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Bruce,

I had commented on the NDE in Michael's last post. Here's the comment for you:

AOD,

I watched the video, thank you! He basically validates the Nanci Danison approach (i.e., Grof's Cosmic Game approach). That is, our actions have no true moral content and all returns to Source. However, he did identify being in a sea of beingS, plural, so perhaps it is not exactly the same.

What I find interesting is that in neither case did the experiencer go into cardiac arrest. It's debatable whether they "died" at all.

We do have a kind of bifurcation of NDEs with respect to this issue. Let's call them Type I and Type II for now. In Type I NDEs, the experiencer has a life review that emphasizes the moral content of their lives and the meaningfulness of living Love. In Type II, our lives are called a stage play, a game, etc., and their moral importance is more or less dismissed. In the video AOD linked to, the experiencer literally says that a serial killer is not really "bad." He says that good and bad don't exist.

I do not think the latter view is entirely without merit, though I think that experiencers get a somewhat limited or incorrect takeaway. After all, Danison, the video experiencer, and Grof are all trying to relay what they see as Truth and seem to think that Truth is important. But if there were *no* values, then there would be no point in trying to convey the truth instead of falsehood (and the video experiencer was quite insistent and passionate). I think there is an internal contradiction in there.

I think the takeaway, so to speak, is limited in that they see that the Universe does a perfect job of making lemonade out of lemons, and things are all right in the end. I agree with that. But the idea that life is *just* a stage play with no moral content. Nope, don't agree.

"If you don't go that route, you are left with a crude monism in which you call everything "consciousness" just because "consciousness" sounds kinda cool."

Matt, I hear what you're saying, but that would be exactly my gripe against the way information theorists use the word "information."

If it's a choice between over-using one or the other, I'll choose "consciousness" because it refers to a *living* thing rather than a dead one.

Bottom line: I think life/consciousness/love is central to both the universe and my own being, not some abstract, bloodless, nebulous, concept like "information."

I've yet to hear someone emerge from a deep mystical experience and say: "Wow. Now I understand! It's all about information!"

I trust what emerges from NDE's and similar revelations over the conjectures and intellectual meanderings of theorists.

For me, the undue focus on "information" is closely related to an obsession with matter. And that's because in its normal use "information" is always associated with some form of physical substrate.

The same can't be said of consciousness. As I see it, focusing on consciousness is a clear break from the old paradigm; obsessing on information is some half-way point for those haven't fully made the transition.

Yes -- I have strong feelings about this:

Information has become a false god in our era. (Inseparable from matter, no matter how you hard you try to distinguish the two.)

Consciousness, on the other hand, is, plain and simple, sacred.

I want to change one thing in my last post. Change this:

"obsessing on information is some half-way point for those haven't fully made the transition."

to this:

"obsessing on information is some half-way compromise for when we're not ready to fully make the transition."

I don't mean to separate myself from anyone else. The reason I get heated up about this is that at some level I'm frustrated by my own addiction to thoughts and concepts. (AKA information.) I wish I could more consistently embrace life itself.

Bruce,

||If it's a choice between over-using one or the other, I'll choose "consciousness" because it refers to a *living* thing rather than a dead one.||

You're absolutely right: "information" has a connotation that works against it in this context. I think we can achieve a proper orientation if we go with Leibniz's concept of "entelechies" as expressed in the Monadology. (I may write about this in a future guest post if Michael permits.)

Bringing Leibniz's worldview up to date might just please Michael, you, Art, me, and some other commenters here!

||Bottom line: I think life/consciousness/love is central to both the universe and my own being, not some abstract, bloodless, nebulous, concept like "information."||

I agree. I merely counsel against allowing the connotation of "information" get in the way of accessing the insights provided by those who write about it.

||I've yet to hear someone emerge from a deep mystical experience and say: "Wow. Now I understand! It's all about information!"||

Haha, very true. I think "information" is more about explaining the ground of the physical universe and other aspects of a posteriori reality.

||I trust what emerges from NDE's and similar revelations over the conjectures and intellectual meanderings of theorists.||

I don't think they are at odds. Or rather, we need to make the theory so that it is not at odds with the data points (so to speak!). Connecting the dots for unified picture that connects the physical and spiritual is important, I believe.

@Bruce: Then try simple mindfulness meditation such as gardening; anything that involves slow simple movement. Walking is excellent. And let the sway of the movement lull you into a kind of daydream state. That's when the thoughts turn off and the deeper awareness/intuition comes to the fore.

Agree totally with you ' Bruce'.

I feel with the guy in 'Amos's NDE (really should look up his name), had a shortened experience so to speak. I also feel he is one of the few who managed to control his experience somewhat- i.e. he wanted to look down on the planet, and so thats where he ended up.

What I took from his NDE, is that we can control whatever loop we have. If you expect to see a tunnel, people etc., then thats what you will get. Our thoughts are translated into exact terms there.

As to morality, I just don't think he explored those issues, rather that he came to understand that all suffering didn't matter in the end, in the sense that life is only a stage play and no one is hurt or dies but we live forever. But I have no doubt that we each are accountable for out behaviour all the same, as those who have life reviews constantly refer to this.

I also find it interesting that he mentions how all his experiences were in his head, rather than out there. I don't really mention the chats I have with my deceased father. But one day I asked him what 'level' he was on as he seemed powerful-turning lights on in my room for example one night.

He replied- " There are not clear levels as such, but I experience everything in my mind, rather than seeing it out there". I said, "Isn't that weird". And he said "no, it's just the same, I'm there, it's no different".

I don't mention many conversations I have with him, as I know people will find these even harder to believe. And for me, I'm also not sure if they are correct as I have no means of validating them. So I was so excited to hear the experience of the guy in 'Amos's video, as it is what I heard. Lyn :)

I have not read Laszlo and Peake's book so I have been reluctant to comment about it. Perhaps a book like this at times is interesting as a diversion but, for me, sometimes very difficult to follow (as are some of these comments) because, when you think about what is written, no meaningful real information is provided. These books provide a lot of pseudo-intellectual, esoteric ideas dressed-up in scientific jargon and all written without any real evidence to support what they say. It is for the most part conjecture or fantasy of one or, in this case, two individuals. They provide interesting ideas but not much beyond that.

I might do as well espousing an 'Expanding Earth Theory' to explain continental drift and distribution of plant fossils in the artic regions.

Information as a basis of or related in someway to a spiritual reality or reality in general is beginning to sound to me to be like a genetic code of a metaphysical world. Maybe those entrenched in physicality can't break themselves away from a need to structure the spirit world in mechanical concepts. But I think that the world of consciousness is of a different ilk and not reducible to 0s or 1s. Perhaps it is beyond our ken. - AOD

Yes, I know. It's arctic! Once I hit that 'post' key---that's it! There is no going back. - AOD

Lyn :)
I think that one's behavior during an incarnation may portend the need for further enlightenment; so one perhaps is 'accountable' for behaviors in this or any incarnation. I don't think that accountability is necessarily punishment however, although it may seem like it when one is in its midst. It's all part of growing in knowledge and love toward the godhead or source.

Your chats with your deceased father are interesting and revealing when he says that". . . everything is in my mind, rather than seeing it out there." and his response to your questioning about the weirdness of it all he said, "No, it's just the same, I'm there, it's no different." His simple explanation rings true to me and that any detailed (scientific) explanation is probably beyond his understanding.

When some spirits were questioned about the reality they were in, they often demurred saying something to the effect that either they were not allowed to tell of it, or they would not mar God's creation by trying to describe it. Probably they did not become omniscient after they transitioned to spirit and didn't really know the explanation of the reality they were in any more than we could fully explain the reality we are in. - AOD

@Lynn: "I don't really mention the chats I have with my deceased father."

I wish you would. :)

Matt, thanks for the reply to my comments on information theory. We seem to share some common ground there.

As to your distinction between Type I and Type II NDEs, I strongly disagree:

"But the idea that life is *just* a stage play with no moral content. Nope, don't agree."

If the focus of morality is right and wrong, then you're correct -- Grof, Danison, and Rich Kelly aren't interested in it.

But if morality is about growth, meeting challenges, taking responsibility for oneself, a deep concern with how we treat others, and reaching for love -- well, then clearly these people embrace the subject. (That's true for Grof and Danison, anyway -- I've had little exposure to Rich Kelly.)

AOD wrote,

||Information as a basis of or related in someway to a spiritual reality or reality in general is beginning to sound to me to be like a genetic code of a metaphysical world.||

I think it's more about explaining the physical world. Of course, the explanation needs to be compatible with spiritual reality.

||Maybe those entrenched in physicality can't break themselves away from a need to structure the spirit world in mechanical concepts. But I think that the world of consciousness is of a different ilk and not reducible to 0s or 1s.||

Yeah, we need to get beyond this concept of "information"--clearly it's breeding many a misconception.

I do believe there is a summer lands of sorts most people find themselves in after death. And that it may be similarly maintained as on earth by consensus of agreement. As most people would find it difficult not having a permanence 'out there' that they are accustomed to.

But I suspect as you advance, rather than discreet levels as such, there are more individual 'steps' that people reach. I know my deceased father hinted at this, that he no longer has a need to 'see' a world out there. He died some nine years ago, and to be honest, this makes sense to me . Cheers.

Here's a series of an old documentaries on reincarnation if anyone wants to peruse, in which past lives are tracked to their countries of origin, to trace the lives of people they purport to once have been.

The first in particular seem very dated - there are 11 in all and each is about 10 minutes long. In video #2, Cynthia is followed to France as she accurately navigates a driver through the French countryside to Chateaus and Castles she frequented in the past.

# 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HayY1yyXnn0

#2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOVpFznmoTs

Cheers Lyn.

Not entirely sure why it says - banned? :) Lyn.

Bruce wrote,

||But if morality is about growth, meeting challenges, taking responsibility for oneself, a deep concern with how we treat others, and reaching for love -- well, then clearly these people embrace the subject.||

If that is the case, then there is no disagreement!

"If that is the case, then there is no disagreement!"

Excellent, Matt.

There are some words (like "God" and "should") I use sparingly. "Morality" is one I avoid altogether. Better to be more specific.

Lynn, I've seen those reincarnation videos before. They're fantastic!

One of the commenters said:

"Some of the most pointed and detailed proof of reincarnation I have ever seen."

I agree completely. Can't believe this guy's work isn't better known.

Someone mentioned the telegraph machine that was in Reykjavik at the time of the fire, I was wondering if there's evidence in the newspaper the Society member was the editor of for references to the fire, or if his newspaper had access to the telegraph machine? The editor's name was Björn Jonsson who later became Iceland's prime minister, and his newspaper was called Ísafold.

https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/mediums/Perfect%20case.pdf

Also, was this telegraph machine in regular use or was it something experimental that only a few messages were coming through on? I just ask because on Wikipedia it says:

"The first telegraph cable connecting Iceland to Europe was shored in Seyðisfjörður in 1906, making it a hub for international telecommunications well past the middle of last century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sey%C3%B0isfj%C3%B6r%C3%B0ur

I think this is a pretty good case though, the way they got the information about Mr. Jensen, I think it would be hard to get that much information in that little time about an obscure dead man in Copenhagen just near where the fire started.

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