Here's a post from 2005 that I've decided to republish. It concerns Dannion Brinkley, who reportedly survived three near-death experiences, the first of which granted him a series of prophecies of world events.
Despite the claims of Brinkley's supporters, these prophecies have not proven very accurate, as the post illustrates.
In the nearly three years that have passed since I wrote this item, there have been a few developments on the world scene that might be interpreted as fulfillments of some of the prophecies. For instance, Brinkley predicted the rise of socialism in Latin America; the high-profile position of Venezuela's Hugo Chavez may give some support to this idea. Brinkley also foresaw rapidly rising gasoline prices and a banking crisis.
On the other hand, he predicted that these things (and much more) would happen by the year 2000. And the apocalyptic consequences he foretold have not come to pass.
Of course, it's always possible for true believers to rationalize a failed prediction. I was once told by a New Ager that every single one of Edgar Cayce's predictions had come true. I pointed out that Cayce predicted Atlantis would rise from the ocean before the end of the 20th century - an event that obviously didn't happen. The other person immediately replied, "Well, maybe it did happen - in a parallel universe!"
You can't argue with that.
The original post follows.
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Thousands of people have reported near-death experiences - the experience of floating free of their body during clinical death. There are so many reports from all over the world, some of them well documented, that serious researchers no longer doubt that NDEs occur. While some still argue that NDEs can be explained away as hallucinations, there is no materialist explanation that covers all the diverse phenomena reported. It seems increasingly likely that NDEs do indeed offer a glimpse of what happens after we die. In fact, anyone who has ever wondered what it feels like to die would be well advised to study the NDE literature - especially the work of respected researchers like Michael Sabom and Kenneth Ring.
That doesn't mean, however, that all the claims made by NDE survivors are equally credible. Sometimes the people who get the most publicity are the ones whose testimony is the least verifiable. A possible case in point is Dannion Brinkley, who has undergone a total of three NDEs. One of Brinkley's most publicized claims is that during his first NDE, in 1975, he was given detailed visions of the future. These visions were presented in his bestselling book Saved by the Light, which was published in 1994.
The first thing to note is that 1994 is a long time after 1975. Unless there is independent verification of Brinkley's claim that he predicted these events as early as 1975, we are justified in being a bit skeptical. After all, anyone can claim to have predicted something after the fact.
Even so, let's assume that Brinkley did indeed see these visions back in 1975. How accurate are they?
There were thirteen major visions, summarized here. (All quotes come from this summary, which appears to be taken directly from Brinkley's book.) We'll take them in order.
Visions One through Three "showed the mood of America in the aftermath of the war in Southeast Asia. [It] revealed scenes of spiritual loss in our country that were byproducts of that war, which weakened the structure of America & eventually the world."
But in 1975, America was already demoralized by Vietnam (and Watergate). So this vision hardly counts as a prediction of the future.
I could see America falling into enormous debt. This came to me as scenes of money going out of a room much faster than it was coming in. Through some kind of telepathy, I was aware that this money represented the increase in the national debt & that it spelled danger down the road. I also saw people waiting in long lines for the basics of life like clothing & food.
So far the national debt has not caused an economic collapse. Quite the contrary - America is the most prosperous country in the world (and our national debt is not that large as a percentage of our assets).
[I saw] people rioting & looting because they wanted more material goods than they had, kids shooting other kids with high-powered rifles, criminals stealing cars, young men firing on other young men from the windows of cars.
There were riots throughout the mid to late 1960s, so a prediction of further riots was not much of a stretch. The crime rate was already escalating markedly by the '70s - again, not much of a prediction.
I found myself facing the seal of the president of the U.S. I don't know where I was, but I saw the initials "R.R." emblazoned beneath this seal. Then I was standing in the midst of newspapers, looking at their editorial cartoons. One after the other, I saw cartoons of a cowboy. He was riding the range or shooting down bad guys in saloons ... The dates on the newspapers ranged from 1983 to 1987, & it was clear from the nature of the drawings that they were about the president of the U.S., who projected the image of being a cowboy to the rest of the world. I could also tell that the man in these cartoons was an actor, because they all had a theatrical look to them.
Of course, this could be a successful prediction of Ronald Reagan's presidency (although Brinkley says that when he was later asked to guess who "R.R." was, he thought it would be Robert Redford). If in fact Brinkley experienced this vision in 1975, then he got this one right.
Visions Four and Five were "scenes from the Middle East, showing how this area of eternal strife would reach a boiling point. Religion would play a large role in these problems, as would the economy."
Strife in the Middles East was nothing new in 1975, and religion and the economy were always involved. Brinkley gets no points for this prediction.
I heard a Being speak telepathically to me & say that the country of Jordan would exist no more. I did not hear the name of the new country.
[Israel created] a police force composed of Israelis & Arabs. This was a very harsh police force, cruel & unyielding. I saw them wearing blue-&-silver uniforms & having a tight grip on the people of this region. So tight was their grip, in fact, that world leaders became highly critical of Israel....
I could see Israel becoming isolated from the rest of the world. As things worsened, there were images of Israel preparing for war against other countries, including Russia, & a Chinese-&-Arab consortium. Jerusalem was somehow at the eye of this conflict ... These visions revealed Israel as being spiritually hollow. I had the sense of it being a country of strong government but weak morals. Image after image came of Israelis reacting with hatred toward Palestinians & other Arabs, & I was steeped in the sense that these people as a nation had forgotten God & were now driven by racial hatred.
Frankly, this sounds rather anti-Semitic to me, an example of the tendency to blame Israel for aggressive moves made against it by neighboring countries. In any event, Jordan has not changed its name or ceased to exist, Israel has not created a police force comprised of Israelis and Arabs, and so far there has been no war between Israel and a Russian-Chinese-Arab coalition. No points for this one.
[I saw] oil being used as a weapon to control the international economy. I saw images of Mecca & then of the Saudi people. While these images streamed before me, a telepathic voice said that oil production was being cut off to destroy America's economy & to milk money from the world economy. The price of oil was going up & up, said the voice, & Saudi Arabia was making an alliance with Syria & China....
I wondered where this alliance began, & I was able to see a close-up of Syrians & Chinese signing papers & shaking hands in a building that I knew was in Syria. The date that came to me was 1992. Another date came to me - 1993 - & with it came images of Syrian & Chinese scientists working in laboratories to develop a missile that could deliver chemical & biological weapons. Nuclear weapons were becoming things of the past, & these countries wanted to develop new weapons of destruction.
The last part is reasonably accurate. Chemical and biological weapons have become a focus of concern in the Middle East. But as far as I know, there was no Syrian-Chinese alliance in 1992, and Saudi Arabia certainly has not cut off sales of oil to the U.S.
In Vision Six,
[I] found myself in a cool, forested area beside a river. Next to the river was a massive cement structure, square & foreboding. I was fearful & didn't know why. Suddenly the earth shook & the top of this cement structure exploded. I knew it was a nuclear explosion & could sense hundreds of people dying around me as it took place. The year 1986 was given to me through telepathy, as was the word "wormwood." It wasn't until a decade later, when the Chernobyl nuclear plant exploded near Kiev in the Soviet Union, that I was able to associate these pictures with an event. It was then that I made another connection between the vision in this box & the nuclear disaster in the USSR. The word Chernobyl means "wormwood" in Russian.
If actually perceived in 1975, this was a successful prophecy. But the next part isn't:
[I saw a] second nuclear accident ... in a northern sea so badly polluted that no ships would travel there. The water was a pale red & was covered with dead or dying fish. Around the water were peaks & valleys that made me think I was seeing a fjord like those in Norway. I couldn't tell where this was, but I knew that the world was frightened at what had happened, because radiation from this accident could spread everywhere & affect all of humankind. The date on the picture was 1995.... The poisons released by these accidents were carried to the rest of the world through water, which was tainted forever by this nuclear waste....
Luckily, this didn't happen in 1995 or at any other time, at least so far.
As the images of this fear unfolded, I somehow understood that environmentalism would emerge as the world's new religion. People would consider a clean environment a key to salvation more than they ever had before. Political parties would spring up around the issue of a cleaner planet, & political fortunes would be made or broken based upon feelings about the environment.
This is partly true. The environmentalist Green Party has made large strides in Europe, though not in the United Sates. But the ecology movement was well underway by 1975.
From Chernobyl & this second accident, I could see that the Soviet Union would wither & die, with the Soviet people losing faith in their government & the government losing its grip on the people.
Well, the Soviet Union did die, but not as a result of Chernobyl, much less the "second accident," which never took place.
The economy played a strong role in these visions. I saw people carrying bags of money into stores & coming out with small bags of goods. People with military uniforms wandered the streets in Soviet cities begging for food, some obviously starving to death. People ate rotted potatoes & apples, & crowds rioted to get at trucks filled with food.
This is true of the last days of the USSR.
The word "Georgia" appeared in a Cyrillic script, & I could see a mafia developing in Moscow that I assume came from the state of Georgia in the Soviet Union. This mafia was a growing power that was in competition with the Soviet government. In scene after scene, I saw mafia members operating freely in a city that I think was Moscow. I felt no joy as I watched the Soviet Union collapse. Although Soviet-style communism was dying right before my eyes, the Being of Light was saying that this was a cautious moment instead of a glorious one.
The Russian Mafia has indeed played a major role in the post-Soviet era. These predictions, if actually made in 1975, are impressive. On the other hand, we have to remember that Brinkley's book was published in 1994 - five years after the fall of Soviet Communism.
In Vision Seven,
I saw [a man] from Russia as he talked with zeal about our need to heal the environment. People rallied around him quickly, & he soon became so powerful that he was elected one of the leaders of the United Nations. I saw this Russian riding on a white horse, & I knew that his rise would come before the year 2000.
No such figure has arisen.
In Visions Eight and Nine,
I saw border disputes & heavy fighting between Soviet & Chinese armies. Finally, the Chinese amassed their armies at the border & pushed into the region. The main battle was over a railroad, which the Chinese took in heavy fighting. They then pushed deep into the Soviet Union, cutting the country in half & taking over the oil fields of Siberia.
Certainly this hasn't happened yet.
After this, the visions become more apocalyptic and more bizarre.
[Visions Ten and Eleven] came in rapid succession. They revealed scenes of the economic collapse of the world. In general terms, these visions showed a world in horrible turmoil by the turn of the century, one that resulted in a new world order that was truly one of feudalism & strife. In one of the visions, people lined up to take money out of banks. In another, the banks were being closed by the government. The voice that accompanied the visions told me that this would take place in the 90's & would be the beginning of an economic strife that would lead to the bankruptcy of America by the year 2000.
Nope.
[I saw] dollar signs flying by as people pumped gas & looked distressed. I knew this meant that oil prices were accelerating out of control.
Not really. Yes, gas prices have fluctuated and caused occasional distress, but, adjusted for inflation, gasoline is actually cheaper now than it was in the 1970s. This was true even when it briefly hit $3.20 per gallon.
I saw 13 new nations entering the world mark[et] in the late 90's. These were nations with manufacturing capabilities that put them on a competitive footing with the U.S. One by one our European markets began to give their business to these countries, which slowed our economy even more. all of this led to a greatly weakened economy.
Nope.
But the end of America as a world power came as visions of two horrendous earthquakes in which buildings were swaying & toppling over like a child's wooden blocks. I knew that these quakes happened sometime before the end of the century ... The cost of rebuilding these destroyed cities would be the final straw for our government, now financially broken that it would hardly be able to keep itself alive. The voice in the vision told me that it would be this way while the images from the box showed Americans starving & lined up for food.
Observe that this was supposed to happen "before the end of the century" - i.e., by the year 2000. It didn't.
[Next] came images of warfare in the desert, a massive show of military might. I saw armies racing toward one another in the desert, with great clouds of dust billowing from the treads of tanks as they crossed the barren ground. There was cannon fire & explosions that looked like lightning. The earth shook & then there was silence. Like a bird, I flew over acres of destroyed army equipment.... The date 1990 came into my head. That was the year of Desert Storm, the military operation that squashed the army of Iraq for occupying Kuwait.
Okay, we'll give him this one - although desert combat is not unusual in any era.
[Vision Eleven] began with Iran & Iraq in possession of nuclear & chemical weapons. Included in this arsenal was a submarine loaded with nuclear missiles. The year, said a voice in the vision, was 1993.
Fortunately neither Iraq nor Iran had nukes in 1993.
Chemical warfare played a role in a horrible vision of terrorism that takes place in France before 2000. It begins when the French publish a book that infuriates the Arab world. I don't know the title of this book, but the result of its publication is a chemical attack by Arabs on a city in France. A chemical is put into the water supply, & thousands drink it & die before it can be eliminated. In one brief vision, I saw Egyptians rioting in the streets while a voice told me that by 1997, Egypt would collapse as a democracy & be taken over by religious fanatics.
Nothing like this happened. There was no poisoning of the French water supply, and Egypt has the same government (not quite a "democracy") that it's had for years.
[I saw] visions ... like many images we now see of Sarajevo: modern cities crumbling beneath the weight of warfare, their inhabitants fighting one another for reasons ranging from racism to religious conflict. I saw many towns worldwide where desperate citizens were eating their own dead.
This is too vague to count for much. There are always "wars and rumors of wars," and you can never go wrong predicting them, as long as you stick to generalities.
Vision Twelve, the most outlandish of all,
addressed an important event in the ... decade of the 90's.... I watched as a biological engineer from the Middle East found a way to alter DNA & create a biological virus that would be used in the manufacture of computer chips. This discovery allowed for huge strides in science & technology. Japan, China, & other countries of the Pacific Rim experienced boom times as a result of this discovery & became powers of incredible magnitude. Computer chips produced from this process found their way into virtually every form of technology, from cars & airplanes to vacuum cleaners & blenders.
Well, we have certainly seen a computer revolution, with computer chips becoming ubiquitous, but so far no one has engineered a biological virus that will manufacture these chips.
Before the turn of the century, this man [the bio-engineer] was among the richest in the world, so rich that he had a stranglehold on the world economy.
Nope. You might say, What about Bill Gates? But Gates is not from the Middle East, is not a biological engineer, is not (quite) the richest man in the world, and does not have a stranglehold on the world economy.
Still the world welcomed him, since the computer chips he had designed somehow put the world on an even keel. Gradually, he succumbed to his own power. He began to think of himself as a deity & insisted on greater control of the world. With that extra control, he began to rule the world.
Starting to sound like very bad science fiction now, don't you think?
His method of rule was unique. Everyone in the world was mandated by law to have one of his computer chips inserted underneath his or her skin. This chip contained all of an individual's personal information. If a government agency wanted to know something, all it had to do was scan your chip with a special device....
There was an even more sinister side to this chip. A person's lifetime could be limited by programming this chip to dissolve & kill him with the viral substance it was made from. Lifetimes were controlled like this to avoid the cost that growing old places on the government. It was also used as a means of eliminating people with chronic illnesses that put a drain on the medical system. People who refused to have chips implanted in their bodies roamed as outcasts. They could not be employed & were denied government services.
Obviously nothing remotely like this has taken place. It sounds a little like the movie Logan's Run, which came out in 1976.
Vision Thirteen, the final vision, seems to fudge a bit on the earlier prophecies:
Through telepathy, I could hear a Being say, "If you follow what you have been taught & keep living the same way you have lived the last 30 years, all of this will surely be upon you. If you change, you can avoid the coming war."
So if the visions don't come to pass, it's not because the prophecies were wrong; it's because we altered our course. But then how can any visions ever be wrong?
Scenes from World War III came to life before me. I ... saw a world filled with fighting & chaos. Somehow it was clear that this final war, an Armageddon if you will, was caused by fear....
I also saw scenes that were not of war, including many visions of natural disasters. In parts of the world that had once been fertile with wheat & corn, I saw parched desert & furrowed fields that farmers had given up on. In other parts of the world, torrential rainstorms had gouged out the earth eating away topsoil & creating rivers of thick, dark mud.
People were starving in this vision. They were begging for food on the streets.... I saw civil wars breaking out in Central & South America & the rise of socialist governments in all of these countries before the year 2000.
Actually, socialism has been on the decline in Latin America since the 1980s.
As these wars intensified, millions of refugees streamed across the U.S. border, looking for a new life in North America. Nothing we did could stop these immigrants. They were driven by fear of death & loss of confidence in God.
I saw millions of people streaming north out of El Salvador & Nicaragua, & more millions crossing the Rio Grande into Texas. There were so many of them that we had to line the border with troops & force them back across the river. The Mexican economy was broken by these refugees & collapsed under the strain.
Certainly there are a lot of Latin American immigrants crossing our border, but not because of a regional collapse or mass starvation or World War III. Maybe he gets partial credit for this one.
On balance, with a few exceptions, these visions are not very impressive. Many of them are dead wrong. Some, like the flesh-dissolving computer chips installed under our skin, are just silly. For the most part the predictions are standard apocalyptic talk - wars, pestilence, famine, natural disasters, fear, despair, the fall of governments, the rise of chaos. People have been making such predictions for thousands of years, but the human race manages to muddle through. If anything, the world has become a safer, freer, and better place since 1975.
So how do we evaluate what Dannion Brinkley says he saw? That's hard to say. On the one hand, he seems to be quite sincere about his NDEs. He has been active in the hospice movement and has logged thousands of hours as a hospice volunteer. People who've met him report that he has a serenity and cheerfulness that they find uplifting. And he has managed to survive three near-death episodes.
On the other hand, what the Beings of Light supposedly showed him does not seem to reveal an omniscient intelligence at work.
Here's one possible solution. There is a tradition - at least as old as the Tibetan Book of the Dead - that what we encounter in the afterlife depends largely on what we expect to find. Our own conscious or unconscious expectations, fears, and hopes are objectified in our experience. If we expect to see demons and hellfire, we will. If we expect to see angels and pearly gates, we will.
In this respect, it is worth mentioning the book 90 Minutes in Heaven, an account of an NDE by a fundamentalist Christian, Don Piper, who did indeed encounter winged angels singing hymns, "pearlescent" gates, and a crowd of eager Christians ready to lead him to streets of gold. Meanwhile, deathbed visions from India, reported in this study, often involve images of Hindu deities.
In other words, people see what they are conditioned to see. My guess is that Dannion Brinkley had unconscious expectations of fuel shortages, economic collapse, and World War III. Such fears were very much in the air in the 1970s. He brought these expectations with him on his NDE, and when he tried to look into the future, he saw only what he expected to see.
Who, then, were the Beings of Light who showed him the visions? Perhaps they were aspects of his own consciousness, which he misinterpreted as higher spiritual authorities. Perhaps they were objectifications of his own secret fears.
At any rate, when people claim (as they sometimes still do) that Brinkley's prophecies were uncannily accurate, it's worth remembering that they really weren't. It's all well and good to be "saved by the light" - but let's not be blinded by it!
I don't see how a date stamp could be attributed to anything in the afterlife. From the myriad of NDE's that I've read the vast majority of near death experiencers relate that time didn't seem to exist on the other side.
"Time could also be contracted, I found. Centuries would condense into seconds. Millenniums would shrink into moments. The entire civilization that I was part of passed by in the blink of an eye." from John Star's near-death experience
"I was told that before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (from Jeanie Dicus' near-death experience, 1974)
"Space and time are illusions that hold us to our physical realm; out there all is present simultaneously." (from Beverly Brodsky's near-death experience, 1970)
"During this experience, time had no meaning. Time was an irrelevant notion. It felt like eternity. I felt like I was there an eternity." (from Grace Bubulka's near-death experience, 1988?)
"I didn't know if I had been in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (from Jayne Smith's near-death experience, 1965?)
"Earthly time had no meaning for me anymore. There was no concept of "before" or "after." Everything - past, present, future - existed simultaneously." from Kimberly Sharp's near-death experience
http://near-death.com/experiences/articles004.html
Posted by: Art | October 21, 2008 at 01:45 PM
“He brought these expectations with him on his NDE, and when he tried to look into the future, he saw only what he expected to see.”
I think this comment of yours sums it up well, Michael.
In the afterlife, or in astral conditions, where mind has free play with ether-stuff, an individual creates his own reality. Bruce Moen shows this clearly. On the earth plane, we are bound by consensus conditions. ‘Consensus’ is a mix of other people’s expectations (culture) and physical stuff ruled by physical laws which lack responsiveness to our five-sense, brain-filtered consciousness (aka “objective reality”). It’s a tough deal.
Incidentally, did you know that David Wilcock on the Divine Cosmos website claims to be the reincarnation of Edgar Cayce?
http://divinecosmos.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12
Now there’s a man who tries very hard to create his own version of reality…
Posted by: Teri | October 21, 2008 at 02:53 PM
It's unfortunate he published his book when he did, because that way, like you've pointed out, we don't know if this actually happened or if he was tailoring predictions after the fact. Still, if we assume he did have all these visions in '75, then he did get quite a few direct hits, which is more than can be said for some other modern 'prophecies'.
The twelfth prediction about the dissolving computer chips and being ruled by a Middle Eastern biological engineer, though, remind me heavily of Biblical 'prophecies' in the Book of Revelations, with the world being ruled by the Anti-Christ (in this case, the 'biological engineer from the Middle East') and bearing the 'mark of the beast' (the 'biological virus that would be used in the manufacture of computer chips') on their body. All in all, this vision seems to me to be lifted from the Bible and updated for a modern-day audience.
Like you suggested, perhaps Brinkley is a Christian who unconsciously projected his apocalyptic thoughts into his NDE? I think it would fit with most of his other doom-and-gloom predictions.
Posted by: Pat | October 21, 2008 at 03:35 PM
I would like to highlight a couple of points.
Many comments, that lead to conclusions, do not allow for facts unknown to the author. Many comments do not allow for the varied interpretations possible for a prophecy.
Some examples - best one is Cayce. Atlantis rising. I believe that technically it has. Structures have risen in the sea and been identified as such that must have been made by some civilisation or other - that no one knows yet that it is the lost city/land of Atlantis allows for the accuracy of the prophecy to be confirmed at some stage still.
Some of the comments of Brinkley (and I have my suspicions about him - like charging 250 for a telephone reading or some such - taking financial advantage of some maybe) are still potentially true in the sense that political info and secret intelligence might not be available to confirm such prophecy - doesn't mean he got it wrong, just that we can't confirm stuff.
Anyway FWIW, I like to keep an open mind and although the author did not assassinate and seemed to make a genuine effort to assess accuracy, albeit technically shakey in my opinion, I still found substance in his article.
Neil Jackson
Posted by: Neil Jackson | October 22, 2008 at 04:23 AM
I would just like to add that when I read Dannion B's book saved by the light, I got a deep sense of truth about the lessons he learned about love for one another, etc, written, in a way, as wisdom, as given by the spiritual beings he 'met', deeply moving for me.
Posted by: Neil Jackson | October 22, 2008 at 04:41 AM
I prophesy that no apocalyptic prophecy will ever come to pass.
Does that make me a prophet?
Posted by: Pete | October 22, 2008 at 07:25 AM
"I prophesy that no apocalyptic prophecy will ever come to pass." - Pete
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The problem arises when they put a date or time on these prophecies. Near death experiencers see centuries condensed into seconds and the whole of the history of the Universe condensed into one milisecond. Everything they see is "true" but there is no way to attribute any exact date to it. In a hologram everything happens at once. Heaven has a "holographic" nature, "at its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously." Everything happening at once. There will be super volcanic eruptions, asteroids hitting the Earth, plate techtonics, etc. but it happens on a scale of millenium - but there is no way in Heaven to percieve the exact time because on the other side time doesn't exist like it does here. What they experienced was real enough, but there is no way to know exact dates.
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html#zine
Posted by: Art | October 22, 2008 at 08:59 AM
This is the first time I've visited your blog and your article is a good one, it's open minded and yet skeptical too. Both good things IMHO.
For what it is worth, somewhat like Brinkley, in 2005 I too had a spiritual experience that revealed to me that these were the "end times'. I haven't told too many people even though (believe it or not) I was told to 'tell others'.
My own experience is just too difficult for others to believe, and the few I have told dismiss it out of hat.
The thing I'd like to say is that I suddenly 'knew' a few things from the experience besides that these were the 'end times', namely that all religions offered truth; and from my subsequent study of all religions I've learned that not only is that true, but virtually all are teaching the same message, namely that we live in a "world of opposites", of light and dark, good and evil and it is our knowledge of these opposites (duality) that continues to keep us in a world of delusion and misunderstanding.
Another thing I knew was coming was a worldwide economic collapse, but, I didn't know a timeframe. I was convinced that it would take place 6 months after my epiphany, but so far it has yet to take place - though clearly it's underway now.
Even though Brinkley was given specific time frames, I feel that during these types of spiritual 'rapture', time and space are no longer relevant. He himself very likely placed dates on the events he received rather than being 'told' the date. Why do I think this? Because of my own experience, information received isn't in the form of words, but rather feelings that are in many ways more accurate than words, but at the same time, difficult for the rational, logical mind to grasp. And when the logical mind attempts to make sense of it, it starts to reduce the experience and ultimately distort it to a degree.
From reading his prophecies, I am convinced that his experience was likely genuine, but we mere humans can easily pollute the experience with our own beliefs and prejudices. Personally, I have striven hard not to do that, but it's something that is difficult to completely avoid.
Anyway, I don't expect anyone to take me seriously, but I can say that these really are the end times, just as the Bible, the Hindu Puranas and the Hopi Indians are saying (along with many other indigenous tribes). Just look around you - the ice caps are melting, economic collapse is looming. But the key thing to remember is that this is truly a spiritual event and a time to "seek' for answers rather than merely believing.
Posted by: Thomas | October 22, 2008 at 12:11 PM
What if some people under certain circumstances are allowed to have those visions we call prophesies, which perhaps are just quantum potentials of probable future, meant as a warning so that we can evolve spiritually. Humans have free will after all, don’t’ they?
Posted by: Ulysses | October 22, 2008 at 02:59 PM
Concerning Ulysses comment, for what it is worth, personally I question the role of free will, but perhaps it's true. But does someone with an IQ of 50 truly have total free will? What about a person with multiple personalities, or some other serious mental illness. Or a person under great duress. Since most decisions are rarely made without the cloud of some misperception, I am not so sure we have free will as much as we are simply part of the whole cosmic drama, a sort of cog in the cosmic machine.
Also I think the ultimate outcome might be mutable, but a big part of me doesn't think it is.
From my own experience, I have learned that we have continuous cycles of birth and death, and this includes the Earth as well. All births are a "golden age" of innocence and a lack of 'knowledge' and understanding (which is actually a positive thing). However, due to the laws of yin and yang, this age of innocence always degrades to a time of change, an end time, and ultimately a death. And then repeats itself all over.
However, according to the Hindu puranas (as well as the Bible), we do reach complete emancipation from duality. The puranas say every 58,000 years (essentially two precessional cycles) we come to a final ending, and we are at that stage right now.
These are the final stages of the kali yuga (aka 'iron age'), and as far as I know, it is on schedule and cannot be altered.
All that said, I think in some ways anything we can imagine may be possible, so all things considered, it might be best to not assume anything or get too locked into a specific mindset or belief.
Posted by: Thomas | October 22, 2008 at 03:30 PM
Concerning Ulysses comment, for what it is worth, personally I question the role of free will, but perhaps it's true. But does someone with an IQ of 50 truly have total free will? - Thomas
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Compared to the Creator of the Universe we all have an I.Q. of 50. I am extremely suspicious of "free will" and think it might just be an illusion created by our brains.
Is this REALLY proof that man can see into the future?
"Do some of us avoid tragedy by foreseeing it? Some scientists nowbelieve that the brain really CAN predict events before they happen."
http://tinyurl.com/26h8tu
Posted by: Art | October 22, 2008 at 06:19 PM
"I can say that these really are the end times...But the key thing to remember is that this is truly a spiritual event"
Very interesting comments, Thomas. I am inclined to agree with you. But it does kind of imply that a series of catastrophes would need to happen first to remove the old world order, doesn't it?
Posted by: Teri | October 23, 2008 at 03:53 AM
True. The world, according to the Hopi, the Bible, Shaivism and Hinduism all teach that the world has been destroyed time and time again. Even in Genesis Adam and Eve were told to *replenish* the Earth. Consider the word 'replenish' carefully.
As far as I can see we are about to experience many upheavals, including massive Earth changes. Every event, whether it be war, monetary collapse or Earth changes are a spiritual event (for lack of a better word). Everything is spiritual, in reality, it might be true to say that we are not even physical beings, we only think we are.
But according to the Hopi, no one gets out alive (my epiphany neither confirmed nor denied this). And though this point doesn't fill me with any joy, this is not a time to be filled with fear or despair either. Here's some things I can say with certainty:
1. This time means our true spiritual liberation. The Hopi say that this is actually a time to celebrate. Read their messages, they can be found all over the 'net.
2. This is a time for seeking, not believing. I regard the coming changes as a very loud and disturbing alarm clock designed to awaken us from a very deep sleep.
If one earnestly seeks to understand the 'meaning of existence', why we exist and those type of questions, one may escape (or as Christians call it, 'raptured'). I don't expect a mass rapture all at once, I do expect that some may just vibrate into a higher dimension.
Here are two of my favorite quotes that inspire me every day:
"If a student is too serious, the benevolent deities will make perfectly adequate teachers, but if the student is too frivolous, only the wrathful deities will be able to do the job."
—Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
"There are only two ways to conquer destiny or be independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny and discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self and that the ego is non-existent.
"The other way is to kill the ego by completely surrendering to the Lord, by realizing one's helplessness and saying all the time, 'Not I, but Thou, oh Lord' and giving up all sense of 'I' and ‘mine’, and leaving it to the Lord to do what he likes with you. Complete effacement of the ego is necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement through Self-enquiry or bhakti marga (path)."
—Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi
Posted by: Thomas | October 23, 2008 at 09:42 AM
However, according to the Hindu puranas (as well as the Bible), we do reach complete emancipation from duality. The puranas say every 58,000 years (essentially two precessional cycles) we come to a final ending, and we are at that stage right now.
These are the final stages of the kali yuga (aka 'iron age'), and as far as I know, it is on schedule and cannot be altered.
This is a different calculation of Yuga cycles than I have seen before, Thomas. It’s my understanding that the http://www.salagram.net/cycleOages.html>generally accepted time frame for a complete Yuga cycle is 4.32 million years, while the Kali Yuga interval lasts for 432,000 years. A Day of Brahma consists of 1000 complete Yuga cycles (4.32 billion years), which is followed by a Night of Brahma of the same duration, before another Day of Brahma emerges anew.
However, these numbers were challenged by Yogananda’s guru Sri Yukteswar in his 1895 publication, The Holy Science. It was Yukteswar who claimed that the generally accepted time frames were inaccurate and that a complete Yuga cycle coincided with a complete cycle of the precession of the equinox, which he calculated as 24,000 years in duration. (Current astronomical observations indicate the precession takes a touch over 26,000 years, although the rate is increasing). Yukteswar also wrote that the precession was caused by our sun orbiting with a companion star, and that the orientation of our solar system in the galaxy is what influences the average human state of mind in the various ages. Walter Cruttenden explores these ideas in his book, The Lost Star of Myth and Time, and film The Great Year. An overview is available at Cruttenden’s http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/>Binary Research Institute website.
Yukteswar’s calculations are much more hopeful, in that it suggests that we are in the process of emerging from the depths of the most recent Kali Yuga.
Anyway, I don't expect anyone to take me seriously, but I can say that these really are the end times, just as the Bible, the Hindu Puranas and the Hopi Indians are saying (along with many other indigenous tribes). Just look around you - the ice caps are melting, economic collapse is looming. But the key thing to remember is that this is truly a spiritual event and a time to "seek' for answers rather than merely believing.
It has always seemed to me that apocalyptic prophecy is counterproductive, in that it generally leads to fear and other egocentric emotions that ultimately point people away from that which they need to realize for themselves. And what they need to realize for themselves is that everything is truly a spiritual event, that there isn’t anything else and there never has been. From the highest perspective that I’ve personally experienced, it’s understood that there is One Thing, happening in One Moment, arising from no-place. In other words, the “End Times”, the “Beginning” and “The In-Between” are all happening Now. All claims to the contrary are individual interpretations of truth, and nothing more.
Everything is spiritual, in reality, it might be true to say that we are not even physical beings, we only think we are.
Our consciousness converts our thoughts to reality at every moment. Whenever we accept any given thought as truth, we’ve misled ourselves again.
Thomas’ earlier comment about seeking rather than believing is important, though the term “seek” carries an implication that it’s about discovering “something else” that is “somewhere else”. Anyone who has really discovered it realizes that they’ve found something that they’ve always had and that’s always been there. They were just too busy looking to notice.
Posted by: Michael H | October 23, 2008 at 12:00 PM
"the orientation of our solar system in the galaxy is what influences the average human state of mind in the various ages."
Can you expand on this, Michael H? Are we talking astrology?
Posted by: Teri | October 23, 2008 at 02:20 PM
So you think people live for 100,000 years in the satya-yuga, do you?
Or do you just selectively accept the bits you like –like the time periods?
“everything is truly a spiritual event”
Even Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin’s purges?
Sometimes I think you just want to stop discussion with these anodyne statements. But Thomas is right about seeking – we wouldn’t be on this blog if we’d found it.
Posted by: Pete | October 23, 2008 at 02:48 PM
Before going off into issues regarding consciousness, the nature of reality, time, etc., perhaps it would be a good idea to consider the obvious first. Mr. Prescott does a good job of pointing a certain fact out, although he steps a bit away from it in his final conclusion. What we observe here is much like what's observed with the alleged papal prophecies of St. Malachy. Those were supposed to have been written in 1139, but were claimed not to have been rediscovered until 1590 and printed in 1595. However, no known evidence or mention of them occurs prior to their publication in 1595. In John Hogue's book on the prophecies, he observes that the prophecies of popes BEFORE 1595 were generally spot-on accurate and specific, while those after the publication date were much less so. Conclusion: The prophecies were not those of St. Malachy and were not made before 1595. We see the same effect with these Brinkley prohecies: allegedly made on one date but no evidence for them prior to their publication. Some of the prohecies dating to before the publication of the book are exceedingly specific, such as the Reagan prophecy, down to the initials. Those of events after the publication date are much more vague and generic, as Mr. Prescott notes time after time in his column. The more specific the prophecy after this time period, the more wrong it's turned out to be. Mr. Prescott, who often bends over backward in his articles to provide the benefit of doubt, seeks to rule out the obvious by virtue of the fact that Mr. Brinkley has volunteered at a hospice and is described as a nice guy. Another poster would mitigate those pluses with details about the money Mr. Brinkley makes off of his alleged ability. Regardless, none of those facts about Mr. Brinkley eliminate the most obvious conclusion: these prophecies don't date to the 1970s but rather the publication date of the book, and several were written after the facts they purport to predict. The rest are vague generalities or just plain wrong. Mr. Brinkley seeing prophecies he was inclined to see based on worldview would not explain the specificity of the Reagan prediction. Class these writings then as genuine prophecy and that theory can't explain the increasing vagueness and inaccuracy the further the prophecies get from the publication date. Pose the theory that these prophecies were made solely for the publication of the book, and both facts are explained - the simplest explanation that covers all the facts, without introducing untestable and unprovable concepts of time or reality, or like Mr. Prescott's acquaintance, parallel universes.
Regarding the defence of Mr. Brinkley mounted in the vast majority of comments, I believe the commenters would be served well to take the more critical (but not enough in my opinion :-) :-) )approach of Mr. Prescott. If you seek truth, you need to separate facts from error and lies. Mental gymnastics to preserve claims that fit your worldview won't do you good in the long run. I believe there is a Tibetan proverb that admonishes to trust those who seek the truth, but doubt those who claim to have found it.
Posted by: Joseph | October 23, 2008 at 03:23 PM
Joseph, everything you just said there is classic textbook skepticism, and while it is useful to use those tactics in many cases, it does not always work. And when you are honest and face to face with strange events, you just have to admit it, whatever the consequences are to the worldview that you have intellectually decided must be true. The scientific method is great, but it's also very slow, and none of us use it to make the day to day decisions we must make to navigate through the world on a daily basis. We trust our senses and what they tell us, fully understanding that sometimes we get things wrong, but we also get them right or we couldn't possibly survive in the world. And sometimes the things we get right are very unusual and do not fit with the rest of what we think we know. If you expect us all to suppress those experiences because they do not fit into a common sense view of reality and because someone else's view of the world will be offended by it, you are on the wrong blog, I dare say.
Michael P. may choose to correct me on this, but I for one feel that here is a place where we are free to think about such things. We are not idiots. We can make up our own minds and, contrary to what you may think, it's really okay for us to do that even if the thoughts we end up with do not match yours.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 23, 2008 at 05:12 PM
I want to say that I too am still seeking, so my thoughts are just ideas. I think it's worth pointing out that according to many of our greatest teachers, logic is a product of thought and thought is our enemy:
"Human thinking is born out of some sort of neurological defect ... anything that is born out of human thinking is destructive."
-u.g. krishnamurti
In regards to the 58,000 year span of the yugas, this number can be found in the book "While the Gods Play" by Alain Danielou
There are many different time frames for the four ages and I don't know for certain what is true. I suspect that there may be "Great Years" (say, in the millions) and then multiple "ages" within the Great Year. I don't expend too much energy trying to sort it out.
Pete wrote:
"Even Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin’s purges?"
This is such a good question that I'd like to respond to it. Without question the answer is absolutely 'yes'. It all relates to the 'opposites', and it is our knowledge of these opposites that caused our fall (when we ate the fruit of this knowledge and became 'like God'). This is why you (and even I) regard these people and events as pure evil. The greatest Eastern teachers will tell you that you must forget about notions of good and evil to achieve liberation. In Isaiah 45:7 it says:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Some other quotes to consider:
"The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind."
-Hsin Hsin Ming, by Seng T'san, the third Zen patriarch of China
"Three pounds of flax in front of your nose,
Close enough, and mind is still closer.
Whoever talks about affirmation and negation
Lives in the right and wrong region."
-Zen Master Mumon [1183-1260]
"If you are attached to your thinking, then everything has name and form. This is the world of opposites."
-Zen Master Seung Sahn
"...the true Renouncer, firm and fixed,
Who—seeking nought, rejecting nought—dwells proof
Against the "opposites"
-Bhagavadgita
Also, I think Michael H made a good observation. Calling these the 'end times' can create fear, this is very true. But all I can say is my own experience showed me (like it or not) that these were simply the 'end times' and it's up to me and all of us to deal with it. And for what it is worth, here's how I deal with what could be paralyzing fear if one focuses on the negative:
• A South American shaman warned author John Perkins (author of Economic Hitman), just before he was to take ayahuasca, that there was nothing to fear, but if he had fear, then there would be plenty to fear. For me, this relates directly to these times.
• Trust that God will give you only what you need to achieve liberation. (recall the quote earlier by Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche)
•On a more practical note, avoid any news that creates fear in you. Nothing can be gained by reading depressing headlines or about the suffering that is occurring around the world. It will only defeat you. The "prince of the world" truly does exist and wants nothing more than for you to be in a state of fear. And the media is, for the most part, controlled by the prince of the world.
• And finally, seek for answers. If you don't *know*, then you must continue seeking. Once you know, you won't need to seek any further.
Some quotes:
"If you are thirsty, the river comes to you. If you are not thirsty, there is no river." - Satprem
And the Sanskrit text, the "Tripura Rahasya: The Mystery Beyond the Trinity" says:
"Truly a man will ever head for destruction in his ignorance.
"His salvation lies in investigation alone"
—Tripura Rahasya Chp III.2-3
"...the mind engaged in practical search for truth is the surest means of emancipation
—Tripura Rahasya Chp VIII.5
"seek and ye shall find" - The Bible
And please remember what Hopi Elder Thomas Banyacya said:
"There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold onto the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart and they will suffer greatly.
"Know the river has its destination. The Elders say we must let go of the shore and push off and into the river.
"Keep your eyes open and your head above water. See who is in there with you and Celebrate."
I feel certain that it is those who struggle against what is happening, who refuse to go with the flow, who will suffer the most. Acceptance is key.
Posted by: Thomas | October 23, 2008 at 07:48 PM
Joseph makes many good points, and I believe I am more inclined to be skeptical about Brinkley than most of the people who have commented on this thread. However, there are some reasons why I would not jump to the conclusion that he is a fraud.
For one thing, there may be independent confirmation that some of Brinkley's earlier predictions were made before the fact. For instance, in the Web page that lists Brinkley's prophecies (linked in the text), Brinkley writes,
I now know that "RR" stood for Ronald Reagan, but at the time I had no idea who the "cowboy" was. A few months later, when I was recalling these visions for Dr. Raymond Moody, the noted psychiatrist & researcher of near-death experiences, he asked me who I thought "RR" was. Without hesitation I said, "Robert Redford." He has never let me forget that mistake & ribs me about it every time we get together.
If it is true that Brinkley discussed this prophecy with Moody well in advance of Reagan's rise to power, it would be significant. Could Brinkley be lying? Possibly, but he would risk being contradicted by Moody himself. Could Brinkley and Moody be in cahoots to deceive us? I doubt it. Moody, at least, strikes me as a reputable and serious investigator.
On the other hand, there are people who question Brinkley's honesty, including some who say he has wildly inflated his military record. And he has certainly made money off his claims, a fact that may be grounds for suspicion in itself.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 23, 2008 at 09:45 PM
Joseph's post was full of the same general "Occam's Razor/which is more likely?/extraordinary proof requires extraordinary evidence" persuasion tactics that seek to settle particular questions without looking at particular facts.
I'm not persuaded of Brinkley's prophetic experiences, but that doesn't mean I must of necessity explain them away either, unless perhaps I was a materialist who felt deeply challenged by the implications of Brinkley's claims. I just don't know, and I'm comfortable living with that uncertainty.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 23, 2008 at 11:45 PM
We might as well go for the classic explanation, with current materialistic views, this is a proof that NDE's are just plain product of the brain.
Of course, far is my intention to imply that NDE's are product of the brain!
This would be considered ignorance to consider only one case, while there are countless out there with good attitude.
I;m just saying that this type of NDE is expected t be found on skeptical blogs to debunk!
Posted by: Allen | October 24, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Are we talking astrology?
It's certainly related, Teri, though not in the sense that most would describe astrology today. The Binary Research Institute link above has some fairly detailed articles outlining the thinking, but the gist of it is that as the sun and our solar system changes its orientation in relation to the galaxy and the hypothesized companion star, human beings are subjected to certain EM fields that tend to raise or lower the collective consciousness.
Cruttenden, basing himself largely on Yukteswar's prior work, suggests that the depths of the Kali Yuga were reached in the late Dark Ages, and that the Renaissance was the beginning of an ascension to the subsequent, higher ages. We're obviously not there yet, but it's hard to argue that mankind as a whole isn't more enlightened today than five hundred or a thousand years back. It's also interesting to me that there are so many cultures and mythologies worldwide that reference an ancient era of enlightenment.
Whether Yukteswar's time frame is valid or not, the idea of human history being cyclical and not linear is not exclusive to Hindu theology, and may have some validity.
So you think people live for 100,000 years in the satya-yuga, do you?
Or do you just selectively accept the bits you like –like the time periods?
Not necessarily, Pete, although I do think that we age because we expect to.
Even Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin’s purges?
Sometimes I think you just want to stop discussion with these anodyne statements.
Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot and their monstrous brethren of the past and present are all examples of egos gone mad, and do not change the fact that the reality we're occupying is a spiritual reality. These men, as well as the contemporary clerics of radical Islam, are guilty of accepting their own ideas of reality as absolute to a degree that's inconceivable to most of us.
Those of us who are troubled by these and other atrocities are demonstrating a higher level of consciousness through our dismay, which I consider very hopeful.
Also, it's certainly not my intention to stop any discussions, Pete. If there's any intent behind anything I may write, it's in trying to point out that we're already in a spiritual reality, any and all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding.
It's from this conviction that I find speculation regarding an apocalypse somewhat amusing. What is real will endure. If humanity implodes, the real will still endure. So . . . everyone might as well relax. :)
In regards to the 58,000 year span of the yugas, this number can be found in the book "While the Gods Play" by Alain Danielou
Thanks for the source, Thomas. I was only aware of the two I mentioned earlier.
As for Brinkley, I think MP's earlier speculation is most likely correct: people see what they're conditioned to see.
Posted by: Michael H | October 24, 2008 at 01:07 AM
Apart from what Joseph said, MP himself has previously expressed similar doubts about the Mother Shipton prophecies in an earlier thread.
"anything that is born out of human thinking is destructive." –Krishnamurti.
But destruction is still spiritual, right (because everything is)?
Or if this is a misunderstanding of what you’re saying, why don’t you advocate what MP advocated (tongue in cheek) in the earlier thread, when he said he could hardly be bothered to correct a mistake because he was in a Tolle-like state of apathy and might just as well look for his slippers? Will you decide not to make the effort to *think * out a reply to this because in doing so, you would create something dangerously destructive?
Posted by: Pete | October 24, 2008 at 11:49 AM
“I do think that we age because we expect to.” -Micheal H
Animals don’t expect or think, yet they grow up, age and die. Human babies don’t expect anything but milk, but they grow up. It is said that anorexic girls don’t want to grow up, but alas, they wither away too. Mick Jagger wanted to die before he grew old. Look at him now.
Our illusory forms are invested with the predisposition to age and die. It’s part of the consensus we call physical reality.
Posted by: Teri | October 24, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Sorry, I meant to say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." My goof.
Allen: I agree with you. The standard tactic is to take the debunkable cases, which are the easy ones, debunk them, and then falsely portray them as typical of the entire phenomenon, and POOF! Just like that, mystery solved, no problematic oddities in the world at all.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 24, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Our illusory forms are invested with the predisposition to age and die. It’s part of the consensus we call physical reality.
Predisposed, yes. But what happens if someone sees beyond the predisposition?
Mick Jagger wanted to die before he grew old.
I didn't realize that, though I do recall Roger Daltrey's plaintive cry to that effect in The Who's My Generation.
Posted by: Michael H | October 24, 2008 at 01:19 PM
Having seen what happens to people as they age, I would also prefer to die before I grow (very) old. Extreme old age looks very unpleasant to me, though I suppose almost anything can be tolerated if you have the right attitude ...
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 24, 2008 at 03:59 PM
"But what happens if someone sees beyond the predisposition?"
He still dies, but he goes to Heaven.
You're right about Daltrey, though -sorry. I was confusing it with "Satisfaction"...
Posted by: Teri | October 24, 2008 at 04:01 PM
We know that meditation/imagination can control physiology, as Tibetan monks do when they dry the wet towels they have been covered with, while sitting in the snow, instead of freezing to death.
So I have wondered if it is possible to develop a "language" of meditation that tunes up the body. For example, if you knew how cells worked and exactly the processes that lead to disease, would it eventually be possible (after such a language were developed) to meditatively repair oneself?
I wonder if humanity puts as much effort in developing a "technology" of the interior as it puts into technology of the exterior, would we develop such a language, and would there be a time when people could live hundreds of years through it?
Seems far fetched, but...?
Posted by: dmduncan | October 24, 2008 at 04:53 PM
"would there be a time when people could live hundreds of years"
The problem is the brain. It is physiologically incapable of living beyond 150 or so, because brain cells are not renewed.
Apart from that,as MP says, who wants to stay alive in a decrepit state? Better to go somewhere better :)
Posted by: Teri | October 24, 2008 at 05:14 PM
"Human thinking is born out of some sort of neurological defect ... anything that is born out of human thinking is destructive."
-u.g. krishnamurti (quoted by Thomas)
Maybe Mr Krishnamurti is saying that animals appreciate the world of form better than we do, being embedded in their environment and fully adapted to it, making no attempt at domination.
As the dragonfly darts through the September sky, is it experiencing ecstasy, or is it incapable of ecstasy, merely programmed to hawk for food over the pond? When I identify with the dragonfly in flight, perhaps I start to see the world through God’s eyes and “know that it is good”.
Whatever we are, we are not the same as other animals, nor can we be expected to be so. I suggest that our purpose here includes thoughtful appreciation of the world of form, whether (ultimately) it is illusory or not.
If thinking, dreaming and identifying were simply tools of the ego, and they only created horrors like those that Pete mentions, then the Krishnamurti quote might be apt.
But “thought is destructive,” seems such an absolutist statement. To me, it implies Manichean dualism: the world of form is a horrible nightmare, humanity is a terrible mistake, God is fighting the Demiurge to win our souls from perdition.
I am not ready to say that thinking, dreaming and identifying are wholly the tools of a hubristic ego. I’d still prefer to invite them to be creative servants of the soul.
Posted by: Ben | October 24, 2008 at 05:58 PM
I thought I'd share with everyone here two web sites of u.g. krishnamurti. He remains a personal favorite of mine. Some argue whether or not he was enlightened. Many think he was. I don't really know for sure since "enlightenment" is not easily defined. But based on my own experiences and subsequent study, I feel strongly that he is one of our greatest teachers, enlightened or not.
Be forewarned, virtually everything he says turns non-serious seekers off. And by 'non-serious seekers', I mean people who already have such strong opinions on the nature of our existence that they quickly dismiss ideas that don't fit their self-created paradigm.
If you read his work "Thought is Your Enemy", I urge you to be open minded and not too quick to dismiss it:
http://www.well.com/user/jct/enemy0.htm
Here is a web site devoted to him:
http://ugkrishnamurti.org/
And some quotes of his:
“Consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
“The peacefully functioning body doesn't care one hoot for your ecstasies, beatitudes, or blissful states.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
“Love and hate are not opposite ends of the same spectrum; they are one and the same thing.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
Posted by: Thomas | October 24, 2008 at 07:45 PM
So I have wondered if it is possible to develop a "language" of meditation that tunes up the body. For example, if you knew how cells worked and exactly the processes that lead to disease, would it eventually be possible (after such a language were developed) to meditatively repair oneself?
I suspect the big picture answer to this is "yes". This is sort of what I was implying with my earlier comment. It may be entirely possible to maintain one's physiology at peak health indefinitely, including brain cells.
Since I'm yet to figure out how to do it though, I'm with MP and Teri for now. Of course, if anyone actually did manage this, they'd need to go underground immediately - the materialists would want to dissect them.
Posted by: Michael H | October 24, 2008 at 07:48 PM
Michael H., it's an interesting notion. When the monks do their heat generation exercises they are imagining a sun in their belly (if I remember correctly), which is where the idea of a language comes in. The visualization is representative, but it seems to effect a real physical correlate. Visual language that the cells of the body seem to understand and respond to. Extrapolating from that raises some interesting questions about where it is possible for that practice to go regarding one's own physical well being.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 24, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Age differences is just another kind of "duality" that causes separation. Death is just another way to experience separation. The death of someone we love is the ultimate lesson in separation. That is why we will never be allowed to know absolutely for certain that there is "life after death." The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. Separation teaches the soul what it means to be separate, something it can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness so often commented on in NDE's. - Art
Posted by: Art | October 24, 2008 at 11:00 PM
u.g. Krishnamurti is so off this planet, he might as well not have incarnated. The statements he makes, even if true, have no practical value.
Posted by: Pete | October 25, 2008 at 10:08 AM
“I am not ready to say that thinking, dreaming and identifying are wholly the tools of a hubristic ego. I’d still prefer to invite them to be creative servants of the soul.”
My research into the mystics appears to suggest that they believe that the human struggle was very much worth it. The process of the journey of the soul appears to be the way this Isness expresses its intelligence and vitality.
We are gods in the making but at this level of our evolutionary consciousness process this “gods in the making statement” can appear to be more of an ego statement than a statement of reality.
As far as good and evil and free will, what would religion be like without these twins of human perception?
“Consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
From my point of view it is awareness that is so pure. Also it is my view that Krisnamurti was more about intellectual knowledge than personal enlightenment.
“The peacefully functioning body doesn't care one hoot for your ecstasies, beatitudes, or blissful states.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
The functioning body is profoundly affected by a blissful state but then he put a qualifier on his statement by stating a peacefully functioning body.
“Love and hate are not opposite ends of the same spectrum; they are one and the same thing.”
— U. G. Krishnamurti
If evil is nonexistent than hate would be nonexistent as love is the only “true” reality. But appearances such as hate and evil are incredibly and profoundly realistic; but then how would perfect awareness express “Its” intelligence without appearances.
Jesus’ statement about judge not by appearances appears to be a profoundly realistic statement about the underlying reality of appearances.
Posted by: william | October 25, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Extrapolating from that raises some interesting questions about where it is possible for that practice to go regarding one's own physical well being.
I agree, dmduncan. There are also stories and legends in several esoteric traditions that suggest physical immortality is possible. Comte St. Germaine and the Great White Brotherhood of the Theosophists, the Taoist Immortals, and Yogananda's writings about the Mahavatar Babaji are all examples, and Baird Spalding's six-volume http://www.amazon.com/Life-Teaching-Masters-Far-East/dp/0875165389>Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East is filled with tales of encounters with immortals. The Wiki entry on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji>Babaji has this to say:
It makes sense when I think about it. Since everyone is truly immortal anyway, I see no reason that someone who has fully realized their immortality couldn't maintain any given form indefinitely. I'm also pretty sure that the qualifier "fully realized" is the tough one.
Posted by: Michael H | October 25, 2008 at 11:20 AM
"but then how would perfect awareness express “Its” intelligence without appearances." ...William
William, this is very true.
"Since everyone is truly immortal anyway, I see no reason that someone who has fully realized their immortality couldn't maintain any given form indefinitely." ...Michael H
This presupposes that life on Earth is worth as much and maybe more than life on other planes. If true, it makes William's statement even more valid, and supports those who value rather than denounce the world of form. Interesting. But living for such a long time would tend to clog up the earth, don't you think?
Posted by: Teri | October 25, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Michael H: Oh sure, that's the hard part. I think our minds are habituated by the form of life (economy) we live to function on a very trivial level of awareness as the parts in the machine that we have become, so that adventuring into deeper levels and producing meaningful results would require living the kind of life that does not have the packaged appeal of a cool new toy sitting on a store shelf. If it were easy and attractive we'd all be spiritual geniuses.
William: "Jesus’ statement about judge not by appearances appears to be a profoundly realistic statement about the underlying reality of appearances."
This comes to mind every election cycle when appearance is all that seems to matter. I watched Bob Barr on a local show last night and was reminded of how the DNC and GOP both conspired to keep him out of the public debates so that the American people had two and ONLY two choices before them. Two choices, as I like to tell people, which is ONE more than a dictatorship has.
I am not thrilled by the difference.
So judging by appearances is an anti Christian behavior that seems to be widespread even among people who call themselves followers of Christ.
And maybe if people called themselves followers of Christ instead of Christian, some would think more about how Christ lived, some wouldn't be so easily deceived by the appearances that all politicians manipulate, and there wouldn't be as many people going to foreign lands to kill other people.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 25, 2008 at 12:08 PM
“If true, it makes William's statement even more valid, and supports those who value rather than denounce the world of form.”
When I started my research into the different religions I thought for sure that I would embrace the Buddhist religion but: their denouncement of the world of form appeared to me that they have missed something very important about the necessity of living a life in a physical form.
The “guru” I went to stay with for a short period of time before I read his book stated that human life was not only worthless but also disgusting. This person had a PhD in Buddhism. He was considered one of the advanced Buddhist’s in his country and when I saw a picture of him and the other high ranking Buddhists at the temple he was the only one with a smile on his face.
I thought to myself this might not be the religion for me if 11 out of 12 in a picture look unhappy and the only one with a smile on his face had stated in his book that life is not only worthless but also disgusting. But I do find many aspects of Buddhism profound and a worthwhile study.
“some wouldn't be so easily deceived by the appearances that all politicians manipulate,”
Not sure this is what Jesus was referring to when he stated judge not by appearances.
Here is a quote from the open door: an intelligence coming thru George Wright a medium.
“My children, back of and beyond the universe you know permeating and transcending it there exists an Underlying Reality the nature of which you cannot conceive or express in terms of your ordinary everyday experiences or language.
It is Cosmic Consciousnesses that is aware of its own Being. It is intelligent, universal, integral in its essence and in its manifestations. It is coherent, individual, and a complete Whole that expresses its potentialities in a diversity of individual manifestations.”
One has to admit the part about “a diversity of individual manifestations”. Every one of us has the appearance of being unique not only in form but personality.
Posted by: william | October 25, 2008 at 05:29 PM
"Not sure this is what Jesus was referring to when he stated judge not by appearances."
Some people said Jesus was possessed by a demon because he was saying things that only the learned say, but he had no learning. That's when he admonished them not to judge by appearances but by "righteous judgement."
Posted by: dmduncan | October 26, 2008 at 12:14 PM
"Judge not that you be not judged for in each measure that you judge you shall be judged in return." - from the Sermon on the mount ~ Matthew 5 through 7.
"Why do you try and remove the cinder from your neighbor's eye when you haven't done anything to remove the log from your own eye?" -- Also somewhere in the New Testament.
Posted by: Art | October 26, 2008 at 03:01 PM
The talk of not judging by appearances is from John 7:24.
Posted by: dmduncan | October 26, 2008 at 03:22 PM
Hello, Give something to help those hungry people from Africa and India,
I created this blog about this subject:
at http://tinyurl.com/5pul7l
Posted by: cheritycall | October 27, 2008 at 05:08 PM