Thought for the new year

Here's an interesting excerpt from Alson J. Smith's 1954 book Immortality: The Scientific Evidence. 

As the title suggests, the bulk of Smith's book is devoted to presenting evidence for postmortem survival and related issues as gathered by psychical researchers and parapsychologists over the previous 75 years. Smith cites many interesting cases, including Hodgson's work with Leonora Piper, Drayton Thomas's "book tests" with Gladys Leonard, the famous "Chaffin will" episode, the cross correspondences, Pearl Curran ("Patience Worth"), J.W. Dunne's precognitive dreams, and J.B. Rhine's lab work on ESP and PK. The book is a little dated in its treatment of anthropological material, but overall it's an intelligent, well-researched presentation that serves as a very good introduction to this subject.

Toward the end, Smith widens his focus to consider the existence of God. He offers a section on scientific arguments from design that were current at the time. Then he goes on:

But our subject here is immortality. We have shown that science, or at any rate many scientists, has come to believe in God through an awareness of design in the universe. But does this belief in God necessarily postulate a belief in immortality?

Yes. Human consciousness is too great an accomplishment to be snuffed out as though it had never been after less than one brief century of existence. As [physicist and Nobel laureate Pierre Lecomte] du Nouy has shown, the whole end of the evolutionary process to date, proceeding slowly through eons, has been the achievement of consciousness. And consciousness (spiritual component, soul, mind) is a singular of which there is no plural, as Dr. Erwin Schroedinger, of the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies, points out in his book What Is Life?

A God, who, having bestowed the gift of consciousness on His creation, should then capriciously limit it or make it subject to accident or happenstance, would certainly not be the God of the intricate and majestic design of nature. Even less would He be the God who is very name is a contraction of the word Good. 

Also, unless immortality is a fact, then God is in much the same position as the operator of a dog race, who entices the animals to run by keeping an electrically operated mechanical rabbit a few feet in front of them. In that case, the hope of eternity would be the deceptive gadget that keeps the human race plunging down its allotted three score years and ten. We may sometimes think (as many profess) that men would lead as good, honest, ethical lives without the hope of immortality as they do with it, but we would be guilty of overestimating man as a biological animal. Deprive him of his soul and his expectation, however faint, of its survival of bodily death, and you will have cut the nerve that gives meaning to life. Life would go on, but it would be an empty thing if we believed that there were no values that were not transitory and no morality that was not relative. The divine sanction that gives life significance would disappear with positive assurance that life ends in the grave or the crematorium.

I have pointed out earlier that most men do not believe in immortality merely on the basis of philosophical and religious affirmation of it, that they do not live actively as though it were a fact. This is true, but they do not live in disbelief of it either. If they do not believe it any longer because philosophers and theologians tell them it is so, neither have they given it up altogether as a vestigial remnant of an outmoded Age of Faith. What they (we) are doing is living in a sort of a state of suspended judgment about it, afraid to disbelieve and yet lacking the scientific knowledge (the only kind we have any faith in) to affirm. Thus we live at half-speed, failing to realize our spiritual potentialities, but keeping just ahead of bleak Nihilism.

Finally, also as indicated before, it is impossible to postulate a moral God without at the same time postulating another life beyond this one, a life in which there is some opportunity to correct the manifold injustices of this existence....

No, the immortality of the spiritual component, the individual human soul, is the inevitable corollary of a belief in God, no matter by what route we come to that belief. When Dr. J. B. Rhine made his memorable statement in Town Hall* that "The soul theory has been confirmed," he followed it with another statement. "In a similar speculative way, we can now at least rationally conceive of the existence of a universal spirit equivalent to the modern conception of God." [pp. 170--173]

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*The talk cited is "The Relation Between Psychology and Religion," broadcast from Town Hall, New York, on June 11, 1946.

What struck me as particularly interesting were Smith's comments on how modern people live in "a state of suspended judgment ... at half-speed, failing to realize our spiritual potentialities, but keeping just ahead of bleak Nihilism."

Something to ponder as the New Year begins ...

Comments

[Art]

Exact same subject our minister talked about today in church in his sermon. It was pretty interesting. He mentioned quite a few scientists, physicists, etc. who believe in God and life after death. I guess it's a little synchronicity?

[Roger Knights]

Tonight (Monday night) on Coast-to-Coast AM at 10 pm to 2 am:

"Dr. Sam Parnia of the Weill Cornell Medical Center will discuss the results of his study of near-death experiences which have received widespread coverage in the national and international press and have been published in the medical journal "Resuscitation.""

[Michael Prescott]

Thanks for the info, Roger.

The study in question can't be AWARE. Those results aren't anticipated till 2012, I think.

[j9]

There has been a more recent update on aware at the Horizon Research Website. See link below. It must have been done in the last couple of months.
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=233

[Aftrbrnr]

I honestly thought Coast-to-Coast would be the last place Parnia would go for an interview. This is just my opinion, but I feel the association with post-mortem survival studies with conspiracy theories, UFOs, crytoids, etc. is a reason why there has been trouble taking the topic seriously as in the present which from what I've seen Coast-to-Coast seems to deal with at times.

[Michael Tymn]

Michael,

I like Smith's "suspended judgment" quote. I think it goes to the root of the problems we are having in the world today. I like the way Dr. Madison Peters put it:

"It is impossible for a thinking person to find true purpose in life without a belief in survival. Limited, restricted, and temporal purpose, perhaps, but not true purpose. This belief must go beyond the blind or pseudo-faith of most religious practitioners. It must take the form of conviction. Too many indeed hold the solemn verities concerning the hereafter in a sort of half consciousness, believing in them, yet nevertheless not fully realizing them. They must flame within us, setting our whole moral and intellectual nature on fire, sending a life current of energy though every part of our being, arousing us to impetuous action and to sustained effort born of strong conviction.”

[Leo MacDonald]

Yeah it's not that one but another study i think.

[nate]

I listened to Parnia on Coast to Coast, The thing I struggle with the most with NDE's and why I am not a believer in them being a glimpse into a so called Afterlife, Why do only the 10-20% amount that have cardiac arrest experience them?

If we all have a 'Soul' then surely everyone should recall something during clinical death, It doesn't make any sense to me, His theory of it being to do with the Wiring of the Brain isn't a very good explanation either. Gets me to thinking that they may be just Hallucinations with the dying Brain going into trauma.

[Mark]

Not sure about that Nate. Maybe the brain blocks the memories.

The thing that bothers me about NDEs is how different they are. I mean they are the same in the beginning, but whenever they leave earth it seems like no two NDEs are alike. All of them might not be the same but I think some two would have to be identical at some point.

Ive been watching I Survived Beyond and Back and sometimes people see other people with bodies, sometimes they look like stars but don't have bodies, sometimes they are surrounded with thousands of clapping people and sometimes they see one or two angels. Why are these stories so different? I'd find it easier to believe if the stories matched more.

[Bruce Siegel]

"Gets me to thinking that they may be just Hallucinations with the dying Brain going into trauma."

That's a common theory, Nate. But couldn't the same objection be applied to it? In other words, why do only 10-20% of people who have cardiac arrest have hallucinations?

Your question is a good one, though, and I don't know the answer.

But the more you listen to people who have NDE's and study their content, the more you realize how little like hallucinations they are. For example, hallucinations don't fill us in on long-forgotten details about our childhoods, nor do they give us accurate information about events happening at other locations, nor do they lead to the kind of positive transformations that NDE'rs consistently experience.

So the question becomes: how and why does ANYONE have such an experience, much less how can we have such an experience at a time when our brain seems incapable of having any kind of lucid experience whatsoever.

[Kris]

Hey Nate

I think the answer to your question can be found in the NDE accounts themselves. If you read the accounts they tend to say the person being there is a mistake and needs to go back. Thus we would not expect 100% of people to have NDEs cause basically it is a afterlife clerical error.

[Art]

Hallucinations don't corroborate, parallel, or are congruent with the holographic universe theory and quantum physics.

"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE, http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

[Art]

"The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected."
- excerpt from Kelly K's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

[Art]

"‘If you lived inside a hologram, you could tell by measuring the blurring,’ Hogan says." http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/
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People who have NDE's routinely say that it seemed even more real than this side, or "realer than real." We live live in the holographic projection (hologram) and the other side or "heaven" is the original holographic film.

Kelly K's NDE
"Yes the colors of things were heightened, much better than normal. ... The NDE is very real, more like you went on an amazing trip. You are more aware " http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

And the reason they see more colors than normal is because they are seeing the entire light spectrum instead of just a very narrow range like our bodies see here. Once the "soul" leaves the body it is able to connect with or "see" the entire light spectrum, hence "more colors than normal."

[dmduncan]

Off topic, but is anyone else skeptical of the alleged "scientific" explanation for all these mass bird deaths? I mean, if they're so "common," and caused by fireworks, then why don't we see stories every year about the mass bird death cleanups on July 5th?

[Michael Prescott]

"is anyone else skeptical of the alleged 'scientific' explanation for all these mass bird deaths?"

I believe the true explanation may have something to do with this:

http://tinyurl.com/36f48ut

[dmduncan]

Hahaha. Awful. Just awful.

[sbu]

NewScientist has brought a complete explanation for the near death phenomena, enjoy!

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/01/near-death-neurologist-dreams-on-the-border-of-life.html

[Art]

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/01/near-death-neurologist-dreams-on-the-border-of-life.html
----------------------------------------

No mention of the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory and quantum physics?

[Andrea]

I thought NDEs happened well after all brain activity had ceased? That guy made it sound as simple as a fainting spell.

OT, but are you on Facebook, Mr. Prescott?

[j9]

I read the scientific american article. I have to say, I've fainted a few times in my life. The I never remember seeing a tunnel. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never recalled anything but feeling like I was passing out and waking up on the ground. I would not have thought to say. "Well, I felt faint, and I saw this tunnel, and then I woke up". I simply passed out with no urge to explain what I physically saw. So, I'm not buying it.

[j9]

And, I still say Parnia would not be stating to the media that it is "the wiring of the brain" or a "trick of the brain", if he was getting any hits. He would know by now if he was having any postive results, surely.

[sbu]

I have to agree with you j9. The change in rhetoric over the years from Parnia suggests that they never have had a hit.

No mention of the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory and quantum physics?

That's because that connection does not exists in the realm of science - it's a thought experiment not supported by facts, only wishful thinking.

[Jane B]

Re: Parnia not getting hits: I'm not sure about that, j9 - from what it sounds like in the brief update interview he gave, it sounds like so far, they've been collecting subjects but haven't started the interview process. So he might not actually have any data yet. Also, I think Parnia is saying those things to be cautionary, but to me he sounds genuinely undecided. I still don't like the fact that they're calling AWARE the "definitive study" on NDEs, because of course it won't be, but I think Parnia himself is genuinely open to positive results, even if they might surprise him a little.

One thing I think he's commented on, and something that I often think about, is the fact that while NDEs provide very compelling evidence that the mind and the brain are not identical, there is still data from neuroscience in general that *seems* to say mind and brain are the same. I know that this data can also be accounted for by the transmission theory, but I think it would be nice to see someone actually lay out a comprehensive model using transmission theory. If people could see how it actually works, there might be less resistance to it. Incidentally, has this been done? Is there a book on it anywhere?

[jack]

re
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/jonah_lehrer/search?contributorName=jonah%20lehrer

could not post in correct location

[jack]

re
The Truth Wears Off
by Jonah Lehrer
Fascinating article
There is a follow up reply to critics by Jonah Lehrer:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/jonah_lehrer/search?contributorName=jonah%20lehrer

Almost all critics assume that there is an underlying "truth" which "regression to the mean" will bring to light.

[Aftrbrnr]

I just noticed how Smith referenced the fact that if materialism is true, death is essentially a total erasure and not a stop in progression (where he says something along the lines about consciousness being snuffed out as if it never existed). For me, it's hard to fit both consciousness and memories into the materialist model just because of the sheer fact I am experiencing those now, for materialism to be true in my opinion I should not be experiencing any of those right now, after all if death is an absolute end there is no way to access either of those two, which is where I think Smith comes up with the phrase "as if it never existed".

I also noticed Michael Tymm's quote from Dr. Madison Peters and I too agree that it's difficult to find meaning or purpose in life without a belief in survival. I've honestly tried to understand the materialist's views on the purpose of life but I just can't seem to get it. For example, the idea that we live on through offspring or are influences seems a bit shallow to me, there's no guarantee on how long humanity will last and more than likely there will likely be an end to man kind eventually. I've noticed when brought up with this likely possibility, materialists tend to go quiet. I've also heard some materialists say it's through the brevity of life that gives it meaning which is why some of them are against life extension techniques. That is something I can't wrap my head around, I understand there's the argument that you'll just put everything off if you have infinite time available to you but on the flip side I'm not a fan of trying to cram as many experiences into life before our time is up, which ultimately seems futile if you're just going to forget it all in the end.

Then again, I have seen materialists scratch their heads at our outlooks. There's one poster over at the Skeptiko forums who said he's confused by why so many people feel life is meaningless without a belief in survival, so I guess it goes both ways.

[Aftrbrnr]

Jane, I definitely agree with you about having a model for transmission theory. I think ultimately the only thing that will really break down resistance to it is alongside a model is evidence that can be measured, which given the nature of the theory may not be possible. I've heard from skeptics many times they want to know where these signals being transmitted to the brain are coming from, and what part of the brain receives these signals (I think those questions though maybe too grounded in materialism, from what I recall the transmission theory is more of an analogy than an actual belief that there are real signals being broadcast out there).

[Art]

"No mention of the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory and quantum physics?" - Art
-------------------------------------------
"That's because that connection does not exists in the realm of science - it's a thought experiment not supported by facts, only wishful thinking." - sbu
--------------------------------------------

The connection is obvious for anyone who can read.
***************
The Quantum Mind of the NDE
How the new physics explains consciousness

http://www.near-death.com/quantum.html
--------------------------------------------
'The Holographic Universe.' This book lays a scientific ... that near-death experiences could be explained by the holographic model. Dr. Kenneth Ring, who is president of the International Association for Near-Death Studies, ...
quanta-gaia.org/reviews/books/holoUniverse.html
-----------------------
"Although each of us obviously inhabits a separate physical body, the laboratory data from a hundred years of parapsychology research strongly indicate that there is no separation in consciousness." - Russell Targ, physicist co-founder of Stanford Research Institute's investigation into psychic abilities

[Kris]

Well I see New Scientist has no problem burning a straw man on NDE research. Why bother mentioning those facts that make NDEs so interesting or why bother even using NDE researchers? Why not even use a single NDE study for your paper?

As I tell people this is the correct statement on the status of NDE research

No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain."

As for Parnia we will have to see what he gets in the end. If they do not get the hits but still get information that would be impossible to get under normal circumstances then that is still a win for us. Of course this does nothing to invalidate studies that have supported the dualistic views of NDEs.

[Kris]

Well my comment was censored, not surprised. There are days I absolutely hate materialist liars. This is one of them.

[sbu]

The connection is obvious for anyone who can read.

Ridiculous. Here is a easy to read introduction to quantum mechanics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechanics

which basically sums up to what experimentally has been verified so far. No science fiction or wishful thinking. As you can read no mentioning of neither the holograhic universe or consciousness.

Can't you see that you might actually be manipulating with peoples beliefs when claiming there is hard science to your claims?

One extreme case of scientific abuse is the "The Myth of the Twentieth Century" by Alfred Rosenberg. Rosenberg's well-researched account of ancient history, melded with his racial speculations, proved to be very effective in spreading racialism among German intellectuals in the early twentieth century.

[Andrea]

Kris, what was your comment and where was it censored?

[Kris]

Oh I got censored here- http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/01/near-death-neurologist-dreams-on-the-border-of-life.html

I took them to task for not using any NDE scholars in their article and ignoring the research that has been done and the conclusions it has made. Their stance that NDEs are medically explainable is 100% outside of the mainstream views of NDE research.

This is the view from IANDS

No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain."

[Andrea]

Thanks. I saw that Kimberly's very reasonable comment was subsequently attacked by materialists with the same tired insults. Invoking entropy now? "Dead cells can't come to life?" The hell? Then how are any of us here at all?

[Art]

"Can't you see that you might actually be manipulating with peoples beliefs when claiming there is hard science to your claims?" - sbu
------------------------------

I've told you before it's more like a jury trial with numerous witnesses than some kind of weird scientific experiment. And by the way "science" can be wrong. It often is. What we once believed we no longer believe. The whole idea of a hard materialistic physical reality is now completely out the window with the advent of quantum physics. You have to let go of your old 19th century Newtonian way of thinking.

It's like a puzzle with the outside framed by quantum physics and the holographic universe theory and the inside pieces made up of things like near death experiences, death bed visions, mystical and transcendental experiences, the work of some Mediums, parapsychology experiments, etc. When I stand back and look at the puzzle, like the game show Concentration on TV, the answer is obvious and jumps out me.

We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. You are going to be so surprised after your physical body dies and that voice inside your head still exists. I'll tell you what, if you get scared and are afraid, call out for me and I will come to you and help guide you into the Light.

[Kris]

Yeah the New Scientist will not publish replies from informed people. This should not surprise me as I think their arguments cannot stand up under rational scrutiny and they know it, but still it just makes me so mad.

[Aftrbrnr]

Kris, don't take this the wrong way but are you sure the reason New Scientist won't post your comment is because of its supposed non-materialistic opinion? I've noticed others with that kind of opinion such as Kimberley get their comments posted. I do notice you tend to be more militant when it comes to these matters (such as when Michael advised you to not push Keith Augustine's buttons once) so I just wonder if you were maybe a little too brash in your wording?

As for the responses to Kimberley, IMO they're really more leveled headed compared to what I've seen in the past. At least no one is swearing at her or cqlling her a wuss that is unable to accept death as a finality.

I've seen the entropy argument brought up a few times before, bit it is my opinion that it is one where "one can't think outside of the box". The thing is that the theory of survival and consciousness maybe something that is immaterial, that is consciousness may potentially not be energy that is emitted by the brain, or maybe it is but the concept of survival is not something that is rooted in the physical world where one can observe and measure it (easily, maybe).

[Bruce Siegel]

The following is an interesting response to the New Scientist article. Michael, do you—or does anyone else here—care to address it?

"@Kimberly: It has become a staple of NDE legend that NDEs happen when it has been measured that there is "no trace of brain activity" - but this is nothing more than legend. This is easy to show. If it were really true, ask yourself who this happened to. Do any actual names come to mind?

I can think of two - Pam Reynolds, who was monitored but actually had her NDE hours before losing brain activity, and Sarah Gideon, who was invented for literary purposes based on the hyped up version of the Pam Reynolds story.

The legend of NDEs when the brain is totally out of commission is just a legend."

[Aftrbrnr]

He does have a point about Pam Reynolds, though and even Michael here has pointed out that the truth is her NDE did occur before there was no brain activity contrary to what most people insist. Pin Von Lommel admits also in his research that no one was actually really dead, also.

That being said, I think the answer whether or not people have brain activity during an NDE is one I think will take some time to answer if at all. I do recall about a year ago though Skeptiko had a materialistic doctor that said based on experiments with animals, it's unlikely that there is brain activity during an NDE. I think this is also why skeptical explanations have been more suggestive about the NDE occurring prior or after clinical death rather than ones that say there is some currently undetectable brain activity that occurs during clinical death.

[sbu]

exactly. And the article isn't a clear-cut denial that their could be a non-materialist explanation to the phenomena:

People like to say that these experiences are proof that consciousness can exist outside the brain, like a soul that lives after death. I hope that is true, but it is a matter of faith; there is no evidence for that. People who claim otherwise are using false science to engender false hope and I think that is misleading and ultimately cruel.

[Aftrbrnr]

Working with your quote from the article, sbu I can't really help to think if the "believer" really loses if he is wrong. If he is, upon death it isn't like he will look around his surroundings and say, "Oh crap, looks like I'm forever screwed, there is nothing after!" If you understand the concept of non-survival, you will see how impossible and silly that above scenario is.

I remember a skeptic pointing this out saying that "the funny thing is that if the believers are wrong, they will never know". While that is true, it isn't as if the skeptic will be able to tell the believer, "I can't believe you spent your whole life believing in this only to find out there is nothing, what a fool!" The skeptic is subject to the same conditions as the believer, and he will also never know. I think it is a fallacy to look at one side winning or losing with regards to survival, especially with regards to the materialist model because ultimately it appears no one really loses or wins.

[Bruce Siegel]

"The skeptic is subject to the same conditions as the believer, and he will also never know."

BUT—he doesn't get to enjoy the advantages that accompany faith, optimism, and experiencing yourself as the protagonist in an infinitely larger, more meaningful story line.

[Art]

I'm looking forward to seeing my mom again. I have hope that one day I will be reunited with the loved ones I have lost. If you live long enough you will lose those whom you love.

Hope sounds like a good thing to me. Life would be miserable if I believed that I'd lost my loved ones forever.

[Bruce Siegel]

"I'm looking forward to seeing my mom again."

I think you will, and that's part of the more meaningful story line I was referring to. :o)

[Paul]

@nate
Just a thought about remembering NDEs: I understand we dream every time we sleep. I almost never (99.9%) remember my dreams in any way. Does this mean i don't dream?

[Kris]

All I did was post the mainstream view of NDEs from IANDs and asked why did New Scientist not use NDE experts for their article. That got censored.

[Kris]

However the Reynold's NDE was continuous and it crossed into her flat line stage.

[Jane B]

I know there has been many discussions of the Pam Reynolds issue, but this is the way I understand it: the part of her NDE that was veridical - the part that contained observations from the operating room which were later verified - took place before her brain was completely inactive, although they did take place while she was heavily sedated and rendered incapable of hearing or seeing conventionally.

After that, I have read that her NDE progressed into the "core/mystical experience" stage, where she went to the light and saw her deceased grandmother and all that, and she did experience continuous consciousness during the entire event. It was only the OBE in the operating room that took place before her brain completely ceased functioning.

This is what I understand from several of the more reliable versions of the case that I have read; can anyone confirm it?

[Art]

I remember reading one near death experience of a woman who said to her daughter that dying is as easy as walking through a door. She "died" in a hospital bed and came back about 20 minutes later. The woman was met by her deceased brother and they walked by her daughter who was sitting by her mother's bedside as she died and they walked into the light. It was an incredibly moving NDE.

[Alexander1304]

I have a prticular question.Where is LOCATION of an afterlife?Is it within this Universe or outside,or in some other dimenstion.Because sooner or later this universe is expected to expire(aka Heat Death).

[Art]

"I have a prticular question.Where is LOCATION of an afterlife?" - alexander

In Oak Ridge, Tennessee there is a museum of Science and Industry. One of the displays is a holographic projection of this ball just floating out there in space. You can try and grab it as it floats around and moves. Of course it just floats right through your hand.

If the ball disappears the original film still exists. It is only a projection from the film. Everything points in the direction that our universe is just a holographic projection.

[Art]

quote from Dr. Peter Russell's Mysterious Light

"For two thousand years it was believed that atoms were tiny balls of solid matter-a model clearly drawn from everyday experience. Then, as physicists discovered that atoms were composed of more elementary, subatomic, particles (electrons, protons, neutrons, and suchlike), the model shifted to one of a central nucleus surrounded by orbiting electrons-again a model based on experience.

An atom may be small, a mere billionth of an inch across, but these subatomic particles are a hundred-thousand times smaller still. Imagine the nucleus of an atom magnified to the size of a grain of rice. The whole atom would then be the size of a football stadium, and the electrons would be other grains of rice flying round the stands. As the early twentieth-century British physicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it, "matter is mostly ghostly empty space"-99.9999999 percent empty space, to be a little more precise.

With the advent of quantum theory, it was found that even these minute subatomic particles were themselves far from solid. In fact, they are not much like matter at all-at least nothing like matter as we know it. They can't be pinned down and measured precisely. They are more like fuzzy clouds of potential existence, with no definite location. Much of the time they seem more like waves than particles. Whatever matter is, it has little, if any, substance to it."
http://www.peterrussell.com/SG/IONS.php
****************

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real."
- Niels Bohr

[Michael Prescott]

I've been away from my computer for a couple of days, but it looks like the discussion is going quite well without me!

To answer Andrea's question, no, I'm not on Facebook, though I probably should be.

Regarding the cessation of all brain activity, I don't think there are any documented, unambiguous cases. It's a *near*-death experience, not a death experience. But in many cases the level of brain activity is so minimal that vivid, complex, structured subjective experiences should not be possible. And then there are the veridical OBEs to consider.

I don't think Art is misleading anyone, just stating his opinion, which he feels strongly about. The only quibble I would have with him is that the holographic universe is, as yet, an unproved hypothesis. It's certainly an interesting idea, but not widely accepted.

The location of the afterlife realm? In his book "To Die For," James Beichler theorizes that there is a fifth dimension that intersects the spacetime universe orthogonally (i.e., at right angles), and that consciousness is "located" in this dimension. The afterlife realm is a realm of pure consciousness - which is to say, it's the fifth dimension. I'm not saying this theory is correct; who knows? It's one suggestion.

I wrote about Beichler here:

tinyurl.com/2g6qewv

For other posts about Beichler, type his name into the Google search box on the left side of this page.

Jane B, your summary of the Pam Reynolds case is accurate. The question is whether her consciousness was really continuous throughout the procedure. Pam thought so, but without veridical observations during the later part of her NDE, there's no way to prove it.

By the way, I have fainted, and my experience was just like j9's. No NDE elements at all. As I recall, some of the OBEs collected by Robert Crrookall involved fainting spells, so it is possible that an OBE, at least, might be triggered that way. But I don't know of any cases where a simple fainting spell led to a life review, reunion with deceased loved ones, encounter with a godlike being of light, etc. If there are such cases, I haven't seen them.

[Art]

"The only quibble I would have with him is that the holographic universe is, as yet, an unproved hypothesis." - Michael Prescott
---------------------------

It's kind of like that game show on TV where they put letters up on a board and after you get enough letters you can guess what the answer is. And after you see the answer it is so obvious and you wonder why you never saw it before. The connection between near death experiences and the holographic nature of our Universe is the answer I get from having read thousands of near death experiences. And by the way I used to teach 9th grade Physical Science and one of the chapters in our book was about holograms.

Excerpt from Kelly K's NDE:
"The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected."
http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

At the museum of Science and Industry in Oak Ridge, TN they have a hologram of a ball floating in space. When you try to grab it your hand just passes through it.

Excerpt from Robert Blair Kaiser's experience:
"All of a sudden, that car was on my right. The driver weaved a bit, braked for a moment and then drove off, shaking his head in disbelief, as I was. For it was clear to me, there was no way he could have missed crashing into me, no way he could have steered aside. His car had flashed through my car, his steel and glass and rubber passing through my steel and glass and rubber like a ray of light through a pane of alabaster."
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

Excerpt from Arthur W's NDE:
"I saw the car pass through the scene, it did not swerve, it did not turn. It passed directly through, leaving my wife and my body untouched."
http://www.nderf.org/arthur_w's_nde.htm

and finally in a piece of holographic "film" all the information is spread throughout the entire piece of film. Each piece contains the whole.

Excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE:
"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously."
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Our Universe is not that much different than the holodeck on Star Trek. A world generated by the onboard computer of the Star Ship. All the characters in the holonovel were generated by the computer.

excerpt from Michelle M's NDE:
"I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body."
http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

[Hrvoje Butkovic]

Aftrbrnr:
”I also noticed Michael Tymm's quote from Dr. Madison Peters and I too agree that it's difficult to find meaning or purpose in life without a belief in survival. I've honestly tried to understand the materialist's views on the purpose of life but I just can't seem to get it. For example, the idea that we live on through offspring or are influences seems a bit shallow to me, there's no guarantee on how long humanity will last and more than likely there will likely be an end to man kind eventually. I've noticed when brought up with this likely possibility, materialists tend to go quiet. I've also heard some materialists say it's through the brevity of life that gives it meaning which is why some of them are against life extension techniques. That is something I can't wrap my head around, I understand there's the argument that you'll just put everything off if you have infinite time available to you but on the flip side I'm not a fan of trying to cram as many experiences into life before our time is up, which ultimately seems futile if you're just going to forget it all in the end.

Then again, I have seen materialists scratch their heads at our outlooks. There's one poster over at the Skeptiko forums who said he's confused by why so many people feel life is meaningless without a belief in survival, so I guess it goes both ways.”

I must admit that I can’t relate to either of these two outlooks. Of the life times and events that stand out for me, some do so partly because they comprise major portions of my life, some because they were distinctly unlike any other experience that I’ve had, and some because they can be repeated many times, but each time is fleeting and precious. None of them, however, add meaning or purpose to my life. Similarly, I don’t think that an immortal life is any more or less inherently meaningful than a single human lifetime. Both have only as much meaning and purpose as we’ve given them.

Sometimes watching a sunset fills me with absolute delight, but this is because it is beautiful rather than because it may or may not come again. Childhood memories enrich my life because they add beauty to the present moment; they don’t lose their value because I might forget them some day. And acting in ways that make us happiest and the most fulfilled won’t change if we discover that we only get one shot at it or many. There is still no better way to live.

[Jane B]

I've fainted as well - and I've had dreams while under general anesthesia. Neither was anything like how people describe their NDEs.

[Jane B]

Also, I can't remember if anyone has mentioned this on this site, but there's another study going on, similar to AWARE, called the "COOL study," and it does sound pretty cool. They're researching NDEs and NDE-like events that happen to patients who undergo the same surgical procedure that Pam Reynolds did, to see if they do in fact take place during a period that is probably as close to "definitely dead" as any NDE experiencer can come.

There was a brief article about it in HorizonResearch.org's editorial blog, and the person running the study had this to say: “It is going well as we have had a number of people report conscious awareness and memories from their period of standstill surgery. This now justifies the need to conduct a prospective study to evaluate the claims that patients have of being aware and able to see things from above during this incredible surgery.”

Sounds very exciting!

[Jane B]

lol, of course, I forgot the link: http://horizonresearch.tumblr.com/post/1534948451/the-cool-study#note-container

[Art]

It's in the "not knowing" that the most emotion is generated and since emotion and memory are linked I think we are meant to be kept in the dark about survival. The more emotional an experience is the more we remember it.

Emotions Make the Memory Last
"Ever wonder why some memories can stay vivid for years while others fade with time? The answer is emotion."
http://www.webmd.com/balance/news/.../emotions-make-memory-last

Not knowing is the reason there are believers and non-believers. This duality leads to heated debates and causes us to experience separation something that my reading of near death experiencers tells me doesn't exist in the spiritual universe.

Perhaps that's the whole purpose of life? To just experience separation and learn what it means and how it feels to be separate - something that can't be learned in Heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness.

"I never saw a tunnel but I was going backwards from what I perceived to be a place of division. ... ...I was going backward as if I was going away from that place of separation." - excerpt from RoseMarie's W's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/rosemarie_w_nde.htm

[Neil Parille]

Hi Michael,

I'm reading S. Braude's book Immortal Remains, which is on the same topic and covers some of the same territory, or so it seems.

It's quite good, although I find it somewhat frustrating (as I assume most books of this kind are) in that it's almost impossible to tell if the accounts are accurate. I have no way of knowing whether Pearl Curran had an interest in history or whether Mrs. Piper didn't know her subjects, etc.

-Neil Parille

[Zerdini]

There is plenty of information on Mrs Piper and Mrs Curran on the Net which should answer most of your questions.

[Sandy]

My new year started off pretty oddly. A book was published that contains a chapter about me. I have mixed feelings about "Chapter 7". If I had been given the choice, no one would have given my name and number to the books author. But the book is out now, and I guess what's done is done. Thankfully, my real name was kept out of the book.

I did get a good laugh from what Dr Persinger is quoted as saying about me:

“She does some interesting phenomena.”

[Matthew-x]

Also this year......

The Results of the AWARE Study!

I will be blissed if the results are positive, and very very confused if they are negative... I honestly cannot see how they could be negative.

[Jane B]

The other interesting thing to consider in all of this (something I have to admit I often don't think as much about) is the fact that, whatever one may think about NDEs, there are other phenomena suggestive of survival that are basically proven - namely, the various psi abilities.

I know that psi research is not as explicitly linked with survival as NDE research is, but I say that psi is suggestive of survival because I'm very skeptical of the various proposals for a physical explanation of psi. People often seem to conflate various psi phenomena with certain seemingly analogous quantum phenomena, and think that that means quantum physics will provide the key to understanding psi. I found it very interesting, however, that in Daryl Bem's recent article, he includes comments from actual physicists who say that, even taking quantum physics into account, a physical explanation for psi is very unlikely.

What do you guys think about psi research as far as it pertains to survival?

[Michael Prescott]

"I honestly cannot see how they could be negative."

Michael Tymn has some interesting thoughts on this in his latest blog post:

http://tinyurl.com/4e45u7x

[Art]

"The other interesting thing to consider in all of this (something I have to admit I often don't think as much about) is the fact that, whatever one may think about NDEs, there are other phenomena suggestive of survival that are basically proven" - Jane
-------------------------------------------
Exactly! The question of life after death reminds me of a puzzle with lots of different pieces and after you put the puzzle together and step back and view the puzzle the answer jumps out at you.

Or it's like that game show on TV where they put letters up on a board and then after they get enough letters someone is able to guess what the saying is - and it's so obvious that you wonder why it took so long to see it - and once you've seen what the answer is it's difficult to imagine it any other way.

People keep saying "scientifically" like that is the be-all and end-all way of proving things. Perhaps the question of life after death is more like a jury trial where you are presented with the evidence and each individual juror has to examine the evidence and decide for themselves whether they believe it or not. After you've heard testimony from thousands of different witnesses you become convinced of the validity of their claims about what they saw.

[Bruce Siegel]

"What do you guys think about psi research as far as it pertains to survival?"

That's an excellent question, Jane, and I for one, think that psi experiences of all kinds provide compelling evidence for survival. Others may see it differently, but that's my take.

Here's an example: I (and many others) have dreams in which I travel to someplace I've never been, and the next day, when I actually visit that location, I see that my dream provided information I had no "normal" way of knowing.

So what does this mean? It means that the idea that my consciousness is trapped within a certain place and/or time—that *I* exist only when and where my body exists—is an illusion.

So how, then, can I die?

Undoubtedly, there are arguments that can be made for the reality of death even given the existence of psi in all its many forms, but I don't find them convincing. As Art says, you've got to look at all the pieces of the puzzle, and psi is a big one!

[Bruce Siegel]

By the way, I've been reading "Randi's Prize" (which Robert McLuhan so graciously provided to me as a free pdf file for my Ipod) and I'm enjoying it a lot.

Really good insights into the weaknesses of the Skeptical enterprise in general. And I like how personal the writing is. You can follow him as he thinks, feels, and learns, and I like being talked to that way.

[Matthew_x78]

Jane - Well...... My thoughts are that there are likely to explanations for PSI, NDE, Reincarnation, Synchronicities etc.

One is that we have individual "soul like" consciousnesses that survive physical death, the other that all consciousness is one and seems to appear individual. Either way part of us survives death. I am not sure what explains PSI. Certainly a "soul like" consciousness would be the most simple and elegant explanation so that is my null hypothesis but there are other possibilities.

And their are other phenomena which do support the survival hypothesis but not necessarily the "soul like" survival hypothesis as much as NDE's do.....

* Micehal OMG thanks for the Link! I was not aware that the tiles where only 6 inches down from the ceiling, I would say this is a serious design flaw. Its very unlikely that the NDErs will see them but It would be awesome if they did. I think extreme skeptics would than say it was "death - telepathy, they would come up with a new Ad Hoc explanation.

At the same time the pictures are they to be "something unsual to be noticed," I think that is intentional but I think that 6" is not enough space.

I gotta say that I concur with everything you said in your comment.

I believe Dr. Parnia said that they would not continue the experiment if positive results were not obtained. I think they should at least continue it for a few more years.

I do not think that this experiment makes or breaks the case of the NDE but I am hoping that it will yield Verdical reports even if not by seeing the pictures. At least than there will be additional verdical reports coming from a very systematic and controlled experiment.

We will have to see.

Thanks for the link.

[Bruce Siegel]

Here's my explanation for psi. And I'm certain that it's right. :o)

Everything and everyone that exists is really part of One Big Entity. (The separations that seem to exist between us are temporary, and for recreational purposes.) We sometimes call this entity God.

So we're all God's body parts, you might say. Or more accurately, we're all God Itself.

And just as I'm perfectly aware what's happening with my little toe, I'm also aware, in certain states of consciousness, what's happening with you—because both you and my toe are part of me.

And it's as simple as that.

[sbu]

Seems like the believer community already is starting to make excuses for a negative AWARE outcome. Isn't this a bit too early?

[Michael Prescott]

"Isn't this a bit too early?"

Personally, I expressed some doubts about the experiment more than a year ago. I think it's worth doing, but I doubt it will settle anything. If thousands of card-reading trials and Ganzfeld tests can't sway mainstream scientific opinion, why would a small number of hits in AWARE change their minds?

Any hits in AWARE are unlikely to be better than the positive result Charles Tart got with his test subject "Miss Z," yet that case hasn't had much impact on the skeptical community.

[Alexander1304]

Bruce Siegel: "Everything and everyone that exists is really part of One Big Entity. (The separations that seem to exist between us are temporary, and for recreational purposes.) We sometimes call this entity God.

So we're all God's body parts, you might say. Or more accurately, we're all God Itself."
I really like this view!

"And I'm certain that it's right. :o)"
I hope it IS...

[Michael Prescott]

For a more positive view of Sam Parnia's experiment, presented in a popularized form, see:

http://tinyurl.com/49pdt3

Not a bad article, though the hyped-up headline is misleading, and Susan Blackmore's OBE is called an NDE.

[Jane B]

Wow, Michael, that's a really interesting article. Dr. Parnia is very candid. Whatever his position really is, I think his motives are pure and I have a lot of respect for him.

[Art]

"Seems like the believer community already is starting to make excuses for a negative AWARE outcome. Isn't this a bit too early?" - sbu
-------------------------------------------

It is irrelevant to me what the AWARE study finds. My belief isn't contingent on veridical NDEs; although that is one piece of the puzzle.

I wonder why it is that skeptics are so intent on destroying this beautiful belief and hope we have that one day we will one day be reunited with our loved ones we have lost? Why do they care?

[Jane B]

Michael, do we know when that article was published? Dr. Parnia sounds more positive in it than anywhere else I've heard him speak.

[Michael Prescott]

"do we know when that article was published?"

I don't. It's undated, unfortunately.

"I wonder why it is that skeptics are so intent on destroying this beautiful belief and hope we have..."

It does seem a little odd, doesn't it? I can see how someone would be motivated to expose fraudulent mediums or others who are preying on the bereaved, but some skeptics seem overtly hostile to the very idea of an immortal soul, even in contexts (like NDEs or deathbed visions) where con artists aren't much of a factor.

[Pat]

The article that Michael linked to quotes Parnia as saying:

"Our work [AWARE study] will prove one way or the other whether a form of consciousness carries on after the body and brain has died."

The AWARE study will do no such thing. Did Parnia really that? I hope not.

Let's suppose the study is negative. Okay, what about the British SPR work with Leonora Piper, what about other NDE research (combine the Pam Reynolds case, the "dentures man" case, the "flapping his arms like a bird" case, etc.), what about reincarnation research, etc.?

[Alexander1304]

Art: "I wonder why it is that skeptics are so intent on destroying this beautiful belief and hope we have that one day we will one day be reunited with our loved ones we have lost? Why do they care?"

Michael: "but some skeptics seem overtly hostile to the very idea of an immortal soul"

Here is how Phillip Pecorino,Ph.D,addresses this issue in his "Philosophy of Religion" : http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/pecorip/SCCCWEB/ETEXTS/PHIL_of_RELIGION_TEXT/CHAPTER_7_SOULS/Survival_of_Soul.htm

Read carefuly the second half of the page

Similar view is expressed here:

http://www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/2problem/210eternal.htm

It seems that the authors try to raise a point:"Whan people hope for eternal life do they really UNDERSTAND what they are hoping for?"
I have no idea how to regard these authors points - but I'd just like to get you to be familiar with them,and like to hear your opinions

[Art]

Alexander I couldn't get the first link to work and I read the second link. I notice that the author doesn't touch on or mention the connection between NDE's and quantum physics and the holographic universe theory.

The second author also doesn't understand the implications of "time and space not existing" means. He needs to read Dr. Brian Greene's books The Elegant Universe and Fabric of the Cosmos to understand the profound implications of quantum physics. I've noticed that most skeptics are so stuck in an old Newtonian Classical physics way of thinking. Or to quote the Borg Queen from Star Trek "Jean Luc your thinking is so three dimensional."

He thinks there are only two choices about life after death. Not necessarily so.

[Alexander1304]

Art,I agree with you that author's view on the subject seems to be very limited.
You: "I've noticed that most skeptics are so stuck in an old Newtonian Classical physics way of thinking."
And I've noticed that most sceptical reviews about "life after death" issues seem to revolve around traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of "heaven/hell",and the issue seems to be far more complicated than that.

You:"He thinks there are only two choices about life after death. Not necessarily so."

Of corse not

As for the first link,try that:
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/pecorip/SCCCWEB/ETEXTS/PHIL_of_RELIGION_TEXT/TABLE_of_CONTENTS.htm

Then click on "Chapter 7 The Existence of Souls and the Resurrection"

and after: 4 The Survival of the Soul

Hope now you'll be able to open the link

[Art]

I found the exact quote from Star Trek First Contact:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "Yes, I... I remember you. You were there all the time. But... that ship... and all the Borg on it were destroyed."

The Borg Queen: "You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become."

That's how I think sceptics think. They think in such three dimensional terms!

[Art]

Sorry Alexander. I can't get the link to work. Maybe you can turn it into a tiny url by going to to tinyurl.com and making the url smaller?

[Alexander1304]

Art,
I don't know how to put into a tiny,sorry.But if you open "Google",and go to "advanced" search, in "this exact wording or phrase:" type: "survival of the soul" and above,in "all these words" just type "pecorino".The first result is a desired link.Thanks

[Art]

Okay, but just for future reference it's easy to make a long string tiny. Just type in your tinyurl.com and it will take you to the website. Then there is a place to copy and paste the long string. Then just click on the box labeled "make tiny url" and it will automatically make any long url into a short string. I don't know how it works but it's easy to do it.

[Art]

whoops! just go to tinyurl.com
it's self explanatory.

[Art]

"from the link, Metaphysical argument No evidence of the soul as a separate , distinct substance. If it did exist it would be ingenerable and would exist before the body"
----------------------

Yes, but what if it existed in a place of pure consciousness where nothing existed unless it was first thought of and unless you had previously experienced separation, time and space, and anything physical there wouldn't be anything there? Another words if consciousness is primary and matter is secondary, or matter is an epiphenomena of consciousness in a universe where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality if you had previously never seen or heard anything you would just be pure consciousness with no separate distinct thoughts.

Which I believe has everything to do with "why we are here." The soul comes here to learn what it means and how it feels to be separate, what time and space look and feel like, and make memories of what it was like to inhabit or be inside and control a physical body and what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe. it's as simple as that.

[Alexander1304]

Art,
Ok,but did you read the second half of the page?This could address the question Michael asks while some skeptics are hostile to the doctrine of the "immortal soul"(though ,I think,it(the second part of the page) has something in common with another article that I provided(which you successfully opened and read).Such understanding of the "soul" could be very limited and discussions about "heaven/hell" could be simply irrelevant.
You quoted: "No evidence of the soul as a separate , distinct substance"
It's Hume's argument.Ok,but on another side there are evidences suggestes survival.So ,there is some conflict here.
Another Hume's,that you quoted:
"If it did exist it would be ingenerable and would exist before the body"
I think Reincarnation theory(if true) suggests exactly that - soul exists before the body is born

You: "The soul comes here to learn what it means and how it feels to be separate"
Sound nice and could be true,but how can we be sure of it? As I see I can relate to it right not now ,it is not more as "plausible nice idea"

Regards,

[nbtruthman]

This is an interesting essay, a little more even handed than I would expect from a representative of the academic establishment. A few comments:

It is unfortunate but perhaps to be expected that William James and Aldous Huxley and a number of other modern thinkers and investigators were ignored in the survey of prestigious authorities quoted.

I think empirical evidence trumps the various philosophical views of the issue. Hume's arguments are especially weak:
- Metaphysical argument No evidence of the soul as a separate , distinct substance. If it did exist it would be ingenerable and would exist before the body. As Alexander points out, this is precisely what the reincarnation evidence implies.
- Moral argument: That the Justice of the deity would be called into question because of the eternal nature of the rewards and punishment for finite acts of finite duration. This assumes a narrow Christian theology.
- Physical Argument : No evidence of survival and there is instead much evidence of decay-alterations, dissolution. This ignores the manifold areas of evidence that do exist.

The essay's conclusions encapsulate the many typical errors made by skeptics, in particular trivializing the massive body of evidence indicative though not of course proving survival.

.....The lack of some form of empirical evidence (direct or indirect) to support the claim of a soul presents a major problem for those who would maintain that souls or spirits exist. Parapsychology investigates a range of phenomena that might support the existence of some non-physical entities or non-physical or spiritual realm. Unfortunately the results of such investigations have thus far not provided evidence that is clear and consistent and secure and beyond serious criticisms.

What serious criticisms? They are not given and the reader is supposed to take this on the authority of the essayist, without exploring the real cumulative data for

Parapsychology, esp, psi
Mental mediumship
Drop-in communicators and cross-correspondences
Proxy cases
Death bed visions
At-death remote appearances
NDEs
OBEs
Physical mediumship
Apparitions
Hauntings
Reincarnation evidence

The attractiveness of the idea of an essential part of what humans are surviving after the death and decay of the physical body has been and may continue to be be examined as to whether or not it is desirable for individual human consciousness and individual personal identity to continue on for an infinite amount of time.

The writer brings up the supposed ultimate ennui or boredom of an infinitely long existence. True or not the boredom argument is irrelevant to the question of survival, just whether it is really desirable or not. Here the testimony of multitudes of NDEers and mystics would seem to bear on the issue. And of course the personality could survive death and exist for a long time but not forever.

[Art]

"Another Hume's,that you quoted:
"If it did exist it would be ingenerable and would exist before the body"
I think Reincarnation theory(if true) suggests exactly that - soul exists before the body is born" - alexander
-------------------------------------------

You don't even want to get me started on reincarnation. Suffice it to say, I don't see it as being necessary.

[Alexander1304]

nbtruthman - thanks for your reply.I particulary agree with you that author of the essay didn't present any cumulative data for the reader.

"And of course the personality could survive death and exist for a long time but not forever." - nbtruthman
------------------------------------------
A.Gauld,C.D.Broad and S.Braude also touched such possibility.I think it is natural that in the area of possible post-mortem survival there are a lot of things that we can only speculate.
Your post reminded me of the one of my favorate quotes from parapsychology site,when the question 'if parapsychology can prove an afterlife' is discussed:
""Life after death" does not have an obvious definition. What most people mean by "life after death" is that some part of their personality survives. Concepts vary greatly, but it can be said with certainty that death is a large change, and that any change in environment will produce a change in many measures of personality. People often assume that if there is life after death then there is some essential part of a person which survives and does not change. But it is also known that personality is tied both to environment and to bodily capabilities and needs. Thus, it is unknown exactly in what sense a person might survive; it is unknown how long a person might survive. And if the person continues to exist, it is unknown how long they might consider themselves to be the "same person" as when they died. It is also unknown just which faculties would carry over from physical existence to after-death existence; and it is unlikely that any sensory faculties would be truly comparable to our physical senses"

And as for NDE/Mystics - there will be alwasys the question just how accurate it is...

[Alexander1304]

Art - 'You don't even want to get me started on reincarnation. Suffice it to say, I don't see it as being necessary.'
--------------------------------------------
Moreover Art,in one of articles I provided(first that you read),the author attacks of idea of survival as described in 'Judeo-Christian-Islamic' sense,and compares it with the eastern belief in reincarnation.
But the author missed one important point- reincarnation is and always played role in Judaism,even in traditional one(I know ,I'm Jewish:)),not to mention such Jewish mystic tradition as Kaballah,where is it almost central...

Moreover, I was very surprised to find on Internet that even some early Christians accepted this idea...

[Jane B]

My mother likes to say that only boring people get bored...

My take on things is basically that, if souls exist, then it seems highly likely that some kind of God exists as well. And if NDEers are correct when they talk about how blissful the afterlife is, then it's likely that It's a benevolent God, which makes it likely that we're in good hands. As long as the NDEers are right, I'm not worried about much else.

[sbu]

I wonder why it is that skeptics are so intent on destroying this beautiful belief and hope we have that one day we will one day be reunited with our loved ones we have lost? Why do they care?

They try to enlight people who can't differentiate between science and wild speculation. They remind me of Galileo Galilei's struggle with the Catholic Church back in the 16th century.

[Michael Prescott]

"They remind me of Galileo Galilei's struggle with the Catholic Church"

Although Galileo's fight has been misrepresented in popular history, and really had little to do with science and a lot to do with Galileo's obstreperous personality, I agree that the popular presentation at least offers a useful metaphor. But I would put the shoe on the other foot. It's the closed-minded guardians of scientific orthodoxy who are today's equivalents of the stereotypical 16th century Church officials. It's the conventional thinkers in academia who are refusing to "look through the telescope," while parapsychologists continue to collect more and more empirical evidence.

Remember that even arch-skeptic Richard Wiseman has said that by any ordinary scientific standards, psi is a proven fact, and that Ray Hyman, refusing to accept the results of an experiment he helped design, has explained that he is simply not able to change his own beliefs.

The 16th century Church was protecting its paradigm, which was already crumbling. Today, it's the materialist paradigm that's crumbling. I suspect that a century from now, people will look back in amazement that materialism held on as long as it did, just as we're amazed by the systems of epicycles that propped up the Ptolemaic system long past its expiration date.

[Aftrbrnr]

I don't know, Michael, are you sure materialism is really crumbling? The opposite could be happening, and many have commented oppositely that it seems materialsm is slowly gaining strength through time (at least concerning the Western world)

[Kris]

I think Materialism is gaining popular support but it is losing intellectual support.

Put it this way on the academic level Christian New Testament Scholars have simply mopped the floor with the Atheist New Testament scholars but on the popular non academic front belief in the Christ Myth is growing!

The issue is how does one translate academic victories into knowledge that can easily be shared with the non academic public.

[Kris]

Another example would be NDEs

On the academic front by far the best explanation is the afterlife hypothesis but on the populist front you find uncritical acceptance of the dying brain explanation among many. In this case you find the exact opposite of what research seems to indicate.

Again the issue is how does one translate the academic finds to the popular level.