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Zerdini,

01-vitor - you can huff and puff as much as you like but you have no evidence that Estelle Roberts was a fraud and you will never find any.

Well, no one found evidence of fraud in Nina Kulagina also, but I am 99% now sure that she was a fraud. Mirabelli was a Brazilian medium that did exatly what she did, in the same conditions, by fraud. Even their failures were the same. The controls were not good. Robert's mediumship and Xavier's mediumship were very similar, and both were never caught cheating alive, but I and others discover plagiarism in Xavier's writing after his dead. Maybe I can't find a direct evidence of fraud by Roberts, but certainly I found indirect evidence.

02-How do you define real and false mediumship?

False mediumship:

a) the medium give names very easily (Xavier and Robert did this)

b) the medium don't accept tests

c) there is no way to check the existence of the guide (in Xavier's case, a friend of mine proof the inexistence of the guide)

Real mediumship:

Exatly the oposite of a), b), c).

03-By agreeing to be investigated by scientists? I'm sorry that is simply not acceptable.

That's just one of the items.

04- You also stated: "Worst, we have cases of mediums that Science itself refused to investigate, like Daniel Home or Florence Cook."

William Crookes, the leading scientist of the day, DID investigate Daniel Home and Florence Cook.

Yes, and I said that. Go back to my post and read again:

Crookes invited many scientists to help him in his research, but almost no one did.

05-Read "Researches into the phenomena of Spiritualism" by Crookes.

I have the book. Again, I mention Crookes in my post.

06-It has become apparent after reading all your posts that you have no idea what mediumship is. All the reading in the world balanced against personal experience carries no weight and is extremely unscientific.

I can't check your personal experience. Your personal experience will die with you. I don't know you, I don't know if I can trust in your report, because there was no control.

07-The mistakes appear to be on your part not mine.

Sorry, but you can't compare personal experience with evidence adquired by experiments under rigorous control. Millions of people had their personal experience with Chico Xavier and he was a fraud.

Vitor - you don't seem to understand that making unsubstantiated allegations against mediums is not evidence of anything.

01 - Nina Kulagina was not a medium - again you don't seem to know the difference between a medium and a psychc.

You admit you never found direct evidence of fraud in the mediums you happily libel because they are 'dead'.

Comparing mediums abilities to try and prove 'indirect evidence' is a mark of desperation on your part.

'Maybe' is NOT evidence.

I have to go out now but will happily deal with the rest of your statements later.

contd.

02 False mediumship:

a) the medium give names very easily (Xavier and Robert did this)

b) the medium don't accept tests

c) there is no way to check the existence of the guide (in Xavier's case, a friend of mine proof the inexistence of the guide)

(a)I've already explained that Mrs Roberts was an outstanding clairaudient and gave an example of her public mediumship.

Perhaps you would do the same for Xavier so I can compare them.

(b) I already dealt with this.

(c) What has the existence of a guide got to do with evidence of survival? If a guide lived on earth thousands of years ago is it necessary to prove that? (rhetorical question). It doesn't affect the medium's abilities.

04 - Yes, Crookes a leading scientist of his day, did investigate D.D. Home and Florence Cook and came out in their favour.

06 - You state: "I can't check your personal experience. Your personal experience will die with you. I don't know you, I don't know if I can trust in your report, because there was no control."

Equally I can't check your personal experience. I don't know you and your allegations will die with you. My personal experiences will live on as they have been published in various books and on the internet.

Where have yours been published?

I can't trust in your reports because there was no control.

07 - Again you do not produce any evidence that Xavier was a fraud - it is simply your opinion and that is not scientifically acceptable.

Zerdini

01- Vitor - you don't seem to understand that making unsubstantiated allegations against mediums is not evidence of anything.

My allegations HAS substance. They are based in what we can find in psychic literature, in other examples of fraud, in my own research about others false mediums.

02 - Nina Kulagina was not a medium - again you don't seem to know the difference between a medium and a psychc.

I NEVER said she was a medium. It was just an example of someone who was never caught in cheating alive but it was a fraud after all.

03- You admit you never found direct evidence of fraud in the mediums you happily libel because they are 'dead'.

Wrong. I found direct evidence of fraud in Chico Xavier and Mirabelli. Even both already dead, I found many documents that prove their frauds.

04-Comparing mediums abilities to try and prove 'indirect evidence' is a mark of desperation on your part.'Maybe' is NOT evidence.

It is not a mark of desparation, it's just inference.


Vitor

01 - You haven't produced a single piece of evidence to substantiate your claims. it seems it's all in your mind. People have by now read enough to show that you are talking nonsense. It seems pointless to continue this any longer.

02 - You were comparing Kulagina to a medium and there was no comparison. As you now admit Kulagina was never caught cheating neither was Estelle Roberts.

03 - I asked you to produce evidence and you failed to do so.

04 - Inference is NOT evidence of fraud.

Continually repeating yourself without producing any evidence of your claims is wasting my time and yours. I suggest you leave the subject and turn to something you might know something about.

Readers of this blog have enough information now to form their own opinions.

Best wishes.

"I suggest you leave the subject and turn to something you might know something about."

Vitor is quite knowledgeable on the subject of mediumship and has contributed many valuable comments to this blog.

Zerdini also has a thorough knowledge of the subject and has contributed many helpful comments.

Can't we all just get along?

:-)

I have no problem with that Michael. I have read Vitor's comments on mediumship before but did not reply until he started calling certain mediums frauds without a scrap of evidence to back up his assertions.

As far as I am concerned the subject is now closed.

Best wishes.

Zerdini,

I had answered all your others criticisms but my post vanished. Briefly, my research is in Portuguese, and you can find it here:

http://obraspsicografadas.haaan.com/

01- You haven't produced a single piece of evidence to substantiate your claims. it seems it's all in your mind. People have by now read enough to show that you are talking nonsense. It seems pointless to continue this any longer.

Estelle Roberts has the same profile of false mediums. That's evidence, and a good one.

02 - You were comparing Kulagina to a medium and there was no comparison. As you now admit Kulagina was never caught cheating neither was Estelle Roberts.

Kulagina has the same profile of Mirabelli, and he was a fraud. The proofs are here:

http://obraspsicografadas.haaan.com/category/obras-de-carmine-mirabelli/

Both could not move objects if they were wet, they almost always have to touch the objects before or during the experiments, even their clothes were similar. This can't be coincidence. Mirabelli used one hair to move objects, with the help of some kind of wax. That's why the objects could not be wet.

I will continue in another post, Prescott said that the reason for my post vanish could be the excessive number of links.

Zerdini,

I had answered all your others criticisms but my post vanished many times. Briefly, my research is in Portuguese, and you can find it here:

http://obraspsicografadas.haaan.com/

03 - I asked you to produce evidence and you failed to do so.

No, the post vanished. In my blog you will find all proofs against Chico Xavier [plagiarism, inexistence of the guide and even false materializations]and Mirabelli.

04 - Inference is NOT evidence of fraud.

It is if we cand find a lot of coincidences betwenn the behavior of a false medium and someone who the people think that is a real medium. And I have found many coincidences in Estelle Roberts and Chico Xavier.

05-Continually repeating yourself without producing any evidence of your claims is wasting my time and yours. I suggest you leave the subject and turn to something you might know something about.

I suggest you to stop with these ad-hominems, like if I am some kind of stupid, and stop misquoting me. Even Prescott showed a way that Estelle Roberts could have cheated. And I have show others in the same condition that were false mediums.

6-Readers of this blog have enough information now to form their own opinions.

No, they don't, like I said, one of my post disapeared. I will answer your other cristicisms again:

a)What has the existence of a guide got to do with evidence of survival? If a guide lived on earth thousands of years ago is it necessary to prove that? (rhetorical question). It doesn't affect the medium's abilities.

Yes, even a guide that lived on earth thousands of years ago has to prove his existence. That's what Xavier's guide tried to do, he said it was a Roman Senator called Publius Lentulus that knew Jesus (so, two thousands years ago), and wrote a book about this. But the book has many inconsistences, and the Senator NEVER existed (see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09154a.htm).

See, even a false guide tried to prove his existence.

b) I can't trust in your reports because there was no control.

I don't need control to find proof of plagiarism or to do historical research.

03 - I asked you to produce evidence and you failed to do so.

No, the post disappeared. In my blog you will find all proofs against Chico Xavier [plagiarism, inexistence of the guide and even false materializations]and Mirabelli. Unfortunely I can't put the links, myposts are continuously vanishing.

04 - Inference is NOT evidence of fraud.

It is if we cand find a lot of coincidences betwenn the behaviorof a false medium and someone who the people thinkthat is a real medium. And I have found many coincidences in Estelle Roberts and Chico Xavier.

05-Continually repeating yourself without producing any evidence of your claims is wasting my time and yours. I suggest you leave the subject and turn to something you might know something about.

I suggest you to stop with these ad-hominems, like if I am some kind of stupid, and stop misquoting me. Even Prescott showed a way that Estelle Roberts could have cheated.

6-Readers of this blog have enough information now to form their own opinions.

No, they don't, like I said, one of my post disapeared. I will ansewer your other cristicisms again:

a)What has the existence of a guide got to do with evidence of survival? If a guide lived on earth thousands of years ago is it necessary to prove that? (rhetorical question). It doesn't affect the medium's abilities.

Yes, even a guide that lived on earth thousands of years ago has to prove his existence. That's what Xavier's guide tried to do, he said it was a Roman Senator called Publius Lentulus that knew Jesus (so, two thousands years ago), and wrote a book about this. But the book has many inconsistences, and the Senator NEVER existed. See, even a false guide tried to prove his existence.

b) I can't trust in your reports because there was no control.

I don't need control to find proof of plagiarism or to do historical research.

c) Again you do not produce any evidence that Xavier was a fraud - it is simply your opinion and that is not scientifically acceptable.

Go to my blog and ask to someone translate it for you.

Vitor wrote: "Even Prescott showed a way that Estelle Roberts could have cheated."

Michael did no such thing. That remark perfectly illustrates my case.

There is no point in continuing this pointless debate.

As far as I am concerned people can form their own opinions based on what has been said.

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I'd better close down comments on this thread. The spammers are jumping on.

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