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There is little difference in knowledge gain or in tactile experience between a lucid dream and an earthbound OBE.

Get thee to the astral and give me a call, then we will have something of value worth discussing.

I have been dreaming about my mother a lot lately. She died 27 years ago. Now my father is 90, and has been deteriorating fast during the last year. So presumably I'm assuming he is going to die soon, and am remembering her because of that. I'd prefer to think that maybe she really is hanging around right now, waiting to greet him, but considering his age and health the first explanation is probably more plausible.

Michael,

Great post!

||For my part, I've often had dreams that involve a sort of levitation. Sometimes I dream that by concentrating very hard, I'm able to lift myself off the ground and float up to the ceiling. Amusingly, I tend to bob up and down, lightly bouncing off the ceiling, while exploring the room from that vantage point. I often find myself impressed at how easy it is to do this, and I wonder why it ever seemed difficult.||

This is exactly my experience (except for hitting the ceiling). It actually does take a bit of effort/practice, indicating there is a real "physics" of sorts at work in the Astral.

The point of difference I have is that my dreams don't seem garbled to me, or misremembered. What I think *does* happen, however, is that we can easily impose our own sensory and social templates on Astral experiences, so one thing may be happening while we think it is another.

There is speculation that during dreaming sleep people may travel out of the body into a spiritual realm. It has long been observed that many, probably all, mammals dream and that REM sleep is a common phenomenon. https://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/dreaming.html . Does this mean that rats, cats and dogs also travel out of the body or into a spiritual realm when they dream? This doesn't seem reasonable to me, and this appears to put some question to the speculations about OBEs, etc. Dreaming must have some common basically biological function in brain neurology, consolidating memories, reorganizing neural nets, etc.

However, paranormal aspects of dreaming like precognition and spirit communication still do seem to exist. I think this is probably peculiar to humans - the human soul and unconscious mind utilizing the biological dreaming mechanism for their own purposes.

I have the same kinds of dreams and the same thoughts about them; even the idea that the being back at school dream was somehow related to having just undergone a learning experience in the astral. I dunno.

I have had full fledged OBEs too - the vibration/electrical current/rushing wind sensations and then clear, quite conscious, experience of actually leaving and looking back at the physical body and veridical content while "out of body".

I would say the "full fledged" OBE is very distinguishable from the dreams. That said, it's just my own personal experience of things that makes me create that demarcation. It's possible that there are different orders of OBEs; some of which occur less consciously. Perhaps it matters how the OBE initiates. My full fledged OBEs were, except the first couple of times or so, deliberately induced, and kicked off on the edge of sleep or the edge of waking. Could be that if they occur after we are already asleep that it is as you are hypothesizing.

BTW....Happy New Year!

It is strange how everyone seems to dream of flying. Jane Roberts' Seth spoke of sleeping and dreaming quite a bit. According to Seth, we are in an alternate reality, and we must be careful not to stay in that reality too long - strange! He even went so far as to say that we shouldn't sleep for long periods of time, say seven or eight hours, but should make ourselves wake up in the middle of that, sleeping for four hours or so, waking up for awhile, and then going back to sleep for another four hours.

My 'flying' dreams tend to involve something more like extreme leaping. I find myself jumping higher and higher and then manage to 'hold' myself at a certain height before returning to the ground. Similarly, it's accompanied by the thought, "Wow, I can't believe I never realized how easy this is." Like controlling gravity is the most natural thing in the world...

One theory of dreaming based in physics is that it (dreaming) allows for mental time travel, both to the past (in terms of retro-causality) and the future (in terms of pre-cognition/clairvoyance). I am borrowing this idea (and his ideas on non-locality and spooky action at a distance a la Einstein's EPR effect) from Antoine Suarez, a physicist with a modest presence on several You Tube presentations.

I remember reading one child's NDE story, maybe in Melvin Morse's book about children's NDEs(?) where the little boy said "you can double jump there! Double Jump!" That sounds like what you are describing in the bouncy dream? I have had a similar dream by the way, where I was almost weightless and could skim along and just sort of jump and go flying down a whole flight of stairs. It was an amazing dream.

Read a great story on my Retire Early message board today about a child's ADC/DBV experience. It's a neat story, For your enjoyment.... (copied and pasted)...
--------------
HMALetter shares,
“Quite interesting. Recently a friend's uncle passed, he was in his late 70's. He died at home according to his wishes.

A woman's three year-old daughter was by her side in the room after he passed. She started to say "What are you doing up there Uncle Virg?" Everyone in the room was a bit startled, wondering what this little girl was talking about.

She then said "Uncle Virg is floating around, smiling at me".

All of these wonderful people were staring at each other wondering why she would say that. None of them are religious, although all are fantastic people. But their faces had that WTF moment as this innocent girl kept telling them what Uncle Virg was doing.

This is as close to an experience like this as I've ever been, although I have been at the side of two people when they passed. The stories from many that have had NDE's are most always very similar. Some you can explain away as the effects of medication, coming out of comas, whatever.

But there is no way to explain this little girl's reaction when she was talking to Uncle Virg after he passed, and never once looking at his body, but upwards. Perhaps from the mouthes of babes comes the startling truth."

"I find that I often have dreams involving travel by plane, train, or auto."

Michael I don't know how au fait you are with Masonic lore but accordin' t'their more esoteric beliefs when a mason snuffs it they end up in a sort o' protective citadel or space ship like structure either on or in orbit round a planet in the Sirius system [if memory serves].

But y'find much the same idea in Hindu references t'vimanas where they're brought into existence an' sustained by the divine will o' spiritu'ly superior beings as opposed t'merely manufactured by technology.

[A lot o' say Druid style memory trainin' where they'd learn t' ment'ly construct these huge Stonehengesque edifices for storin' data were supposedly less about the data an' more about sustainin' these structures in Eternity for Eternity].

The idea bein' when we black out we supposedly don't actu'ly lose consciousness at all but enter this numbed state where we can't access any o' our usual ref'rence points [somethin' I've person'ly verified t'me own satisfaction].

But when we snuff it things supposedly get even worse because we don't have the luxury o' bein' able t'come to an' reboot 'r fixed ref'rence points an' unless we've had suitable trainin' the pressure o' the void becomes too great for us t'withstand makin' us gradu'ly descend in t'this bewildered senile like state where we find it harder an' harder t'remember who we are/were or that we even exist.

So the likes o' Heaven etc accordin' t'this model're supposedly devices t'protect us until we can develop this ability.

Anyway if there's anythin' to any o' this then when y'dream y'aboard some vessel or other it may well be y'gettin' precisely the sort o' preparation or trainin' I'm refer'in' to.

no one proffered fearlessly "I would say the "full fledged" OBE is very distinguishable from the dreams."
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Best of luck making that case in front of lucid dreamers. Albeit true as it is.

Does this mean that rats, cats and dogs also travel out of the body or into a spiritual realm when they dream? This doesn't seem reasonable to me, and this appears to put some question to the speculations about OBEs...

I do not know if that's so, but I think that the most plausible is that all sentient beings have spirit in some way, not just humans. For example, we can imagine that as living beings become more conscious and self-conscious, they increased relations with the astral realm, allowing phenomena such as apparitions, possessions, etc.

I experience two types of dream levitation. One involves flapping my arms as if they are wings - but I can only get up to about twenty feet max, usually less. The other type involves a long jump - managing better than world record jumps pretty easily.

Unfortunately, I also have "need to go to the toilet" dreams -I find an astral toilet somewhere, and go, but I still eventually wake up and have to go physically. Dreams of peeing just don't seem to do the job.

Heh. I've noticed that there's often a traumatic shock that stuns me awake, such as being shot, or being consumed by a tsunami, or falling from a great height. Reluctance to return to the "surly bonds of earth" after a nice evening in the astral, perhaps?

Something that makes me think we do engage in some sort of astral travel while we sleep and dream - albeit not the full fledged OBE - is precognitive dreams. Where else would precognitive dream information come from if we are not, at least mentally, moving beyond our normal confines when we are asleep.

I have been following Bruce's advice lately and am recording my dreams, no matter how trivial, and I have to say the results are impressive. There appears to be a lot of precognitive content - though it is bizarre in its apparent insignificance and randomness.

For example, a week or so ago (during the spell of artic weather) I had a dream about either a train or bus station. It was jammed full of people just aimlessly wandering about with nothing to do. Then it focused on toilets backing up in the restroom because so many people were using the facilities (this part of the dream was actually fairly grotesque - that is even the word I used). I woke up and made a note, thinking to myself that the dream was truly weird. That night, on the news (either FOX or CNN - can't remember), they covered the bad weather situation and they interviewed some people stuck in a Chicago train station or on the trains for more than 24 hours because rail travel had been cancelled. Sure enough, one of the guys was talking about how the restroom facilities were "really gross" with all the people having to use them beyond there designed intake parameters.

Bruce Moen ("Afterlife Journeys" series)had much to inform concerning that state of conciousness between wake and sleep and the ultimate purposefulness of his experience - leading those who have passed, but not "crossed over" to where they need to be.
If you have the time or inclination, you may very much enjoy exploring his writings and his explorations.
Dreams - what a concept.
Thanks.

Hey Michael have you heard about the book "The Afterlife of Billy Fingers" by Annie Kagan? I was wondering if you had heard about it and what do you think? Is it something I should make an effort to acquire? I checked it out a little bit and it looks sort of interesting?

I really enjoyed Stop Worrying there probably is an afterlife. Thanks for that heads up.

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