The double, continued

(Update, June 23: This post was considerably amended to correct some mistakes I made in describing the activity level of the double during earthly life, a problem pointed out by Zerdini in comments.)

My last post concerned the idea of the etheric double, a duplicate body that takes over for us when our earthly body dies. The idea was presented in some channeled material produced by Geraldine Cummins in her book Beyond Human Personality.

Of course, the idea of a double - astral body, soul body, etc. - is hardly new. It dates back at least as far as ancient Egypt. According to the Egyptians, each person was born with a ka, or twin. One Web site says:

It was thought that the creator god Khnum created a person's Ka when he created the person on his potter's wheel. The Ka then followed the person like a shadow or double all through life, but when the person died, the Ka returned to its heavenly abode.

Other sources (like this one) say the ka remained in the tomb, rather than going to heaven. In any event, it was conceived of as a double or twin of the human being, and was represented as an exact duplicate in Egyptian art. (More about the ka here.)

Variants of the idea of the "double" are found in other traditions, such as the kama rupa of Theosophy, the perispirit of Allan Kardec's writings, and the subtle body of many religions.

For Christians, the most famous description of the subtle body is the one given by St. Paul in First Corinthians 15:35-50. Paul calls it the resurrection body:

³⁵But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" ³⁶How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. ³⁷When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. ³⁸But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body ....

 ⁴²So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body ....  ⁵⁰I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  [New International Version, via Bible Gateway]

As presented in Cummins' book, the etheric double is a secondary body through which the mind/soul operates. The double serves as an interface between the mind/soul and the physical body. As "Myers" says,

But the soul has to work through the medium of the double and never directly commands matter. Always there is this unifying body which comes between the self and his outward appearance in the material world.

The double is active at all times, but is independently active - i.e., functioning independently of the physical body - only on certain occasions, such as when the physical body is asleep or comatose. The rest of the time, the etheric body is closely entwined with the physical body.

The etheric double is not merely superficially identical to the physical body. It is said to contain all the same organs, vessels, nerves, and so forth, including, of course, an etheric brain. While the mind/soul may have difficulty operating through an aging, damaged, or defective physical brain (even with the etheric double as an interface), no similar difficulties would be encountered in operating through the etheric brain directly, since the etheric form is free from the effects of age, injury, or illness. Thus, the dying person feels himself reborn in a body that is a duplicate of his earthly body, but without earthly weaknesses and flaws - a body that is familiar, yet different; his own, yet new.

A post I published earlier this year contains an "eyewitness account" of the separation of an etheric double from the physical body, as reported by the clairvoyant Andrew Jackson Davis. Here's part of what I wrote back in March:

-------

John DeSalvo's worthwhile albeit regrettably brief book Andrew Jackson Davis: The First American Prophet and Clairvoyant contains some interesting material on the 19th century medium.  One chapter recounts Davis's experience in a hospital when he observed two dying men. Davis reported that he saw, clairvoyantly, the entire dying process. His description matches up pretty well with accounts collected by Robert Crookall in his books on death and dying, such as Intimations of Immortality.

Observing one of the unconscious patients, Davis wrote,

There was, at first, a broad, ribbon-shaped current arising from the epigastrium. As it ascended, it separated, and expanded into a sort of fleecy steam-cloud, about three feet above the bosom, in the air where the effulgent elements assumed the form of an inverted pyramid with a turbinate envelope, which was, by a strong psychical cord, attached to the solar ganglia, a sort of linea alba tube.

The inverted pyramidal cloud gradually assumed an oval shape externally, amid, internally, a representation of the perfect ellipse, approximating to a globular form, and with a throbbing sun-bright nucleus, which seemed like the germ-cell from which, in a few moments, the miracle would be wrought of an immediate incubation, rapidly resulting in the production of a full-formed and indescribably perfect angel man!

An illustration commissioned by Davis shows a luminous oval cloud issuing from the supine patient's midsection and head. Though two cords are shown connecting the cloud to the patient, the idea seems to be that there is only one cord (the "broad, ribbon-shaped current"), which begins at the solar plexus and then gradually moves up to the head.

Once the cloud is fully formed, the patient's spirit flows through it "with lightning rapidity and vividness," forming a full-sized replica of the patient's body, starting with the head and working downward. In the illustration this body is shown still inside the now-expanded cloud, hovering vertically over the patient in a standing position.

Before the outline of the immortal head was visible, I observed that the cloud-like appearance of the emulations, as a whole, manifested several remarkable innate movements. There were vertical motions, upward and downward; lateral motions, like an anchored balloon, from side to side; then rotatory or gyrating motions, like a spinning-top immediately before losing its momentum. These various graceful motions completely subsided, and the whole became absolutely still, when the formation had advanced sufficiently to unfold the head and bust.

It was remarkable, the perfect progressiveness manifested in each succeeding stage of development. The two men patients were leaving the earth together, with only a few feet of airy space between; yet they were as absolutely without consciousness of each other's existence as though they were departing with the earth's entire diameter between them. In reality, there was no self consciousness in either during the metamorphosis. One was being born (or, in earthly words, one was dying) about an hour in advance of the other; which interesting difference gave me, as a medical student an opportunity to classify the successive stages of the marvelous process.

Davis goes on to say that the spirit, once separated from the body, enters a bright light and emerges in a heavenly environment surrounded by departed loved ones.

-----

If the "Myers" communication in Beyond Human Personality is accurate, then what Davis saw was not an original formation of the etheric double but its re-formation after separating from the physical body.  The etheric double, which previously served mainly as the interface between the mind/soul and the earthly body,  becomes the only vehicle through which the person's mind/soul operates,  now that his earthly vehicle is defunct.

In comments, both Michael Tymn and Zerdini give additional examples of such "eyewitness accounts." Such accounts are fairly common; here are a few cases collected by William Barrett.

The idea of the etheric double seems to address the issue of how the mind/soul can continue to be individuated and distinctly personal when the physical brain is no more. It has a long pedigree and has won acceptance in many cultures, and is a persistent part of modern spiritualist communications.

Of course, one might argue that the double is some sort of Jungian archetype, and that it crops up so persistently in so many places merely because it is a symbol hardwired into the human psyche. Maybe so.

Or maybe "Myers," Davis, and sages throughout history have known what they were talking about, and there really is a spirit double that continues to receive our consciousness after we pass on. 

Comments

[Michael Tymn]

From "A Curious Life," by George Wehner (a clairvoyant),1929: “A misty blue-white form, the counterpart of my mother’s, but radiant, like a blue-white diamond’s flame, was slowly rising from her body on the bed,” he recorded. “This form lifted at an angle, the feet rising higher than the head, which remained attached to the physical head. The form now seemed to try to free itself, and after several tugs, the misty head separated from the body’s head, and the freed form righted itself in the air exactly as a log rights itself after it has been dropped into deep water. For a second, I saw several arms and hands materialize in the air and reach downward to welcome the new-born soul. Then, like a shadow, the spirit-form of my beloved mother glided rapidly upward through a corner of the ceiling.”

[Zerdini]

Estelle Roberts, the most versatile medium of the twentieth century, demonstrated every psychic gift from psychometry to materialization, in her book, “Fifty Years a Medium”, describes the passing of her husband:

“I stayed with him until far into the night. He died while looking at me. At the moment of his passing I heard strange, terrifying noises coming from the kitchen.

It was as though someone was rending linen and, every now and then, cracking a whip. It was an eerie, uncanny experience which, coming at that particular time, was unnerving. For some moments I sat unable to move; then the sounds ceased.

“I looked again at dear Hugh, recalling the happiness we had enjoyed together, and while I sat there I saw his spirit leave the body. It emerged from the back of his head and gradually moulded itself into an exact replica of his earthly body. It remained suspended about a foot above the body, lying in the same position, and attached to it by a cord to the head. Then the cord broke and the spirit form floated away, passing through the wall.

“I went into the kitchen to get some water to wash his face and hands, and an astonishing sight met my eyes. All the wallpaper on one side of the twelve- foot room was hanging from the wall in strips. This, then, was the explanation of the rending noise, which I had heard as my husband died. It was the first physical manifestation of spirit power I had experienced. I could not explain the occurrence, yet I intuitively understood its meaning. It was, I believed, a symbol of the rending of the veil.”

[Zerdini]

"Or maybe "Myers," Davis, and sages throughout history have known what they were talking about, and there really is a spirit double - like a spare suit of clothes on the rack - waiting patiently to receive our consciousness when we pass on."

The spirit double is attached to the physical body by a silver cord which can be of infinite length thus enabling us to travel freely away from the body.

It moves away from the body thus enabling the physical body to sleep.

Our consciousness is already part of the spirit self and therefore the spirit body doesn't need to 'wait patiently' to receive consciousness - it's already there.

When the silver cord is severed through natural means, accident or design is when we 'die' to the physical world and are then in the next phase of life.

The whole process is as natural as being born into this world.

'As above so below' - 'as within so without'

[Michael Prescott]

Zerdini: "Our consciousness is already part of the spirit self and therefore the spirit body doesn't need to 'wait patiently' to receive consciousness - it's already there."

Excellent point. What you've said agrees with the "Myers" communication. "Myers" said:

"But the soul has to work through the medium of the double and never directly commands matter. Always there is this unifying body which comes between the self and his outward appearance in the material world."

I overstated (or misstated) the case when I said the etheric double is purely passive and deactivated. I was thinking that the double is more active during sleep, but it doesn't follow that the double is inactive the rest of the time. I guess it would be more correct to say the double is more *independently* active during sleep.

I'll go back and fix the post.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

for me it's clear that Estelle Roberts was a fraud.

While hailed by Spiritualists, she would never allow trained observers to examine her work. She even gave a demonstration of Spiritualism in the august surroundings of the House of Commons in Britain, but she turned down a formal offer from the Society for Psychical Research to investigate her physical mediumship.

Real mediums don't refuse scientific investigation.

[william]

“For me it's clear that Estelle Roberts was a fraud.”

Not allowing researchers into your séances does not make it clear for me at least that she was a fraud and not allowing oneself to be studied by the society for psychical research organization also does not make it clear she was a fraud. It is data that must be considered when making a personal determination but only data not proof to me at least that she was a fraud.

The society for psychical research folks in her years of mediumship if I remember right took a turn from being interested researchers into the paranormal to a mentality that paranormal was not possible and of not accepting any data that appeared to be showing communication from the other side. They even had some internal battles over the stance they appeared to be taking and some researchers resigned in protest.

Kind of like the ultra skeptic’s organization today. After all these ultra skeptics claim to understand the scientific method but their experiments and responses to others research appear to show otherwise. I.e. mind already made up. Darn paradigms again.

I am amazed that a group of very well educated men could call what they did to a Russian girl a well-designed experiment. If you ever want to study an ill planned and maybe a deceptive experiment study this experiment. They appeared to understand little about statistical analyses and significant variables and as much as possible controlling those variables not being measured. I.e. their process lacked in so many ways.

Estelle may have felt rightly or wrongly that she was very wise not to let researchers into her séances. Also what few people understand is that with many mediums the sitters can influence the outcome? I.e. room energy thing?

[Michael Tymn]

"for me it's clear that Estelle Roberts was a fraud."

Vitor, I totally disagree with you. There have been a number of mediums besides Estelle Roberts who refused the insults of scientific controls. Their position has been "take-it-or-leave it." Also, it seems well established that the negativity introduced by skeptical scientists often frustrates the phenomena. It may well have been that Estelle Roberts' guides told her that her temperament was such that she would not be able to produce under such conditions. I hate to use this somewhat crude example, one which I have used before, but it is like a male being put on a stage and told to undress and immediately produce an erection. Under such conditions, most men couldn't do it, at least immediately. Some could after a time, while a small percentage, the uninhibited, might be able to do it instantaneously. It's one of those things in which the harder you try, the more you fail. It has to come spontaneiously and some mediums are of a temperament that they start to try when they know something is expected. Then, when they try, it doesn't happen. It just has to develop without trying. At least, that is my understanding of it all.

[Zerdini]

Many reserchers attended her seances but I feel she was well-advised not to allow herself to be tested by the SPR.

That was not the purpose of her mediumship. The purpose was to comfort the bereaved and heal the sick - that she did admirably.

For Vitor to state she was a fraud without a scrap of evidence to back up his assertion says more about him than it does about her.

[Paul W]

Perhaps she did not feel the need to prove anything to a bunch of scientist or anyone else for that matter. It is possible to infer a number of possible reasons for this but to assume fraud is the only reason is not reasonable.

[Michael Tymn]

Let me add to my above comment, as well as to Zerdini's appropriate remarks.

In his book, "Forty Years of Psychic Research," Hamlin Garland tells of waiting as long as four hours for something to happen, i.e., for the medium to be relaxed and passive enough to enter the trance state. With Mary Curryear Smith, whom he refers to as "Mrs. Smiley," he observed some very impressive phenomena, but when he brought her from California to Boston to demonstrate before others, she failed in the first three or four sittings. Garland felt she was too anxious to impress other, i.e., trying too hard. In fifth or sixth sitting, things started happening after about an hour and a half of waiting. Books started flying off the shelves of Professor Amos Dolbear's library and stacking themselves on top of each other. Garland could see large hands stacking them. Only Garland, Dolbear, Mrs. Dolbear, and the medium were present. He began hearing from a male voice through the truphet. He asked the voice to sign his name to one of the books, which he did. The phenomena went on for an hour and half. But the point is, that most scientists would have given up before an hour and a half. This is one reason why many genuine mediums have declined to be studied by researchers.

[william]

“It has to come spontaneously and some mediums are of a temperament that they start to try when they know something is expected. Then, when they try, it doesn't happen. It just has to develop without trying. At least, that is my understanding of it all.”

This is why I think anyone interested in doing research using the traditional scientific method with physical phenomena must think differently when doing research with paranormal phenomena.

Until we experience these paranormal phenomena ourselves we tend to remain very skeptical of the paranormal. I have had the opportunity to experience paranormal phenomena with a heavy object moving all on its own once not for one or two seconds but about 20 to 30 seconds when I was very young. I.e. 19. It was scary to say the least. It was so scary I could not stand to watch it for more than a couple of seconds then I would turn my head away for a brief time. I kept that incident to myself for 27 years and told no one. I.e. no one.

My wife had the opportunity to experience paranormal phenomena two years ago and if anyone tried to tell her what was happening in that lighted room in the middle of the day in a hospital with a sister as a witness was just an accident, coincidence, or hallucination she would laugh at them.

When she was getting into her car to travel to California to see her very ill brother I stated to her if he starts looking around the room ask him what he sees. Well that turned out to be good unsolicited advice because he did indeed start looking around the room and when my wife asked him what he saw a heavy physical object moved on its own after each question. The emotion in her voice a few minutes later when she called me after he had passed was interesting as she kept stating you won’t believe this, you won’t believe this several times. It really shook her and her sister up to say the least.

That experience of hers and others who have had similar experiences will be in a book due to be published in January. It appears that with life we have to experience it to know it is real.

[Vitor]

William,

my comments:

01- The society for psychical research folks in her years of mediumship if I remember right took a turn from being interested researchers into the paranormal to a mentality that paranormal was not possible and of not accepting any data that appeared to be showing communication from the other side.

I disagree. Estelle Robert was born in 1889 and died in 1970. Gladys Osborne Leonard was born in 1882 and died in 1968. Both were British. Both lived in the same era. Osborne has today her name wrote in golden letters in psychical literature, and she was a physical medium too, with many reports of direct voice. The mentality of the researchers can't be the reason.

[Vitor]

Michael Tymm,

my comments:

01- Vitor, I totally disagree with you. There have been a number of mediums besides Estelle Roberts who refused the insults of scientific controls.

And I really think that this kind of medium is a fraud. Besides, scientific controls are not insults. The medium need scientific control because without this the medium can cheat even if is a genuine one, just remember Palladino. I would say that scientific control is a protection to the medium herself.

02- Their position has been "take-it-or-leave it." Also, it seems well established that the negativity introduced by skeptical scientists often frustrates the phenomena.

Just remember Osborne Leonard. She was a genuine mental and physical medium, accepted scientific control, there was no negativity introduced by skeptical scientists. No one was more skeptical than Hodgson, and Piper had good results with him.

It may well have been that Estelle Roberts' guides told her that her temperament was such that she would not be able to produce under such conditions.

And why she have to believe in her guides? Estelle Roberts' guides were wrong in many times. Look this example:

Estelle admitted that Red Cloud, as a
number of prominent guides of other mediums, made a mistake in 1939 when
he predicted there would be no war. Estelle explained that wrong predictions were caused through looking at the current circumstances and making a judgment from these, i.e. a 'forecast only on probabilities, on a knowledge of the
facts and a careful weighing of them'.(24)
In fact, indicating the peril of accepting predictions as unfailing, it is worthwhile
noting that the forecast of there being no war from various communicators was one of the principal reasons for the decline in Spiritualism after the Second World War: 'The outbreak of war in September hit Spiritualism with devastating force...a section of the movement...had explicitly accepted certain predictions made by the spirits through their mediums about the possibility of war...The movement has never recovered its pre-war position'.(25) In view of the consequences, this aspect in communications is something that should be constantly kept in mind.

By the way, Feda, Osborne's guide, predict that the first war would come.

In March 1914, "Feda" gave instructions that Leonard must begin work as a professional medium as soon as possible. At the same time the medium was deluged with messages ending with the words: "Something big and terrible is going to happen to the world. Feda must help many people through you."

03-I hate to use this somewhat crude example, one which I have used before, but it is like a male being put on a stage and told to undress and immediately produce an erection. Under such conditions, most men couldn't do it, at least immediately. Some could after a time, while a small percentage, the uninhibited, might be able to do it instantaneously. It's one of those things in which the harder you try, the more you fail. It has to come spontaneiously and some mediums are of a temperament that they start to try when they know something is expected. Then, when they try, it doesn't happen. It just has to develop without trying. At least, that is my understanding of it all.

Well, I really think that she could give a try at least. Osborne and the researchers would understand this.

Leonard became a professional singer early in her adult life and during this period acquired experimental acquaintance with the phenomena of Spiritualism through table-turning experiences. She sat with two girlfriends in her dressing room. After 26 futile attempts, a communicator appeared who called herself "Feda" and said that in life she had been the wife of one of Leonard's ancestors.

Osborne could even help Roberts with her mediumship.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

more comments:

01-That was not the purpose of her mediumship. The purpose was to comfort the bereaved and heal the sick - that she did admirably.

Yes, and destroy the Spiritualist movement with wrong predictions too. She did this admirably too.

02- For Vitor to state she was a fraud without a scrap of evidence to back up his assertion says more about him than it does about her.

If the decline of the Spiritualism thanks to her, wrong predictions and her refuse to scientific control are not good evidence for you that she was a fraud, nothing will be. What do you want, a confession?

[Zerdini]

Vitor

01 - Spiritualism is not about predictions - it is about evidence of survival.

The Spiritualist movement has not been destroyed - another false assumption.

02 - The definition of fraud is NOT based on the refusal to allow oneself to be tested by the SPR neither have predictions of any sort anything to do with fraud.

The evidence given by Estelle Roberts over fifty years stands on its own merit.

Vitor wake up and smell the coffee!

[Zerdini]

Here is an example of her mediumship:

Royal Albert Hall, London, March 31st, 1948

Demonstration by Estelle Roberts:

Mrs Estelle Roberts commenced her demonstration by trying to contact a person in the very top gallery of the Royal Albert Hall, but after giving some evidence of the return of a spirit, it became clear that the difficulties of speaking to the recipient, at so great a distance made it impossible to continue further.

Turning to a lady in one of the galleries on the immediate right hand of the stage, she gave the name of Taylor. Mrs. Roberts made a very fruitful contact, and was able to convey a considerable amount of acceptable evidence of spirit return.

“Do you know George?” (Yes) ‘‘William?” (Mother’s brother.) “Jimmy?” (Yes.) “He speaks of Emily.” (Yes, my mother-in-law.)
“Elizabeth?” (Yes.) “Ann” (Yes.) “Fred”. (Yes.) “Jane-Jenny - cousin of mother? ‘ (Yes) “Arthur is with them. “ (Arthur who?) – “Just a, moment, I will ask him for his surname - Arthur Mitchell.’’ (Yes.) ‘‘He reminds you of an anniversary just now.’’ (Yes, my wedding.) ‘‘I now get Flora Annie Williams, you called her Aunt Flossie when a young girl.’’ (Correct)

‘‘I now receive the name of a gentleman Geoffrey Scott; you used to call him Scottie; he had auburn hair and a freckled face; you have a photo of him with Teddy, they are leaning over their bicycles.’’

Mrs. Roberts then gave several anniversary dates. “There is one on April 12th,” she said. (Yes my sister).
“She hasn’t forgotten. The 14th June?” (Mother’s birthday) “16th October?” (Anniversary of my father’s passing). “2nd December? ‘‘ (Father’s birthday.) “All convey their love to you.”

“I don’t know you, do I?” (No, not at all.)

“I want someone named Mrs Andrew,” said Mrs Roberts facing the body of the hall. A lady responded.

“Your husband is here, and is calling Mary.” (Yes) ‘‘He on the platform and I have never seen anyone so excited before. Has he recently, passed over, about four or five months ago?” (Yes, only six weeks)

“He has met John - known as Jack.” (Yes.) “He says that the pain that he endured in the physical body has all gone, he can now walk about everywhere. ‘Give my love to the boys’, he calls. He will be with you on the anniversary in June.” (Yes.)
“As soon as it is possible he will help to adjust your physical condition especially your arms, legs, and feet.” (That’s true)

“I do not know you, do I?” (No.)

Mrs Roberts gave several more messages which were accepted.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

more comments:

01- Spiritualism is not about predictions - it is about evidence of survival.

One more reason to scientific control.

02-The Spiritualist movement has not been destroyed - another false assumption.

Oh, yes, just change the name to 'New Age' movement.

03- The definition of fraud is NOT based on the refusal to allow oneself to be tested by the SPR neither have predictions of any sort anything to do with fraud. The evidence given by Estelle Roberts over fifty years stands on its own merit.

Wrong. Here in Brazil the most famous medium we have was Chico Xavier. While alive, his purpose was to comfort the bereaved and heal the sick in EIGHTY YEARS OF 'MEDIUMSHIP'. He sell millions of books saying that were the spirits who wrote them, and gave all the money to charity. During a part of his life, he cure many people using homeopathy (he never asked money for this). Very nice, isn't? Still, he was a fraud. Never accepted scientific control, his guide never existed, there is many evidence of cold reading and the books have passages copied of others famous books that I and others discovered.

So, I am really not impressed by Estelle Roberts. I'm sorry.

[Vitor]

Mrs Roberts gave several more messages which were accepted.

For me, the extract you gave is another proof that she was a fraud. The names are the most hard thing to speak by the spirits, and she gave the names so easily... Chico Xavier did the same thing. Roberts could use cold or hot reading, have an accomplice or more, there are many explanations for this.

[Vitor]

Zerdini, you can download a book in english about Xavier's life and mediumship here:

http://www.sgny.org/main/Books/Life_triumph_SAB03.pdf

In page 17, first paragraph, you will see how Xavier get the information about family's members. The authors, unfortunely, are very ingenuous, and they think that the informations in many cases were obtained by clairvoyance, but is only cold reading.

[Ulysses]

Vitor,
>> Here in Brazil the most famous medium we have was Chico Xavier ... Very nice, isn't? Still, he was a fraud.

So, Vitor, according to you all those millions of Brazilian who are convinced that Chico Xavier’s mediumship is genuine, including researchers like by Guy Lyon Playfair and others, are they just frauds too, or just stupid?

[Vitor]

Ulysses,

I don't know if Playfair investigated Xavier or just had read what others have wrote about the medium. It seems to me that the second option is the correct, after all, Xavier never accepted scientific investigation. In this case, Playfair would not be stupid, in fact, myself only discover that Xavier was a fraud thanks to a great piece of luck than anything else.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:

Zerdini,more comments:

01-

One more reason to scientific control.

01 - Why? It is to comfort the mourner not to impress researchers.

02-The Spiritualist movement has not been destroyed - another false assumption.

Oh, yes, just change the name to 'New Age' movement.

02 - It has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'New Age' movement.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:

03- The definition of fraud is NOT based on the refusal to allow oneself to be tested by the SPR neither have predictions of any sort anything to do with fraud. The evidence given by Estelle Roberts over fifty years stands on its own merit.

"Wrong. Here in Brazil the most famous medium we have was Chico Xavier. While alive, his purpose was to comfort the bereaved and heal the sick in EIGHTY YEARS OF 'MEDIUMSHIP'. He sell millions of books saying that were the spirits who wrote them, and gave all the money to charity. During a part of his life, he cure many people using homeopathy (he never asked money for this). Very nice, isn't? Still, he was a fraud. Never accepted scientific control, his guide never existed, there is many evidence of cold reading and the books have passages copied of others famous books that I and others discovered.

So, I am really not impressed by Estelle Roberts. I'm sorry."

No need to be sorry. What on earth has Estelle Roberts' mediumship got to do with Chico Xavier?

By the way, did you know Chico Xavier or ever see him at work?

[Ulysses]

Vitor,
There is no doubt that you have read extensively on the subject matter of mediumship research, although I disagree with your assessment on Chico Xavier based on my own experience with some Brazilian friends who know Chico’s story much better than I do since I’m not Brazilian, but let me ask you the question differently: From your point of view is there any medium, past or present, who is not a fraud?

[Zerdini]

Zerdini, you can download a book in english about Xavier's life and mediumship here:

Thank you vitor but I have read the book. I am not new to the subject.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:

"For me, the extract you gave is another proof that she was a fraud. The names are the most hard thing to speak by the spirits, and she gave the names so easily... Chico Xavier did the same thing. Roberts could use cold or hot reading, have an accomplice or more, there are many explanations for this."

Estelle Roberts was an outstanding clairaudient which is why she was able to give names apparently so easily. For you to make such absurd statements beggars belief.

It's easy to make allegations of hot or cold reading but you have to back it up with evidence and that you haven't got.

Your attempts to justify your beliefs only make you look foolish.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

01-No need to be sorry. What on earth has Estelle Roberts' mediumship got to do with Chico Xavier?

a) Both never accepted scientific investigation.

b) Both gave names very easily, and in psychic literature we found the opposite.

c) Both had guides that never existed, or at least could not proof their existence.

02-By the way, did you know Chico Xavier or ever see him at work?

Only in videos.

[Vitor]

Ulysses,

01-There is no doubt that you have read extensively on the subject matter of mediumship research, although I disagree with your assessment on Chico Xavier based on my own experience with some Brazilian friends who know Chico’s story much better than I do since I’m not Brazilian, but let me ask you the question differently: From your point of view is there any medium, past or present, who is not a fraud?

Of course. Piper and Osborne were genuine. Malcolm Bessent, Sean Harribance and Ingo Swann seems to be genuine too. At least, they were never caught in cheat, and always accepted scientific control.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

01-Estelle Roberts was an outstanding clairaudient which is why she was able to give names apparently so easily. For you to make such absurd statements beggars belief.

But that's not the modus operandi of mediumship! Read the studies about Leonard, and you will see why names are not easy to speak. And again, her mediumship and Xavier's mediumship are almost identical. And Xavier was a fraud. It's not belief, it's only inference.

02-It's easy to make allegations of hot or cold reading but you have to back it up with evidence and that you haven't got.

Her mediumship and behavior has the same pattern of fraud. That's evidence.

03-Your attempts to justify your beliefs only make you look foolish.

Well, for me, someone who belives in anedoctal cases is the fool.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:

a) Both never accepted scientific investigation.

So you believe that the Society for Psychical Research is qualified to pronounce judgement on mediums do you. On what evidence?

b) Both gave names very easily, and in psychic literature we found the opposite.

In the UK it is not uncommon for clairaudient mediums to give names. Because you haven't found it in psychic literature doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

c) Both had guides that never existed, or at least could not proof their existence.

What does that prove?

02-By the way, did you know Chico Xavier or ever see him at work?

Only in videos.

So you base your belief and theories on on videos? Hmmm!

My views are based on personal experience.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:

01-Estelle Roberts was an outstanding clairaudient which is why she was able to give names apparently so easily. For you to make such absurd statements beggars belief.

But that's not the modus operandi of mediumship! Read the studies about Leonard, and you will see why names are not easy to speak. And again, her mediumship and Xavier's mediumship are almost identical. And Xavier was a fraud. It's not belief, it's only inference.

I have all the Osborne Leonard books. I have never said names are easy to transmit but equally they are not impossible. That is what made Estelle Roberts such an outstanding medium. Inference, like belief, is of no interest to me. I prefer facts and evidence.

02-It's easy to make allegations of hot or cold reading but you have to back it up with evidence and that you haven't got.

Her mediumship and behavior has the same pattern of fraud. That's evidence.

Of course it isn't evidence - don't be silly.

03-Your attempts to justify your beliefs only make you look foolish.

Well, for me, someone who belives in anedoctal cases is the fool.

I agree - it does seem to make you look foolish. Mine is based on personal experience.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

01- So you believe that the Society for Psychical Research is qualified to pronounce judgement on mediums do you. On what evidence?

I didn't say that. What I am saying is that there was no reason to Roberts refuse scientific investigation unless she was a fraud. Osborne accepted and she is considered a wonderful medium.

02-In the UK it is not uncommon for clairaudient mediums to give names.

Neither in Brazil. But in both places there is no scientific control. That's why is so easy.

03-Because you haven't found it in psychic literature doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

But I found the same pattern of fraud. And this mean a lot...

04-What does that prove?

It's an evidence of self-dellusion. It's not a proof, but a good start.

05-So you base your belief and theories on on videos? Hmmm!

No. My conclusions are based in what I found in the psychic literature and in the evidences of fraud that I found in his books. Xavier copied many extracts of Ernest Renan, Fritz Khan, Luiz Delfino. Probably there are others.

06-My views are based on personal experience.

And my views are based in an extensive literature and in my own research.

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

01- I have all the Osborne Leonard books. I have never said names are easy to transmit but equally they are not impossible. That is what made Estelle Roberts such an outstanding medium. Inference, like belief, is of no interest to me. I prefer facts and evidence.

Science is largely based on inference. And fraud has a pattern, a model. And this model is very useful, because we can recognize a real medium and a false medium very quickly. It's the same thing with CORTs. We already know the model of fraud in these cases. In false CORTs, the characteristics are:

a) The child start to talk about the previous life in a higher age, like 11, 12. In the real CORTs, the child start to talk about the previous life with 3, 4 years old.

b) The child identify a famous person as the previous life, and not a common person like in real CORts.

So, it's very important to know the characteristics of fraud. And we have a model of fraud to mediumship too. And Roberts unfortunely fits in this model.

02- Of course it isn't evidence - don't be silly.

It is evidence, and a very useful one. See above.

[Zerdini]

01- So you believe that the Society for Psychical Research is qualified to pronounce judgement on mediums do you. On what evidence?

I didn't say that. What I am saying is that there was no reason to Roberts refuse scientific investigation unless she was a fraud. Osborne accepted and she is considered a wonderful medium.

01 - There was every reason to refuse. What makes you think that the SPR is qualified to make a scientific investigation?
The SPR has a wide range of membership and does not express a corporate opinion on anything.

02-In the UK it is not uncommon for clairaudient mediums to give names.

Neither in Brazil. But in both places there is no scientific control. That's why is so easy.

You said and I quote: "Read the studies about Leonard, and you will see why names are not easy to speak."

If it was easy all mediums would be able to do it.

03-Because you haven't found it in psychic literature doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

But I found the same pattern of fraud. And this mean a lot...

There is no pattern of fraud except in your mind.

04-What does that prove?

It's an evidence of self-dellusion. It's not a proof, but a good start.

Keep this up and you'll convince yourself!

05-So you base your belief and theories on on videos? Hmmm!

No. My conclusions are based in what I found in the psychic literature and in the evidences of fraud that I found in his books. Xavier copied many extracts of Ernest Renan, Fritz Khan, Luiz Delfino. Probably there are others.

You haven't found any evidence of fraud maybe plagiarism regarding Xavire but certainly NOT regarding Mrs Roberts.

06-My views are based on personal experience.

And my views are based in an extensive literature and in my own research.

Amd mine are also based on an extensive literature and my own research plus my personal experinces.

[Michael Prescott]

I don't know anything about Estelle Roberts other than what I've read in this thread, but I would be wary of accepting a medium on the basis of a public performance. There are so many unknown variables.

Reading the account of her appearance in the Royal Albert Hall, I was reminded of a very similar performance by Doris Stokes, recounted by Ian Wilson in his book "The After Death Experience." Stokes gave all sorts of accurate information to selected members of a large audience. Later, however, Wilson discovered that the audience members in question were previously known to Stokes, and that Stokes had actually sent them tickets to the event!

Here's a summary from a Web site:

"Much of Mrs Stokes' success can be attributed to 'plants' in the audience, or to the fact that there are those in the audience with whose background she is familiar. Ian Wilson exposed Doris Stokes as a fraud in his book, The After Death Experience, published in 1987, in which he proves conclusively that she knew those in the audience she called out, or at least knew of them. They had contacted her and in many cases, she had actually sent them tickets for seats in the front rows of her performances. These 'plants' were entirely innocent believers, participating unwittingly in the fraud."

Source: http://snipurl.com/ksmk8

[Art]

"Well, for me, someone who belives in anedoctal cases is the fool." - Vitor
---------------------------

LOL! When it's all said and done what does it matter what someone believes? Perhaps it's not what we believe that matters but instead the information that we have been exposed to. If and when the time comes, if we ever need the information, it will be there retrieveable for us to use. Perhaps belief is irrelevant?

"If this doesn't blow your socks off, then Hogan, who has just been appointed director of Fermilab's Center for Particle Astrophysics, has an even bigger shock in store: "If the GEO600 result is what I suspect it is, then we are all living in a giant cosmic hologram." - excerpt from online article in New Scientist Magazine
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world...

"This was very pleasant and comforting and went on for microseconds or billions of years, I have no idea since time just wasn't an operative construct and had no meaning or relevance to existence. I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE,
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr

[Vitor]

Zerdini,

my last comments:

01- There was every reason to refuse. What makes you think that the SPR is qualified to make a scientific investigation?

The honesty and integrity of their members. Just look the scientists who tested Leonard. It's really unbelivable that you are questioning their qualifications.

02- The SPR has a wide range of membership and does not express a corporate opinion on anything.

And I never said anything like that. I just said it's very strange a genuine medium to refuse a scientific investigation, specially an investigation by SPR (of course, if it was a CSICOP's investigation, I would understand why she turned down a formal offer :-)

Best wishes.

[Zerdini]

Vitor wrote:
my last comments:

01- There was every reason to refuse. What makes you think that the SPR is qualified to make a scientific investigation?

The honesty and integrity of their members. Just look the scientists who tested Leonard. It's really unbelivable that you are questioning their qualifications.

02- The SPR has a wide range of membership and does not express a corporate opinion on anything.

And I never said anything like that. I just said it's very strange a genuine medium to refuse a scientific investigation, specially an investigation by SPR (of course, if it was a CSICOP's investigation, I would understand why she turned down a formal offer :-)

Best wishes.

01-I never questioned their qualifications.
Estelle Roberts chose not to sit for the SPR - that was her right.

02-It might be strange to you but not to me.
The SPR have no more right to conduct an investigation than anyone else.

Best wishes.

[Zerdini]

Michael Prescott wrote:

"I don't know anything about Estelle Roberts other than what I've read in this thread, but I would be wary of accepting a medium on the basis of a public performance. There are so many unknown variables."

You are quite right to be wary of accepting a medium on the basis of a single public performance. I simply picked one as an example and because it was in the Royal Albert Hall before eight thousand people. The other demonstrator that day was Helen Hughes also a an excellent clairaudient medium.

The famous journalist, Hannen Swaffer, said, in a dynamic speech, speaking of the work of those celebrated mediums, Mrs Estelle Roberts and Mrs Helen Hughes, that he had spoken with them in town after town, and had challenged the representatives of the press to interview the recipients of the messages, follow them to their homes, and try to disprove one message.

The challenge had never been accepted.

But suppose we had had fifty Estelle Roberts’ and fifty Helen Hughes', we could have proved our case triumphantly over the whole of Britain.

[Jime]

For Zerdini, Vitor and Ulysses,

What do you think of Allan Kardec?

Vitor, I know Julio Siqueira has a website on it, but my portuguese is poor; it would be good if he traslates some of this information on Kardec to english.

Also, for all of you 3, what do you think of John Sloan?

I'm reading On the Edge of the Etheric book again (this is the four time I read it) and I'm very impressed with it. Is there any evidence of fraud in Sloan?

Thanks

[Vitor]

Jime,

all you need to know about Allan Kardec is that he was a good man but his methodology to proof spirits was very poor/problematic and the Spirit's Book has many scientific errors.

I have On the Edge of the Etheric (No Limiar do Etéreo, in Portuguese) but I still didn't read, so I can't say anything by now.

[Zerdini]

According to vitor any medium who doesn't undergo 'scientific'teating must be a fraud!

[Zerdini]

Allan Kardec - real name - Hippolyte Léon Denizard Rivail was not a medium but in his early fifties put questions to mediums and their guides from which he compiled his books.

[Zerdini]

John Campbell Sloan was born in Dalbeattie, Scotland. He was a humble man who could sometimes be rather grumpy in outlook, but his mediumistic gifts were quite astonishing. In his presence, discarnate chemists and other specialists in the spirit world were able to extract from him, and from his sitters, a psychic substance called ectoplasm (a kind of plasmic life-fluid) which they then 'moulded' into a voice-box through which their voices could be heard again in our world. John Sloan is one of the unsung heroes of psychic history who, for over forty years, gave his mediumistic services free of charge to all his sitters.

There was never any suggestion of fraud in any of his seances.

[Paul W]

Edge of the Etheric is a very interesting book. It is hard to dismiss unless one regards Findlay as a fraud or amazingly stupid.

[Vitor]

According to vitor any medium who doesn't undergo 'scientific'teating must be a fraud!

No, Zerdini. Only the mediums who refuse scientific investigation. Certainly there are real mediums who Science never heard of them and therefore Science never asked an investigation. Worst, we have cases of mediums that Science itself refused to investigate, like Daniel Home or Florence Cook. Crookes invited many scientists to help him in his research, but almost no one did.

Unfortunely Estelle Roberts is in the first group. Maybe Helen Hughes too?

[Zerdini]

No Vitor - mediums are quite entitled to refuse scientific investigation (whatever that means!) if they so wish. That does not make them frauds.

The SPR is made up of all sorts of individuals, very few being scientists. They have no qualifications for investigating mediums any more than the man-in-the-street.

By the way you said earlier that it was your last post.

[Zerdini]

Regarding Sir William Crookes:

In an early article (1870), he declares: "Views or opinions I cannot be said to possess on a subject I do not pretend to understand…. I prefer to enter upon the inquiry with no preconceived notions whatever as to what can or cannot be, but with all my senses alert and ready to convey information to the brain; believing, as I do, that we have by no means exhausted all human knowledge or fathomed the depths of all the physical forces."

The investigation had been suggested to him "by eminent men exercising great influence on the thought of the country." Another sentence of the article throws light on his expectations: "The increased employment of scientific methods promote exact observation and greater love of truth among inquirers, and will produce a race of observers who will drive the worthless residuum of spiritualism hence into the unknown limbo of magic and necromancy."

Newspaper reporters received the announcement with jubilation. It was taken for granted that Spiritualism would be shown as clear and simple humbug. They were disappointed. The investigation began in May 1871, after the return of D. D.Home from Russia. It was witnessed by Crookes's chemical assistant, Williams; his brother Walter; Sir William Huggins, the eminent physicist and astronomer, and ex-president of the Royal Society; and Sergeant E. W. Cox, a prominent lawyer.

The secretaries of the Royal Society refused Crookes's invitation to participate. His report was submitted to the Royal Society on June 15, 1871, but his communications were refused because they did not demonstrate the fallacy of the alleged marvels of Spiritualism. Even the inscription of the title of the paper in the society's publications was denied.

It was only from the July 1871 issue of the Quarterly Journal of Science that the public became acquainted with the first account of Crookes's observations. This account contained the description of a séance held at Crookes's house in a well lit room, in which the alteration of the weight of bodies and the playing of an accordion without hands was attested by specially designed apparatus. Said Crookes, "Of all the persons endowed with a powerful development of this Psychic Force … Mr. Daniel Dunglas Home is the most remarkable, and it is mainly owing to the many opportunities I have had of carrying on my investigation in his presence that I am enabled to affirm so conclusively the existence of this force."

[Vitor]

No Vitor - mediums are quite entitled to refuse scientific investigation (whatever that means!) if they so wish. That does not make them frauds.

That MAKE them frauds... in a reasonable level of evidence. A spirit guide who don't want to help Science can't be a good one. A medium who don't want to help Science certainly has fear of something. But in the case of Estelle Roberts, we have much more than this. Her mediumship simply fits in what we expected in false mediumship, not in real mediumship.

The SPR is made up of all sorts of individuals, very few being scientists. They have no qualifications for investigating mediums any more than the man-in-the-street.

So who? WHO has qualifications?

By the way you said earlier that it was your last post.

Yes, but you put words in my mouth, so I have to appear again and explain your mistake.

[Zerdini]

vitor - you can huff and puff as much as you like but you have no evidence that Estelle Roberts was a fraud and you will never find any.

How do you define real and false mediumship?

By agreeing to be investigated by scientists?

I'm sorry that is simply not acceptable.

You also stated: "Worst, we have cases of mediums that Science itself refused to investigate, like Daniel Home or Florence Cook."

William Crookes, the leading scientist of the day, DID investigate Daniel Home and Florence Cook.

Read "Researches into the phenomena of Spiritualism" by Crookes.

It has become apparent after reading all your posts that you have no idea what mediumship is. All the reading in the world balanced against personal experience carries no weight and is extremely unscientific.

The mistakes appear to be on your part not mine.