"Myers" on reincarnation

It seems that whenever the topic of reincarnation comes up on this blog, some rather intense conversations ensue. People clearly have strong feelings about reincarnation; some loathe the idea, while others are quite comfortable with it.

Of course, it doesn't help that mediums have conveyed decidedly mixed messages on the subject, with some saying everyone reincarnates dozens of times, others saying only certain people reincarnate, and still others insisting no one reincarnates!

If we take mediumship seriously, we have to wonder why there are such large discrepancies over such an important issue. One answer could be that reincarnation works differently for different people, and that it's more complicated than standard theories would suggest.

This is the approach taken by the communicator purporting to be F.W.H. Myers in Geraldine Cummins' book Beyond Human Personality (text online here). I've written about "Myers' " views on the etheric double in the two posts that immediately precede this one. What "Myers" says about reincarnation is also of interest. The excerpts below are taken from Chapter 4.

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I am quite clear that those human beings who live almost wholly in the physical sense while on earth, must be reborn in order that they may experience an intellectual and higher form of emotional life. In other words, those human beings I have described as "Animal-man" almost invariably reincarnate.

Some of the individuals I have designated by the term, "Soul-man," also choose to live again on earth. But metempsychosis does not involve a machine-like regularity of return. I have not noted any evidence of a continual progression of births and deaths for any one particular soul. I do not for a moment believe that the individual returns a hundred times or more to the earth. This is indeed, a wrong assumption. There may, of course, be certain exceptions which you are more likely to meet with among those primitive beings who seem incapable of aspiration -- of desire to rise above their physical nature. But the majority of people only reincarnate two, three or four times. Though if they have some human purpose or plan to achieve they may return as many as eight or nine times. No arbitrary figure can be named. We are only fairly safe in concluding that, in the human form, they are not doomed to wander over the space of fifty, a hundred and more lives.

They do not, it may be suggested, gather any proper share of experience from the few earth existences that are thus allotted to them. But provision has been made for the ignorance that is necessarily incurred through the whole span of lives covering but a fragment of typical experience.

Beggar, jester, king, poet, mother, soldier. I mention only six of the varied roles that would seem to provide lives entirely different in condition and in kind ...

However, it is well to be agreed that, even if we run the race of life on earth six times, we touch but on the fringe of human experience. We have obtained only a certain discipline. We have not plumbed the depths or scaled the heights of being; we have not covered all the space of human consciousness, of human feeling. Yet I can assure you that until we have harvested many times the fruits of lives spent on earth we shall not, save in exceptional cases, live on the higher planes beyond death.

It is not necessary for us to return to earth to gather into our granary this manifold variety of life and knowledge. We can reap, bind and bring much of it home by participating in the life of our group-soul. Many belong to it and these may spread themselves in their journeys over past, present and future ...

Through our communal existence I perceive and feel the drama in the earthly journey of a Buddhist priest, of an American merchant, of an Italian painter, and I am, if I assimilate the life thus lived, spared the living of it in the flesh.

You will recognize how greatly power of will, mind and perception can be increased through your entry into the larger self. You continue to preserve your identity and your fundamental individuality. But you develop immensely in character and in spiritual force. You gather the wisdom of the ages, not through the continual "Sturm und Drang" of hundreds of years passed in the confinement of the crude physical body, you gather it through love which has a gravitational pull and draws you within the memories of those who are akin to your soul, however alien their bodies may have been when they were on earth,

This existence within the memories of others is a form of experience scarcely understood by human beings. The soul resembles a spectator caught within the spell of some drama that is strange to its actual life. It does not therefore suffer or indeed thrill with the joy that direct physical experience would offer it of such a period in time. It perceives, however, all the consequences of acts, moods, thoughts in detail in this life of a kindred soul and so it may -- though feeling and emotion are now of a very different coinage and kind -- in this communal group-state, win the knowledge of all typical earth existences, of all the fundamental phases of being when the intelligence is bound to the flesh, the captive of the five senses and the brain with its myriad cells.

I do not write as one having authority. This little sketch of the soul's journey in relation to earth, is written out of my own experience and knowledge. It cannot, by any means, be said to be the last word on the subject. I am prepared to admit errors if I meet any souls of a wider experience than mine who can demonstrate effectively and beyond a doubt that the transcendental materialism of the early Theosophists is a sound and true doctrine, that the recurring cycle of births and deaths for one soul, goes on and on through many centuries, perhaps for a very long time ....

There is no set law concerning reincarnation. At a certain point in its progress, the soul reflects, weighs and considers the facts of its own nature in conjunction with its past life on earth. If you are primitive, this meditation is made more through instinct -- a kind of emotional thought -- that stirs up the depths of your being. Then the spirit helps you to choose your future. You have complete free will but your spirit indicates the path you should follow and you frequently obey that indication.

Bear in mind that the power behind each human being is imagination. It preserves the past in the form of memory, and unless temporarily fixed in a mould of its own making, is creating in the present, adding to itself, taking away from itself.

Recognize always the power for fresh creation that is inherent in each center of consciousness. In that power lies the hope of man's future, however low the level of his spiritual life.

The student of the journey of the soul will therefore perceive infinite variety if he considers the travels even of his comrades in the world after death -- the passing and re-passing over the frontiers, the existence in the physical and in the etheric state. For each soul differs from all other souls. No two are the same in character and nature. Their creative fancy will invariably produce variety, difference.

This being so, there can be no law which covers the whole field of conscious life in connection with the theory of reincarnation. The dogmatists, when faced with this problem, had better remain silent, folding their hands in reverence for the Divine Mystery which has, in its creation, ordained that those centers, the souls of living things, shall each in their varied ways find their road home to God, to that blissful, and ever creative life contained within the Cosmic Imagination.

A soul that, for the first time, enters a material body is, usually, related spiritually to some member of its Group and, so close is its relationship, it may take on the karma of the older soul. The latter has, perhaps, experienced four or five incarnations on earth. It is not yet wholly purified, has not gained all the terrestrial experience necessary to its spiritual evolution. It acquires it, however, in two ways: (1) through its entry into the group-memory, the conditions of which I have described: (2) through its psychic connection with a young soul which takes up the karma, takes on the pattern created by its previous earthly life or lives.

It will be recognized then, that it is bound psychically to this kinsman who is, indeed, in part its creation and so it is a witness of the earthly career of this traveller and its own spiritual life is enriched thereby. 

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In this post, Michael Tymn talks about the group-soul idea, including "Myers' " discussion of it in Cummins' earlier book The Road to Immortality. Referring to the mediumship of Maurice Barbanell, Tymn quotes the spirit entity Silver Birch as saying, "... there are what you call ‘group souls,' a single unity with facets which have spiritual relationships that incarnate at different times, at different places, for the purpose of equipping the larger soul for its work."

Tymn goes on:

Silver Birch also likened the soul to an iceberg in which one small portion is manifesting and the greater portion not manifesting.   He apparently was referring to what others have called the "Higher Self," the "Greater Self," or the "Oversoul" ...

However, he stressed that the individuality of the "facets" within the Group Soul is maintained.

Comments

[william]

“I do not write as one having authority. This little sketch of the soul's journey in relation to earth, is written out of my own experience and knowledge. It cannot, by any means, be said to be the last word on the subject. I am prepared to admit errors”

Maybe the statement “I am prepared to admit errors” is one of the first steps to wisdom. My own research tends to agree with what Myers is stating. Myers was a very serious researcher now we have him writing about his own experiences both on earth and after he crossed over.

As he stated his words cannot be the last word on the subject. From my point of view this is a humble statement from a serious researcher. It is when we think our words are thee only words of truth that we lose our sense of discovery.

I attended a Christina church with a friend today and the last statement the preacher made in his sermon was “Jesus is the only way”. Now he did not say the way to what but what are the odds of this person who is convinced that he knows truth will be able to discover anything outside of his existing beliefs.

One of the things I have learned in my life is the following axiom. “Be prepared to be wrong”. The ego loathes being wrong as its self-esteem is often way to fragile to consider being wrong.

When I worked as an consultant most CEO’s hired me to help change the employees, supervisors and mangers way of thinking not realizing that the person that needs to change the most is the CEO. Was it Socrates that made some statements about an introspective life?

“Spiritual healing is performed in addition to standard health care” speaking of Brazil here.

I smiled when I read this statement because in Brazil many (about 10%?) follow the spirits book by Kardec who by the way claimed the spirits that came through his medium/s taught reincarnation.

“He also works with earthbound spirit infestation of his clients, and sees mental illness as at least sometimes caused by attached spirits”

I agree with this statement as long as the word sometimes is well thought-out.

Duncan or whatever you name is. Personal attack after personal attack even against Myers? Why do you consider others opinions, beliefs, statements that disagree with your beliefs so threatening? If one could just admit that the thought of reincarnation if valid is not a pleasant thought that might be a good starting point for dealing with those that do not believe as we do.

The way the universe works is that a personal attack on another is a personal attack on self. Their shame is our shame, their struggle is our struggle, and their poverty is our poverty, etc. this is why I suspect the spirits on the other side work as guides and teachers. They have come to realize the oneness of all that is.

Now I have been accused on this blog of accusing everyone that does not agree with me as having paradigm paralysis. I am working on that one. Others can see things we cannot see in ourselves if we listen carefully and yes often painfully they can help us to see changes we might want to make in our lives.

Introspection is a painful process and not for the faint of heart.

[dmduncan]

So long as he or she is not confused for the Duncan that is DM, I'm good.

[Michael Prescott]

"Perhaps I am being naive but why would someone use different names on the same forum?"

I don't know. Perhaps a particular comment didn't get through, and the commenter assumed he (or she) had been banned. I have not, however, banned anyone.

Well, not recently, anyhow.

[Paul W]

Michael: you'd think if someone was thought they were banned they'd take the hint wouldn't you?

I won't go into how my remark about spirit-attachment was actually prefixed by "assuming spirits actually exist" before being quoted out of context my this Duncan geezer or whatever he/she is called, who then kindly tells me (wrongly) what I believe - most irritating, and it doesn't happen on here often which makes it all the more striking.

William: I agree with your comments about remaining open to doubt. I find it interesting that some seem so convinced they are right about reincarnation and survival (either pro or con) and attempt to prove their point whilst ignoring evidence from sources which don't support their view, or offering weak criticism of it, or descending to ad hominem attacks (esp against the dead or people they don't even know personally).

Perhaps it is fear or maybe they are simply exhibiting the same sort of dogmatic thinking that has been so successful for organised religions everywhere over the centuries (sic).

Why not accept that none of us here, saving one or two who have had direct personal experience (eg Zerdini) are in a position to do much more than theorise. Interesting though it is, it would be the height of arrogance to assume we have reached conclusive answers when we have seen nothing directly and are relying on third-party reports or our own thinking having dismissed these reports.

Reading the academic debate about whether mind and body can be separate I am asking myself what is the the point in such a heated discussion when millions of people report these experiences and more importantly some of the best phenomena have been witnessed by leading scientists and thinkers of their day. Would it not be better to consider these and offer some form of reasoned explanation for what has been repoted rather than deny they exist or resort to fraud or incompetence arguments?

Perhaps the mental jousting is reward in itself for those who participate.

The debate seems something of a waste of effort when there is so much observed evidence to be had though there seems a dearth of recent observations/research of significance.

[Art]

I've actually read in some books that there have been studies done (by Dr. Ken Ring, University of Connecticut) that people who learn and read about near death experiences reduce their fear of death. Near death experiencers completely lose their fear of death. They say they know that there is life after death and that it is wonderful. Most say the experience was "realer than real" and that they don't care what anyone says, they know.

Let's face it, mainstream Christianity and other religions don't paint a very compelling picture about death. At best it's some kind of boring heaven or burning forever in hell for minor infractions of some archaic code. Or in Buddhism and Hinduism your forced to repeat life over and over again till you get it right and then your soul merges with some kind of strange Nirvana (whatever the heck that means)?

It is generally assumed that most New Agey Spiritualist types believe in reincarnation. I don't. I think my view or ideas of Heaven are somewhat new and fresh. Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality, where time and space don't exist, and where the feelings of oneness, connectedness, and love are infinite and overwhelming. All the separation that we experience in this life doesn't exist and we get back everything in this life that we have loved and missed.

And like I've said before, no one has ever been able to explain away to me that mind boggling connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory, and there is also some connection to what some quantum physicist say about our universe. Quantum physics and the holographic universe theory are the frame that connects near death experiences, death bed visions, electronic voice phenomena, etc.

[realpc]

Art,

I have a feeling, which I can't prove, that death is at least as much of a challenge as being born or living. Why would dying and going wherever be such a lovely breeze? If it were so nice elsewhere, why would any of us have agreed to come here?

I had several weird experiences while half awake that suggested to me that dying could be a major ordeal. But that is just my own personal impression. However I think it agrees with what I know of some mystical traditions.

I think the new age movement has mislead us into thinking there is ultimately nothing to fear. It was a reaction against the scary ideas so many Christians grew up with. They wanted to throw out the idea of hell, and also devils, evil spirits, etc.

How then can you explain demonic possession, for one thing? In my opinion, possession has a role in most mental and physical illness. New age thinking can't help us understand why there are bad spirits. It denies evil and refuses to deal with the question.

I think evil and hate are as real as goodness and love. It's a question of perspective -- most of the universe doesn't care about us and wouldn't mind squashing us like a bug.

Then there is some aspect of the universe that loves us, and which makes up all that seems good and loving to us. All the rest is evil, for us, but good for someone else.

Just my little theory.

[Art]

If it were so nice elsewhere, why would any of us have agreed to come here? - realpc
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We come here to experience duality and separation, time and space, and imprint memories of what it is like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality, where time and space don't seem to exist and where the feelings of oneness and connectedness and love are infinite and overwhelming.

We experience separation in this life to teach the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness that are mentioned so often in NDE's.

[realpc]

So you are assuming everyone goes to what you define as heaven when they die?

[william]

“Perhaps the mental jousting is reward in itself for those who participate.”

I think there is much to this statement. I.e. drama; we humans appear to love our drama. Sharing my views is of interest to me maybe it is just drama maybe not. Reading others views helps me to put my views in perspective and I try hard very hard to challenge my personal views.

Also sometimes while typing on the keypad I write some things and then when I read what I have written it almost appears as if those remarks came from where I do not know. Maybe sub consciousness maybe the other side I know not.

Also these discussions often lead to someone mentioning or recommending a book. Right now I am reading Estelle Roberts book on fifty years a medium. It has common themes for being a medium in it. Her book is much like ena twiggs book. Their lives especially their childhoods were very similar.

“It is generally assumed that most New Agey Spiritualist types believe in reincarnation.”

This is a contradictory statement. Spiritualists tend not to believe in reincarnation I suspect many so call new agey types do. Now the people that follow Kardec’s book the spirits book tend to believe in reincarnation as the spirits in his book teach reincarnation as a reality.

From my point of view many of the new age folks are very much interested in using spiritually to maximize the human condition. I.e. wealth generation etc. some refer to this as spiritual ambition. I personally see some type of evolution of consciousness occurring in this physical life and life beyond this physical life. Some form of spiral advancement as we move closer and closer to the Infinite in awareness, divine intelligence, vitality, and love.

“attempt to prove their point whilst ignoring evidence from sources which don't support their view, or offering weak criticism of it, or descending to ad hominem attack”

As I have stated many times I suspect these attacks are based in doubt not certainty. Certainty has its home in a knowing beyond knowing and this condition is a rare phenomenon. I have had only one realization in my life and it does indeed give one a knowing beyond knowing. And it cannot be shared to the ego’s frustration. This is why I believe Jesus and a Buddha has had little success sharing their “realizations” or their knowing beyond knowing intelligence.

It appears to me that these discussions are based in the intellectual realm not the knowing beyond knowing realm of intelligence. I have no desire to debate what I had my realization on but I do with my research as it is in the intellectual realm.

My definition of enlightenment is a realization that one is eternal. Those are very profound realizations and there are days I would love to trade my realization on something I call understanding variation as it applies to the relative phenomenal world with the realization that I am eternal.

My success at teaching and sharing my realization on variation as it applies to leadership and success in making quality products was minimal. Of course *W Edwards Deming spent 50 years teaching American corporations the relationship of variation and competitive position also failed. The big three automakers are living proof of that.

Now what does having knowledge of variation have to do with spiritually? I.e. everything as all variation of thought has degrees of unawareness within it. Without variation of thought there is no phenomena. No phenomena no expression of infinite oneness. I.e. no us. Unawareness is at the very heart of the creation and manifestation of unique souls.

* Deming called his teachings profound knowledge. It has been rejected by most of America’s educational systems, corporations, Wall Street, and indeed much of the world. I.e. Toyota may be the exception.

[Art]

So you are assuming everyone goes to what you define as heaven when they die? - realpc
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Everyone becomes instantly enlightened when they enter the light. It's a holographic universe thing. In a holographic universe everything is infinitely connected to everything else, everything interpenetrates everything, and each piece contains the whole. That's why near death experiencers routinely say that they had "all knowledge," and during the Life Review experiencers say that they felt like they became the other person, felt their emotions, knew their thoughts, etc. The Life Review is a holographic experience par excellance.

"At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously." - http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

[realpc]

Yes there may be an enlightenment experience, but isn't there also a phase of being purged of the previous life, or some kind of arduous process the soul has to endure?

Every religious or mystical tradition I ever heard of, except modern New Age and Spiritualism, had negative aspects.

[Art]

The Life Review is a not "the judgement" but just another learning experience. You become the other person and learn what it felt like to be them. It's the ultimate "You reap what you sow." "Judge not that you be not judged, for in each measure that you judge, you shall be judged in return." Has a real holographic flavor to it doesn't it?

[Michael Prescott]

"Every religious or mystical tradition I ever heard of, except modern New Age and Spiritualism, had negative aspects."

There are negative aspects to Spiritualism. "Earthbound" spirits can remain trapped in a sort of netherworld between this life and the next. Evil spirits can endure hellish dimensions for some untold period of time (or timelessness). Even "good" spirits are said to face further challenges, either through reincarnation or through advancement to higher planes.

The "heavenly" dimension, as presented by Spiritualism, is a temporary resting place, not a final destination. It's a place in which the exhausted spirit gets some much-needed R & R, and learns some new lessons, before being subjected to the rigors of further growth.

A purportedly channeled book called "Testimony of Light," by Helen Greaves, presents these issues very well, I think.

Near-death experiences also include some negative cases called "hellish NDEs." The number of these cases is disputed, but it seems clear that some NDErs have a bad trip.

[william]

“Even "good" spirits are said to face further challenges, either through reincarnation or through advancement to higher planes.”

I wonder if life is not about the challenges. What would life be like without the discoveries, the creative process, and the shared love and compassion? If we just had pure awareness what would we be aware of?

The Buddhist nothingness or emptiness is not that attractive to most people. It appears to me that expression relies on the process of discoveries, creation, and shared love and compassion. And all of these attributes of life as we know it depends on phenomena and those phenomena depend on a relative world or worlds.

Even sitting on a cloud listening or playing a harp requires a relative phenomenal experience.

“The number of these cases is disputed, but it seems clear that some NDErs have a bad trip.”

It appears that most if not all of these bad trips are self-inflicted. I.e. if we think we deserve hell we get what we think we deserve. Now how about a person that demonstrated little love or compassion in this life; they might not see a need to self inflict a hellish condition but they may just go to a place that has others around them just like them. I.e. as like attracts like; it would be an unloving and lonely place.

I have also read that there are advanced spirits that are willing to help those in a hellish place to assist them to move to a higher level of existence if they are willing to change their outlook about themselves and others.

“The "heavenly" dimension, as presented by Spiritualism, is a temporary resting place, not a final destination. It's a place in which the exhausted spirit gets some much-needed R & R, and learns some new lessons, before being subjected to the rigors of further growth.”

This is why I suspect a soul might look at another life on earth different than we do now as we have or are now struggling and often suffering the hardships of life. To an eternal soul one life on earth may be just looked as a temporal thing especially after a long R & R. We send soldiers on R & R to help them better cope with the rigors of war and military life.

The suffering we remember in a past life may be just memories and we tend to forget much of our past suffering. Also maybe a soul on the other side can see better the lessons learned from the struggles of life.

I have read in many areas of my research that a mature soul wants to advance, as they are able to see or be told and maybe even experience for a short period of time that soul growth can lead to a more blissful world or dimension. I.e. like attracts like. The higher the vibration level the higher the dimension we reside in.

The process of life is the expression of the Infinite. We are living proof of that expression.

[Sojourner]

I'm not sure how reincarnation works, but stories like the one in this link:

http://www.fox8.com/wjw-reincarnation-txt%2C0%2C1190900.story

definitely help convince me of its reality.