I really enjoyed Michael Tymn's last book about life after death, The Articulate Dead, and have been very much looking forward to his newest effort, The Afterlife Revealed. It did not disappoint.
Tymn sets the stage in the preface, when he notes that at age 75, with some health worries, he is aware of his own mortality. But, he writes, "I think I can honestly say I do not significantly fear the idea of death itself. In fact, I find it somewhat exciting." While happy to live in the present, he sees knowledge of the afterlife as a way of simultaneously "living in eternity." He quotes philosopher Alice Bailey:
We can live in the consciousness of immortality, and it will give an added coloring and beauty to life. We can foster the awareness of our future transition, and live with the expectation of its wonder. Death thus faced, and regarded as a prelude to further living experience, takes on a different meaning.
Meanwhile, Tymn observes, "today's hedonistic materialism is a result of a loss of spiritual values, especially a lack of belief in the survival of consciousness after death." I think there's a lot of truth in this, although the sheer abundance of material goods available in our world is another large factor. It's perhaps inevitable that people with access to unprecedented luxuries would become somewhat hedonistic, even if they happened to retain a belief in a spiritual dimension.
Of course, the big question is whether there is good evidence for an afterlife. As Tymn observes in a brief overview of conventional religious beliefs, acceptance of an afterlife on faith isn't very comforting to the modern mind, especially when the afterlife is envisioned as either "a humdrum Heaven or a horrific Hell." And why are revelations in ancient books considered sacrosanct, while more recent revelations of a similar character are dismissed as fraudulent, delusional, or demonic?
This, by the way, is my main objection to Christian writers like Dinesh D'Sousa and Roy AbrahamVarghese, who defend the afterlife on the basis of Judeo-Christian scripture and a highly selective reading of contemporary evidence, limited mainly to near-death experiences. Why are mediumship, reincarnation memories, hauntings, etc. disregarded by these authors? Whatever their rationalizations, the real reason seems to be that such phenomena contradict Biblical teachings or are prohibited by Biblical injunctions. But an open-minded investigator would look at all the evidence, and not be bound by ancient taboos.
Tymn begins the main part of The Afterlife Revealed with a brief history of Spiritualism, which includes famous cases like the Fox sisters and Emanuel Swedenborg, as well as such less familiar names as George T. Dexter, Grace Rosher, and John Scott. Part of the book's appeal is the presentation of cases that even many aficionados may not have read about. Tymn's encyclopedic knowledge of afterlife research allows him to draw on material that more casual researchers have never heard of.
The book proceeds to examine the dying process and its aftermath in step-by-step, chronological fashion -- from deathbed visions (including the remarkably detailed report of Sir Auckland Geddes in 1937), the moment of separation from the physical body, the early stages of postmortem existence, the life review, and the soul's gravitation to the appropriate sphere or plane.
Summing up in a chapter titled "Making Sense of the Afterlife," Tymn considers how best to understand this larger world. "Another perspective on this," he writes,
is to view the earth life like a movie, an illusory life, being viewed by the real self -- the soul. During a movie, we occasionally remind ourselves that we are separated from the movie action, but we then again become absorbed by the action and feel much of the emotion being experienced by the actors. After a very emotionally-charged movie ends, it sometimes affects us for the rest of the day or evening. And so it seems to be with the soul that has a hard time shaking off the earth experiences.
The lingering effects of earthly life account for some of the difficulties in making the transition to the next life, and for the diverse levels of consciousness among the deceased, as revealed by mediumship.
The book offers four appendices covering premonitions of death, the possibility of reincarnation, the issue of suicide, and capsule biographies of noted researchers and mediums. There is an extensive bibliography which runs the gamut from modern books like James E. Beichler's To Die For to older, obscure titles like Stanley De Brath's 1925 Psychical Research, Science and Religion. The breadth of Tymn's sources is truly impressive, and I was left thinking I should make a list of the interesting titles in his bibliography that I haven't yet read. There are quite a few.
The Afterlife Revealed clocks in at a speedy 192 pages, densely packed with information and insights. It's a fine book, a labor of love aimed at lightening the burden of all those who seek a larger meaning in our predominantly materialistic age, and I hope it finds the intelligent, discriminating readership it deserves.
AMF, i think your biggest issue is with religions and their concepts of afterlife. i've been visiting this blog for many years and i would have to say that michael's posts and majority of people who commented on this blog were not religious and we're just people who like to see any scientific proof about afterlife and thus far i do not think that most of us are 100% convinced.
keep in mind that throughout history, religions have played major roles in discouraging any research into the afterlife. followers are forbidden to go to psychics, mediums, consult astrology, tarot cards, etc. etc.... they were told to follow the holy book and nothing else. now, at the scientific community, these scientific authority figures are also doing the same thing in prosecuting those who are looking for answers through methods of science. researchers who conducted those researches were shunned, ignored, and their tenure at universities were threatened. the best example i can think of was Alfred Russel Wallace. He also came up with the theory of evolution around the same time as Darwin, but because of his research into mediums in his later life he was shunned and discredited.... Without Wallace, the theory of evolution wouldnt have been complete (eg. see this link http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92059646 )
so, AMF, if you're willing to take religion out of the afterlife- treating it as an another stage in life that we all go through...and just start with that, then you'll be surprise how much evidence there is, and you'll probably not 100% convinced (even i'm not either), but at the very least, you wouldnt think that those people who consider the possibility of afterlife are just bunch of scared, religious, and church-going people.
Posted by: TomC | July 01, 2011 at 09:19 PM
Starting NOW on Coast-to-Coast AM (at 10 PM Pacific time): Two hours with Dr. Jeffrey Long on the afterlife, NDEs, etc.
Posted by: Roger Knights | July 01, 2011 at 10:02 PM
Ok i know i have made everyone uncomfortable for attacking your precious believes, this is my last post here, i just want to spread some joy before i leave
There is no purpose to the universe, the universe doesn't care for us, we are nothing.
My hero Christopher Hitchens puts religion in its place :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1lTR8V90qU
My hero Richard Dawkins points out the silliness of Religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigmGyN2RQ
My hero Carl Sagan points out the silliness of Astrology and Pseudoscience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA&playnext=1&list=PLC23445059D2D436E
My hero Neil Degrase Tyson points out the silliness of believing in a fine tuned universe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mij4DYYnkF8
Sorry my friends but there doesn't seem to be any higher power in the universe. We are living in a mechanical universe with no purpose. All idesas about nonphysical beings are pure WOOO.
Free Will is an illusion.
Finally the death of the body is the death of the mind, all hope for a Soul in an afterlife is nonsense.
GOODBYE.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 01, 2011 at 10:06 PM
You know, this is why I don't have respect for some new Atheists, I've seen guys like AMF who some how get their jollies out of making people afraid of materialistic death, and I've seen some people becoming very depressed or scared over it (there is a poster over at Skeptiko who is going through this and it is very sad to watch).
Posted by: Aftrbrnr | July 01, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Damn I guess I wasted my time actually writing rebuttals to people such as Woerlee and Augustine, I now know from AMF to just post and run is the method of true thinkers.
Hitchens got stumped like a little school boy by Christian Philosopher William Lane Craig.
Dawkins is currently cowering like a little girl at the name of William Lane Craig. He is so afraid of Craig that he has refused constant demands even by atheists to debate him.
Sagan is not exactly a reliable source at as he tends to support pseudo history such as Christians burning the Library of Alexandria and Christians suppressing science which are laughable views to modern historians.
Cannot say much about Neil but the fact you endorse and your critical thinking skills are worthless AMF I doubt he has much worth saying.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:31 PM
I knew it Kris is a religious right wing fundamentalist, why is he supporting William Lane Craig?
Don't embarass yourself Kriss, William Lane Craig is so out of touch with modern science. Please just stick with Chopra and his WOOO.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 01, 2011 at 10:37 PM
I guess he didn`t bother reading the links - and if this was a debate - then I guess we win the game - his last post was the most hilarious one yet. ;O
Nor does he seem up-to-date on the latest with Astronomy and how this Material-Universe was once a Microwave-Universe prior to the time of the "Big Bang" from 6.6 billion years ago.
Hey, AMF, just in case you do come back here to visit for some reason, I want to tell you about my "frightening experience" involving PK and the manipulation of matter through intended consciousness: Basically, this biological-organism, somehow, I was able to manipulate. A baby...eventually...I saw through the vantage-point of this...baby...I was frightened. I found it uncomfortable that I could do things like make its hands and feet wiggle through sheer conscious will-power.
Eventually, this baby form got bigger, and yet, I somehow manage to manipulate this biological, and thus MATERIAL, entity. I could eventually get its vocal-cords to speak at the age of four, run around, play with toys, and now let's fast-forward to the now. `Tis just frightening, uncomfortable, and scary to think about the fact that I can make this now-adult biological-MATERIAL-entity do things like type onto a key-board to give a response on this here blog...
I swear in all honesty, this is like Macro PK (Psycho-Kinesis), how I can manipulate such a HEAVY MATERIAL like a Human-Body, and it freaks me out that I am actually able to manipulate its thoughts to do things like think about how some pseudo-skeptical militant-debunkers get frustrated when encountering real scientists, then it starts to laugh in a manner like it actually thinks that the "communication" it "read" on something humans call "computer" was actually hilarious. Phew, glad I finally got that off my mind, and thanks for listening. ;)
Posted by: Юкинов | July 01, 2011 at 10:37 PM
Who says I support Craig. However I know he spanked Hitchens like a child and Dawkins is afraid of Craig so this says enough about your heroes.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:40 PM
So basically AMFs heroes are the drunk, the coward and the clueless with history.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:42 PM
HUH, i am confused Юкинов, but if you believe in PK you seriously need help, please all i want is to teach you some critical thinking and yes you are right i didn't read the links you gave, why should i? Like i said before my position is so strong supported by virtually every scientist.
Goodbye Юкинов, Kris and everyone else, i am leaving now, never to return. I am too busy preparing for the World Atheist Convention that is going to be held right here in Melbourne next year. Try to come or watch it over Youtube, or maybe you would be too busy attending some Chopra seminar LOL.
GOODBYE.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 01, 2011 at 10:43 PM
Would you kindly ask Dawkins to quit hiding from Craig and to just man up and taking his public spanking like a man while you are there AMF.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:44 PM
And tell Hitches to sober up.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Sure will do, Craig gets his evidence from the bible but Dr.Dawkins uses the powerful methods of modern science. Why would anyone take poor William Craig seriously.
Goodbye
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 01, 2011 at 10:48 PM
So you mean all those Atheist Philosophers such as Quentin Smith and the late Anthony Flew who felt Craig is a brilliant philosopher do not know what they are talking about. Actually in fact as someone who enjoys philosophy debates I can assure you Craig does not use the Bible at all to defend Theism. He uses Kalam's Cosmological Argument among others.
So at your convention tell Dawkins to quite hiding, man up and have a philosophical debate with Craig.
What a list of heroes you have; the drunk dilettante, the craven coward and the clueless.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 10:52 PM
How many 'Goodbyes' before AMF eventually leaves?
Posted by: Zerdini | July 01, 2011 at 11:01 PM
Yeah, I know, I told you the experience was frightening, did I not ! The fact that I can move this adult human-body, that is supposèdly mine, does in fact, seem to resemble PK-manipulation of this biological-organism. Are you going to help me or not ? D= I am so scared that...I might have...some sort of ability to manipulate this biological-material...object...this...human-body. O_O I can even see it as I command its fingers to type onto this keyboard ! X_X
Posted by: Юкинов | July 01, 2011 at 11:05 PM
I don't know Zerdini but I will remind him many times that his one of heroes was utterly destroyed by a Christian Philosopher and Saint Dawkins of the Dumb Atheism cowers at the name of William Lane Craig.
His list of heroes reads like is whose who of the Patron Saints of the Dumb Atheism.
Saint Hitchens his special saint power is to get drunk and make absurd arguments comments. Then drink more.
Saint Dawkins- his special power is to hide anytime an informed opposition wants to debate him. He uses this power in conjunction with his power of saying one should interact with those they disagree with.
Saint Sagan- Has the ability to be absolutely gullible when researching history while condemning others for being gullible.
St Augustine ( not of Hippo)- Has the ability to make Blackmore and Woerlee sound convincing . This in fact is an impressive power.
Posted by: Kris | July 01, 2011 at 11:10 PM
I listened in on that discussion, with Chopra, but apparently, AMF does not seem to realise that even many parapsychologists also reject the bible and religious beliefs of Christians. Even I reject it as being a reliable and accurate source-of-information.
Did you know that even The Messiah rejects the bible and rejects the qu`ran and rejects all forms of institutionalised religion ? For your information, I have been a four-time Atheist during this life-time, and if you describe "God" as being "all-loving" and "only love" then I`d still be considered an Atheist.
Even The Messiah says that «God» is NOT «all love» or «only love» and that anybody who teaches, believes, and or espouses that notion, are all deceived. AMF won't examine everything, like I do with all of his references, and so I suspect that he'll eventually have to question why it is that I can thoroughly examine his references and still not manage to find it as convincing as the parapsychologists (most of whom also reject religion just like the atheists reject religion by the way).
Posted by: Юкинов | July 01, 2011 at 11:25 PM
Please just stick with Chopra and his WOOO
Ha ha thats like saying "just tell Mell Gibson to stick with the Rabbi"
Jeeze AMF do you make it all up as you go along?
Posted by: Not Scared | July 02, 2011 at 12:16 AM
MP's Review of "The Afterlife Revealed" has been hijacked.
It must have frightened a lot of people!
Posted by: Zerdini | July 02, 2011 at 01:00 AM
What's wrong with Ohijyure, why is he linking pornographic sites, he almost messed up my computer, please ban that troll.
Posted by: Baloney detector | July 02, 2011 at 01:12 AM
To..A M is a fact.
You must not disappear forever....start your own blog, get into TV, please come back on here again, out of the blue, but don't disappear.
I treasure your posts, too many to type but the excerpt of one ( below ) is going to be framed and put up above my computer,
'All of you worship and look up to Jesus Christ and Buddha and whatever.
I worship and look up to James Randi, Michael Shermer, Keith Augustine and others.
These are the true people we should look up to, we can call them the bringers of light '
Utter perfection. Thank God I checked in to have a look, otherwise I would have missd it.
Posted by: Anon. | July 02, 2011 at 05:05 AM
One more thing before i leave for good, why is everyone accusing me of being someone on some other site? this is my last post here
my purpose of coming here is to instill some critical thinking and to let all of you know that there are a lot of people out there that don't agree with Parasychology and the strange notion of Survival after death, let me mention a few names
(1) James Randi- the greatest magician and scientific thinker of all time, highly trained in deception. He understands clearly how we fool ourselves. We are profoundly grateful to James Randi, his work all these years has saved thousands and thousands of people from frauds and charlatans. Thank you Grandpa James.
(2) Susan Blackmore- trained extensively in Parasychology, also a highly regarded Psychologist and an honest seeker of the truth. She is highly regarded by Academics.
(3) Michael Shermer- probably the greatest critical thinker of our time, his hard work has helped thousands from being cheated by phony psychics and astrologers. Brother Michael is also one of the new atheists that travels around the world pointing out the dangers of Religion. Thank you Brother Michael.
(4) PZ Myers- highly trained biologist who has said ' NO EVIDENCE WILL CONVINCE ME OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD' PZ Meyers has made it safe for people like me to call ourselves Atheists in this country. We are claiming back our rights, religion has no place in the public square.
(5) Richard Wiseman- Also a highly trained magician and scientist. Powerful debunker of parasychology, he has tested almost everything that you talk about from Telepathy to bigfoot and he has found no positive evidence.
(6) Steve Novella- Master of Critical Thinking, unlike many medical doctors Steve Novella is a highly trained skeptic, he has saved thousands of people from silly things like Homeopathy, Accupuncture and all other Alternative medicines that have no basis in Science. Please take him seriously, medicine must be Science based not based on magical wishful thinking.
(7)Joe Nickell- highly intelligent investigator, found no evidence of any spooky stuff
and
(8) Penn and Teller- i love this guys, they have debunked NDE's and ESP and also all sorts of dangerous conspiracy nonsense, we are tremendously grateful to Brother Penn and Teller
I live in Australia so i can make it for this years THE AMAZING MEETING, can someone please do me a favor, can you please attend the meeting and put the videos out on Youtube, do us all a favour and spread critical thinking and enlightenment values.
http://www.amazingmeeting.com/
Goodbye
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 05:42 AM
...sweet ecstasy.......
Posted by: . | July 02, 2011 at 06:19 AM
I feel terrible, before i damage my reputation anymore let me just say yes i am the same person called Open Minded Atheist from the mind energy forum, i am sorry for doing this, i was just hoping to start a discussion on Life After Death.
Please forgive me for wasting all your time, i swear, swear this will be the last you hear from me.
I feel really bad, i am sorry if i have hurt any feelings.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 06:48 AM
Don't worry, you haven't hurt any feelings, we love you. I love you.
'James Randi - the greatest ( magician and ) scientific thinker of all time....' :+) ... :-D
Posted by: . | July 02, 2011 at 07:06 AM
You are too kind, i love all of you too.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 07:08 AM
"I worship and look up to James Randi, Michael Shermer, Keith Augustine and others."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: DebunkThis! | July 02, 2011 at 07:58 AM
what the....?
Posted by: no one | July 02, 2011 at 07:59 AM
What has struck me about this thread is the patience and constant referrals to actual research in the face of, frankly, preposterous assertions from AMF. Though he or she isn't prepared to listen to reason, there must be many who have or will read this thread and do their own research as a result. For what it's worth - it has made a positive impression on me despite the obvious attempts at provocation.
Posted by: Paul | July 02, 2011 at 08:22 AM
I am sad i have lost the trust and respect of almost everyone on the mind energy forum, except for the kind user known as Open Mind.
I am sorry once again for doing this, i just wanted to have a discussion about the afterlife.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 08:23 AM
Not to worry dear AMF (I know he'll be back =p), I have in fact, made many "Christians" come out of their boxed in thinking and, believe it or not, I was most-effective with it because of what I had ironically learned in parapsychology (and even making use of bible-references to bring them into cognitive-dissonance about their own beliefs). Some of them, including a former pastor, actually became Atheists as a result of having discussed things with me at-length (even though I do not currently regard myself as either a Christian nor an Atheist in the mainstream/Orthodox sense).
You don't need to worry about any of us having our feelings hurt because, for the most-part, I doubt most of us even care to listen to most Christians like Chopra either (I know I did not - but at the same time the opposing side also seems to sound just as fundamentalist). I can forgive you for your outbursts, for you know not what you do unto yourself, and we did have some discussions sparked about Life-After-Death (not sure if you noticed it or not due to your last post). I can tell you more about how I turn Christians into Atheists (even though I am neither Christian nor Atheist) if you want but, considering that you won't even read the links in full that we have posted, I have to assume that such effective methods at turning Christians into Atheists probably isn't as important to you as it had originally sounded.
Regardless, I sincerely do hope you eventually find freedom and surcease from the disturbing thoughts about what others might do unto others and themselves because of their silly beliefs, and the Milgram Shock-Experiments are indeed, proof-positive that belief in needing to heed destructive/punitive external-authority as-if though it were some sort of God to always be obeyed and never questioned does in fact lead people into barbaric behaviours that we'd think should only be expected out of the barbarians of the Dark-Ages... surely, our discussions have not been a waste of time, although I suspect that the rest of us here probably learned more from each other by adding all of this extra knowledge to our paradigm-grids rather than rejecting it from even entering into our "box of knowledge." Well, with that, good luck to you.
Posted by: Юкинов | July 02, 2011 at 08:24 AM
Thank you dear Юкинов for sharing your wisdom and knowledge.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 08:31 AM
"I am sad i have lost the trust and respect of almost everyone on the mind energy forum, except for the kind user known as Open Mind. I am sorry once again for doing this, i just wanted to have a discussion about the afterlife."
As a member of both forums, this is the oddest thing I've ever seen. To be honest, I hardly know whether to believe you even now, AM.
But if it's true, then let me just say this. Instead of coming to Michael's blog and acting like a jerk, all you had to say was: "I just lost some loved ones. I'm terribly depressed and I want to ask some questions about life after death."
You would have gotten MANY caring responses here, and we all would have felt a lot better, including you.
On the other hand, I know from personal experience that sometimes, the hardest thing of all is simply to ask for help. Maybe you'll be better at it next time.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 02, 2011 at 10:07 AM
"What's wrong with Ohijyure, why is he linking pornographic sites, he almost messed up my computer, please ban that troll."
It's a spambot. It uses different IP addresses so it can't be banned.
I confess I'm now thoroughly confused by AM. Was he being serious or not? I thought he was serious, but then he writes, "... before i damage my reputation anymore let me just say yes i am the same person called Open Minded Atheist from the mind energy forum, i am sorry for doing this, i was just hoping to start a discussion on Life After Death."
Leaving aside the obvious fact that AM was not "trying to start a discussion" and wasn't interested in having an exchange of views, I honestly can't figure out whether he was doing this whole thing as a spoof.
And after posting the above, he adds, "I am sad i have lost the trust and respect of almost everyone on the mind energy forum, except for the kind user known as Open Mind."
But I thought he said he *is* Open Mind ...? So he's saying he hasn't lost the trust and respect of himself? Or are Open Mind and Open Minded Atheist two different people?
At any rate, I can't take someone seriously when he opines that James Randi is "the greatest magician and scientific thinker of all time." I am sure Randi himself would not endorse that notion. I think he would say that his hero Houdini was the greatest magician (or at least, the greatest escape artist - which was Randi's own specialty). As for the greatest scientific thinker, I'm sure Randi would cheerfully acknowledge that he doesn't hold a candle to Newton, Einstein, the pioneers of QM, and many more.
I also find it funny that AM approvingly quotes PZ Myers as saying, "NO EVIDENCE WILL CONVINCE ME OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD." If no evidence will convince him, then he's not being rational about it, is he? (I'm not saying it's irrational to be an atheist, only that it's irrational to say that you'll never, ever change your mind, regardless of any evidence that might come up.)
Anyway, AM's whole performance has been pretty weird, with his taunts, over-the-top claims about the greatness of various skeptics, admission that he has read little or none of the relevant literature (even on the skeptical side), and bizarre belief that he is "scaring" us or hurting our feelings.
It should go without saying that the skeptical position can be defended much more convincingly than this. AM is almost a strawman for his own side of the argument.
I did enjoy reading his posts, though.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | July 02, 2011 at 10:23 AM
----
Yup, both Atheists and Christians don't agree with Parapsychology, but for different reasons. Christians also don't seem to like the idea that Parapsychologists have discovered that NOT everybody automatically enters into «heaven» upon physical-demise (INCLUDING THOSE WHO "BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST" - they get bewildered as much as the Atheists).
----
Did he really ? I did kind of feel like something was ailing him (not in the psychic sense but through simple psychological-perception). I am sure he has come to trust me at least a little bit better now due to the fact that I refused to wield any verbal-mace against him. I was also being patient to demonstrate by example rather than trying to force-cram anything down the throat of another. I do not regret my decision to be peaceful on a 24/7 basis (both verbally and materially).
----
I learned how to become this patient, ironically, from Parapsychological-Research and Terence Malaher's The Testament of Truth web-site. Speaking of Terence Malaher being The Messiah (I know, I know, bunches of you must be thinking I might be mentally ill now because of that statement =p), one thing that struck me as very interesting amongst his writings, besides the fact that he has a huge section called «The CRUCIFIXION of Religion» - was that he had also written that « Evolution of the flesh is a fact.»
You can read it for yourself here if you wish to wade through that section... http://www.the-testament-of-truth.co.uk/web/spirit2.htm (It`s under the «Evolution vs. Creation» section).
----
Posted by: Юкинов | July 02, 2011 at 11:11 AM
I wonder if any of the bringers of light will make an appearance ?
KEITH, ......KEITH, can you hear me ? :-)
Posted by: . | July 02, 2011 at 11:33 AM
"KEITH, can you hear me ?"
Why do some people persist in baiting Keith Augustine? Personally, I find him a pretty likable fellow. And he's spent plenty of time defending his position on this blog.
Those trying to turn a search for truth into a pissing contest might benefit from a little perspective, no?
Posted by: Michael Prescott | July 02, 2011 at 11:39 AM
"But I thought he said he *is* Open Mind ...? So he's saying he hasn't lost the trust and respect of himself? Or are Open Mind and Open Minded Atheist two different people?"
Michael, Open Mind and Open Minded Atheist are indeed two different posters at the Skeptiko forum.
Having followed this story on both forums, I think--strange as it may seem--that AMF and Open-Minded Atheist are, in fact, the same person.
What ties it all together is that in both places he's asking for help.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 02, 2011 at 12:10 PM
I wasn't baiting Keith, Michael.
It was a little joke that I'm sure he is big and confident enough to see the funny side of.
Even the sceptics can surely see the humour in this. Take a small chill pill.
Posted by: . | July 02, 2011 at 01:04 PM
I will confess after discussions with Dr Woerlee on NDEs Keith is a breath of fresh air. At least Keith knows what logical fallacies are and he is smart enough to see problems areas with his side.
I think Keith is being mentioned because of AMF. Keith has argued on here before and I think we all agree he was weak, so to bring him up as a great opponent of our position was comical to say the least.
Yes I mentioned him in jest earlier , but note I mentioned a lot of AMFs Saints in jest. And unlike the other Saints I gave Keith a real talent in my post. Anyone who can make Woerlee and Blackmore convincing truly does have talent!
Posted by: Kris | July 02, 2011 at 01:08 PM
Hey everyone,
Atheistic Materialism / Open Minded Atheist, is indeed not the same person as Open Mind. Trust me there no similarities between those two posters.
While this guy brought up a couple interesting topics over on the Skeptiko forums, I think he's dreadfully confused and seeking answers by taking on different characters on the internet. Such is the nature of the 'net.
Best to move on, I just hope he isn't really on the verge of some existential meltdown / psychological collapse as some of his posts on Skeptiko suggest. In fact, I'd rather him just be some troll versus that option.
Posted by: Cyrus | July 02, 2011 at 02:10 PM
"I just hope he isn't really on the verge of some existential meltdown / psychological collapse"
Yeah, that occurred to me, too. Seriously.
"Open Mind and Open Minded Atheist are indeed two different posters"
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
This was a strange interlude, wasn't it?
Posted by: Michael Prescott | July 02, 2011 at 03:29 PM
"a humdrum Heaven*
They haven't seen what the mystics have seen.
THE STUBBORN, THE BLIND AND THE DUMB
Take Stonewall and Jack by their halters
And lead them out of the stable
To graze in the bright green meadow,
They will come without question behind you
But if God takes a man by the shoulders
And leads him out of his prison
Of death to walk in the meadows
Of Paradise Green, he will cavil
The world is my stall and my stable
And I know of no other but these,
And the dark is gathering quickly,
And I do not believe, says he
The horses know how to obey,
They are under the power of Man,
They lower their heads to the grazing
But we are afraid and remain
Soon He will come to remind us
That the time of the strolling has come,
He will lead us to where He intended -
The stubborn, the blind and the dumb
Pavel
June 25, 2011
Posted by: Pavel Chichikov | July 02, 2011 at 03:29 PM
After reading this post by AM on another forum ...
http://tinyurl.com/3leqbqc
... I'm concerned for his well-being. It seems he's been dealing with some difficult personal issues. As Cyrus says on that thread, AM's problems probably don't have much to do with the truth or falsehood of materialism. Something else seems to be at work here.
AM, if you happen to be reading this, be aware that there are many people who are able to help you and will be very happy to do so - counselors, therapists, etc. We all need a helping hand sometime.
Sorry I took a joking tone toward your earlier posts - I wasn't sure what to make of them. Clearly you're facing some real pain, but I'm certain you can find peace and happiness if you reach out to the right people for a little assistance.
Be well.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | July 02, 2011 at 04:03 PM
"I think he's dreadfully confused and seeking answers".
Somewhat reminds me of my situation,regarding parapsychology/sruvival,Cirus.But that based on the fact that so many theories,sometimes even mutually exclusive,so mmany opinions,so much speculatioin...But I chose my way to resolve it(at least,to degree).I email my questions directly to Alan Gauld and Stephen Braude and ALWAYS get answers(intelligent ,polite and informative).They are truly nice people that can help to confused persons to distinguish what it is worht attention and what is not.Sorry,but for such admitedly gullible and naive person as myself,who believes almost everything he reads direct correspondence with Alan and Stephen really helps.I thank them for the fact that however busy they are they always find time for responses,sometimes detailed sometimes brief.I found it even more useful than to aks opinion on forums.
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 02, 2011 at 04:28 PM
http://tinyurl.com/3leqbqc
... I'm concerned for his well-being.
Thanks for alerting us to that post of his. I am struck by how much that post came across as relying on the opinions of other people as to what to believe. I will try to keep my point here as brief as possible...
...what thoughts enter into our minds determine our emotions. I could listen to and believe one person who is extremely depressed and extremely depressing. I could also listen to and believe another person who is extremely happy and extremely uplifting.
«Opportunity only knocks once...when you miss your opportunity it is gone forever.» - Depressing Person
«Opportunities are everywhere! Open your eyes and be prepared to see what that Deperssing Person seems to be blind to !» - Wise Person
I am sure we can all guess which «thoughts» between the above two statements I will permit to revolve within my mind rather than the other one (I am always opportunistic). Hopefully our friend AM(F) manages to develop the same kind of thought-control and comes to a realisation that our thoughts determine our emotions. I shall end this by saying that great heroes are everywhere...
Posted by: Юкинов | July 02, 2011 at 04:42 PM
"This was a strange interlude, wasn't it?"
If you want to know more about AM/OMA, check out his thread at Skeptiko, which is here:
"http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/2196-loosing-hope.html"
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 02, 2011 at 05:06 PM
Thank you Michael and others for your compassion and understanding, i am sorry for annoying everyone, i was searching for answers and i wanted help.
I will be meeting a councilor soon, thank you everyone.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 05:23 PM
Also a special thanks to Kris and Юкинов, both of you inspire me, thank you for your wisdom and kindness.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 05:27 PM
This might help AMF
http://www.openmindsite.com/dl.htm
Posted by: Kris | July 02, 2011 at 07:21 PM
Reading through it now myself. The references to Dean Radin's book and Richard S. Broughton are certainly documents I would recommend. I did start on Broughton's book but haven't finished it yet.
The book that got me started on my particular journey into constant absorption of all studies of paranormal-research (and verifying whether the names of mentioned people actually existed or not) was Ian Currie's book, however, according to this one customer, his review said it was not a book that he would recommend to somebody coping with a loss, and that there were other books which were better-suited to that purpose. This is his review...
All in all, I highly recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/You-Cannot-Die-Incredible-Findings/product-reviews/1894042093/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
I don't know if I would necessarily agree as to not recommending it as I was myself also in a similar loss-situation (and near-suicidal at the time before this book helped bring me to my senses). What does everyone else think as far as recommending this book to him ?
(You Cannot Die: The Incredible Findings of a Century of Research on Death - Ian Currie)
Posted by: Юкинов | July 02, 2011 at 08:11 PM
"Why do some people persist in baiting Keith Augustine? Personally, I find him a pretty likable fellow. And he's spent plenty of time defending his position on this blog."
I agree. Some of the most interesting moments on this blog have stemmed from debates with Augustine. What better way to test your own beliefs and understandings then to put them up against the opposition?
Posted by: sam | July 02, 2011 at 08:32 PM
Starting at 10 PM Pacific time tonight (in 1 hour):
"First hour guests, the 'Psychic Twins,' Terry & Linda Jamison speak about their assistance in solving murder cases, and how they have reunited families across national borders."
Posted by: Roger Knights | July 02, 2011 at 09:12 PM
Thank you Kris and Юкинов for those links, i just started reading journey into the afterlife from that link, its very good, i am glad the author is well aware of skeptical objections and he answers them all. I didn't come across Ian Currie's book mentioned by Юкинов, but i will keep looking thank you dear friends :)
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 02, 2011 at 11:01 PM
"Thank you Kris and Юкинов for those links"
AM, how nice to have you here as a participating member, now that you've removed your mask and disguise. :o)
In many ways, I can relate very well to your situation. Back in 1992, I was just opening up to the spiritual world after 20 years as a materialist and atheist. Up to that point, I felt very, very, sure of my scientific and logical approach to the world.
I knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that death was the end, and that any attempt to claim otherwise was simply wishful thinking. I'm being honest with you when I say that if a friend or acquaintance brought up the subject of psychic phenomena or God, it made me angry.
My attitude was: Can't you see how crazy that kind of thinking is? Can't you see how you're simply unwilling to face the pain of dealing with the truth? Death is death. Deal with it!
I also thought: And when you pray to God, it's really the child inside you calling out Mommy! Daddy! Please help me!
That last part is what my therapist told me, and for 20 years, I believed it 1000%. (Yes, three zeroes.) :o)
In fairness, though, therapy saved my life, and set the stage for my later spiritual awakening. So I'm deeply grateful for it.
But in 1992, I was severely depressed. Suicidal, actually.
And about that time, I began reading about NDE's. (Ken Ring was my favorite author at the time, and if you haven't read Lessons From The Light, I strongly recommend it to you.) I was drawn to NDEs because there seemed to be so many aspects that science couldn't explain, most of all the fact that these people, when their vital signs ceased, were reporting the most loving, insightful, and transformative experience of their lives.
So I read and read with growing excitement, though a big part of me was thinking: Bruce, you're falling into a trap here! Can't you see this is too good to be true!? Get a grip on yourself!
And for several years I became a sort of scientist/lawyer, weighing the evidence in every spare moment I had, testing the case for survival against one objection after another. I have boxes packed with index cards full of notes I wrote to myself, binders full of arguments in which I was trying my damnedest to get to the truth.
Something that really helped was that a year or two into this tug-of-war, I began suspecting that some of my dreams were precognitive. And if they were, that would be a game changer for me. It would prove to me that psi is real. And if psi is real, then all the materialist arguments collapse like a house of cards.
So I conducted a weeks-long test that proved to me conclusively, that I do, in fact, have precognitive dreams. And I'm saying this to you, AM, because in the search for truth, nothing is more powerful than your own experience. (We're talking about this right now in the Skeptiko thread called "How to prove to yourself that psi is real.")
Anyway, I hope you find the help and the comfort you need, AM. Whatever the truth about life after death--and I'm convinced it's the real thing--you've got to make sense of THIS life.
Once again, welcome to the conversation!
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 02:40 AM
Dear Bruce, thank you so much for sharing your experience with me, your life story is truly inspiring. I actually bought Kenneth Rings book lessons from the light, one week before my aunt died in 2010, i wanted to read it but i came across an article on the skeptics dictionary saying Kenneth Ring made a mistake about some shoe in a hospital involving a patient named Maria. I was too depressed and couldn't bring myself to read the book. The same thing happened with Charles Tart the end of Materialism, i read Bob Carrols review of it on the Skeptics Dictionary and i got depressed again.
Its very clear that these people ( Bob Carrol and others ) have not investigated these things properly, that's why i disguised as a Materialists hoping that all of you will debunk them.
Also here is Robert Carolls disturbing review of Charles Tart the end of Materialism: http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/tart.html, does Charles Tart have an email, i would like him to respond to this.
I am also depressed about direct experiences, i truly, truly, truly hope they are true, but a neurologist named Kevin Nelson said in his book the God Impulse that there is no evidence of anything occurring beyond the brain.
That's why i am on the verge of giving up. I don't feel like living any longer. I have been on this for two years and have found no satisfying answers.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 03:12 AM
This is disturbing why is that mean spirited Robert Carrol saying these things:
http://skepdic.com/essays/palpablyuntrue.html
n the beginning, spirit scientists intended to prove to the skeptics beyond any reasonable doubt that spirit phenomena were real. Almost immediately they discovered it was easy to be deceived and that they couldn’t succeed in this task until they designed tests that eliminated all trickery, fraud, sensory leakage, and the like. One reason we are no closer today than we were 150 years ago to proof of spiritual phenomena is that the task has proved impossible. Some researchers, like Schwartz, are still being deceived and working with poorly designed experiments. Some, like E. Targ, are still resorting to deception to arrive at positive results. Some, like Radin, have found meta-analysis to be the philosopher’s stone of parapsychology.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 03:18 AM
Posted by: Wax Frog | July 03, 2011 at 03:34 AM
Sorry, clearly I know zero about wordpress tags! :-o
Posted by: Wax Frog | July 03, 2011 at 03:35 AM
Please correct or delete my preceding posts, as needed.
Posted by: Wax Frog | July 03, 2011 at 03:36 AM
Thank you dear one, unfortunately my time is coming to an end, i must use these last precious few days on planet earth well, i won't be around much longer, just look at this, i felt sick after watching this, look at how Atheist Jonathan Miller visits a dying Atheist in a hospital, and both of them assure each other that death is the end, look at how Jonathan Miller implies that it is silly to believe in another existence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhUoeKoBJ7w&feature=related
I am just waiting, waiting to get hit by a truck. I won't be around to see the results of the AWARE study, i won't be around to see the 2012 olympics and I won't be around to read Rupert Sheldrakes new book next year.
Thank you dear ones.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 04:52 AM
Oh God, just finished watching this 18 part documentary of Atheism by Dr. Jonathan Miller, he says at the end that more people are beginning to embrace death without the clutch of Religion, and as usual he links the existence of an Afterlife with the Bible.
Why does this keep happening? Why do i keep attracting these videos and articles into my life?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGq7bzAzFoM
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 05:00 AM
Hi Michael,
I am 'Open Mind' from the skeptiko forum, I've never posted in here before.
Good to see Michael Tymn has another book out.
Cheers.
Posted by: Open Mind | July 03, 2011 at 05:40 AM
Dear Bruce,Michael and others...
Almost all of discussion here is dedicated to help AMF,which is understandable,but I myself feel down and would appreciate some help,but for complete opposite reason.I got to take afterlife seriously after reading about bulgarian medium/clairvoyant Vanga.The story goes like that: one russian-speaking psychologist/writer visited this lady in Bulgaria,and after that was convinced that through her he had a conversation with his deceased mother/grandmother.I wish I could share the link about this story,but it is in russian language.After that,I don't know how it is possible to have any doubts - listen,AFM!
But let me quote what AFM posted on mind-energy ,by Paul Churchland: "The prospect of being conscious for an unending eternity is quite frankly appalling."
Here we go.On the one hand,I think there is a lot evidence for the afterlife,that cannot be ignored(Even one single case that I talked above could be enough.).On the other hand - I feel like Paul Churchland expressed.So I am down for complete different reason,than AFM.Ironically ,in my case suicide will not really help - if there is an afterlife how suicide will help to avoid it?Moreover,according to some reports suiciders don't actually solve their problems by suicide,but make things worse.I have to admit folks,that I got through few hard realizations in life - that one day humanity will be extinct,that one day earth will be no more...but none of them comparable for me with "The prospect of being conscious for an unending eternity is quite frankly appalling."
The only thing I can try to myself(as I feel) is like that.Paul Churchland is die-hard materialist.If an afterlife exists,he has no idea how it works.And watching video of some mediums,especially Carole Lynne,and reading some literature,geive some hope - maybe "eternity" doesn' work in "appalling" way?By the way,Michael Tymn also talks about "different levels" of consciousness - may be it plays out ok in the end?I don't know.Also,unlike others here,I'm ok with idea of reincarnation.
Any help from you,guys will be appreciated.Believe me ,I',m not trolling.Iroinaclly I feel negative emotions for the opposite reasons than AMF.
And AMF,I think the evidence for an afterlife is strong enough - good for You,but for me...wel,whatever I said.
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 06:03 AM
Dear Alexander, thank you for your response, but please don't be down, if the evidence for life after death is really as good as you say i would be so happy, it would be like winning the lottery 5 times in a row. If there is an afterlife it means we won't just die and turn into ashes and disappear forever, if there is an afterlife we don't have to live in dread of going under Anesthesia and never waking up. If there is an afterlife we can meet our dead loved ones again. Not having an afterlife is terrible, imagine looking at someone you love lying in a casket and thinking you will never ever see him or her again, its terrible, terrible.
Christof Koch a Neuroscientist and materialist who is open to the afterlife once said:
It is only ten years ago I finally realized, at the gut wrenching level, that death was going to
come to me. This insight came to me abruptly: I wasted an entire evening playing an addictive
first-person video game, running through eerily empty halls,
flooded corridors and plazas under an
foreign sun, pursued by hordes of aliens shooting at me. I went to bed and fell easily asleep. But
then I suddenly awoke with the knowledge that I was going to die! Not right there and then but
some day. I did not have any premonition of accidents about to happen, cancer, or so on|just the
sudden realization that my life was going to end, sooner or later. I pondered the signi cance of this for the next months, facing down an existentialist abyss of
oblivion and meaninglessness within me. Eventually, however, I realized at some unconscious level
that all is well! All would end well. There is no other way I can describe it; no mountaintop
conversion nor any
ash of deep intellectual insight but a sentiment that suff uses my life; I wake up
each morning to find myself in a world full of mystery and beauty. And I am profoundly thankful
to whatever God may be for the wonder of it all.
Of course, there are plenty of bad things happening. Natural catastrophes bring death and
destruction. And all of us, to a smaller or larger extent, engage in evil acts out of thoughtlessness,
selfi shness, greed, lust, indi fference, or fear, and sometimes even with the best of intentions. To the
maximal extent possible, we must prevent or, failing that, lessen the impact of the terrible su ffering
in the world. I am no Dr. Pangloss proclaiming that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
world badly needs improving, but human goodwill and ingenuity is, in principle, up to it.
Here I am, a highly organized pattern of mass and energy, one of about six billion, insignifi cant
in any objective accounting of the world. And in a short while this `I' will dissolve and will cease
to exist. What am I to the universe? Practically nothing. Yet this dissolution makes my life more
signi ficant. My passion for life, for my family, my love of dogs, running and climbing, books and
music, the cobalt blue sky, are meaningful because all of these will come to an end one day. And
that is as things should be.
I do not know what will come afterward, if there is an afterward in the usual sense of the word,
but whatever it is, I know in my bones that everything is for the best. I don't know why. I can
simply state the fact of the matter. How can this intuitively but strongly felt belief in a meaningful
universe be reconciled with science?
The rest of the article is here: http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 06:29 AM
Read through Carl Wickland's entire book: 30 Years Among the Dead (unlike Ian Currie's book, Wickland's is availabl in full transcription on-line, provided you look hard enough).
A the best way to study after-life evidence is through the collection of actual human-experiences (and I assure you that a human-experience is a subjective phenomenon which escapes being replicable scientifically - because human experiences are not an exact science).
AMF (soon to change into AMP [Atheistic Materialism is a Paradigm]), once you read through Dr. Carl Wickland's entire book, you might be obliged to obtain a Wimhurst device, just like he used to drive out possessing spirit-entities, then apply the static-electricity to the back of your head and upper part of your neck at the spinal-area (for the sake of dislodging those atheistic/materialist-entities that are obviously influencing you into looking only at Atheistic/Materialistic-material).
I am just going to point you first to the Chaptre on Suicide and give you a puzzle/task for you to figure out. One of the accounts is about a girl who tried to fool her boyfriend but then ended up getting killed by accident and her boyfriend got convicted of murder CONTRARY to everybody else's affirmation about his character to NOT be someone who would EVER murder. Can you figure out the mystery ? Can you find the face-book page and newspaper article that still questions the validity of his conviction ?
This is now your task, a «purpose of your existence» so-to-speak, that I am now bestowing unto you, for you shall now begin your training as a real paranormal-detective, who examines human-experiences on his OWN, rather than SOLELY relying on the subjective-interpretations of materialistic-atheists. Here is the chaptre I pulled up for you to get you started...
http://wickland.doctorshobbies.com/006-Spirits%20and%20Suicide.htm
(One last comment: This discussion has proven to be both quite educational and entertaining and goes to show why we must treat everybody as a friend/allie to be freed from the prisons of dogmatic-thinking rather than some infidel to be pwnt & defeated)
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 06:40 AM
Here is what I have learned from The Messiah: Our suffering only comes to a complete surcease upon paying off all of our negative spiritual/karmic-debts through forgiveness/suffering (from all life-times). Once we are completely sin-free (i.e.: absolutely zero negative emotions and zero spiritual-debts), then not even an axe-wielding madman would ever be inspired to harm any hair on our head, even if he is making a bloody mess out of the surrounding population. This Divine-Protection is ONLY granted to those who are sin-free.
I have put it to somewhat of a test myself and find that, even in on-line forum-posts, people typically don't seem to be inspired to wield a verbal-mace in my direction, even if I post similar subjects to someone who gets harassed for such a thread. The trouble is that the payment of taxes which are attached to punitive measures also are added unto our spiritual-dues based on what-ever the police/military whose wages we pay do unto others.
I can also give you a less woo-sounding version of coming out of depression but it`s somewhat lengthy so I`m just going to post a link to it where I provide its description on another forum... look here for the post by Ban-Dodger
http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts70427-start135.html
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 07:00 AM
"Dear Alexander, thank you for your response, but please don't be down"
Thanks AMD,I do my best not to.Books like this of Michael,interviews like this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN1r9rBQSNc&feature=related
and articles like this:
http://www.ofspirit.com/bobolson34.htm
make me hope that maybe Paul Churchland's words are unfounded
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 07:02 AM
«You cannot fail at learning what brings genuine-and-permanent happiness... because they are not failures... they are only temporary set-backs»
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 07:43 AM
Hi Юкинов, thank you for all those links, i will look through it now, i feel really inspired, thank you for doing all this for me my dear friend.
Alexander thank you too for those videos i will watch it just after i finish reading what Юкино sent me. Thank you dear friends.
Also i plan to change my name from AMF to Death is not the end :)
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 07:54 AM
Alexander, I'm trying to understand your situation. Tell me if I have this right:
You believe that you will continue to be conscious after your body dies. But you are afraid that what you experience in the afterlife will be terrible.
Is this what you're saying? And if so, what do you think will be so unbearable about it? What's your worst fear about what will happen in the afterlife?
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 10:47 AM
Bruce,I'm afraid of the world "eternity",and this was the point of Paul Churchland.I'm afraid that "eternity" will be unbearable.Could my fears ne unfounded?Could "eternity" be bearable?
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 10:54 AM
To the commenter who wrote: "Our whole sense of self, our consciousness everything comes from our brain, where else can it come from?"
Nobel prize winning scientists who studied psychic phenomena concluded it cannot be explained by ordinary science. They are:
Brian D. Josephson
(Nobel Prize for Physics)
Charles Robert Richet
(Nobel Prize for Physiology and Medicine)
John William Strutt
(Nobel Prize for Physics)
Marie Curie
(Nobel Prize for Physics and Nobel Prize for Chemistry)
Pierre Curie
(Nobel Prize for Physics)
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers
Who should I believe? These and other renowned scientists listed at the above link, or you?
You think they were foold by magic tricks? But many stage magicians who investigated psychics have said they stage magic cannot reproduce the same effects under the same conditions.
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_fallacies#skeptical_fallacies_magic
If someone is guilty of letting their peronal beliefs interfere with acknowledging facts or has been tricked by frauds and liars, maybe it is you.
Posted by: xkghbfvuqkgtviu6rd | July 03, 2011 at 11:28 AM
AMF
You seem new to this so let me give you some advice on this. Always get both side of the story. Read the arguments of people like Tart etc and then read the rebuttals. Never ever trust a skeptic to be your eyes. With skeptics such as Carroll treat them with the same principle one would treat a creationist, verify, verify, verify.
Many skeptics pretend to be neutral, when they are not. They do this to make themselves seem a lot more credible then they are.
Read the research, then read the skeptics.
Also be sure the skeptic you are talking with are informed. 95% of skeptics are clueless, they simply repeat what they heard other skeptics say.
Never ever trust the claims or neutrality of a skeptic. Verify, verify.
Use your sources wisely. Why would say Carroll have more expertise on say NDEs then NDE researchers?
This is a long road you are on. It took me years to go from skeptic to supporter of parapsychology and I did that through a lot of studying. It does not happen over night.
Dr Gerry Woerlee is Augustine's mentor
Here is his discussions on Amazon with myself and other informed critics, see how well he does.
Current discussion-
http://tinyurl.com/3j9fu7e
Older discussion-
http://tinyurl.com/3fslyn6
Reread that article I posted on the Lorber study. At least for those individuals consciousness was not located in the brain. How can the production theory possibly explain that?
Posted by: Kris | July 03, 2011 at 11:29 AM
"That's why i am on the verge of giving up. I don't feel like living any longer. I have been on this for two years and have found no satisfying answers."
AM, you're not going to find peace by weighing one intellectual argument against another. That's not how life works.
And knowing that death is not the end is helpful, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. (Alexander 1304 is proof of that.)
When I was going through periods of deep depression, there was no such thing as the internet. I had to learn to reach out and ask for help from the people in my life. That was a difficult process, and I doubt that I would have succeeded without the help I received from professionals (therapists) over the years.
I know you don't want to hear this, but maybe you need to stop obsessing about the afterlife, and start doing your best to find meaning in THIS life, one day at a time.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 11:32 AM
Alexander, your problem may seem the opposite of AM's, but maybe that's an illusion.
When I was a kid, death seemed to me the most awful thing imaginable. I simply couldn't understand how the people I knew could go on living, day after after, knowing that at some point in the future, they would have to face the unending nothingness that I believed death to be.
But looking back on my fears, here's how I see it now: I wasn't afraid of death. After all, I didn't really KNOW death, did I? What I DID know, was my own life, and how I felt from moment to moment.
And the truth is, my childhood was, in many ways, a painful time. My parents weren't able to provide the love and support I so badly needed, so I carried around a tremendous emptiness.
And one of the ways I dealt with that emptiness, was to project it onto death. Do you get the point? Part of me was saying, "My life today is OK. It's the future I'm afraid of. It's death that scares me."
But the problem wasn't my death, it was my life. Does that make sense?
So that's why I make exactly the same suggestion to you that I made to AM: find meaning, and joy, and love, from day to day. As someone else on this forum said, if you take into consideration all our former lives, this IS the afterlife.
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 11:53 AM
Bruce,
Thanks for the kind response and nice advice.
But that lead me to ask you:
if you take into consideration all our former lives, this IS the afterlife.
So,You believe at least in the possibility of reincarnation?
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 12:15 PM
"So,You believe at least in the possibility of reincarnation?"
More than that, I'm convinced of it. (Though I think time is an illusion, and that all our lives are actually happening simultaneously.)
My two favorite books on reincarnation:
Lifecycles by Christopher Bache
Return from Heaven by Carol Bowman
Woops! Turn off the bubble machine! (I mean the italics machine. You youngsters may need to google that.)
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 12:32 PM
Maybe Alexander didn't close his italics because he wants to make a point. He's giving us a taste of what it's like to be trapped in a strange, alternate universe for all eternity, a world where every single word is italicized for emphasis.
I want out!
Posted by: Bruce Siegel | July 03, 2011 at 12:42 PM
Thanks for response ,Bruce,I wanted to quote You by italics,but it didn't turn off after that.Now should be ok
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 12:48 PM
This is my attempt to turn off those italics...
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 12:57 PM
I'm trying to end italicshould be ok mow
Posted by: Alexander1304 | July 03, 2011 at 01:04 PM
Dear Kris, thank you so much for those links, G.M Woerlee is too scary, his arguments seem strong, thank you for debunking him, thank you also for your kind advice in dealing with the skeptics. Юкинов the links are very helpful thanks for sending them, thank you for your help, thank you so much Bruce for your kind advice and xkghbfvuqkgtviu6rd .
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 05:00 PM
No problem with Gerry, his arguments look strong to those who know only a little about NDEs. The same thing is true about Keith Augustine.
You will probably enjoy this website about NDEs- http://iands.org/home.html
That is the overall consensus of NDE researchers.
Materialists tend to be bullies, at least that is my overall experience with them.
Materialists hit with a two prong attack, they will hit you wish psychological attacks that question your intelligence and motives ( no one likes their intelligence and motives to be questioned)
Then they will hit you hard with " just the facts" ( so they claim).
Breathe and relax, it is just a keyboard.
Do not question your intelligence, that is what they want you to do.
Verify their claims and also verify the conclusions of their claims. While it is obvious the mind and brain are related it simply does not follow they are the same thing. No one has proven that and many an unfortunate rat has literally lost his brain in vain attempts to locate memory inside the brain. Think about the Lorber study, at least for those rare individuals conscious cannot be located in their brains for obvious reasons.
If they are losing the factual argument they will engage in a lot of personal attacks. When this happens just go for your pound of flesh so to speak.
If I was you I would just take a few year break and study though, no need to argue with the skeptics just yet. Be assured they will be around when you know a lot more!
Posted by: Kris | July 03, 2011 at 05:36 PM
That was fast if AMF/DiNtE/AMP managed to read everything already that all of us have linked. I am now on Day 11 (okay so I had also been "wasting my time playing on-line computer games" as some of my relatives/family/colleagues might say =p but otherwise I'd probably have finished reading) but then again I am a slow reader. For those who are not familiar with Cyrillic - Юкинов is equivalent to Yukinov in English.
I have honestly never seen anybody go from such extremist-skepticism (the knee-jerk-reactive close-minded type) to an interested zetetic (genuine skeptic rather than pseudo-skeptic) within such a short amount of time before. Certainly not due to debate/discussion. Usually such transitions only seem to occur under extreme survival-pressure. What was the trigger ?
Also makes me wonder if that James Randi «Amazing!» meeting will still be attended. They totally going to lambaste anybody who believes in all of this woo-woo. ;O - Well...back to my reading for now. =)
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 06:33 PM
Thank you Kris and Юкинов, yes very true Atheistic Materialists are bullies, espescially from my experience PZ Meyers and Steve Novella.
Steve Novella really annoys me, he attacks people that challenge materialism as people practicing magical thinking. When Dr. Chopra spoke about the need for alternative medicine nasty Novella said Dr. Chopra wants to get rid of Sciene and introduce Magical thinking. G.M Woerlee is scary, i read part of the debate between him and Kris, thank you for your hard work, these skeptics need someone to stand up to them and show them the facts. Could you please send me the link to the Lober study, i couldn't find it in the conversations above. Also i am hoping Quantum Consciousness will prove once and for all that Consciousness does survive death. I have high hopes on Stuart Hammerof, Henry Stapp and Roger Penrose, the three of them really understand the skeptical objections and have answered all of them. Stuart Hammerof has debated some of the most powerful and angriest materialists of all time ( Dan Dennet and Patricia Churchland).
Also Steve Novella once boasted that Quantum Physics has no effect on the Macro world, he is wrong: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=living-in-a-quantum-world
I have been banned twice from Steve Novellas blog and three times from PZ Meyers.
PZ Meyers and his devotess can't stand people questioning Atheism.
Thanks also Юкинов, the article you sent is very helpful, i have not finished reading it yet. I didn't know there was such powerful resources available for free, thank you Юкинов and Kris.
Also thanks for explaining the meaning of your name, very nice.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 07:02 PM
http://tinyurl.com/64n8l8b
The Lorber Study
Posted by: Kris | July 03, 2011 at 07:11 PM
Thank you Kris, look at this, this is depressing, PZ Meyers said nothing will convince him of the existence of God, very painful to read this:
The nature of this god is always vague and undefined and most annoyingly, plastic — suggest a test and it is always redefined safely away from the risk. Furthermore, any evidence of a deity will be natural, repeatable, measurable, and even observable…properties which god is exempted from by the believers' own definitions, so there can be no evidence for it. And any being who did suddenly manifest in some way — a 900 foot tall Jesus, for instance — would not fit any existing theology, so such a creature would not fit the claims of any religion, but the existence of any phenomenon that science cannot explain would not discomfit science at all, since we know there is much we don't understand already, and adding one more mystery to the multitude will not faze us in the slightest.
So yes, I agree. There is no valid god hypothesis, so there can be no god evidence, so let's stop pretending the believers have a shot at persuading us.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 07:17 PM
People like PZ Meyers will never accept any evidence, i give up on him.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 07:19 PM
Don't worry about the PZ Myers of the world. Assuming their a higher power it does not feel the need to force itself on us, assuming there is some life after death it does not seem it feels the need to 100% go out of it way to force itself on us.
They have a right to their views, but just take them with a grain ( many grains) of salt. And certainly do not believe they are the disinterested observers of truth they claim to be.
The best any person can do is study the evidence available to them and try to make an informed decision.
Posted by: Kris | July 03, 2011 at 07:38 PM
Thank you Kris for your wise words.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 07:54 PM
You really shouldn't focus so much time on trying to remove the sliver or dust-particle out of the eyes of another until you have first removed the logs from your own. Even then...salvation is a personal-responsibility. I will hold my comments about «God» until later since it is rather lengthy.
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 07:58 PM
Thank you Юкинов for your wise words, but PZ Meyers is really mean spirited.
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 03, 2011 at 08:26 PM
"http://tinyurl.com/64n8l8b
The Lorber Study"
A small synchronicity, I was listening to this SSE Talks presentation http://tinyurl.com/64n8l8b and heard Bruce Greyson say the word Lorber at the same time I read the word from your post.
Posted by: sam | July 03, 2011 at 11:03 PM
How is he mean to you ? Just forgive and read this...
Disciples of God in Action
Posted by: Юкинов | July 03, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Thank you my dear friend, is the person speaking in that text Jesus?
Posted by: Atheistic Materialism is a fact | July 04, 2011 at 01:24 AM
Interesting blog and comments and I'm glad I've found this site. I'll be the first person to admit that other peoples' stories about near death experiences, mediums alleged communications with afterlife entities, automatic writings, past life recalls just to name a few are not enough to convince me that mind and brain are seperate, by themselves, especially in a world where there is money to be made from such claims. However, I don't believe that every event described above is entirely fraudulent either. I will admit that it was my own personal experiences that have convinced me that death is not the end but instead is a change from one experience to another.
I also think that many people such as Victor Zammitt, Bruce Moen and others sugarcoat the reality of the afterlife by not putting an emphasis on the negative experiences. According to them only the worst of the worst go to the lowest spheres upon death while 90% of us will go directly to the third sphere known as the summerlands. I've read enough stories about NDE's, automatic writings and mediumship communications with afterlife entities to know that this is far from the truth. It is very clear that at least half of all people upon death will not go to the 'light'.
This is very important because I think that people are being deceived by wishful thinkers here. It is not necessarily your actions themselves that determine what plane you end up on after death but it is your state of mind that determines where you will gravitate to. This doesn't seem fair to me since not all of us are dealt the same hand upon birth and through our life experiences but regardless it does seem like this is the case the more and more I've read about these events (hundreds of books and thousands of internet articles). Actions do matter, or even lack of, but thoughts seem to be the biggest deciding factor upon determining where you will end up after this life is up.
I've come to this conclusion since I've read way too many stories of hellish experiences that were experienced by those who had lived a very decent life, never harmed others and even many who seemed to have had a knack caring for others. Nobody is perfect and we all have our shortcomings but these people, from reading their life stories seemed like they were definitely more decent than not. There did seem to be a correlation here with decent people who suffered a hellish ordeal in that they had many problems in their lives that had caused them to have a negative mindset. I had also read alot of stories about people who did many bad things to others but ended up in the light after death and the one thing I had found in common with these cases was that their victims had forgiven them and since they had an overall more positive mindset while alive, except for the few times they slipped, they had a much more positive experience after death.
It does seem that hell is not just reserved for the evil, greedy or selfish. Hell is also occupied by those who have had a negative mindset due to a rough life. Again the only exceptions are those who were very evil, very greedy or those who had done no direct harm to others but rarely or never had done an unconditional act of kindness to another person. Apparentely your mind can only occupy the plane on which it would be the most comfortable and in the afterlife others see you for what you really are since your aurora shows your true character. In the end no one sends you anywhere it seems but you also can't fool yourself so you end up by natural law in a 'place' where your etheric body can safely occupy until you work your way up towards the light. No one is forsaken it seems but progress is not a gaurantee either since it is allegedly much more difficult to increase your vibrational level in your etheric body.
Zammitt, Moen, Silver Birch (alleged spiritual teacher) and others are wrong here, most 'average decent' people do not go directly to the light upon death but will end up in one of the many subplanes of the lower spheres either in the gray or darker sections. If you don't believe me research this for yourselves and I would also look up Dr. Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, who was a former atheist turned Christian, discovered that most of his patients had hellish NDE's, so much so that many were afraid to talk about them in detail. I'm not religious but like I've said above, mindset seems to mean everything, not faith or actions as much.
Suicides and reincarnation are grayish areas for me but if you're sceptical of an afterlife existence then what I've posted should be irrelevant to you anyway. Sometimes I hope that atheists are right since this life has been a very rough one for me despite trying my best to be a good person. Yes this life has been bad enough and the thought of an even much worse post life existence after this one is not very appealing to me. Reincarnation is not very appealing to me either. Oblivion in a sense does seem like a much better alternative to me compared to an 'afterlife'. Unfortunately however I sense physicalists are wrong on this one and it seems that we are all some part of a twisted cosmic experiment. I've had enough personally.
Posted by: Jabie Scorski | July 04, 2011 at 04:20 AM
Hear his words in audio from the Last Hour Interview and let me/us know if it legitimately sounds like it is him.
Posted by: Юкинов | July 04, 2011 at 07:42 AM
@JS: A spirit communicator once said:
"Thoughts produce actions and actions produce consequences".
Silver Birch (alleged spiritual teacher) and others are wrong here,
Why alleged Jabie?
All the spirit contacts I've made over the last fifty years confirm that what SB states is correct.
Posted by: Zerdini | July 04, 2011 at 07:58 AM