Russia would invade him first. Stalin did not prepare in time because he thought it was a fact that Hitler would not open up another front that soon. Facts, sales, and God are probably the most over used words in the world. Can the word God be overused?

* Of course they forgot to tell those young men that those 72 virgins must always remain virgin for eternity so they found they were in Hades not heaven.

[Paul W]

Plus they didn't say they were female virgins ;)

[Raimo]

"For the last time...there is NO LINEAR TIME. No karma. No reincarnation."

The fact that you write things like this proves that you haven't read much about reincarnation.

Research on reincarnation shows that there is no karma. Reincarnation has nothing to do with karma.

I will repeat what I wroter earlier: we have linear time in this physical dimension. I also wrote to you that birthmarks and birth defects are produced before birth. That's a fact you can't deny. If a child remembers his past life, the time as a discarnate spirit and choosing his parents or being drawn to them and he has also memories from a time his mother was pregnant with him, I'd say that reincarnation is the best explanation. Birthmarks/birth defects, phobias, philias, and behavior that is appropriate for a previous personality makes reincarnation even better explanation. I don't claim that reincarnation is a fact, but I'd say that it explains these cases better than other theories.

"I care about science and reality, I'm not sure that you do."

I care about science and reality. Research on reincarnation has produced lots of very good evidence.

I don't trust (most) mediums. Especially if they claim to gain information from some character from bible etc. I find reincarnation, NDE and psi research far more reliable.

[william]

“Research on reincarnation shows that there is no karma. Reincarnation has nothing to do with karma.”

I tend to agree with this statement of course it depends on one’s operational definition of karma. Many if not most people look at karma as some type of punishment. I tend to think of karma or what we sow we reap as some kind of universal or spiritual law that gives us perfect feedback not as punishment but allows the dynamic progress of a soul.

Karma may provide us with experiences that we need to progress the soul. It is like a law or a principle. I don’t think it is a design but some type of spiritual reality that promotes for every action a reaction.

The evolution of the soul appears to need this type of feedback system to sustain its forward progress in love, divine intelligence, and growth in its creative powers. Even Paul Brunton who devoted his life to doing research into the mysteries of life and found “enlightenment” in his senior years described karma in his early writings as punishment but in his later years changed his tune on karma.

Reincarnation does appear for me at least to fill in some of the blanks into the mysteries of life.

[steve wood]

Or....how OLD the virgins were:#)

[Houston]

"Apparently Michael P did as he gave his readers to his blog this link."

-Perhaps Michael P. also doesn't realize in an eternal now there is no "re", "pre" or "post" anything?"

"From my point of view this is probably the most illogical statement you have made to date."

-The statement was made from the point of logic, that's why what is "believed" is irrelevant. It is logic regardless of whatever "spin" you attempt to put on the defintion of "logic".

"This word you use a lot. I have come in my life to be very suspicious of anyone telling me what are facts."

-Do you apply this same logic to foolish, linear time based illusionary comments from foolish spirits? (think about this)

"I accept your apology although none was needed but I did smile at the word at the end."

-OK. No sarcasm was intended with the last word. Perhaps a little zealous on my part as to why people don't understand what is so obvious a reality.

"Looking into a mirror and seeing our won foolishness is no easy task."

-Apply this to linear reincarnation, scientific facts, and those "advanced" spirits and you'll understand it.

"Time is a perception and a very powerful one."

-Certainly. Even the "advanced" spirits haven't figured this out.

"Nice and concise. Thank you for that. But; ok wont go there."

-Yes. Nice and concise, nonetheless, completely false. And, yes this discussion has gotten boring, as anything I say will just be redundant. I, science, and our friend Elias have already said it all.

"Not sure I agree with this statement."

-A good statement William. I also once "believed" (and found all kinds of "evidence" to support what I already believed) that Jesus Christ never existed. It was somewhat challenging to admit to myself that he really did, and that something happened on "that" day, that caused those apostles to all allow themselves to be persecuted, tortured and killed. Raimo appears to be very good at finding much "evidence" of what he already believes, even to the point of being oblivious to any other reality. It's a human thing to do, but not very useful if you wish to test your "belief".

"The fact that you write things like this proves that you haven't read much about reincarnation."

-LOL! Raimo, I'm pretty confident in saying that I am quite well versed in your subject, I'm happy to debate anyone at anytime on it. The fact that YOU make this statement, along with the other redundant statements (defying even logic and science) pretty much proves that YOU are not terribly well versed in anything except what you already BELIEVE. The problem is, for me, the debate grows tiring when people defy logic and science to cling to mythical beliefs, based in part, on denial. I'll quote Elias one more time: "these are beliefs that you believe are enlightened beliefs, but you don't BELIEVE that they are only beliefs." Not grounded in facts or logic.

"I also wrote to you that birthmarks and birth defects are produced before birth. That's a fact you can't deny."

-You know, Raimo, I could tear this "birthmark" statement (along with the rest of yours) utterly to pieces (although it's doubtful that would "believe" it regardless of what was presented to you), and it wouldn't even be very hard to do. I'm not going to bother, though, because it won't matter to you. All that will result is a circular debate that's grounded in nothing but "belief" on your part. In fact, if you read Elias' comments carefully, you will see that these "birthmarks" are even plausible despite the fact that there is NO reincarnation. You obviously have not read the comments carefully, nor looked at the science closely enough, or the logic.

"Research on reincarnation has produced lots of very good evidence."

-Yes, the illusion is, that it is not evidence of "re"incarnation, that's the difference. There is a difference between manifestation and incarnation (which I doubt you will see). You only "see" what you already believe and discount, or dare I say, remain uninterested, in denial, and oblivious to, all the logic and science that invalidates what you already believe. In other words, "you don't BELIEVE that what you believe is only a belief, not a fact." It's very obvious that Ian Stevenson did not realize this much bigger reality either. Why would anyone expect you to realize it?

"Especially if they claim to gain information from some character from bible etc."

-This is only because you already BELIEVE that the entire bible is simply a fairytale. Notice how your "belief" bleeds over into everything? What a coincidence.

"Karma may provide us with experiences that we need to progress the soul. It is like a law or a principle."

-I feel I understand, in part at least, what you are saying here. Paraphrasing our friend Elias, "you believe that karma is a law of the universe, but it is not." And, I feel, at least in part, you already understand this statement. The next step for you is to think further, and "re" discover that "re" incarnation is nothing moe than an illusion..something that appears to be a certain, but it is not.

"Reincarnation does appear for me at least to fill in some of the blanks into the mysteries of life."

-And I also feel that you "think" enough, that you may possibly realize this is an illlusion and nothing more (based on linear time bias), that is not based on evidence (from sound sources) nor logic and science. Providing you will allow yourself to understand this, of course. It's up to you, messages from foolish spirits that don't support logic and science (when evidence the size of a mountain is all around you), doesn't account for anything, no matter what spin you attempt to put on it.

-I'm finding this discussion more redundant and boring as it goes on, don't be offended if I don't post any further to other comments that have already been addressed numerous times.