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NDE of a soldier?Interesting.
I've read spiritualistic accounts of people dying on the battlefield during world war 2,this case kinda reminds me of them.

Instead when killed people would be acting frantic,running around still thinking they're alive,unable to seperate realities from eachother due to the chaos.

I think it's veridical accounts like these NDE's that best present evidence for consiousness surviving during NDE.Obviously in a more controlled environement.

The AWARE study seems to be doing this along with the targets and much more.
If observations such as these are considered "hits" it would mean the Aware study has much more chance of providing positive results without the need of verifying targets only counted as "hits".

Imagine such details as reported by this NDE could be caught by videocamera's,speech and all.I don't know if the ethical implications would be controversial,but certainly the objectivity of the situation would be improved to avoid the "its just an anecdote debunking".

I imagine the future of NDE research will be pretty interesting.

If this guy was able to spot a scar on someone's head then they should be able to spot a playing card as with the AWARE study - X marks the spot!

Then again, scarman was directly involved in the events described above and this is why the man notes his description. You will notice that he is not concerned with the minutae of detail of the suroundings for example, mainly because he has more important concerns.

This is why I think that the AWARE study is not going to prove or disprove anything really.

How many people having a full blown NDE and observing their body in a full arrest situation are going to be distracted enough to be looking at a small playing card somewhere up near the ceiling?

"This is why I think that the AWARE study is not going to prove or disprove anything really."

The AWARE study won't study only how many people managed to see those targets when being clinically dead.

If im not mistaken the AWARE study will also be measuring oxygen levels in the brains of patients during cardiac arrest and considering all parts of the NDE experience.
Not only who did or did not see hidden targets.

The AWARE study supposedly will do much much more as well,and hopefully provide many more "Denture men" and "Pam Reynolds" sort of cases that to me if properly corroberated with good details is pretty sweet evidence.

"If this guy was able to spot a scar on someone's head then they should be able to spot a playing card as with the AWARE study - X marks the spot!" - douglas
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Some of the NDEs that I've read seem to suggest that the deceased had tunnel vision as they were looking back at their body on the table. Almost like looking through a rifle scope. Perhaps it's designed that way for a reason. Those beings of light on the other side want you to look back on your body and realize you are dead? There is something about knowing you are dead, and that you are out of your body that facilitates the transition to the other side, traveling through the tunnel into the light? It's almost like a formula. Step 1, step 2, step 3, etc.

Even the person who looked back and saw the top of the surgery light and saw that it was dirty was in the process of looking at his/her body and seeing the dust and dirt on top of the surgery light was a by-product of looking back at the body - to bring about something else.

We (the collective "we") are only allowed hints that this life is not all there is and that something else comes after. I believe there is a reason for that. If those beings of light wanted to they could expose the whole process allow everyone to "KNOW" collectively that there is life after death and we survive the death of our physical body. Perhaps that is not part of the plan?

Art, I don't think looking back at one's body is a feature purposefully designed to instill a lesson or understanding, let alone by beings of light.

I know when I have had OBEs (not NDEs) I have seen my body from a distance as have many others undergoing non-life threatening separation of consciousness and physical body. So your proposed theory of why an NDE would contain this feature doesn't make sense in the case of OBEs, but there it is.

There are thousands of these cases. If you read it slowly and put yourself in their position you cannot succesfully make the case for it being some kind of brain hallucination.

andrew zimmern's bizarre food/world is one of shows i watch regularly.

i'm particularly affected by one episode where he went to Kalahari and spent time with a remote tribe. at the end of the show, he participated a ritual with them and i found his experience very inspiring and real..

Zimmern's Book excerpt on the experience

read page 232-236....

in all his shows i've watched, he never appeared to be a religious man, but he's always respectful of other culture and beliefs... he would point out things that he thinks it's just pure superstition or phony.. but his experience at the ritual had genuinely changed him- just like how NDE affected people...

A whole lot of "ifs" have to be blowing into your sails to make materialistic headway against THAT sort of case, and the fact that there are so MANY such stories makes the voyage harder, not easier.

To the commentator who commented that these are hallucinations, how could so many people report having the same hallucination? They're not reporting wild, off-the-wall experiences and pink elephants, they're reporting a strikingly similar sequence of events.

The commentator left this forum after his arguments about Pam Reynolds went up in smoke :)

Kathleen
I am not saying I agree with them but a materialist might argue that the reason the 'hallucination' is similar is because we share a common physiology and similar stimuli cause similar effects.

The content of the experience in this case however is what seems to me to be important. The source, nature of the experience and the quality (albeit subjective) of the report itself seem to me to make the OBE/NDE explanation the best fit unless one rejects such an explanation as inherently impossible (as materialists do).

One thing I find interesting about NDEs is that almost invariably any communication that takes place in them is described as "telepathic." Even small children will say that people talked without speaking aloud.

It seems most unlikely that this detail would be hardwired into the human psyche, yet it crops up again and again.

"One thing I find interesting about NDEs is that almost invariably any communication that takes place in them is described as "telepathic." Even small children will say that people talked without speaking aloud." - Michael Prescott
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It's a holographic universe connectedness and oneness thing. When the soul leaves the body it is connected to the holographic film, the place that our reality, the "holographic projection" or "hologram" is projected from.

Same thing as during the life review literally feeling like they become the other person, feeling their emotions and hearing their thoughts, 360 degree vision, all knowledge, seeing the past, present, and future all at once, communicating by "boluses of information", feeling of connectedness and oneness, literally feeling like they are everywhere in the universe at once, and overwhelming love, etc. The life review is a holographic experience par excellence according to Dr. Ken Ring.

"One thing I find interesting about NDEs is that almost invariably any communication that takes place in them is described as "telepathic."

Michael, it's a good point to bring up with someone who argues that the NDE is merely a vivid dream. I mean, how often does telepathy substitute for talking in dreams? Not all that commonly, it seems to me.

Another repeating motif in NDE's is how people react when they see themselves for the first time, out-of-body. But shucks, I wrote about that on this blog once before and no one seemed interested. Any takers this time around? :o)

Here's what I said:

"I was just reading an NDE account today (Alexa Hartung) and saw this:

'The next thing I knew I had lifted out of my body and was looking at myself! A bit surprised, I said, "Gee, I don't look so bad!" All my life I had felt large and fat compared to my 5', 100 lb. sister. As I now saw myself, I looked different from what I thought I’d seen in the mirror.'

I've seen that basic idea expressed countless times in NDE accounts. Again and again, people are surprised at how they look when they see themselves for the first time while out of body.

This strikes me as a counter-argument to Susan Blackmore's "mental model" theory. She says that during an NDE, because we have no actual visual input, we "see" an imaginary world based on what we expect to see or have seen before.

Then why are people always surprised at their appearance? And surprised in precisely the way you'd expect them to be, because seeing yourself in 3D is, in fact, different from seeing yourself in the mirror.

Anyway, there's no proof here, but it's a very suggestive piece of evidence I've thought about often. What do you all think?"

So folks, if you don't want to see this here again, now's you're chance to respond. :o)

(After struggling to track down that little tidbit, I finally found it by googling "bruce siegel" "michael prescott" "mental model". Cool how you can do that.)

Interesting point, Bruce. I don't know if people who visualize themselves using a mental model report being surprised by what they see. It seems counterintuitive that they would.

In addition, many NDErs see themselves in a very debilitated condition - desperately ill, wounded, etc. - and report being surprised at how wasted and forlorn their bodies look. This doesn't seem to fit any preconceived mental model that was presumably built up subconsciously during healthier times.

BTW, you can search this site specifically by using the Google tool at the left side of this screen.

Yes, it’s a good point Bruce. There is very little self-reflexivity in ordinary dreams (but some in lucid dreams). Where NDErs claim the experience to be “more real than everyday life”, they claim a higher level of self-consciousness, though attention is not necessarily directed towards the physical body.

What surprises me is how rarely NDErs or OBErs spend time investigating or describing their new light body. Perhaps this is why Susan Blackmore thinks NDEs and OBEs are primarily mental experiences (whatever that means).

"you can search this site specifically by using the Google tool at the left side of this screen."

Thanks. I forgot about that!

You are pure consciousness and in a holographic universe each part contains the whole and each piece contains all the information of the whole. This is why Mark Horton said he literally felt like he was everywhere in the universe at once. They feel like they are the universe.

That is why there is no body. The physics of the other side is very different from this side. The whole point of this life is to learn what it's like to be in a body, to be separate, what time and space look and feel like, and make memories of what it was like to be limited to a physical body. The only way pure consciousness can know that is if at some point it had experienced it.

Researchers use virtual-reality avatars to create 'out-of-body' experience

"Volunteers experienced the virtual bodies as if they were their own, with possible applications in computer games or to transport people digitally to other locations"

art wrote:
That is why there is no body.

Strange that spirit communicators all say they have a body! They should know as they are living in it.

Perhaps when the soul first comes out of the physical body it is rather amorphous and undefined but after it has moved into the light it acquires a body? I'm only speculating here you understand. I have no hard and fast beliefs on this point.

Or you have a body if you choose to have a body. Perhaps heaven is ideoplastic and you have whatever body you choose to have? As in "thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality?"

My niece had an ADC dream with her father after he died and in the dream he told her that the body they found wasn't his real body and he was in his real body now.

I had a dream withe my father that I believe was probably an ADC dream and in the dream my deceased father said to me "Guess what Artie? I'm 28!" Which leads me to believe that perhaps when my father was 28 years old that was his "best" time of life? I don't know?

Also Pam Reynold's said that the people she saw looked their best.

"Everyone I saw, looking back on it, fit perfectly into my understanding of what that person looked like at their best during their lives."
http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Art is right that NDErs very frequently report seeing their deceased loved ones looking young and healthy, "at their best." This poses another problem for the hallucination hypothesis. Why would people necessarily imagine their loved ones this way?

When I think of deceased relatives, I remember them as they looked in their later years, because those memories are the most recent. I would have trouble recalling what they looked like when they were young. It seems unlikely that I would hallucinate young, healthy images of people whom I consciously remember as older and more careworn - people I may not have even known when they were young.

This could make an interesting post - a list of all the (unverifiable, but reasonably consistent) things NDErs report that don't dovetail with the hallucination hypothesis.

The telepathic feature is interesting - it isn't something we ever (well maybe) do, at least consciously, in real life - so why would we do it in and NDE if it was a hallucination or dream - if I have understood the point you are making Michael?

Having said that, in dreams/hallucination folk often report doing things that they don't do in 'real life' though - such as flying unaided or may be convinced they have supernormal powers.

Perhaps the most important element is still the verifiable elements rather than the qualitative nature of the experience?

What surprises me is how rarely NDErs or OBErs spend time investigating or describing their new light body.

When I had my NDE, everything seemed so normal, like I was home. I didn't feel like I had become something new and different. I felt like I was going back to normal.

"Perhaps the most important element is still the verifiable elements"

I think the verifiable observations are the most important element, but the other observations are interesting in two respects: a) they show a fair degree of consistency, and b) they are not necessarily what we would expect from hallucinations.

Regarding dreams where we are flying, I sometimes think these may actually be garbled memories of OBEs that occurred during sleep. I admit this could be seen as question-begging, though. (I.e., I'm saying dreams are different from OBEs, and then if someone reports a dream that was similar to an OBE, I say it was "really" an OBE in disguise. Not the greatest logic. But I've had some flying - or more often, floating - dreams, and FWIW they "felt" like OBEs to me.)

The most important element to me is the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory. There is also a connection between NDEs and quantum physics.

The consistency element is interesting, this suggests perhaps that the experience is 'real' in the sense that we are having some kind of experience, though as far as I can see it doesn't clearly identify the nature of it or its source.

If OBEs and dreams are both possible I wonder how we can distinguish between the two other than through verifiable observations? Even then I suppose there are dreams which seem to be clairvoyant or even premonitions, so perhaps there are different types of dream. Curiouser and curiouser yes? :)

My understanding is that hallucinations are something different from dreams though I can't say in what way exactly.

To my layman's eyes, the more I read, the more complex and unfathomable consciousness seems to be unless one accepts a dualistic view of the world.

"Regarding dreams where we are flying, I sometimes think these may actually be garbled memories of OBEs that occurred during sleep."

I've had OBE's during sleep,way too many lucid dreams and I can say unlike many people who experience what they do for various reasons I sometimes don't know on which side of the fence to sit.

Some Obe's(during sleep) have aspects so realistic that you want to believe its the afterlife,but other aspects so filled of fantasy that you cannot draw a definite conclusion.

More then once the thought crossed my mind that OBE's(during sleep) and maybe even dreams are a mix of brain activity and leaving the body while this happens.

I've got no evidence,nor proof ofcourse but from my experience I can say the following:

Even the deepest OBE's,lucid dreams have a mixed bag of realistic happenings and unrealistic.Opening doors in the house like you would in real life for instance would not happen presumably if you're a spirit.

But leaving the body during an OBE during sleep feels like literally breaking your spirit apart from the body and stepping out of the body.

I can't draw a conclusion but i'm certainly humpty dumpty.

If OBE's do occur(unconsiously) during sleep the rabbit hole is way way too deep to understand by current science.

"What surprises me is how rarely NDErs or OBErs spend time investigating or describing their new light body. "

I made a serious effort to do this while undergoing OBEs. Twice I focussed my will to move in front of a large standing mirror. I experienced tremendous apprehension, but when I forced myself to look into the mirror, I saw nothing other than the ordinary reflection of the room.

On other occassions I consciously tried to look at my "hands" or "feet' - like you would do in ordinary waking life. Again, I saw nothing; even though I had some vague perception that I still possessed the appendages. There was only the ground or air.

However, one time I was in an aggetated frame of mind. A girlfriend and I had begun drifting apart and I wanted the relationship to continue. I sensed she was seeing someone else. This was one time when I elected to use my OBE abilities for sinister purposes. I decided to travel out of body and spy on her. I floated out of body and began to focus on the route to her apartment. I grew more angry by the second and by the time I was half way there, I had become totally out of control irrational; furious. I could see my limbs and they were hairy and I had claws. I had assumed the body of a wolf. I was a werewolf! I was so shocked and horrified by this that it snapped me out of my mission and I had an intense need to stop the experience. Moments later I was back in my body. I experienced a paralysis for a few minutes(?) and then snapped out of it and back into normal waking consciousness; sweating, heart racing and afraid of myself.

That has always made me wonder if the tails of skin walkers and such are not based on some similar form of OBE activity.

"I had assumed the body of a wolf. I was a werewolf! I was so shocked and horrified by this that it snapped me out of my mission and I had an intense need to stop the experience. Moments later I was back in my body. I experienced a paralysis for a few minutes(?) and then snapped out of it and back into normal waking consciousness; sweating, heart racing and afraid of myself."

What you describe is sleep paralysis.
Sphere or looks changing due to emotion is a typical thing of dreams.Especially where you put your focus on.

OBE's during dreams can be so misleading because they are even MORE lucid then lucid dreams but when you really get into it there are too many irregularities to consider it a real OBE such as during NDE's.

I recently had an OBE and I wasn't dreaming. I had been sitting in a chair and crocheting. It suddenly occurred to me that I was not in my body, but looking at the crochet work from a different angle than I should have been able to. I noticed a mistake in the work from that angle that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. It didn't last long and I was back to normal. I found the mistake in the work when I checked for it.

Bryan A. , weird as it sounds, I think the experience was more than just sleep paralysis and ordinary dreaming. I have had a number of OBEs that passed what I like to think is very rigorous testing of 'real' versus dreaming/coincidence/other normal explanation situation. Often an OBE begins with and/or ends with paralysis. In fact, the paralysis state can be a lead in to an OBE if I can relax and overcome the fear that the paralysis causes. I have read about hypnogocic imagery occuring during sleep paralysis. I am not talking about that. I am talking about actual events happening beyond the physical location of my body - and sometimes future events - that I could not possibly have normal knowledge of, but saw and later verified as actually having happened.

I agree that things are weird in OBE's during sleep.
The reality,your room for instance might look so realistic that it's easy to mistake for reality until you spot the chair thats not on the right place.

Hypnogogic imagery happened before sleep paralysis with me,being able to wild means being able to consiously experience the imagery passing through sleep paralysis and a whole bunch of other feelings when you "seperate from the body".Floating above the body is one thing that also happened with me,but focusing on my body did not reveal an accurate depiction of myself.

After the 1st and 2nd OBE during sleep I had I wanted to believe just like you that it's real because it sure as hell felt like it.

Oh and I also had 1 future vision during one "OBE",text was visible in a dream and I could read a story on paper which happened after a few months.

Still I feel the veridical perception obtained during NDE is way different then OBE's that I read,it does not include the famous combination of white light,tunnel vision,seeying dead relatives or any of the other things.

I would love to see people try out OBE's during sleep and guess digits correctly written somewhere in the room.

In the meanwhile i'll believe it's dreams as numbers and letters are usually changing in dreams and so far that i'm aware no real experiment/study has validated OBE's during dreams are what the word implies.

I may sound like a skeptic all around when I say that,but I accept various other kinds of evidence of parapsychology,i'm just very skeptikal with this particular area due mainly to extensive personal experience.

"no real experiment/study has validated OBE's during dreams"

Charles Tart's experiment with Miss Z seems to meet your requirements, though further replication would have made it a stronger case.

http://www.psychwww.com/asc/obe/missz.html

Tnx for the link.
I will certainly check it out.

"no real experiment/study has validated OBE's during dreams"

From Life after Death by Karlis Osis, Ph.D., at http://www.aspr.com/osis.html.

"There are cases on record where one or two external observers "see" the person experiencing an OBE as an apparition at the same time as the person experiences himself as visiting the observers (Landau, 1963).
In very rare cases animals also have been reported to react to the OBE apparition. Only experiments with gifted subjects have been suggestive. In one experiment, a kitten in the laboratory was measurably quieter at randomly selected intervals when its master made OBE "visits" (Morris et al, 1978). In another experiment, strain gauge measures in the projection area gave some indications of OBE presence (Osis and McCormick, 1980). Experiments with unselected subjects usually give no indications suggesting that anything "goes out" during OBE.
"

Refs:
Landau, L. (1963). An unusual out-of-body experience. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 42, 126-28
Morris, R.L., Harary, S.B., Janis, J., Hartwell, J., and Roll, W.G. (1978). Studies in communication during out-of-body experiences. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 72, 1 -22.
Osis, K., and McCormick, D. (1980). Kinetic effects at the ostensible location of an out-of-body projection during perceptual testing. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 74, 319-29

There is some research with EEGs taken during OBEs that seems to show that OBEs are not lucid dreaming (no REM, for instance), but a variety of distinct different states of consciousness, different with different subjects.

Charles Tart's experiment with Miss Z seems to meet your requirements, though further replication would have made it a stronger case.

The Miss Z case is very weak - in fact there is good reasons to believe they cheated.

First, given the structure of the experiment, there were multiple chances for the participant to inadvertently be exposed to the "random" number (even though the chances of that happening are very small). The design would have been stronger if the "random" number were selected by a third party previous to the experiment and if it were placed in a location where it could not be read by either the participant or the researcher. This is called a "double-blind" experiment.

Second, it would be pretty simple to set up a video camera in a room to monitor the participant's movements during the night. This would help to eliminate fears of cheating or peaking.

Third, it's not clear why he didn't try to repeat this experiment to increase it's validity.

There was no opportunity for the test subject to see the number unless she glimpsed its reflection in the face of a clock on the wall, a possibility Tart noted, but which is extremely unlikely given that the room was dimly lit and the faint (reversed) reflection could be seen only when the note was strongly illuminated.

Tart didn't follow up because Miss Z moved out of state. She seems also to have been unenthusiastic about continuing as a subject.

Video cameras were a lot harder to come by in those days than they are now. Such equipment was expensive, unwieldy, and required technical proficiency to use.

If by "they cheated," you mean Tart, then say so outright and provide evidence. Tart has never been seriously accused of fraud at any time in his long career. I'm frankly tired of armchair skeptics making libelous accusations without a shred of proof.

Just to add some detail to my last comment, I'd note that the Miss Z experiments were conducted in the mid 1960s and were published in 1968. Video equipment was hard to obtain in those days, and since the lab was kept dark so Miss Z could sleep, a camera wouldn't have shown anything anyway, unless infrared gear was used - and that was even rarer.

Moreover, it is simply untrue that Miss Z had opportunities to see the number surreptitiously. Tart did not choose the number until after Miss Z was in bed, hooked up to the EEG machine. He selected it in another room, wrote it down, placed it in an opaque envelope, and only slipped it out of the envelope when he put it in an inaccessible location in the lab. Miss Z could not get up to look at the note because she would have had to disengage from the EEG, and this interruption would have shown up on the printout. (This also negates any possible need for a video camera, as the EEG alone would have been enough to detect any walkabout on Miss Z's part.)

I have no idea why you put the word random in quotes, as if to suggest that the number was not really random. Tart selected it by opening a book of random numbers and arbitrarily picking whatever number his finger landed on. That was the normal procedure for picking a random number in the days before random number generators. He selected a different number each time, of course.

Finally, double blind procedures are well known in parapsychology. In fact, they were actually pioneered by parapsychologists. But a double blind procedure in this case would have served no purpose, unless you think Tart was imbecilic enough to blurt out the number while placing it in the lab.

I do wonder about the telepathic communication thing being prevalent in NDEs, I think speech is the most natural way of communication between human beings and anything else would be hard to imagine. When I dream at night, this has been the only way I've communicated with people, but the way NDE'ers describe telepathic communication seems almost beyond the human condition, there is no speech (you aren't even imagining people talking I assume) and is instantaneous. For a short phrase, I could see that but a longer "conversation" or one with complex concepts would just blow my mind, especially if you instantly "knew".

Bryan, I agree that OBEs during sleep or induced during sleep paralysis can have some murky unreal dream like features. However, they also can have some pure real psychic features as well. I have often wondered what the connection is.

I believe the sleep paralysis state can be the door to psychic experiences. You will have to take my word for this and assume that I have better things to do with my time than sit around misleading people on a sincere blog like this one.

One of the experiences that convinced me of the realness of the this sort of thing took place many years ago (in the early '80s). I was in sleep paralysis and I'd thought I'd attempt to launch an OBE. Instead of the usual separation sensations I thought I had just woken up because the phone starting ringing. I thought I got up out of bed and answered the phone. I said "hello". There was a woman with a thick African American accent asking, in a somewhat panicked sounding voice, if "William" was there. I replied that she had the wrong number. She said she was sorry and hung up.

A moment later I found myself back in bed. I realized that I had not been awake and that there had not been a phone call. Just then the phone started ringing. Fully awake I got up and answered the phone.....and yep.....it was the same woman, same accent, same tone, asking for "Bill" (slight nuanced difference).

Now I was in college in Tucson, AZ and didn't have any AF friends. There really weren't many in the entire town, the dominant minority being Hispanic. My name is not Bill/William. rarely received phone calls from anyone accept my parents once in a blue moon and my girl friend. Other than my girlfriend (not AF), I maybe got a call once every two weeks. Friends and I usually just met up in informal ways at locations around campus. I can't remember ever getting another wrong number call in the three or four years I had that number and at that point I had had that number for at least two years. This was before phone solicitation became ubiquitous. I didn't hand out my phone number to people because that was not how I did things socially.

The number of correlations - exact matches/hits actually - between the OBE and the actual call are too great to write off as mere coincidence. I mean, it could be an extremely low probability coincidence, but combined with several other similar experiences of the same nature, I became a believer in the psi explanation.

At any rate, I didn't mean to divert the conversation, but just seeking to lend some credibility to my statement made earlier that I was never able to "see" my astral body except one time when I was angry and it, apparently, took the form of a wolf (which is as embarassing as it was personally disturbing and I offer here as part of the puzzle that we are all seeking to understand).

Aftrbrnr, telepathic communication happens in OBEs too. When I have experienced it, it is more of a knowing than an actual conversation in which things have to be spelled out in a logical progression. It's like a direct connection to the truth that is contained in - or that is - another being. It's a whole different processing mechanism.

High doses of psychedelic drugs can also produce this effect, though I won't go any further into that particular topic out of respect to our host's sensibilities concerning it.

Words at best dance around reality. They are never actually it. If you had never tasted ice cream we could talk about it all day long and you would develop a concept of what ice cream is like without ever really understanding. However, if I took you to an ice cream parlor and sat you down with 31 flavors in front of and a spoon and let you dig in, you would understand ice cream fully within a matter of minutes. The brain, particularly in our modern information age, as a filter tool designed to maximize physical survival potential, relies on words to process input. The soul doesn't haven't a brain, filters less, and obtains information through a more efficient direct access method (that I don't understand enough to elaborate on).

""I got up and answered the phone.....and yep.....it was the same woman""

Thanks for sharing this experience, no one. Precognition through dreams is one of my favorite topics, and yours is a great example.

I was what you might call a militant skeptic before I began reading about NDE's around 1990. Gradually, I began to open to the possibility of psychic phenomena, but a for a few years, I straddled the fence, not sure if all the stuff I was reading about was valid or just wishful thinking.

One evening, on a TV show, I saw a virtual replay of a quirky, vivid dream I had had the night before. Happily, I had taken the time to record the dream as soon as I woke up, because I was beginning to suspect that I was, in fact, having precognitive dreams.

That was a turning point for me, and I knew that I had just passed the "maybe yes, maybe no" point. From that point on, if I had to bet my money on whether or not psychic phenomena were real, I knew I had to go with a yes.

So I love to have these dreams, and I love to hear about them. Over the years, they've helped me to know that the universe is more mysterious and beautiful than the reductionists would have us believe.

And by the way, the particular sequence of events you just described is a very familiar one to me: the last dream I have before waking often presages something I will see or read moments later.

Interesting comments on this thread!
Regarding the idea of an astral body (referring to posts by by Bryan A, no one, Sandy & nbtruthman):
I can certainly imagine that in an OBE you ‘undress’ from your body, but can dress up (eg as a wolfman!) depending on emotional state or expectation. So far so good. Hard, though, to escape the belief that the conscious experiencer must retain some sort of real, objective (albeit malleable) form -how can there be coherent identity without it?

During an OBE, when looking in a mirror, are we looking in a physical mirror or an astral mirror? If a physical mirror, we see nothing physical… if an astral mirror..?

Perhaps the form in an OBE can only manifest as an apparition at best because the main current vehicle (the physical body) is still alive and in bed?

"Bryan, I agree that OBEs during sleep or induced during sleep paralysis can have some murky unreal dream like features. However, they also can have some pure real psychic features as well. I have often wondered what the connection is."

One of the thoughts I had was just like yours.
Especially because in 1 OBE I also saw the future like you.

It's that connection that you mention that I believe is the key to understanding the phenomena.

Perhaps experiencing OBE ( during sleep) with brainactivity is what keeps us from experiencing OBE's like people that experience NDE's(without brainactivity) do and make them more similar to some NDE's that is filled with "fantasy" "dream" happenings.Not to say they're the same,just comparing the phenomena.


"Perhaps experiencing OBE ( during sleep) with brainactivity is what keeps us from experiencing OBE's like people that experience NDE's(without brainactivity) do and make them more similar to some NDE's that is filled with "fantasy" "dream" happenings.Not to say they're the same,just comparing the phenomena."

I like that idea. I think there may be something to it!

Thanks for the appreciation, Bruce.

If by "they cheated," you mean Tart, then say so outright and provide evidence. Tart has never been seriously accused of fraud at any time in his long career. I'm frankly tired of armchair skeptics making libelous accusations without a shred of proof.

Bernard Madoff was also a very respected individual until it was realised his entire investment business was one big fraud.

I have no evidence that Tart cheated, but since nobody has been able to reproduce his experiment a healthy sceptical thought is that the Miss Z thing didn't happen. It's very common every year at universities around the world scientists are caught cheating with their research.

The examples are numerous, a few examples are:

Jan Hendrik Schön, researcher at Bell Labs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6n_scandal

Steven A. Leadon researcher at University of North Carolina, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_A._Leadon

Victor Ninov, researcher at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Ninov

The list goes on and on. There is a great pressure on scientists to produce scientific results - that's actually how they earn their pay. It's difficult to explain you spent 10 years researching something and then in the end you discovered nothing to report on at all.

"I have no evidence that Tart cheated, but since nobody has been able to reproduce his experiment a healthy sceptical thought is that the Miss Z thing didn't happen."

Sbu, I don't claim to know about the validity of Tart's experiment, or whether or not it has been replicated. (Though I have read some of Tart's writing and have never had the slightest reason to doubt his integrity.)

But the essence of his experiment is this: it focuses on the ability to retrieve information without the use of the physical senses. And the evidence for that, both in and out of the lab, is vast and compelling.

ut the essence of his experiment is this: it focuses on the ability to retrieve information without the use of the physical senses. And the evidence for that, both in and out of the lab, is vast and compelling.

It's a subjective evaluation if it's compelling or not. It's one of those things that isn't black or white - otherwise it would be obviosuly for anyone to see.

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