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I agree with you regarding the "chickens are coming home to roost" quote, it was a stupid remark. Those going to war are loyally supporting the decisions of those in politics, they are the innocents, they deserve more respect than what that comment implies.

I agree there are both black and white racists in America, is this Pastor saying what you feel are coated racist remarks because he is a racist through and through, or is he appealing to his Ego, and the power he derives from being on that pulpit, drawing the love of his churchgoer underdogs or is he just like me, sometimes shoots off with mouth,think later then go DOH! why did I say that for?????

I see him as the later just forgive him as Obama has and keep him out of the politics at hand it's not his call.

“And so I simply have no tolerance for any nonsense on this subject”

One person’s nonsense is another person’s truth. Who determines what is nonsense. If a country is controlled by a dictator than I guess the dictator decides what is nonsense.

My hot button is every time I read or hear someone state we are a democracy. We are not a democracy; we are a republic. In a republic we vote into office elected officials that we think can represent us best. When our officials do not represent us we claim the victim status and blame politicians.

My point politicians are only a reflection of those that voted them into office. They are a mirror of their society. If the politicians are greedy and materialistic you can bet the society is greedy and materialistic.

Terrorism has existed in the world for thousands of years and can be very effective. Look at the impact 9/11 had on America. The fear mongering, the economy tanking, a war with no end in sight, another war we may lose like the Russians did, and a divided country where each side thinks the other side is talking nonsense. From a strategic perspective that was a very successful terrorist attack.

It makes little difference if we send a black man or a white woman or a war hero to the white house. For a country to change its direction or overcome its ills or problems or whatever it must usually reach rock bottom. Very similar to a person that must reach their lowest point before they are able to say to themselves “I am ready to change” or I am ready to view the world anew.

From my perspective we in America are not even close to that point yet. We still think we can change Washington by electing politicians within the system to change the system.

Michael said: "those who are fairly close to Ground Zero, simply have a different perspective from some of those who live in other parts of the country."

But if we want to develop spiritually, don't we need to use our horror when we are personally affected like this to extend ourselves to others in similar situations? Isn’t this the way to increase our empathy? So, for example, we can become equally horrified by the effects of what America is doing by intervening in Iraq where so many people over the whole country have lost loved ones in the last 5 years? Should we not use this kind of lesson to learn that all wars are unjust and stupid? And that enlightened countries will not go to war (unless, perhaps, they are invaded, or intend purely to act as peacekeepers to prevent genocide)?

Michael, I was rather surprised and dismayed to see many of the comments in response to your earlier post about Wright and Obama. I find the sort of liberal responses that bend over backwards not to condemn utterances by black people, however objectionable, as depressingly thoughtless.

I am by nature someone who is slow to condemn, but without strong condemnation we get into the situation the Hitler appeasers were in in the 1930s. You basically excuse and allow bad things to happen. So I essentially agree with you. I am increasingly impressed with the stance that the far-sighted anti-Hitler people took – thank god they did. To do so required critical thought, strong values and a willingness to object, disagree, and ultimately take violent action.

I can't understand how Obama can have stayed in that church and I think it raises very serious questions about him. I think complete moral relativism is also dangerous - especially of the white guilt variety. America's liberals (I'm English, living in England) seem extraordinarily polarised from the much more right wing mainstream views in America, and that's also very dangerous. Where's the common ground? Where are the shared values?

One other point is that it alarms me if the typical people who accept evidence for survival of consciousness, psi effects, etc, are wishy-washy liberals who display a tendency to lack rigorous thought. It undermines the evidence and the arguments for psi etc. One reason I like your blog is because you aren't a soft-minded new age type, willing to believe anything that sounds nice.

And I write as, essentially, a liberal type with wishy-washy tendencies!

Right now we can't move forward on race in this country because it is so hard to discuss it open and honestly without 'stepping in it'. This sort of politics needs to change before there is progress.

I am hoping that now that the liberals are getting bitten by their own rhetoric and racial traps in this campaign, that some of them will wake up too it and there will be a change going forward.

But maybe I'm being too optimistic

"One other point is that it alarms me if the typical people who accept evidence for survival of consciousness, psi effects, etc, are wishy-washy liberals who display a tendency to lack rigorous thought. It undermines the evidence and the arguments for psi etc."

I think you're mixed up here. In general, liberals are the LEAST likely to believe in these phenomena. The "blue states" are easily the most secular and atheistic portions of the country. The liberal media is the main supporter of reductionistic scientism.

Reading that other comment thread, I couldn't help but think,

"Ego... ego... ego... ego..."

Anyways, ironically enough, the skeptics have done an actual decent job debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories. I've noticed with them that they are quite able at debunking the bunk - it's their "bunk detectors" that need some tuning.

"I think you're mixed up here. In general, liberals are the LEAST likely to believe in these phenomena. The "blue states" are easily the most secular and atheistic portions of the country. The liberal media is the main supporter of reductionistic scientism."

Liberal is a very broad term and covers many types of people. Some are the people you describe above, but others populate the new age movements, I think those are the types that the original author was describing.

"Liberal is a very broad term and covers many types of people. Some are the people you describe above, but others populate the new age movements, I think those are the types that the original author was describing."

True, but I'm describing the mainstream liberal position. Mainstream liberalism is definitely hostile to religion or anything that is vaguely associated with it. New Agers wouldn't find anything to support their worldview in the NY Review of Books, NY Times, etc.

Piers said: “I am increasingly impressed with the stance that the far-sighted anti-Hitler people took – thank god they did. To do so required critical thought, strong values and a willingness to object, disagree, and ultimately take violent action.”

Whilst it is true that war against Hitler can in principle be considered just because he invaded other countries and attempted genocide, it is just too easy to justify war by condemning appeasement. You think it ends the argument. But it doesn’t. We did not take a stand against other despotic regimes: Stalin’s purges, Pol Pot, Sudan…no doubt you could think of a dozen more. Was that appeasement? No. It is clear that we can’t keep intervening with “violent action” and compounding the mayhem, particularly by causing ‘collateral damage’ to millions of innocents (eg Dresden, Iraq).

Hitler came to power because Germany was treated badly at the end of World War One. Seething resentment is what happens when people are treated badly or with disrespect. It also happens when people identify with their country, and believe their country has been treated badly or with disrespect. Presumably, the 9/11 bombers had a sense of seething resentment, too.

How is all this to be ended? The answer is: by not creating seething resentment, or by recognising it and working to diminish it. As a model of solving problems (and as a Brit like you, Piers), I look to the Northern Ireland settlement, not World War Two. Ideally, the USA and Britain would use all their power to solve the Palestinian Question in this way. Until they do, there will, I am afraid, be seething resentment in the Middle East.

I am a little tired - more than a little, actually - of hearing about the prevalence of white racism in America while black racism, of the sort embodied in James Cone's theology and Jeremiah Wright's diatribes, goes uncondemned.

As I wrote in the previous threads, I can understand the source of black racism, and an exercise in genuine empathy should lead any Caucasian to question whether they could overcome their racial resentments if faced with the same historical heritage. This is not to excuse it. The fact is though, we are all subject to the powerful influence of our personal memories; when someone can also borrow from history to enhance their own memories, the task of finding the moment becomes even more challenging. Wright and Cone have each given voice to a particularly sinister aspect of the mentality in the African American community, but more visible black leaders share a similar guilt. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are both highly visible racists, yet their racial hostility is excused by the politically correct as a justifiable consequence of the historical atrocities inflicted upon the black population. There are way too many whites of a liberal persuasion who are also subject to accessing the shameful memories of the past, and are willing to accept guilt for actions that were carried out by those who are long dead. Until we all begin to understand that the only way for all of us to move beyond the polarization is to recognize that we are all human beings sharing the experience of life through our thought processes, including powerful historical memories, discovering genuine goodwill towards each other and a common hope for the future will remain highly elusive.

. . . the two Americas are not the rich and the poor, but those who felt personally affected by 9/11 and those who did not.

Like most Americans, 9/11 is seared into my memory. Though I’m sure the events were even more palpable for those in the Northeast, watching the second plane fly into the Trade Center as CNN was still describing the first impact as an accident as I sat in a hotel room in Bay City, Michigan is something that I’ll remember as long as I live. My interactions with business associates throughout the country over the ensuing weeks lead me to believe that the horror and distress felt throughout the country was profound, and it was the collective reactivity to those feelings that ultimately has engulfed the country in the debacle of Iraq. Though I disagree with Wright’s ‘justifications’ for the attacks, I have to admit that we was correct in pointing out that we would be wise to look within as we searched for an appropriate response. This again goes to the primacy of thought; both of the twisted theologians who had concluded that the highest purpose for their lives was to perish in the act of slaughtering innocents, and in the nearly unconscious reaction of this country in unleashing the formidable military power of the United States on a sovereign nation that was not directly involved in the attacks. The consequences of our government’s reactivity has now cost more American lives than the 9/11 attacks, and perhaps hundreds of thousands more throughout the Middle East, an area of the world that is now even more volatile than it was before.

Anyway, from now on I will try to stick to less controversial subjects, like ESP and life after death.

I personally think that exploring these topics is healthy on occasion, Michael. Facing issues that push our buttons can help us see how we are all affected by our personal thinking on many levels. Though it certainly isn’t productive to get pissed off for the sake of getting pissed off, if we can begin to see our own volatility and reactivity as what it truly is, an inner event, we may not only begin to live ourselves from a standpoint of more mental quiet and to move towards the moment, as we do so we will naturally begin to see the same processes occurring in others. And this is where the solution to all of this lies. When we can genuinely look at someone in the moment, and see not a hopelessly misguided lunatic, but honestly say “there but for the grace of God go I”, the proper responses will occur to us in the moment, as needed. This is the essence of living in authentic faith.

It always seems to get down to love. Are most human motives based in love? Did the terrorists that flew through the twin towers do that out of love?

Likewise was the Vietnam War out of love or fear or even greed? The same for the situation in Iraq. Love I don’t see it. Most Americans have no idea what is going on in Iraq or the continuous flow of new reasons why we are there. We opened up a hornet’s nest of deep seated religious and tribal hatred.

Is capitalism based in love? Yea sell that one. Maybe for some they believe it is the best economic system going but for others not so great. When we look at the conflicts in the world and in our consciousness it is not love causing those conflicts but selfishness.

And the sayings “there but for the grace of god go I”. I catch myself saying that once in a while. God’s grace is on everyone even a Hitler and a terrorist. To not see this aspect of god is to make god in our human image and not see that our souls are made in god’s image (i.e. spirit).

Could it be an individual’s and a society’s past actions and karma that creates our future? Because of a perfect feedback system called karma are we living in an environment exactly suited to advance our souls in love and compassion? Food for thought.

The world is relative for a perfect reason. Perfectly imperfect.

It always seems to get down to love. Are most human motives based in love? Did the terrorists that flew through the twin towers do that out of love? - william
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No, it was duality and separation. Inherent and inescapable properties of the physical universe. If you want Love, connectedness, and oneness you'll have to wait till you get to heaven. Politics, religion, race, culture, language, dialects, gender, sexual orientation, weight, height, color, pretty much everything in life exists in a kind of duality that oftentimes leads to separation, over and over again until it's thouroughly imprinted on the soul what it means to be a separate, unique, individual.

If you want Love, connectedness, and oneness you'll have to wait till you get to heaven.

. . . as long as one chooses to think so.

>I can't understand how Obama can have stayed in that church and I think it raises very serious questions about him.

Thanks, Piers, for your support - it's much appreciated!

Hillary Clinton said essentially the same thing in an interview published today:

"He would not have been my pastor," Clinton said. "You don't choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend."

Obama's lead in national polls has slipped since clips of the retired Rev. Jeremiah Wright began being played on national news programs. The uproar prompted Obama to give a wide-ranging speech on race in America a week ago. The Clinton campaign has refrained from getting involved in the controversy, but Clinton herself, responding to a question, denounced what she said was "hate speech."

"You know, I spoke out against Don Imus (who was fired from his radio and television shows after making racially insensitive remarks), saying that hate speech was unacceptable in any setting, and I believe that," Clinton said. "I just think you have to speak out against that. You certainly have to do that, if not explicitly, then implicitly by getting up and moving."

If you want Love, connectedness, and oneness you'll have to wait till you get to heaven. - Art
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as long as one chooses to think so. -Michael H

___________________________________________

I've been married 34 years today. My wife and I are still two separate, unique, individuals. We will never experience in this life the oneness and connectedness that exists on the other side. The whole purpose of this life is to teach the soul what it means to be separate, and what time and space look and feel like.

a man with a 30 second memory how does the transmission theory explain this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmzU47i2xgw&feature=related
just curious could it be his brain is constraining his memory to not allow it too come out.

Piers said: "I am increasingly impressed with the stance that the far-sighted anti-Hitler people took – thank god they did. To do so required critical thought, strong values and a willingness to object, disagree, and ultimately take violent action."

I agree. And that's why I have a hard time condemning Wright. (Although he doesn't always seem to display critical thought, and he speaks strongly against violent action.)

Look—I'm not saying that I like Wright's angry style, or that I'm pleased by everything he says. Far from it. But isn't there a danger in trying to shut down voices of dissent because you disagree with them? And particularly dissenters who promote non-violence, as Wright does?

And to fault someone (like Obama) who merely associates with a dissenter—isn't that even more troubling?

Clinton is not black and she was raised in an upper middle class family. She has no idea what it is like to be black in America.

This is no way is support for what this preacher stated. No preacher or anyone should mutter the words god d…. America or for that matter those words towards anyone even the guys that flew through the twin towers. Easy to state very very difficult to live by. After 9/11 we Americans wanted revenge. Saw it in myself even though intellectually and maybe spiritually I knew those feelings were not based in love.

God does not Dam anyone but expresses itself in an infinite variety of ways. Seek understanding not condemnation. I have read obama had this preacher listed as his spiritual advisor. Dumb move if he knew about these videos.

Personally I think white America is not about to vote a black man into the white house and will look for any excuse to not vote for a black man especially a liberal black man. Obama could walk on water and some Americans would find fault with him to not vote for him.

Wright speaking those words even in a heat of passion fails to understand the perfection of god and the evolution of the soul. And he certainty does not feel a oneness with human kind as the mystics do during their mystical experiences. I don’t think everyone has to wait to get to heaven to feel that oneness.

>Personally I think white America is not about to vote a black man into the white house and will look for any excuse to not vote for a black man especially a liberal black man. Obama could walk on water and some Americans would find fault with him to not vote for him.

But William, don't you see that the more you keep repeating words like that, the more likely they are to come true? Where's your—forgive me—hope?

Using racial stereotype terms like 'typical white woman' (Obama) or 'white America' are divisive, imo. I think MLK would disapprove of those types of characterizations, at least I hope so.

I cannot imagine anyone likely to be more neutral and objective regarding the Wright/Obama controversy than Hillary Clinton. Everyone knows that she has only our best interests at heart, don't we?

Even the Republicans realize this, which is why they are so insistent that she be the Democratic nominee . . . ;-)

>Even the Republicans realize this, which is why they are so insistent that she be the Democratic nominee

Which is why they're desperately hoping she can survive all those bullets whistling overhead :o)

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dan_kennedy/2008/03/clinton_under_fire.html

Hope is fine but awareness is better. This country is divided more than it has been since the civil war. We were not even this divided during the Vietnam War.

Both sides have dug in and obama’s hope theme would be like running up against a brick wall when he arrived in the white house. But hey it has given him a huge following. He has tapped into what many Americans see as a need to change directions in wash. It would be great to see this happen. During my lifetime I would be able to witness the civil rights movement and a black elected as president.

As far as Hillary she has more negatives than a very long algebra problem. The polls show 49% of Americans would never vote for her. Give the demos credit they know how to lose an election.

As Will Rogers stated he did not belong to any organized political party. He was a democrat.

>As Will Rogers stated he did not belong to any organized political party. He was a democrat.

Al Franken's version of that joke is: "I'm not a member of any organized religion. I'm Jewish." (I'm allowed to repeat jokes like that because I'm Jewish myself, at least by birth.)

Bruce, you might enjoy Brooks http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/opinion/25brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin>piece on Hilary in today's NY Times. An excerpt:

For three more months, Clinton is likely to hurt Obama even more against McCain, without hurting him against herself. And all this is happening so she can preserve that 5 percent chance.

When you step back and think about it, she is amazing. She possesses the audacity of hopelessness.

>Bruce, you might enjoy Brooks piece on Hilary in today's NY Times

Thanks, Michael. Great piece! I read it yesterday.

Call it womans intuition or whatever you may, but I get a very very bad vibe with that Mc Cain man, least say I wouldnt trust him as far as I could through him.

Am I judging a book by its cover? Is the thick black aura I see a figment of my imagination?

But there's a volatility about him that's tangible and somehow I don't see this to being an asset a president should possess. Plus he is as old as they come, so would this reflect his views in any way shape or form? Would he be the type to bring in the draft again???

You should read this, its the 6th article down called "Be Afraid of a Mc Cain Presidency" at;

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Can anyone here see beyond their feet right now? How about a projection, an eagle's view into what a future would be like with Mc Cain steering the ship called America?? Where will he lead you, what damage could this man do out there on the world's stage?.

Scary Scary.........

I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him!!!


Sorry for all the typos :-)

Call it womans intuition or whatever you may, but I get a very very bad vibe with that Mc Cain man, least say I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him. - Hope Rivers
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Don't you live in Australia? Do you really care that much who the President of the United States is? I live in the United States and I don't have a clue who the leader of Australia is. I figure God is in control anyway.

Art, yes I live in Australia and America is a relation to us Aussies, so with that said, I do care, it's a shame your so self focused and separated from what's really happening.

God is in control but you have the power to creat your own misery or good fortune, he won't stand in your way.

Yes the president has been already elected in the collective consciousness by the choices and beliefs of the spirits existing today.

But it doesn't mean we stop creating, because we are in a constant motion of creation.

Therefore you are responsible for present and future generations with what you do, think and become whilst here also.

Think beyond YOU become ONE with everyone and then you get to feel compassion for the WHOLE universe, even the land Downunder may interest you because what we do also ripples out as does every other countries decisions and choices.

Yes the president has been already elected in the collective consciousness by the choices and beliefs of the spirits existing today

I forgot to meantion the spirits of yesterday, thye stll have their influence too.

Don't you live in Australia? Do you really care that much who the President of the United States is?

I think that there are many people worldwide who care very much who the President of the United States is. Hope may not have said so herself, but what the United States chooses to do on the world stage has global implications. Struggling as we are lately (in all areas), we are still looked to for leadership from much of the world.

I think this is a critical election, maybe the most critical of my lifetime. The degree that divine intervention will be involved will become clear soon enough.

The spirits of yesterday have their influence in the minds of you and I today, this whole racism thing we've been going on about is just the one example, te books you read from the long gone dead, still influence your minds, beliefs and thoughts that go with you everywhere.

Just thought I'd clarify it for those who may misunderstand where I'm coming from.

The collective consciounsess, is the reap what you sow and karma in action.

I apologise Art if my post is a tad passionate, I guess we see things differently that's all :-)

Sorry, Michael, but you have not really looked into what might have happened on 9/11. There are very seriously founded doubts on what might really have happened. Do you really believe that the "government" has told you the truth. There are many layers within the government. Listen to the latest interview on "Electric Politics". It behooves all citizens to question authority and to think for themselves.

I think what's angered you about Wright's statement concerning 911 is understandable, but why don't you include the almost exact statements by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Paige Patterson (who by the way is leasing a section of Southwester Baptist Theological Seminary to the Republican Party), Franklin Graham and others of the Moral Mafia?
There are those of faith who try to use reason, and then there are those who are superstitious and try to equate our actions here with cosmic retributions. Most of the snake oil salesmen I've mentioned above use superstitious fear to sheer the sheep instead of feed them. Why is Obama held to a higher standard of association than Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 41 and Dubbya? All of whom shared the stage with Billy Graham, Francis Shaeffer, W.A. Criswell, have spoken at Bob Jones University (as white supremacist as they come) or been endorsed by John Hagee (who wants us to bomb Iran so Jesus can come again)
The superstitious dirt hits both sides.

As far as mc Cain. He is my senator. No I did not vote for him.

My take on mc Cain he feels like a loser since Vietnam. He felt held back by his government from winning that war. I suspect he would have bombed every man woman and child to win that war. To some during the Vietnam War Jane Fonda was a national hero to others john mc Cain.

And we lost and look what is happening today. We are using Vietnam to make American products because of their cheap labor.

Here has been my point. It does not matter who wins in the long haul. Short haul maybe. The die has been cast the paradigms are in place. A paradigm shift is a mega change in how a country views the world and itself.

Those within the system cannot change the system. Too much invested in existing system. Maybe in a dictatorship this can occur but not in a republic. Back in the 90's we sent a lot of new congress people to wash and within weeks most of them had fallen in toe with the rest of wash.

It is not about changing politicians. It is about changing the mentality of an entire country. In a republic politicians are only a reflection of us.

I suspect if mc Cain wins it is bomb bomb Iran time. They announced on cable news today Iran is trying to have more Americans visit their country for their vacations. Since the euros are fetching lots of dollars Iran may be the place to visit. Best do it before mc Cain enters office. As jay leno announced last night another name for an American tourist in Iran is hostage.

Williams says, "Here has been my point. It does not matter who wins in the long haul. Short haul maybe. The die has been cast the paradigms are in place. A paradigm shift is a mega change in how a country views the world and itself"

"It is not about changing politicians. It is about changing the mentality of an entire country. In a republic politicians are only a reflection of us".

Yes I agree that the mentality of an entire country needs to change but before the flower can bloom a seed must be planted.

The seed starts with a vision, the vision ripples through society, shifts slowly begin to occur, others join in, it spreads and multiplies etc.

Perfect example is Jesus Christ.

So who you choose for a leader is important.

Jesus was so far advanced even today very few fully understand his message.

And to live by his words? After 9/11 how many wanted to forgive? Richard Gere spoke of compassion and forgiveness and was booed off the stage.

How many want to give unto Rome what is Rome’s?

How many really believe the meek shall inherit the earth?

He message was not about leading a country but developing the soul towards love and compassion. I suspect he cared little about nationalism and patriotism.

How many would want to carry a pack two miles when only asked to carry one mile by a most hated conquer and occupier??

How many would offer their shirt if a thief stole their coat?

I think his words would have died in the sand if it were not for St Paul.

A country moves in a certain direction and in a republic leaders are elected that reflect that direction. If they do not reflect the majority of the voters they either are not elected again or were never elected. In the last sixty years what president has changed the direction of this country.

If Jesus ran for president he would not get 5% of the votes. And who would reject him the most? The evangels, especially the preachers of the evangels. Go figure.

William, you are quite right. When people deliberately vote for someone they suspect is corrupt, it exposes the huge limitations of our version of democracy.

some short quotes say it better than long posts.

Anger is the feeling that makes your mouth work faster than your mind.

Evan Esar (1899 - 1995)

Wisdom is what's left after we've run out of personal opinions.

Cullen Hightower

Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him.

Fyodor Dostoevsky

Ross there's approximately 6.75 billion people on this planet and about 2.2 billion consider themselves christian, somehow I equate this more than the 5% you suggested who would follow Christ.

If he were to show up tomorrow coming down on a cloud, with trumpets blaring somehow I don't see the percentage dropping.

My mistake I meant William, my apologies Ross.

Michael P. wrote:

"To people outside the Northeast, 9/11 was an event on television. It was not quite real. It inspired a certain amount of philosophical rumination and water-cooler chatter, but its impact was necessarily limited. For people close to the attacks, 9/11 was not a TV show. My most vivid memory of that day is seeing the debris cloud spreading south along the horizon of the Atlantic as I walked on the beach."

A good comment. I've often contemplated the emotions aroused in me by 9/11, versus how I would be feeling if I had been personally affected. The sheer 'spectacle' of it (I know, a terrible way to describe it) has made it more a Hollywood special effect to those who didn't get a real connection to it (including myself).

There's also a flipside though, and that is that we all have no understanding of what conflict zones have gone through. For every 9/11 that Michael says the rest of us don't get, there's a Nicaragua, an Iraq, a West Bank that those people will point out that Americans don't get. This is illustrated graphically by the recent news of the US casualties in Iraq having passed 4000. Most of us find that quite troubling, and yet the estimates of Iraqi dead are between 85,000 and 1 million. That dwarfs 9/11.

Kind regards,
Greg

> If Jesus ran for president he would not get
> 5% of the votes. And who would reject him
> the most? The evangels, especially the
> preachers of the evangels. Go figure.

I doubt Jesus would have run for any office, let alone president.

Also, we're electing a president, not a saint, messiah, or a pope. It should be a strong leader who can get things done, and twist the right arms, etc. I suspect Jesus would not have been a very effective president b/c people may not want to hear what he wanted to say, and he didn't seem very forceful in getting his way, except with the sellers in the Temple.

"we're electing a president, not a saint, messiah, or a pope. It should be a strong leader who can get things done, and twist the right arms, etc."

I see. So the existing paradigm is AOK. A good leader should be keen to wage war, ignore the poor and line the pockets of his supporters. Just fine and dandy.

“and yet the estimates of Iraqi dead are between 85,000 and 1 million. That dwarfs 9/11.”

Good point Greg. I find it interesting that most Americans even some presidential candidates blame the Iraqis for these deaths without realizing we invaded a country that had a simmering undercurrent of tribal and religious hatred thinking the Iraqi’s would react like the Kuwait’s, which was one tribe not three.

In this case ignorance of a countries history can become every expensive in lives and treasure for the invaders and occupiers. But 40 years of oil reserves at 110 dollars a barrel now that is some real treasure.

“In the last sixty years what president has changed the direction of this country.”

Injecting Jesus name into the discussion did not clarify my statements. My point is and was that countries tend to go in certain directions in spite of who is elected as president. Short term there may be some differences but an overall change in direction I don’t see it.

Paradigm shifts occur after all other avenues of trying to make the existing paradigm work or from someone outside the existing paradigm. And since United States is a republic that elects its leaders, the chances of electing someone outside the existing paradigm (Jesus) would be very rare and that person would have to be a great actor and liar.

Come to think of it for a politician that could occur.

Talk about great liars I was watching the news last night and Hillary got busted lying AGAIN about some trip she made to Bosnia.

This is not a once off offense, she has a massive history of being caught out flat out lying, exaggerating and faking sincerity, there's countless records of this on the net.

Again as many other people see it too, she is recognised as being a corrupt, lying, power-hungry maniac.

When Clinton had he's affairs she publicly stood by her man and continued too. Some people saw this loyalty in two ways, one as a woman dedicated to making her marriage work and being the stronger person, the other a sign of low self esteem and weakness.

How I've always felt it really was, was a woman with her eye on the prize of becoming the next president, her career has been everything to her, a woman who would do anything, put up with anything, say anything to make sure she win's.

A woman who funnily enough is as dishonest as the man she married (soulmates).

She is a compulsive liar.

what a great asset to have as a President.

Go Hillary bedazzle the ignorant with your bullshit, keep treating the masses as disrespectfully as you have, after all you really don't give a damn about them, it's all about you.

I think some may find this interesting it's from nderf.org

http://www.nderf.org/long_holden_rem.htm
there is an indepth discussion about the study by Dr. Kevin Nelson rem intrusion study on nde's
http://www.nderf.org/longholdenremintrusion.pdf


I didn,t read the other comments because I don,t want influence, which it seems everybody has an opinion of 911.I do not go along with an idea that it was an "inside job" that Bush was somehow involved. I lost two internet friends on account of my freedom of speech when I told them that a video that was being passed around as "proof of a conspiracy" did not convince me in the least.
I figure that we are living in a country that has not seen violence of such magnitude,and my personal opinion is that it, the twin towers was attacked before but was unsuccessful in that try. This plan was 'improved on' through careful planning to use planes from topdown. Osama Bin Laden was said in one instance of what I read, to have been surprised of its total 'meltdown' If memory serves me right he was not expecting such horrific total taking the WTC out in the way they went down. They were supposed to hold up to just about any force,or nature of god; tornadoes etc.. And so to me, to have people tell me that it had to be an inside job.. made my blood boil, how dare they try to impose their conjectured internet propoganda on others, with ease,when so many lost their lives in this tragedy and the magnitude of its implications that we will never know, I even had a friend that I know locally laugh when he saw it on tv play throughout the morning with a comment "wow" cool! as if he was watching candid camera. I was agast and speechless with such casualness. I took it to be ..As long as its not happening on this side of the united states, as you point out Michael,some don,t care as long as its not in the northeast. We feel invincible because nothing ever happens to us as in other countries, but I for one fear that this world is getting smaller and globally integrated how can it be any different with tecnology connected to every country on the globe,eyes and ears via space. And no matter what your own view, To be a true American means to stand together in a frm belief, by your President at such a time in *Unity*, so as the other countries will have the respect, we Demand of ourselves and nothing less, to falter and buy into dark tales;conspiracy theories serves to second guess the greatness of our country. Yes it can be said to always question authority, but in doing so cast doubt in something very indeniable..our inner conscience and intuition of knowing.

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