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Michael,

Yes yes yes. Good stuff.

This and Beneviste's experiment and things like them are the thin edge of the wedge that could get psi and other paranormal phenomena recognized at last, since they are just as "strange" as other things being denied because of their strangeness.


"an understanding that sees molecules as essentially information"

Just to clarify my own position, I have no problem with a statement like that. In fact, I rather like it, because it says that molecules are not, ultimately, solid "things," but rather something less tangible, call it information or whatever you will.

But the question then has to be answered, where does that information reside? What generates it?

And that's where consciousness comes in. It makes more sense to me to say that consciousness gives rise to information, than the reverse.

What I'm saying is in line with what NDErs tell us, who, over the years, have been one of our main sources of insight on this blog. I notice that neither of you, Michael or Matt, have been including them in your discussion of this theory. And that's probably because NDErs don't have revelations about the universe arising from data, nor do they liken the cosmos to a massive computer.

Instead, they speak of an ultimate source--the Light--that is a conscious, living, entity.

They didn't teleport DNA, that article is making wild claims about what the paper actually says.

From the actual data section:

"EMS are then recorded from each tube. Now also the tube containing water
emits EMS, at the dilutions corresponding to those positive for EMS in the original DNA tube[..]
The following controls were found to suppress the EMS transmission in the water tube:

- Time of exposure of the two tubes less than 16 −18 hrs
- No coil
- Generator of magnetic field turned off
- Frequency of excitation < 7 Hz"

They claimed that putting a vial of DNA and a vial of water in an EM coil and generating a field, would result in the water vial having an EM signature similar to the input DNA. They then tested putting base chemicals for the synthesis of DNA in the water vial and found that it would largely take the shape of the DNA from the non-water vial.

"It was shown clearly that the water
nanostructures and their electromagnetic resonance can faithfully perpetuate DNA information."

If there's a claim about teleporting atoms, its in the quantum section. I'm not qualified to comment on that part, but it looks overall like a case of either 1) Contamination (suggested on the comments of the news article) or 2) Water memory.

The original DNA is still in the original tube.

I wonder if there is some 'morphic field' angle to this as per Rupert Sheldrake's theories?

I think a similar effect releated to the "memory of water" was also studied in this research:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2001/mar/15/technology2

Pretty interesting but being a scientific taboo gets almost no funding for reasearch :(

Please can someone make it a bit simpler and explain exactly what this means. Thankyou.

@Marco
It's my understanding that the taboo for water memory arose from when Benveniste's claim was tested by a Randi-backed crew with blinding procedures, they failed to produce significant results. I also recall reading another lab mentioned replicating Benveniste, but that too failed to show up under blinded conditions. No amount of replication under the conditions this paper used will produce any benefit; they're the same conditions Benveniste and people who replicated his work found the effect under, only using a virus instead of a histamine.

I've seen a skeptic reference that filtering to 120mm using a 100mm then a 20mm strainer somehow puts doubt on their experimental ability; I'm not sure if this is a legitimate concern or a silly one. Contamination also seems to be the obvious answer, and it was not accounted for.

Maybe viruses are more prominent than Benveniste's histamines, since a base component of living things (over raw chemicals) is the need to recombine oneself under adverse conditions?

These researchers need to do a "dry run" (1-3 passes?) under controlled and blinded conditions, such as asking a colleague to take a look at four samples (one is the virus with no EM field, one is the water with no EM field, one is the virus with EM field treatment, and one is the water with EM field + base chemical treatment) and ask if they notice anything strange. I imagine that would be sufficient to present a well designed, controlled, and blinded test for the subject, and they could easily pass it off as a cell growth or cell cloning experiment which would circumvent the taboo completely.

To ./:

We have two nearby but separate tubes: one containing highly diluted DNA and the other contains pure water. We subject the tubes to a weak electromagnetic field. Then after a while DNA is detected in the water tube having the same DNA sequence as the other tube. The interpretation of this experiment may be conventional, that is, DNA in the first tube has been contaminated the other tube, or revolutionary, ie somehow the information of DNA of the first tube has been transferred to the second tube, which have implications for the chemistry and homeopathy. Would have to repeat the experiment to find out which is the correct interpretation.

Juan,
Thankyou, you are most kind.

The pressure from the materialist status quo to produce studies that fail to replicate the same results Luc Montagnier observed will be enormous.
Teleporting DNA molecules? Water with a 'memory'? It looks too much like magic... even witchcraft. It just can't be true.

Wait a minute! Aren't those materialists the same the folks who believe that the universe was created out of nothing, by nothing?

*sigh*

Nicely put, as usual, Rabbitdawg!

I agree!

Hi.
I've seen tonight a report on the catastrophic effects of the asteroid that hit he Earth 65 millions years ago, wiping out every form of life . If there really were 5 Kms waves surfing the planet more than one time, how could life had been re-installed on planet? This "DNA diluition" explains why the planet teems with life again!

I don't think the asteroid wiped out all life, just larger land-based life forms. Smaller land animals (including early mammals) survived, as did insects. Many forms of sea life also came through unscathed.

@RabbitDawg
"Nothing" for physicists has been redefined from the dictionary definition. For them, "nothing" seems to include all required materials, which is further redefined as they discover the required materials.

Mmmm, not sure about Luc Montagnier. He appears to have lost his critical edge and now entertains strange ideas like claiming healthy people can clear HIV infection (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT8yqebsOI4).

This is considered absurd by the vast majority of researchers / clinicians in the field. I would take these claims with a similar sized pinch of salt (transmitted electromagnetically of course.....)

@Michael Duggan
Didn't he also discover a link between HIV and AIDS, which is why he has a prize? Evidently being strange and looking at crazy angles does occasionally come up with something useful.

But yes, without being put under blinding we can't really infer much.

....but also leads to investigating blind alleys, especially when you're past your intellectual prime.

Sure.

Some would argue that psychial, parapsychological, and NDE research were blind alleys too.

Sorry, but almost certainly this will *at best* turn out to be a case of contamination. DNA/PCR are what I used to work with. It is VERY easy to go wrong in this sort of situation. There was a famous case in my field of plant research where startling PCR results were in play for over a year before it was discovered that insects were spreading trace amounts of plant material around. In any case, caution is well advised before the expt is reproduced elsewhere.

DNA contamination... Been there, done that!

For anyone who doubts the social and professional pressure of the reductionist-materialist mentality within the world of mainstream science, Luc Montagnier moved to China's Jiaotong University to continue his research so he could, in his words, "escape intellectual terror".

These days, China is much more tolerant of religion than it was during the Mao Zedong (Tse-tung) days, but at the government and university level it is still decidedly atheist. However, the intelligentsia there obviously is eager and unafraid to think - here's that hoary phrase - outside of the box.

Hmmm, I wonder where tomorrow's innovation will come from...

Umm, maybe China?

They don't seem as opposed to psi there, do they?

I have the impression that both China and Japan are generally more open to psi than Western academia. Probably this is because of the long history of Asian medicine, with its assumptions about mysterious energy systems like chi.

OT but relevant, indirectly, to concerns of this site is this article on sudden savant syndrome: Rare cases where a trauma unleashes a new personality and/or new abilities. Where did they come from? (One interviewee suggests that it was like when you whacked an old TV to clear away the fuzz and static. Hmmm ...)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9571922/Is-there-a-savant-inside-all-of-us.html

If someone could check out either New Scientist, or Scientific American, (I can't remember which), but there is an article in this month's issue about quantum entanglement.

It just got weirder. Scientists have managed to entangle two particles that are not only seperated by distance, they are seperated by time - one is affecting the other at a different point in time - freaky!

Thanks. Quantum world just gets weirder and weirder.

I remember, when one scientist was asked about quantum findings and eastern philosophy, he replied that he didnt know what these 'mystical types' were on about.

Apparantly, although science is discovering that the quantum world is very, very weird, it is 'still a wholly physical process'.

I think the good professor may be missing the point, that the quantum world is calling into question our assumptions as to exactly *what* the physical is.

Interesting stuff from New Scientist. To harp again on my recurring theme, these experimental results could make sense if photons are basically just bits of information, and if a Cosmic CPU is performing behind-the-scenes calculations at all times.

In that case, the calculation performed for Photon 4 would take into account the information represented by Photon 1, even though Photon 1 no longer physically exists. It would be like a calculator retaining a figure in its memory even if the figure has been subtracted out of the currently displayed sum. The figure can still be recalled if necessary to perform a new calculation.

Alternatively, the Cosmic CPU uses the information represented by Photons 2 and 3 to recalculate the value of Photon 1, even though Photon 1 no longer exists.

However you look at it, it should be clear that photons are behaving more like information than like tiny physical objects.

Incidentally, if you read the comments thread of the NS article, you find people talking about particles traveling forward in time and backward in time. To the extent that this bi-directional travel may be a reality, it also suggests a quality we find in mathematical equations, which can be run forward or backward. (For instance, e=mc² is equivalent to mc²=e .)

Douglas - Who good time to get my electronic voice phenomenon black box out again.

Last time i did i had an entity called Sarfee
calling me!

Another evidence for the hypothesis that the universe is information? Check it!

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/429561/the-measurement-that-would-reveal-the-universe-as/

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