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michael,

you're certainly brought up some of things that bothered me on Montague's site. that Feb. 22nd event definitely baffled me.

but in those communications, alot of extraordinary things were spoken, and i find them harder and harder to believe. it really made people on that site gullible, or that they no longer feel the need to convince people, and wanted others to just take their words for it.

i read alot about montague in david fontana's book and other online resources- and while i do feel that this post may come off negative and confrontational, but at least you have pointed out the problems.

as for gary schwartz, i still like to give him the benefit of the doubt. i would imagine that in an university environment, he wouldnt have lasted this long if he was just a faker.

This exemplifies why I only have a superficial interest in "paranormal" phenomena. People who get too immersed in this stuff tend to get a little batty.

Alex well I have been immersed in this paranormal stuff and yes you are right there are a lot of people that would put me into the category of batty.

Anytime one reaches out to investigate those areas not accepted as established beliefs; then be prepared to be labeled: batty or worst.

It is called mental comfort and we love to stay in our comfort zone. I think research into the mysteries of life can be the most exciting and also the most frustrating.

We can put a man on the moon and build wonderful killing machines but we still don’t want to do serious research (outside the realm of materialism) into the greatest of all mysteries: consciousness and awareness.

But we will give us time and experiences.

William, I don't think you're batty at all. in fact, i think many of us who commented on this forum are NOT batty at all. and definitely not michael.

there is a comfort zone, but we should always been honest with ourselves, and be critical and open-minded.

>People who get too immersed in this stuff tend to get a little batty.

Perhaps you'll be surprised to hear that I basically agree with this. That's why I limit my involvement mostly to armchair research. People who get too caught up in the paranormal can definitely pay a price.

I think George Hansen's book The Trickster and the Paranormal gives the most comprehensive explanation of why this is so. Paranormal phenomena are marginal or liminal events, and people who become heavily invested in them inevitably become marginalized.

This is not just because we live in a materialistic society. Even in preliterate societies, the shamans and medicine women tend to be marginal social figures.

Michael,

Good points. It's interesting because these insights are ancient. For example, the early Buddhist sutras and Patanjali's Yoga sutra advise people to avoid these things.

Anyone who blames entertainers (and I use that term loosely to include the people who produce modern day cookie-cutter remakes of movies from the '60s and unoriginal programming on TV)for children's bad behaviour doesn't know what they're talking about, whether they're dead or alive. They're just looking for a scapegoat for bad parenting. Instead of blaming everyone else people should start looking at the people whose job it is to make sure the kids behave properly. What should be a requirement, before us artists are censored, is that people should have to take a competance test before being allowed to have kids. It's not my job to raise other people's kids with my books; that's their responsibility.

The reason the ancients urged people to stay off these stuff is to avoid getting trapped by evil spirits or mischievious ones...

Its most lilkley there quite a lot of low level spirits who get their kicks by indulging folks like Veronica and being venerated...

The likes of Randi, Dawkins are most likely to join this group... imagine the havoc that is gonna create...

I'd like to agree with Michael P. because if it wasn,t for him, the whole paranormal thing would just be up for grabs and usually profit to the suckers who beleive every word of phenonmenas that really cannot be disected by the human logic, only hinted at.

Lucy

I was involved in several medium experiments with Gary Schwartz as a test sitter. I must say I found him and his staff to be extremely gracious and professional. He even went out of his way to test again with me upon hearing of a death in my family. Strangely enough, one of the tests "seemed" very evidential to me, but were claimed by another sitter!
Just goes to show you how rife with difficulty these experiments are.

I don't know what the falling out was about, but I hope that Schwartz is on the up and up.

"The reason the ancients urged people to stay off these stuff is to avoid getting trapped by evil spirits or mischievious ones..."

I guess this is the reason given by some ancient traditions, but not the ones I cite. If you read the classical sutras, they maintain that too much involvement in these areas can lead to major delusions. The New Age section in any bookstore seems to confirm these suspicions. In this field, the potential for nonsense is overwhelming and I think it's best to maintain some distance from it. I've met far too many people who get taken in by metaphysical excesses and end up losing their minds. If you don't believe me, then take a trip to the Whole Life Expo.

If those in the afterlife are really concerned about what some 'fraud' is saying about the afterlife, then it seems that they could/should do something to offer convincing proof about what the truth of the afterlife is.

It doesn't make sense, given that so many people over millenia have made claims about the nature of the afterlife, that Moses and Ramses would single out GS.

Sorry, can't buy it.

I've personally had dealings with some of Gary Schwartz' colleagues in the past. In my opinion, Schwartz is the most forward-thinking guy related to afterlife research. Some of his experiments have taken leaps and bounds in proving mediumship. Additionally, Schwartz and Montague were good friends. This stuff is all coming out of his widows mind.

The supernatural is its own greatest enemy. And I agree, somehow it does have a tendency to turn people mad. But, I think this is the challenge we have to face. There needs to be a serious movement AWAY from New Age and "Paranormal" culture (Bigfoot, Loch Ness, etc etc.) otherwise this will always remain in the dark ages.

"There needs to be a serious movement AWAY from New Age and "Paranormal" culture"

Not sure what you mean by paranormal culture but new age culture I did a “lot” of research on in the 90's and although they tend to have somewhat of a better understanding of what I believe is closer to realty I found that this new age culture can be as fixed on their beliefs and just as susceptible to new age dogma as traditional religion.

Michael

“Paranormal phenomena are marginal or liminal events, and people who become heavily invested in them inevitably become marginalized”

I think the case could be made that if we become too heavily invested in the paranormal we fail to be in this world. Maybe we not supposed to be of the world (materialism rules the day) but too much emphasis on the paranormal we lose sight of being in the world and lose opportunities to learn.

Had a friend in Australia and she could not pass a psychic without a reading and they told her pretty much what I suspect thought she wanted to hear. And then of course collected her money. There appeared to be a lot of psychics in malls.

“Even in preliterate societies, the shamans and medicine women tend to be marginal social figures.”

I could have sworn I posted this before but cannot find it now. Anyhow don’t understand shamans becoming marginal figures in their society. I thought they were the very one’s called when problems arise and instead of being marginal they were the center of society.

Would a Gary Swartz or a Dean Radin of IONS be considered marginal figures? Dean Radin stated he took up research into the paranormal because of the great challenge involved. Swartz had a girlfriend that wondered if her father survived death.

In my opinion this most problem of mediumship research is to find the limits of the subconsciousness. It is very hard to find a good experimental setup, which can absolutely rule out cold reading techniques. I have here in Germany some mental magican, for a non magician it is absolute fascinating, what are able to read from person face or behaviour, even without eyes. The published recently studies from G.S. (2007) have an improved study design, but the did not absolutely rule out cold reading.The mediums were given the first names of the discarnates. First names are not uniformly distributed across years, and the first name could give some clue to the age of the person. What do famous mental magicians, who are open minded, think about the informations gained by genuine mediums?

I was watching bs pen and teller show usually I would not listen to closed-minded skeptics about issues of our world however I always like to see what there answer is. There were talking about funerals and how much money they cost they were right about Albert Einstein equation e equals mc square how energy can be created but not destroyed but that has nothing to do with our energy.

I am sorry for the writing mistakes due to failure of my computer.

>don’t understand shamans becoming marginal figures in their society.

Hansen's book goes into detail on this. Shamans certainly do serve an important social function, but at the same time they are outside the norms of their society. They may engage in ordinarily unacceptable behavior like crossdressing, homosexuality, or copraphilia. Initiates into shamanism may be selected from social outcasts like epileptics, the handicapped, or the deformed.

>What do famous mental magicians, who are open minded, think about the informations gained by genuine mediums?

Well, since we're speaking of George Hansen, here's his overview on the subject of magicians and psi.

William wrote
"Not sure what you mean by paranormal culture"

The way a topic like near death experiences may be featured on the same radio show, web-site, TV program or book which also seriously discusses subjects like the Yeti, reptilian aliens, "orbs" in photographs (read: dust-particles) and the ever stubborn to kill Loch Ness monster, which was debunked years ago.

Society will never take survival research seriously so long as it remains a subject mixed in with the believe-anything paranormal crowd. I was explaining how I think people need to distance themselves from such a damaging community.

It's not quite as straightforward as it looks. Those names were given unprompted by two different mediums in the same week, not just Veronica herself. It could be telepathy, mischievous spirits etc. but there is definitely some sort of paranormality involved. It might not have been too wise posting it on the website though.....

hey all,
MOntague Keen's site had a new message talking about feb 22nd. however, i dont find the answer convincing- and that the answer is rather retro-fitted.

oh i would like to believe these words, but the critical side of me just find it too convenient.

'the dishonest one must be silenced first...'

what do we know, really?

Again that Feb 22nd prediction was made independently by 3 unconnected sources in different countries - that's why it was posted on the website with such flare and confidence. That explanation posted yesterday was given shortly after Feb 22nd and was not dreamed up in response to this blog.

Mickey D wrote,

>That explanation posted yesterday was given shortly after Feb 22nd and was not dreamed up in response to this blog.

The Sept. 2 message itself, though, does seem to be a reaction to my post. Some excerpts:

>It surprises you when you hear of people who say they read our website and see only what they wish to see because they refuse to accept that which does not fit in with their lifestyle etc.

What nonsense this is. "Because it does not fit in with their lifestyle." How about, because it is patently inane?

>You stated many times you do not put our scientific projects on the website for obvious reasons.

If the level of science in these projects is indicated by the claim that nuclear testing has knocked the earth off balance and caused global warming, then I can indeed see "obvious reasons" for not posting this info. In any case, you can't refuse to publish your data and then complain when people say there are no data.

>They refer to the 22nd Feb. and say nothing happened, well, we know different, and you wrote a little about it and they failed completely to grasp it. As you know we had to remove several layers between the Spirit World and the Earth and the final one was removed on the 22nd Feb., consequently the Spiritworld has never been closer to Earth ever in the history of Man.

I hereby predict that on Sept. 4, 2007, the cosmic forces will be aligned more perfectly than ever before. Prove me wrong.

Anyone can make "predictions" of this sort.

The same message begins with this material:

>I watched you look at your calendar and note it was the 1st of September and you said out loud, "Monty it is the 1st of Sept, what have you got in store for me?" You went to the study to look at your emails and you were SPEECHLESS!!! There was information there you could never ever have dreamed of and yes I observed your gratitude and delight.

All of which would be evidential if it were coming through a medium. But remember, Veronica Keen is writing these messages herself. And it does not take psi abilities to write down what you did yesterday.

MickeyD also wrote,

>that Feb 22nd prediction was made independently by 3 unconnected sources in different countries

How do we know these sources are unconnected? In an age of email and long-distance phone calls, it matters not at all if they are located in different countries. M. Lamar Keene, in The Psychic Mafia, claimed that phony psychics share info about clients with each other all the time. What precautions, if any, have been taken to prevent fraud in this case?

Oh Michael you hardnosed skeptic you!

I've been following these messages for months now and my going theory is subconscious invention on Veronica's part too. Anyway if we're wrong it's going to be delightful, since Spirit are promising week after week that salvation is just around the corner. I must say I do rather wonder why all those dead people had to wait for Montague to join them before they could get started saving the world.

Veronica Keen wrote:

"As you know we had to remove several layers between the Spirit World and the Earth and the final one was removed on the 22nd Feb."

Now even the metaphysical part is becoming nonsense.

If there are layers between dimensions, like an onion (something I've read a lot of literature regards) then it's not something you "remove" pieces of because they're fundamental parts of the universe. I'm sure even our buddy "William" from the Circle of the Silver Cord would agree on this.

It would be like saying: "I just cut out a piece of the sky to bring us closer to the moon." Considering what a bumbling plan this is, I wonder if Cobra Commander is the guy in charge of the twelve?

Of course, I don't know anything (nobody does) about this, but logically it just seems really hokey.

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