Book review: Science and the Near-Death Experience

I received my copy of Chris Carter's new book a few weeks ago, but personal events intervened before I could finish reading it, let alone give it a proper review. I've now read all of it, and I'm deeply impressed. Science and the Near-Death Experience is a major addition to the literature of near-death studies, one of the most comprehensive, exhaustively researched, and intellectually serious books ever to cover this fascinating field.

Even better, it's now available in a Kindle edition!

The book makes no secret of its conclusion; the subtitle is How Consciousness Survives Death. Carter lays out his case methodically and logically, like an attorney delivering a masterful closing argument. The opposing side's views are given their due, but the intention throughout is to show that there is a preponderance of evidence in favor of the survivalist interpretation.

Despite the density of its subject matter, Science and the Near-Death Experience is crisply readable. Carter manages the admirable feat of summarizing complicated scientific and philosophical controversies in just a few paragraphs. Take a look at his analysis of eliminitive materialism:

This may sound bizarre, but since materialism cannot account for consciousness, some materialists simply deny their own existence as conscious beings. They are driven to this act of desperation by their conviction that science, which they understand as applied materialism, supports them. Note the self-refuting nature of this position: If I believe that consciousness does not exist, then how could my belief exist? If my consciousness does not exist, then neither does my belief. And if my professed belief is nothing more than a machine going through its motions, then you have no reason to accept it as correct. [p. 71]

This argument isn't original with Carter, but I've seldom seen it expressed so neatly.

Carter's erudition is phenomenal; he seems to have read nearly everything about NDEs and a great deal about related subjects, ranging from ketamine injections to native American folklore. He covers nearly every major proposed psychological and physiological explanation for NDEs, deftly exposing their shortcomings. He treats us to a review of the history of science from ancient Greece to the present day; a crash course in quantum mechanics and its major interpretations (though omitting David Bohm's "holographic universe"); an overview of nascent hypotheses of quantum consciousness; and a look at theories of life and memory. He also throws in a section on deathbed visions. In some ways Science and the Near-Death Experience reminded me of Irreducible Mind in its scope and seriousness, though Carter's prose is more reader-friendly than the dry academic style of IM. (By the way, for those who were put off by the sky-high price of IM in hardcover, there's now a more affordable paperback edition.)

I do have a few criticisms of Carter's book. For one thing, I felt that it began too abruptly, plunging the reader into a heavy discussion of philosophy and science after only the briefest of introductions. It might have been preferable to move Chapter 7, "Reports from the Brink," to the beginning of the book, so as to present some typical NDEs and set the stage for the in-depth discussion that would follow.

I also found it odd that some of the more prominent critics of nonphysical interpretations of NDEs went unnamed. Two examples are Keith Augustine and Gerald Woerlee. Neither is mentioned in the book or included in the bibliography. In particular, I would have liked to see a detailed response to Woerlee's theory that NDEs are explainable in terms of partial consciousness during CPR or while under anesthesia.

Finally, I found Chapter 3, "Opinions from Neuroscience," rather sketchy. Only two neuroscientists - Wilder Penfield and John Eccles - are cited, and while they're both prominent figures, their work was carried out decades ago. Later in the book, however, we do learn of some contemporary neurologists who are critical of materialist explanations, and the section on quantum consciousness suggests an alternative to more conventional theories.

These are relatively minor criticisms, which I mention mainly for completeness. Overall, Science and the Near-Death Experience is a remarkable accomplishment, deserving the widest possible audience. I can't say it any better than Ervin Laszlo, who writes:

Carter's book is not only an important contribution to this literature; it is its current crowning achievement. For he masters both the theoretical and the evidential approach, showing that belief to the contrary of the survival of consciousness is mere, and now entirely obsolete, dogma, and that the evidence for survival is clear and rationally convincing. A book to read and to remember for the rest of one's life - and perhaps beyond ...

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P.S. I intend to post a very abbreviated version of this review on Amazon, and I suggest that readers who enjoyed Science and the Near-Death Experience post their own reviews there, as well. Reader reviews can be highly effective in selling books. 

Comments

[RabbitDawg]

Micheal, thank you (and thank you Subversive Thinking blog) for bringing this book to our attention. It seems that most NDE related books lately are rehashed "campfire stories", or pseudo-scientific treatises with a New-Age spin.

I'm on my second reading of Science and the Near-Death Experience right now, and I can tell that before long, I'll need to buy a another copy. I don't usually want to fully read the same book twice, but this is the best book concerning NDE's and the continuation of consciousness that I have read yet. Seriously.

Your comparison to Irreducible Mind is spot on, but Chris Carter makes a clearer, more comprehensive, easier to digest case here. Yet the content is deep and fairly complex.
If I had to think of a way to describe it, Science and the Near-Death Experience is like Irreducible Mind, with even more information and well developed arguments, but without the eye-glazing, mind-numbing prose.

Another good thing. Mr. Carter never uses the word "proof". By avoiding the P-word, while presenting such an overwhelming case, he gives the concept of the continuation of consciousness very real credibility. He's not afraid to take on any skeptic, from any direction.

[Art]

"a crash course in quantum mechanics and its major interpretations (though omitting David Bohm's "holographic universe");"
--------------------------------------------

Sigh! That makes me sad. I find the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory to be one of the most evidential things about near death experiences.

"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from mark horton's nde, http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

"The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected." - excerpt from Kelly K's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm

"The last impression I can recall lasted a brief instant. I was moving at high speed toward a net of great luminosity." - excerpt from Victor Solow's NDE, http://tatfoundation.org/forum2003-12.htm

"I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere. I knew that everything is perfect and happening according to some divine plan, regardless of all the things we see as wrong with the world." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience, http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/dreamsvisions-kundalini.htm

"Time lost all meaning. The odd thing was I had clear vision, and I am legally blind w/o my glasses. I also was able to see in many directions at once. I was looking down on my body, and out of my body's eyes simultaneously, as well as behind me and outside of the tent doors...(snip)...I was part of a collective consciousness, the universe. everything was connected....(snip)...Time had no meaning, everything was one and everything was so awe inspiring. I had no realization of who I was humanly anymore, everything was me and I was everything and everything was all connected." - excerpt from Cara's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/cara_m_nde.htm

compare to The Universe as a Hologram (excerpt):
"If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web. In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

The connection, congruence, corroboration, parallels, however you want to explain it is obvious. People don't just come up with this stuff off the top of their heads. The parallels between NDEs and the holographic universe are obvious.

[Sandy]

Michael, thanks for the review. I hope your personal situation is OK. I wish you well on that front.

I'm looking forward to this book. I don't read as much about NDEs as I would like to. It just hits too close to home I guess. I'm almost afraid to taint my own experience by reading too much on the subject.

[Pearl]

Thanks for the review . I have just ordered it from Amazon UK.

[michael duggan]

Art love's his holograms!

Michael, Thank you for an excellent review. Will probably buy it now.

Chris Carter has recently produced a brilliant response to Wiseman's recent criticism of parapsychology. It can be found here:

http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/Carter_Wiseman.pdf

[kris]

I hate to sound mean but does Keith seriously deserve a comment in Carter's book? His arguments are just rehashing what has been said by other NDE Skeptics.

[Sandy]

OMG! First Art makes a very "Art-like" post, and now Kris does the same. *sigh*

Makes it all feel very much like a comfy familiar hangout. :)

[dmduncan]

Skeptics are just AFRAID of the world. They FEAR what they don't know or understand and protest it any way they can.

Perhaps they secretly feel that conceding the evidence for paranormal phenomenon means there may be monsters under the bed too.

Chris Carter's Wiseman response was good.

[dmduncan]

Wiseman is anything but.

[Art]

Sandy don't you find the congruence between this strange?

from The Universe as a Hologram:
"Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole."

and, "I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience

and, "I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from mark horton's nde

Two near death experiencers making statements that almost verbatim match a characteristic of a holographic piece of film? And then numerous physicists make statements that they believe our Universe has "holographic" like qualities? Don't you find that evidential?

The implications are mind boggling. It means whatever is "here" also has to be "there." All the things in this life that we have "lost" will still exist on the other side. All the separation that we have experienced in this life won't exist in the next.

and read in conjunction with numerous articles written in reputable scientific journals the implications are startling and amazing.

"If this doesn’t blow your socks off, then Hogan, who has just been appointed director of Fermilab’s Center for Particle Astrophysics, has an even bigger shock in store: ‘If the GEO600 result is what I suspect it is, then we are all living in a giant cosmic hologram.’" - excerpt from The holographic universe: When it pays to be first, http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2010/02/19/the-holographic-universe-when-it-pays-to-be-first/

[Sandy]

I wouldn't call it strange, Art. Things are what they are. Actually, things are pretty amazing.

[kris]

Sandy

Keith has no UNIQUE ORIGINAL arguments, therefore by dealing with the arguments that he has Carter has dealt with Augustine. Carter has to deal with arguments. He is not obligated to mention every person who has used those arguments.

[Aftrbrnr]

I haven't read the book but as for his section on neuroscience, I think he cited who he did because I think within neuroscience, a non-materialist view is a minority in that field so Carter pretty much picked out the few guys who support that view.

I think neuroscience isn't going to budge much unless soul and the spiritual world becomes something that can be observed and quantified. I continue to here skeptics harp that parapsychology (and other paranormal fields such as UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.) are "arguing from ignorance" because they continue trying to prove phenomenon exists while apparently never trying to explain why such phenomenon exists. E.g. Things like Ganzfeld shows PSI may exist, but no attempts are (apparently) made to explain how that PSI works.

[Sandy]

Kris, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just enjoying how comfortable things are when people do what they do.

Aftrbrnr, there are attempts being made to explain how psi works. Michael Persinger, for instance, certainly seems to be looking at mechanisms.

http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/13/4/515

[jack]

"I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere

.>>> I knew that everything is perfect<<<

and happening according to some divine plan, regardless of all the things we see as wrong with the world." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience, http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/dreamsvisions-kundalini.htm

I have never had such a "feeling" and it seems to clash with almost everything in this "vale of tears".
The treatment of women since the year one is a glaring example of this. e.g Another mammal, the giant panda, gives birth to a cub that weighs 1/800 of her body weight (i.e about 4 ounces).It seems very unlikely that any female panda dies in child birth. And they have been around for over 5 million years
Even E.Katharine Bates, in her book "Seen and Unseen" mentions a friend who had trouble with the aphorism "God is in his heaven and all is right with the world" (IIRC this was Mrs.Tennant)
Is this an example of the definition of "faith".i.e to believe the unbelievable?

[Art]

"Things like Ganzfeld shows PSI may exist, but no attempts are (apparently) made to explain how that PSI works." - Aftrbrnr
--------------------------------------------

That's what Michael Talbot's whole book, The Holographic Universe, is about.

"Talbot explains in clear terms the theory and physics of holography and its application, both in science and in explanation of the paranormal and psychic. His theory of reality accommodates this latest thinking in physics as well as many unresolved mind-body questions. This well-written and fascinating study is recommended for science collections.
- Hilary D. Burton, Lawrence Livermore National Lab., Livermore, Cal.

"The remaining 2/3 of the book is a discussion of how the holographic paradigm may provide a rational basis for interpreting a wide variety of phenomenon located around the fringes of established science." - Damian Nash, master's degree in neuroscience and chaos/complexity theory

[dmduncan]

Thanks for that quote on EM, Michael. The Eliminative Materialist argument is about as cogent as an argument for solipsism. And that tells you how competent some of these people are able to be when dealing with unusual events.

They ONLY WANT the usual suspects.

They are not on a voyage of discovery, they are pouring pots of hot oil over the ramparts on anyone who tries to climb the walls.

[Tony M]

Michael: I agree with you about the structure and ordering of the book. The discussion of quantum physics up front may be a difficult hurdle for some people to clear. (Of course, that may be his point - to make it clear that this is not a touch feel book of wonderful stories.)

That said, I felt he did a better job in the physics discussion here than in Parapsychology and the Skeptics. He really delivers a crushing blow to the Randis and Shermers of the world. He clearly demonstrates that the world of classic applied materialism (which skeptics like to call 'science') simply DOES NOT APPLY in quantum mechanics, the "most battle tested" scientific theory ever. If their version of ‘science’ doesn’t actually apply to science…then they are doing nothing more than making uniformed faith-based assertions.

He also, without directly stating it, he also exposes the short comings of the type of linguistic-logical philosophy of the last century, which tended to define truth within internal logical constructs. This is most clearly seen in his descriptions of Gerd Hovelmann argument of ‘linguistic slovenliness’ as a refutation of the survival hypothesis. The vapidity of the argument is made clear in short order.

Carter does not break new ground here, nor does he claim to. But the book is a great summary of the current state of near death studies and the increasingly clear implications that we survive our bodily deaths.

[ubs]

Sandy don't you find the congruence between this strange?

Art, you keep refering to Mark Horton's NDE. Have you even investigated if the man ever existed? It could be someone just making a joke?

[RabbitDawg]

In a way, the object of Science and the Near-Death Experience is to present a well researched and thought out declaration for the scientific basis of dualism, and the continuation of consciousness. A very strong case is made for seeing the brain as a tool for the mind to use, and not the source of consciousness - we are not computers made of meat.
Chris Carter simply uses NDE's to illustrate the point.

This book was not intended to explore or explain the full nature of the Universe, or otherworldly realms. To do so would have have been a distraction from his case. Holographic, Plasma, Big Bang, Superstring/M-theory presentations would have muddied the water.
Part of the appeal of the book is that he is so unrelenting and focused.

I like what one of the Amazon reviewers posted:
"He never flinches, yet he meets this dogma, which depends so heavily on ridicule, without ridicule of his own. His arguments have the feel of a Zen swordsman, dispassionate but deadly accurate."

[Art]

"Art, you keep refering to Mark Horton's NDE. Have you even investigated if the man ever existed? It could be someone just making a joke?" - ubs
-------------------------

If that were the only near death experience I had ever read and it was the only one that paralleled or was congruent with the holographic universe theory that might be true. I have however read thousands of near death experiences and a large percentage of them say things that are congruent with the holographic universe theory.

I have been reading about and studying near death experiences, death bed visions, and the holographic universe theory for 10 years and have read numerous books and articles about it.

I am not the first one to notice the connection and am in good company with Dr. Ken Ring, Dr. Melvin Morse, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Oswald Harding, and many others making note about the obvious connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory.

[Art]

I'm sorry I seem to have turned on the italics and can't seem to get it to turn off.

[Michael Prescott]

I turned them off. It wasn't you, Art.

RabbitDawg, that's a great quote.

[Bruce Siegel]

Michael, thanks for a great review of this book. I've just been reading the Kindle free excerpt online, and I'm already blown away . . . by the foreword!

It's written by Neal Grossman, and what a beautiful little piece it is. He starts with the obvious but powerful fact that:

"The history of science is replete with examples of ideas, concepts, and theories that at one time were accepted as true, but which are now known to be false. Once upon a time, it was quite reasonable to believe that Earth is the center of the universe, that it is flat . . . that women are inferior to men . . . "

It's an often-expressed thought, I know, but once again it reminds me how absurd it is that anyone could ever feel arrogant or smug—much less certain—about the facts.

And he moves forward from there, building to this:

"There is a message hidden in all this research, and it is a message that successful academics do no want to hear. The message is universal love. Every near-death experiencer is convinced that the purpose of life is to grow in our ability to give and receive love. And NDE researchers—as well as mediumship researchers—have themselves come to this same conclusion, but academic life is the opposite of loving. . . .They believe, and need to believe, that the purpose of life is to 'win'. . ."

Anyway—not new ideas, perhaps, but nicely said. If the book lives up to the foreword—and having read Carter's previous book, I suspect it will—I'll be mightily pleased.

[dmduncan]

"It's an often-expressed thought, I know, but once again it reminds me how absurd it is that anyone could ever feel arrogant or smug—much less certain—about the facts."

The certainty sneaks in later. They know they are making the inductive leap and that there is no certainty in that, but before long the uncertainty part gets dismissed — perhaps reappointed at times to defend themselves during arguments with those who call their BS — and then they return to that comfy sofa afterwards, speaking in the assuring tones and inflections that lie.

I haven't read the book yet (on my list), but I AM glad that someone like Carter is challenging the nonsense.

[dmduncan]

"There is a message hidden in all this research, and it is a message that successful academics do no want to hear. The message is universal love. Every near-death experiencer is convinced that the purpose of life is to grow in our ability to give and receive love. And NDE researchers—as well as mediumship researchers—have themselves come to this same conclusion, but academic life is the opposite of loving. . . .They believe, and need to believe, that the purpose of life is to 'win'. . ."

I saw Social Network today. There were two decent people in the entire movie. A woman whose cousin went to Harvard tells me that he'd never seen so many people out of touch with what it is to be human in one place, a view which that movie also conveys.

I came away from it thinking that a good portion of the world's problems can be solved just by closing down Harvard, and schools like them.

[Bruce Siegel]

"They know they are making the inductive leap and that there is no certainty in that"

Actually, DM, I wonder whether many—maybe even most—people skip that step and that awareness, and simply "inherit" the certainty of others.

"I came away from it thinking that a good portion of the world's problems can be solved just by closing down Harvard, and schools like them."

One of my favorite books, "Expecting Adam", was written by a woman who, while a grad student at Harvard, learned that she was pregnant with a Downs Syndrome fetus. She writes about how everyone at Harvard—her professors, doctors, and most of her classmates—were adamant that she abort the infant.

But along with her pregnancy—because of it, in fact—she began to have an assortment of spiritual experiences that ripped her out of her previously atheistic mindset. She gradually came to realize that having that infant was the greatest gift of her life, and describes how bringing the child to term and finally giving birth to it in the context of the Harvard community, was like living in the enemy's camp.

Some of the key scenes in the book take place in William James Hall. The fact that a Harvard building is named after James always strikes me as pretty ironic, considering how those academic folk must view his most mature work.

[Bruce Siegel]

Not just his most mature work, actually, but his best. Anyway, that's how I see it! (And I'm totally unbiased.) ;o)

Always wanted to try out that wink thing.

[Aftrbrnr]

I think we might be giving too much credit to how materialistic academic places like Harvard are. While it maybe a strong view, I think a lot of people here think everyone at a university is a materialist, which I think is far from the truth.

The university I attend has a church on campus, and as far as I know so do places like Harvard. This might seem like a weak argument to some, but I've noticed my school does give allow delays for students on things such as religious beliefs. This is my opinion, but if materialism had as strong as a grip on society as we thought, I don't think things such as the above would exist on universities. Heck, things like the Duke parapsychology lab shouldn't exist if that was the case, nor should some of the research that Sandy mentions that goes on about things like PSI and remote viewing, or Schwartz's experiments over in Arizona.

I'm not saying materialism isn't a dominant force in academia, but if you consider some of the above things that goes on at some institutions, those things really shouldn't be if materialism was that strong of a belief.

[Ian Wardell]

On page 138 of the book Chris Carter compares NDEs from India to those from America. In both countries NDEers sometimes get the message that it is not their time and are apparently sent back by otherworldy figures.

In America they receive the message that they are being sent back because they still have work to do or that they have obligations to those who are still living. In other words they get sent back because of some unfinished business. To me this certainly seems sensible enough and is plausible.

However those people who have undergone NDEs from India report that these otherworldly figures informed them that they had been a mistake and therefore needed to go back!

Now I submit that it is clearly ludicrous to imagine that a mistake had been made! But regardless of whether we consider it to be ludicrous or not, it seems highly unlikely that Americans and Indians get sent back for different reasons.

Hence we seem to be obliged to conclude that neither the reasons given for the Americans to return, or the reasons for the Indians to return, are actually true.

Which means these otherworldly figures are not actually telling NDE experiencers the truth. I think that this must give some evidence against the hypothesis that NDEs are a glimpse of the afterlife realm. What do others think?

[rick49]

Some of the key scenes in the book take place in William James Hall. The fact that a Harvard building is named after James always strikes me as pretty ironic, considering how those academic folk must view his most mature work

Yeah that really kills me too. When I was applying to psychology graduate programs in the seventies the only graduate school that I knew of at the time that emphasized Jame's Radical Empiricism method was Duquesne University's Graduate School of Psychology which emphasizes the work of the late 19th and 20th century phenomenolgists, especially Edmund Husserl. James wanted to take psychologist into the direction that Alan B Wallace is trying to resurrect almost 120 years later i.e.subjective experience can be studied empirically. Alas, my training occurred during he Behavioral "the mind is irrelevant"era. The mind began to slip back slowly into American psychology only very slowly with the early cognitive pioneers, especially the entertaining curmudgeon and funny Albert Ellis.

My point in this is that I believe that Consciousness studies and Transpersnal Psychology is in the early stages of once again becoming a viable academic subject for research. I'm closing my career of over 30 years just at the time my field is legitimizing what I wanted to do in my twenties. Oh the Irony!

Heck, things like the Duke parapsychology lab shouldn't exist if that was the case

Unfortunately the Duke Parapsychology lab has been closed for a long time. Thank goodness for Gary Schwartz's ability to get his DMT research back into academia. I think that his MD was an important factor.

Interestingly the preeminent American scholar of Comparative Religion,Huston Smith, partook in the famous Easter Sunday LSD study done at a chapel at Harvard Univ in the early sixties before psychedelics was marginalized and criminalized thus ending legitimate academic research for almost 30 years. Stan Grov was a voice in the wilderness during that period. I grieve those lost years of research in consciousness and subjective transpersonal states that could have occurred in my field during those lost 30 years. For me, it's like grieving the loss of music that as never written after the untimely deaths of George Gershwin, John Lennon, Buddy Holly and Sam Cook.

[dmduncan]

"Which means these otherworldly figures are not actually telling NDE experiencers the truth. I think that this must give some evidence against the hypothesis that NDEs are a glimpse of the afterlife realm. What do others think?"

I think that whether the words used are "there's been a mistake" or "it's not your time," they practically amount to the same thing that can be explained by how different cultures employ the words used.

If it's not your time, then why are you in peril of crossing over? there's been a mistake — even if we regard such mistakes as some lesson to convey to others, some people may describe that as a mistake.

Either way, the idea is that something is happening which is not to be completed yet. The result anticipated by the NDEr is misguided and should not happen yet.

[RabbitDawg]

I think that the 'pre-crossing over' stage that most NDEr's experience is more like a holding stage. Many experiencer's report that if they crossed a certain boundary (river, wall, light barrier, etc...), they could not turn back. In fact, some children report that they chatted with "a nice man", or relative, played with a pet, or even talked to an image of a living person (like a favorite teacher) for a while, and that the experience served to comfort them while they waited to return. There does seem to be an illusory aspect to the experience, yet it is quite real at the same time. Often, experiencer's report that the images dissolve into bright lights.

The 'near' part of the Near Death Experience seems to be designed to cushion the impact. It doesn't strike me a a lie, so much as a compassionate, loving welcome. Sort of like a mother holding, cooing and soothing her newborn baby.

[Michael Prescott]

DMDuncan took the words out of my mouth, or the pixels off my screen, or whatever.

I would add that some Western NDEs clearly suggest that a mistake has been made. I remember one in which the NDEr was heading down the tunnel and saw his (or her) mother at the end. The mother appeared welcoming at first, but all of a sudden she looked upset and started waving her hands in such a way as to signal "Go back!" The clear impression was that the mother had suddenly realized there was a mistake, and the NDEr was not supposed to be there yet.

The "bureaucratic" nature of Indian NDEs may be explained by cultural expectations - such as the belief in yamadoots (impersonal messengers of death), as Carter mentions.

[Sandy]

I think you have to remember that when an NDEr describes their experience, they are stuck using words. But the experience itself is beyond language. Words suck. So you end up translating that experience as best you can using words that just don't fit the context.

I think the cultural differences may come about because all you can do is translate an experience that can't be described into something more familiar. So of course your culture influences how you do that.

[Felipe]

I have several family members who either attend Harvard now - or graduated - and a bunch of others at/or graduated from similar Ivy League institutions, including 2 sisters.

I - on the other hand, went to a school more in line with my intellectual assets and skill set - a local University that had a great beer pong program..:-)

The idea that a disproportionate amount of people at Harvard - or an Ivy league school would support aborting a fetus with down's syndrome - or are bad people in general - or are "anti-spiritual" - is just plain silly.....specious.....wrong...and is more a reflection of your own world view, and the sort of people you bump up against in everyday life.

Surely you must realize that some of the most ardent supporters and pioneers of the alternative health/wellness and spiritual science practitioners emanate from these very schools.....making the William James library feel, in retrospect, a tad less ironic)

(even though WJ is much less known for his paranormal interests than other pursuits anyway)

Just my 2 cents..:-)

[Bruce Siegel]

"Surely you must realize that some of the most ardent supporters and pioneers of the alternative health/wellness and spiritual science practitioners emanate from these very schools"

Boy, you grabbed my attention with that, Felipe. "Spiritual science practitioner" from Harvard or other Ivy League school? Can you give me a name or two?

[michael duggan]

exactly Sandy, and this is reflected in childrens NDE accounts, which use typically immature ways of describing essentially similar experiences that adults have.

[Bruce Siegel]

"My point in this is that I believe that Consciousness studies and Transpersnal Psychology is in the early stages of once again becoming a viable academic subject for research."

Good to hear from you, Rick! Yes, things do change. I can hardly believe that in a couple of weeks, here in California, I get to vote on legalizing marijuana. Did I really just type those words?

[Felipe]

Bruce - John Mack was a very respected "paranormal" researcher who I believe was teaching at Harvard at or around his time of death (even though some of the faculty had issues with his area of focus later in life) Dr. Gary Schwartz, often cited here for yay or neigh.....is affiliated with Harvard (I believe either undergraduate or taught) as is/was Andrew Weil.....as is/was the Princeton lab, Etc, etc.

The scalpel and the soul (I forget the doctor's name...and the exact name of the book if that ain't it..:-) I believe was Harvard, if not another IVY, etc.

There is certainly NO lack of academics who are interested in this whole field - and the notion that an IVY league education is somehow an impediment to the topics we discuss here is just flat wrong. (and of course, like any other broad generalization or silly stereotype, not fair either)

[Felipe]

BTW - didn't Chris Carter - the author whose work we are discussing on this VERY post - go to to Oxford?

From an academic elitist ego perspective - I think Oxford is one of the very few that trumps Harvard amongst those who keep score.:-)

Ignorance or enlightenment, in my experience, has very little to do with where one went to college.

[Bruce Siegel]

" John Mack was a very respected 'paranormal' researcher at Harvard . . . . (even though some of the faculty had issues with his area of focus later in life)"

That's putting it mildly, Felipe! He had to fight to hold on to his tenure there:

"The book [Abduction] led Harvard Medical School, where Dr. Mack had been a tenured professor for several years, to appoint a committee to review his research methods and consider censuring him. After 14 months of investigation, it released a statement saying that it ''reaffirmed Dr. Mack's academic freedom to study what he wishes and to state his opinion without impediment.''

So I guess you could praise Harvard for their final decision, or fault them for making Mack's life hell during that long period.

I do hear what you're saying, though, Felipe. And I agree that it's easy to fall into the "us vs them" trap, which I don't want to do.

Nevertheless, I think you'd have a hard time making the argument that mainstream academia has been a supportive environment for pursuing research in consciousness, parapsychology, or spirituality.

Just ask Rick49, who struggled within that system for 30 years, and whose post above speaks volumes.

[Bruce Siegel]

On second thought, i guess you can't really lose tenure, huh? By definition? Not quite sure how that works.

Anyway, censuring doesn't sound pretty.

[dmduncan]

"Bruce - John Mack was a very respected 'paranormal' researcher who I believe was teaching at Harvard at or around his time of death (even though some of the faculty had issues with his area of focus later in life)"

Calling Mack a paranormal researcher is a stretch. He studied abduction stories as a professional psychiatrist and thought he couldn't explain what was happening through the usual explanations, which doesn't mean that he thought aliens were really abducting people. That hardly makes him a paranormal researcher.

Mack was also the target of an intense investigation by Harvard Medical for what he was doing, so the faculty was hardly high five-ing him in the hallways for his open mindedness.

[dmduncan]

"BTW - didn't Chris Carter - the author whose work we are discussing on this VERY post - go to to Oxford?"

I don't know. But did Oxford make him smart? He wouldn't have been Chris Carter if he went to his local community college instead?

[dmduncan]

How many colleges are doing paranormal research right now? Anyone know of any?

[dmduncan]

I found a quote from an interesting review of Carter's Parapsychology and the Skeptics which I think neatly encapsulates what skeptics do; this is from T. Rowe:

"If real, replicable evidence were found it would instantly become a huge story in science journals. Until then,"

Leaving aside the question of whether he is justified equating "real" evidence with "replicable" evidence, his words correctly acknowledge that science is tentative, leaving open the possibility that evidence may indeed be found some day, but then he writes:

"believers in psychic powers will have to go on living in their own fantasy world."

In the next sentence it instantly becomes a "fantasy" which is something incapable of ever providing evidence of some possible reality.

The position is logically incoherent. He opens the door, and then slams it shut.

[Felipe]

Actually, DMD - in the context of the above comment, it's not a stretch at all.

Mack wrote much about the spiritual, transformative nature of the "abduction" experience, wrote and spoke about PK - spoke at several conferences that were sympathetic to survival, and clearly was open to work of his peers in these areas we speak of here, as many of the eulogies reflect.

But really - who cares - that wasn't the point I was trying to make - only that a Harvard degree doesn't make one predisposed to skeptical thought - or killing fetuses with down syndrome - or voting for Tea party candidates, or any other bad ideas.

And like you mention above - I don't care if Chris Carter went to Oxford - or Oklohoma State - I just tend to be less suspicious of folks with fancy degrees on their wall than others here, I guess...and don't find the "us verus them" drumbeat productive, interesting or intelligent.

[dmduncan]

"Mack wrote much about the spiritual, transformative nature of the "abduction" experience, wrote and spoke about PK - spoke at several conferences that were sympathetic to survival, and clearly was open to work of his peers in these areas we speak of here, as many of the eulogies reflect."

Clearly he was open to it and that's probably the main reason he was investigated for it. If I remember correctly from my reading of him years ago, he took it seriously but did not make conclusions to the paranormal; I think he repeated it often enough that a true explanation, in his professional view, eluded all the known psychological explanations, and that was about it.

"But really - who cares - that wasn't the point I was trying to make - only that a Harvard degree doesn't make one predisposed to skeptical thought - or killing fetuses with down syndrome - or voting for Tea party candidates, or any other bad ideas."

Well if you mean more likely to hold skeptical views, how do you know? Your relatives? John Mack (versus a committee)? We aren't talking about going to a bar, but to a school. A place where teachers DO influence your thinking about the world. Of all the universities in America, how many have paranormal studies? That number will tell you exactly how seriously it is taken.

Also, I certainly don't feel like it's "us versus them." It's more like "them versus reality." I don't care if they believe or not. Ask me how many I've tried to persuade.

[Aftrbrnr]

I agree with Felipe that the "us vs. them" mentality isn't really helpful and I think it arises from the hostility that some skeptics have had over the years towards proponents and their views. As I've said early here, I don't think materialism has as firm of a grip on academia as one may think.

[michael duggan]

I agree with the previous comments regarding materialism's hold in academia. Parapsychology used to be a dirty word in European psychology, now there are nearly 20 departments in the UK alone with at least one member with an interest. The situation is not as evolved in the US unfortunately.

[Art]

Something I just wrote and wanted to share. This is what I think is true.

Pain and the physical body

The soul uses the physical body to learn about the physical universe. Mosquito bites, scratches, burns, paper cuts, stubbing your toe, hitting your funny bone, are all ways that the soul holistically imprints the physical parameters of the body. What it means and how it feels to be inside a body. Like pixels on a TV screen, the more "bits of information" the clearer the picture.

What it means to learn holistically is that the information is embedded in our everyday lives. It is not an active kind of learning but passive. Just as you go about your daily lives you are learning without even realizing it. When you bake a cake you learn about measurements and fractions and when you build a doghouse you learn about angles, geometry, fractions, etc. If you read a historical novel there is oftentimes a good bit of real history embedded in the book. Little children learn a lot holistically before they ever start to school.

I had a niece that was a cutter. She was compelled to take knives and slice her body. I read that one of the reasons that cutters cut themselves is that they are just wanting to feel "something". I've noticed that a lot of cutters are young girls who live in protected environments. Protected from bug bites, or being scratched and bitten by flies and mosquitoes. I now wonder if the soul somehow isn't taking over or compelling these individuals to cut themselves in order to imprint information. The soul only has a very short amount of time to imprint the information it needs before returning to the spiritual universe so it has to gather enough information to last for eternity in one lifetime. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

All over the world people have intentionally hurt themselves and made all kinds of excuses and stories to go along with this self-mutilation. I wonder if there isn't a much deeper spiritual reason why people do the things they do. For instance in Malaysia and Thailand they stick metal spikes through their skin, in the Philipines they re-enact the crucifixion, North American Indians used to hang themselves by hooks through their chest and back muscles. During the middle ages self flagellators whipped themselves with whips to atone for their sins.

Perhaps what was really going on is that through the pain they feel they are all imprinting on the soul the shape and parameters of the body. It's a way of experiencing time and space, what it feels like to be in a body. And it's all encoded as bits of information; which will be accessible after we cross over to use to "recreate" a body because heaven seems to be a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality. The more bits of information, or "pixels" of information the more clear or dense with information will be the recreation?

[Aftrbrnr]

I actually find it funny, duggan, that you say that parapsychology is more involved in the UK. I always thought that considering that Europe was more atheistic than the US that certainly such subjects would be a serious taboo.

[dmduncan]

"The situation is not as evolved in the US"

Nope.

The thread is a review of Carter's new book which, as MP points out, is an evidential case pro survival and con extinction. And given that we are the carriers of our ideas, and this is a discussion about competing ideas, it is a thread about Chris Carter vs. the skeptics. However you choose to characterize it — and some ways may be more accurate than others — there is an x versus y taking place

Some may prefer to hope that widely accepted fallacies and obfuscations whither away on their own without opposition, but I like Carter's idea of exposing them to pressure, better.

[dmduncan]

"North American Indians used to hang themselves by hooks through their chest and back muscles."

They still do, Art. Every summer in many places, that is one of the ways that they pray.

They are guided by their ancestors who are usually, during Sweats and Yuwipi, the spirits of deceased medicine men who are there to help those who are living.

[Jane B]

Art, that's a really neat theory, and makes some sense. While some ways of collecting information may be healthier than others, it is obviously an issue that must be dealt with very sensitively and with an open mind. I sometimes wonder about people who are immediately repulsed by the idea of someone engaging in an activity such as self-flagellation. As I said, it's highly sensitive, and I'm not condoning or condemning any particular activity, but your theory is a very interesting way of thinking about such things, especially the idea of the purpose being able to "re-create" a body from memory.

[Cyrus]

Hi Art,

I've had some similar conclusions as yours, about how we might be imprinting information to 'recreate' the body later on.

My issue is sometimes it seems like everything 'over there' must be a recreation of things 'here'. Which, to me, seems like a place that's less real. More like stepping into a computer simulation.

Then, after I read some credible medium teachings (Flint, Silver Birch, etc), I would see repeated multiple times, this notion: that everything HERE is a third-rate copy of things which naturally exist THERE.

IE: Water was there first, before it was here. Sex was there first, before it was used here. Humans were there first long, long before humans were here.

This leads me to believe this notion might be wrong. We may not be programming ourselves for a recreation of ourselves, per-se. I think all these physical aspects somehow already existed in other planes.

But what we ARE stuck with is materiality, AKA it's impossible for the mind to objectively influence matter (or at least, it's very difficult) because of the density. So if we break a leg, we are stuck with a broken leg and there is nothing we can do about it.

This purpose is about discipline and learning cooperation. We must all work together to overcome this horrendous handicap called being in the physical plane.

[Cyrus]

And, regarding 'cutting':

I am sorry about your niece. I think there is a spiritual element to pain. But I don't think it necessarily involves your theory.

Pain is only 'bad' because our brain tells us it's bad. It's the sensation that alerts us that something is wrong, and to preserve the physical body we are programmed to avoid the feeling.

But pain also drowns out all other sensation and feeling. Sometimes I'm in pain if I'm lifting weights at the gym. It feels great! Everything else fades away.

If someone is very depressed, pain may be an adequate replacement for feelings of depression, much like how worries and stresses about life are not apparent if I am pushing myself to lift one more set of weights. When you are depressed, and you feel pain, it feels better than the depression.

I think pain and discomfort serve a purpose. I've read in one medium account the communicator describing pain as existing in the next world, only it's more dull and harder to initiate. (I believe he was referring to when he pinches himself).

Which leads me to the question of the ages, perhaps somebody here could answer this:

Imagine, you are in the afterlife, in your post-physical body, which is still 'physical', but you can see in panoramic vision, fly around, and teleport wherever you need to go. Fair enough.

So, we understand such a world is not completely non-physical; there is still physics which would accompany an objective realm. I imagine you can sit on a couch, juggle stones and tie shoelaces.

What would happen if, in this realm, you fell into the equivalent of a meat-shredder? Your non-physical body is completely, utterly dismembered by a hundred spinning blades.

Would you still experience pain? Furthermore, what would happen to 'you'? If your body is destroyed, do you fly around as a formless spirit, and you have to get help from higher-ups to help you reform a body again?

In the book, which is now becoming a movie, Our Home - In The Astral (Nosso Lar), the author(s) describe an instance in their borderland astral city where they must activate a self-defense system to attack some invading forces of darkness.

If such a depiction is true, it makes one wonder to what extent the next world's physics are different from ours. What is the range of entropy? Is destruction still possible?

These are things I think about. But, I'm pretty eccentric. :-)

[Michael Prescott]

Robert Crookall's investigations led him to believe that if the physical body is annihilated by an explosion, the astral body is also blown apart and must reconstitute itself. Luckily it is able to do this fairly quickly. See "Intimations of Immortality," by Crookall.

Shamans who go on vision quests often have the experience of being dismembered by spiritual beings and then put back together. Perhaps this subjective experience connects with the purification and reconstitution of the spirit body.

People who claim to have been abducted by aliens also frequently report being surgically operated on, in terms similar to the shamanic stories. Perhaps they are misinterpreting an OBE as a physical experience, and misinterpreting a spiritual cleansing or reorganizing process as a scary invasive procedure.

Michael Newton's hypnotized subjects sometimes say that they underwent purification after returning from an earthly life. The process they describe involves energy healing, in which negative aspects of their energy are stripped away, while their positive energy is strengthened.

So it would seem that spirit bodies require healing of various kinds, ranging from minor "tune-ups" to wholesale re-creation. But instead of feeling physical pain, injured discarnates seem to feel tired, confused, scared, or sad.

[Cyrus]

Makes sense. I'd be confused, and sad, if my body blew up and I was just floating around.

[Art]

excerpt from Randy Gehling's (age 10) near death experience:
"That was really cool! I kind of felt as though my body exploded - in a nice way - and became a million different atoms - and each single atom could think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. All at once I seemed to feel like I was a boy, a girl, a dog, a cat, a fish. Then I felt like I was an old man, an old woman - and then a little tiny baby."
http://near-death.com/experiences/animals04.html
--------------------------------------------
Maybe I didn't communicate exactly what I was trying to say, or say it properly? It's sort of like this. Let's say we are spiritual beings. If we had never been in a physical body how would we know what it felt like to make love to someone? If you had never made love to another person before and you were reading about it watching a video of two people making love would you really be able to empathize or feel what they were doing? Because of the holographic nature of Heaven, when we are there we will be able to know what it is like to be everything in the Universe, whales, dolphins, golden eagles, etc. Just by focusing our attention on them we will know what it felt like to fly like an eagle, swim like a dolphin, or dive to the bottom of the ocean like a whale.

Let's say I was writing a novel and in the novel I was trying to describe some guy drinking a martini and he gets to the bottom and he takes the green olive and eats it. Now if you had never eaten an olive before there aren't enough adjectives or ways for me to describe that you would really know what that olive tasted like unless at some point in your life you had actually put an olive in your mouth and bit down on it and tasted it. If you had when I'm describing the guy eating an olive you would be able to relate to it and you would know exactly what the olive tastes like.

There are a myriad of things in life like that. Driving a car, riding a bike, riding a wave in the ocean, that little feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you are riding a bike and you go over a hump in the road real fast. If you have never eaten a plate of spaghetti and you see someone eating spaghetti you wouldn't be able to taste and feel that feeling.

This life is simply about learning what it's like to be physical. What it feels like to be inside a body, to be limited by a body, to control a physical body. What it feels like to make love, eat, taste, see, hear, etc. We are simply a spiritual being having a physical experience and every soul learns what it's supposed to learn regardless of who we are or where we live or what we believe. Belief is irrelevant. The Creator of the Universe was so smart that it was able to create a universe where we learn what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not. It's called learning holistically. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is imprinted with enough information to share with every other soul after it crosses back over into the Spiritual Universe.

[Cyrus]

Hi Art,

No, I understand exactly what you mean. I think we may have different ideas about the hereafter. Not that either of us are necessarily wrong.

Your philosophy suggests that experiences are required physically, in order to essentially re-experience them non-physically.

Such as the NDE quote you offered. As you describe: 'holographicaly' a soul can be many different things; and can be part of a whole collective of experiences. You have to learn what spaghetti is like in the physical dimension, to be able to understand this concept when you become a higher entity.

You know Art, I just don't think I agree with this. And, I understand the concept because there are NDE accounts where it makes sense to draw this conclusion. And, it's also the exact same way I used to view the world. I think the theory has some validity. But, it's not the whole story. Please hear me out:

This way of viewing the afterlife seems to suggest that physical experiences are solely limited to this plane of existence. In other words, without eating spaghetti on Earth, it's impossible for an ethereal person to understand anything about this concept.

Now, if the next realm were completely non-physical, I would agree with this. If we died, and all of us became blobs of energy-consciousness, living a fractal-universe of thought-forms without mass, form, or substance--dwelling entirely through the exchange of thought-- then physical experience would be the only way to experience riding a bike, eating spaghetti, or making love to somebody.

And this leads us back to an extremely important topic, and that's the necessity of physical experience. There's so much about being on Earth that I absolutely adore; including the experiences you listed. The NDE film "American Beauty" was a great representation of this; when Spacy's character reflects (post-mortem) on how beautiful every little inane physical moment is.

Perhaps as a newly minted demi-god, living in some much higher sphere after I croak, I can experience the lives of everyone else on Earth. I can be a boy riding a bike, a woman who falls in love, a guy eating spaghetti. Certainly, holographicaly, it's possible.

And, this would make sense if I were a non-physical creature. If I were a blob of formless light: my preoccupation would be the Earth realm, because I could never myself eat spaghetti again, or make love to a woman. A non-physical creature cannot experience physical sensation unless it has the experiences already programmed into its mental framework. So, that's why we're on Earth, clearly!

Not so fast.

What sort of lifestyle is that, of an ethereal voyeur? Dwelling on the programmed experiences of a brief episode of Earthly life?

The non-physical near death experience is not the only interpretation and account of the afterlife.

For every reason you just mentioned, from eating spaghetti to great sex, are the things that make us humans satisfied. The splendor of experience. This viewpoint that these concepts are only experienced on Earth and within our mental framework after we die, is extremely limiting because it holds the notion that Earth experiences are exclusive to life on Earth.

I propose, alternatively, that the afterlife CAN be a resoundingly physical environment. That there are semi-physical realms where people eat food, make love, dance, sing, do whatever they please just like we do on Earth.

Therefore, it would not be necessary to be on Earth to experience these things. You could be a newborn soul, right out in that Summerland realm described by so many mediums, and you can eat a piece of fruit, experience the sensation of touch, grow some flowers, construct a model airplane, do whatever you want. Why go to Earth to experience things which are already a natural part of life?

And this is the way it would have to be! because quite frankly I would be completely unsatisfied in an entirely non-physical existence! Without density of matter, there can be no true creation, and creation is what we thrive on.

And that leaves me with the view that we are not necessarily here for the purpose you described. We can experience these things without being on Earth. Therefore, we must be here for another reason. And, I would say it's because the conditions here are so much harsher versus other realms. This is our 'boot camp'. Those physical experiences we enjoy are not going anywhere, and will continue to be part of our lives in the future, but we will no longer be forced to endure the dilemmas of survival, pain, suffering, all of which strengthen our characters and mature us.

But I think it's an extremely important topic regarding the necessity of physical experience. I simply cannot hold the view that we are all formless blobs after we die, because this would be a 'downgrade' from physical life, which in certain ways is superior to a non-physical existence.

[Art]

Maybe that is why some souls choose to come back? They get tired of being a formless blob and only experiencing life vicariously? They want to "forget" so they can re-enter a physical body and "re-experience" life again so they can feel what it's like to be in love, eat, swim, ride a bike, etc.

But the problem with that scenario is that for a lot of people life is just one long series of pain and suffering. Life can be horrendous - like children in Africa that lose their parents to AIDS and then have to eke out a living in harsh horrifying conditions.

Perhaps the afterlife is a place where out thoughts are things and we can conjure up any kind of afterlife we might choose, like the Nexxus in Star Trek Generations, where everything works and there is no separation and when we fall in love there is no divorce or friends moving away or loved ones dying?

At this point is all speculation. I'm still thinking that the pain and suffering happen for a good reason though and it has something to do with the soul learning about what it means and how it feels to be "physical."

I may not have all the specifics down exactly yet, but I think I'm a whole lot closer than we are here because of something we've done. I'm fairly certain that this life is some kind of learning experience and it has something to do with holography and quantum physics.

[Cyrus]

Hi Art,
>
Maybe that is why some souls choose to come back? They get tired of being a formless blob and only experiencing life vicariously? They want to "forget" so they can re-enter a physical body and "re-experience" life again so they can feel what it's like to be in love, eat, swim, ride a bike, etc.
>

This would be a logical motivation to reincarnate, if such a grim reality were the truth behind otherworldly existence.

If you have to reincarnate to experience life, then "life" after death would be a misnomer. It would be more like "existence after death".

Fortunately for us, and everyone, I really don't think that's how it is. People reincarnate when they have unfinished business, or if they want to change their personal identity and try be someone new.

Imagine if there's something you really vowed to accomplish, and you didn't do it. That guilt may haunt you, and so you go to 'administration' to have them set you up with a new life on Earth to try again. I don't think people have to reincarnate because of the vapidity of some kind of afterlife-blob existence. Thank god.

Imagine what they would be telling us through mediums: "Get me out of here, all I do is float around all day and last night I got sucked into a vacuum cleaner.."

>
But the problem with that scenario is that for a lot of people life is just one long series of pain and suffering. Life can be horrendous - like children in Africa that lose their parents to AIDS and then have to eke out a living in harsh horrifying
conditions.
>

We are like teabags, and we only know our strength once we are in hot water (not my quote). Those who get through those experiences and resist temptation of succumbing to the darkness and becoming part of it, go on to become the really wise souls.

>
Perhaps the afterlife is a place where out thoughts are things and we can conjure up any kind of afterlife we might choose, like the Nexxus in Star Trek Generations, where everything works and there is no separation and when we fall in love there is no divorce or friends moving away or loved ones dying?
>

I think yes and no. There's always a subjective world, and an objective world. Thoughts do create reality, but the kicker is we must share that reality with others. There's clearly less loss in the next realm, but I don't think anyone is immune to the reality of others; you think it's bad when people die here, how about when your spouse decides to reincarnate and become somebody else? I think there's still loss, just in different forms.

I'm not sure if loss is always bad. It sure forges who we are.

[dmduncan]

I'll agree with Art if he promises me I can take my flashight collection with me. I've invested a lot of money in it. Might have some trouble letting go.

[michael duggan]

Aftrbrnr says:

"I actually find it funny, duggan, that you say that parapsychology is more involved in the UK. I always thought that considering that Europe was more atheistic than the US that certainly such subjects would be a serious taboo." - This is one of the major reasons why there is such a strong US taboo towards parapsychology, in which serious academics lump psi research with fundamentalist nonsense such as creationism and charismatic healing. In Europe there are people doing research on psi without much negativity from their peers.

[Roger Knights]

"it seems highly unlikely that Americans and Indians get sent back for different reasons.

"Hence we seem to be obliged to conclude that neither the reasons given for the Americans to return, or the reasons for the Indians to return, are actually true.

"Which means these otherworldly figures are not actually telling NDE experiencers the truth."

Maybe they're "speaking to their condition" -- i.e., giving experiencers a reason that they won't bridle at.

"I think that this must give some evidence against the hypothesis that NDEs are a glimpse of the afterlife realm."

Not necessarily -- they could just be being considerate and "politic."

[Bruce Siegel]

"I'll agree with Art if he promises me I can take my flashight collection with me. I've invested a lot of money in it. Might have some trouble letting go."

EVERYBODY takes their flashlight collection with them to the Other Side, DM. Why do you think that light at the end of the tunnel is so incredibly bright?

[dmduncan]

Thanks Bruce. That comforts me. : )

[sonic]

Sandy said,
"I think the cultural differences may come about because all you can do is translate an experience that can't be described into something more familiar. So of course your culture influences how you do that."

Brilliant!

[Aftrbrnr]

Interesting quotes of the day:

-----

"Religion is for ppl that need a belief/security there’s some kind of after life, the very thought is what keeps most ppl hanging onto religion. As we are all made of energy and so is everything else, then it could be possible that we all die to live again, ( energy changes form right! ) Think of it like this, if you was to all live forever you would go crazy, you would know each grain of sand on every beach, you would know too much and would become somewhat confined claustrophobia.

think of being a fish in a bowl, (luckily for them 5 second memory keeps the place looking fresh) Very Happy . I see death as a reset, and we experience the wonders again, and continue to make our paths in life. Nothing to fear about death, you didn’t fear b4 you was alive. Science is the way forward ppl, have faith in that."

-----

A response to it though, I think is dumb:

-----

"*slow clap*
This is an awesome view my friend. And I’m actually happy to think like that as well, but I don’t think that people shouldn’t be aloud to believe in religion and the after life. I do, however, think that, if you claim to love your god and claim it is all loving, know your religion before you try and twist it to tell people the are wrong and stuff just cause YOUR religion says so."

-----

So, I should be forced to believe that my life is a fruitless attempt to gain as many memories as possible only to forget all of them at death? Umm, yeah.

[Vitor]

Maybe they're "speaking to their condition" -- i.e., giving experiencers a reason that they won't bridle at.
[...]
Not necessarily -- they could just be being considerate and "politic."

I really don't think this is the right answer. See, many reincarnation cases goes against the belief of the experiencers (the subject of the case). Why with NDE cases this would be different?

[Zerdini]

Perhaps the afterlife is a place where out thoughts are things and we can conjure up any kind of afterlife we might choose, like the Nexxus in Star Trek Generations, where everything works and there is no separation and when we fall in love there is no divorce or friends moving away or loved ones dying?

If you really want to kmow what the Afterlife is like surely the answer is to ask someone who lives there.

That would be better than endless theory and speculation which achives nothing at all.

[Sandy]

If you really want to kmow what the Afterlife is like surely the answer is to ask someone who lives there.

But they don't all give the same answer. I guess it makes sense that they wouldn't, because if someone asked me about my life it wouldn't be the same as your life. if our lives are all unique, then shouldn't our afterlives be too?

Personally, it isn't something I worry about too much. I know that probably has something to do with being an NDEr. I'm not afraid of going back home.

[Paul]

Perhaps they don't all give the same answer because they see it differently. Maybe if I was asked to describe my life and surroundings to an extraterrestrial and you did too, they would conclude we were either lying or inconsistent because there would, I am sure, be many differences,

How about if someone like the president of the US described their life and a Buddhist monk did too. Or an innuit and a sheep farmer etc.

From the many such (purported) after death communications have read I have not seen the wide difference you suggest Sandy - could you give a couple of examples you have read so we can explore?

[Paul]

If we establish a communication is genuinely from "someone who lives there" as Zerdini puts it, surely this is the best source of information? I don't see why not getting the same answer, in principle, makes the information less valuable. Personally, and this is purely a personal choice, I would much rather base my conclusions about an afterlife on the opinions of those who live there than those who made a flying visit or flew over it :)

[Sandy]

From the many such (purported) after death communications have read I have not seen the wide difference you suggest Sandy - could you give a couple of examples you have read so we can explore?

Paul, I actually don't go out of my way to read about this topic. I've had experiences of ghosts and I've asked questions.

I know my experiences are questionable. I don't expect you to believe that anyone can communicate with dead people. Any verifiable information I come up with could just be obtained via psi. I ask questions anyway, even if I don't know what these experiences really are.

One young girl I met who had committed suicide couldn't see any other spirits. I could see spirits around her that wanted to help her, but she could only see the life she had left behind. When she was alive, she couldn't see that there were living people that wanted to help her. After her suicide, she still couldn't see that help was available.

I've also asked my grandmother what it is like where she is. She says it changes as she does, but that I shouldn't worry about it because it is all very nice.

[Paul]

Hi Sandy - I don't have an opinion on your experiences. Given my own reading, I am inclined to think such communication is possible, though so far at least, I haven't any real personal evidence that convinces me fully.

Your Grandmother's view seems very consistent what what I have read that is said to have come from others who have passed on.

[Sandy]

Paul, of course my Grandma said it was all very nice. Grandma wouldn't want to scare me by saying things sucked, now would she?

Not everyone has an easy time of it. That poor kid who committed suicide didn't. It was like she was stuck in her own personal form of hell. Thankfully, she seems to be doing better these days, but it was really bad for a while.

[Zerdini]

A study of spirit communications on suicide would only confirm what that young girl experienced but there is always opportunity for progress.

[Paul]

Sandy, I am sure your grandma wouldn't want to scare you. However, as I said, what she said to you is consistent with the description given by many others who claim to have survived physical death and report their experiences in and view of their 'new world'.

As far as suicide is concerned, the literature seems to be uniformly against it but the consequences seem to vary greatly depending, it would appear, at least in part on the motivation for the suicide, the person's state of mind and awareness the possibility of survival. In short it seems to be regarded as undesirable in principle but not always resulting in a particularly negative experience.

[Aftrbrnr]

Sandy, while there are differences because you are still only asking questions from entities that live in the spirit world and not directly observing it (well, I guess you did for a bit), do you find the accounts have a rough overall similarity or are they wildly inconsistent?

[Sandy]

Aftrbrnr, it seems to depend on who you communicate with. Not all ghosts are the same or seem to communicate the same way. The easy ghosts seem the most like us, and what they see seems to kind of fit who they are, I guess. The hard ghosts are so different that communicating with them is very challenging. You kind of have to meet them partway to get anything at all, and bringing it back here intact is something I can't do. I sort of understand when I'm with them, but it's lost when get back. What they experience is just... overwhelming.

[Ronnie Lee]

The latest episode of Skeptiko features Sam Parnia clarifying questions concerning his seemingly ambiguous stance on NDEs: http://www.skeptiko.com/sam-parnia-claims-near-death-experience-probably-an-illusion/

I also happened to post a link to this blog post on his Facebook and he's said that he'll be doing an interview with Carter sometime. I'm looking forward to it.

[Jane B]

I just don't understand how someone could look at all of the available data on NDEs and come to the conclusion that they're probably hallucinations. I mean, could you look at the data and say that they *might* still be hallucinations? Possibly. But "probably"? I can't see how you would get there unless you were already biased toward materialism.

[Michael Prescott]

Thanks for the link, Ronnie Lee. It was an interesting dialogue and, I hope, will help people to see that the AWARE study is not going to be the final word on NDEs, one way or the other.

[Aftrbrnr]

I think Parnia is a bit of a rock and a hard place. Of all the NDE researchers out there, I think he is actually the one that is the least biased hence the ambiguity at times. I think the reason why he comes off as a skeptic at times is he's struggling for a hard balance to appeal to all sides. Most of the AWARE team is made up of "proponents" so it is interesting to see some of Parnia's comments at times, but at the same time I think it works against him because having all those proponents can give the appearance of bias.

[Ronnie Lee]

I should have been more specific with my previous post. By "his" Facebook, I meant Alex Tsakiris'.

[Sandy]

I found the talk with Parnia a bit confusing. Maybe the guy was just trying to be as neutral as possible? He sounded pretty stressed out and cornered.

[Aftrbrnr]

I think that is very well the case, Sandy. I think Parnia will have to deal with a bunch of flak regardless of how the study turns out, it could either be the proponents or skeptics depending on how it goes. I think Michael made a very important point though, AWARE is probably not the final word on NDEs yet it is being treated as such. If I'm not mistaken, I think Parnia said a year or two ago that a bunch of positive hits at best is only a strong case for PSI.

I think Parnia is probably receiving criticism from both skeptics who think considering the possibility of disembodied consciousness seeing things is ludicrous and proponents who feel Parnia's experiment is set up in a way that is biased towards against a non-materialist explanation. How does that song go, "clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right"?

[Cyrus]

Yeah it seems Parnia is living straight in the dividing line, and feeling the heat of that place.

He said himself that he'll need hundreds of accounts to sway things one way or another. AWARE won't produce that.

He also thinks the preliminary results will indicate what direction things are going, whether for proponents or skeptics. With what will amount to a narrow study, this is a bit ludicrous.

Alex did corner him a bit, but Alex's interviews are known for that. I understand Parnia's ambiguity under pressure. But I just hope he does what's right and he doesn't cave to skeptics, by trying to officially say the 'book is closed' on NDEs. This would be intellectually dishonest.

With Chris Carter, Jeff Long, and Pim Van Lommel ruling the bookstore shelves, I'd say the real NDE debate is now starting to get fired up. A lot more people know about this stuff, and it's unlikely the new generation of proponents will take one doctor's case study as the final verdict.

[j9]

I hate to say it, but wouldn't Parnia already know if there were hits or not? I mean the experiments have been going on for some time. When he saysn in the Skeptico interview, "with my current knowledge...I would have to say that they (NDEs) are probably an illustion" Don't you think, if there were any positive hits from AWARE, he wouldn't be saying that. I feel like everytime Paria poohpoohs NDEs as real, we scramble to point out how stressful it must be for him to stay nuetral. From everything that I have read, quite frankly, I don't think he is nuetral. I think he knows that there have been no hits and he is giving himself the wiggle room to say "well, I never said I thought there would be." I don't question his good intentions, but I think that, at this point, if there were any hits, his tone would be much different. Believe me, I'm hoping for those hits, and I can't claim to be sure of what's in his head, but regardless of his stress level and desire to remain nuetral, I think we can read a lot into what he is saying, or rather, not saying. Hope this makes sense.

[j9]

Here is the actual quote. "if I was to base everything on the knowledge that I have currently of neuroscience, then the easiest explanation is that this is probably an illusion.”

[j9]

So, maybe I'm naive, but when he says "knowledge that I have currently", wouldn't that include what he knows of the results from AWARE. He is running, he must know what some of the results are. Sorry for the multiple posts, I just wanted to be clear.

[Vitor]

In the book, which is now becoming a movie, Our Home - In The Astral (Nosso Lar), the author(s) describe an instance in their borderland astral city where they must activate a self-defense system to attack some invading forces of darkness.

If such a depiction is true, it makes one wonder to what extent the next world's physics are different from ours. What is the range of entropy? Is destruction still possible?

The medium of the book was Chico Xavier, who was a fraud. The book is only the product of his crazy mind.

[Cyrus]

>The medium of the book was Chico Xavier, who was a fraud. The book is only the product of his crazy mind.
>

Well, I don't take any afterlife account from a medium-spirit book as more then a 'possible representation' of the afterlife. It's impossible to determine how legitimate those spirit-book authors were. One thing that's proven again, and again is that just because somebody is a medium, does not make him or her outside the realm of fraud and ignoble behavior.

And that's the real challenge with spiritualism. It's not skeptics or debunkers but the spiritualists themselves who do not place pursuit of truth above material fame and pursuit of riches.

[Kathleen]

I'd probably agree that most spiritualists are frauds. But then I'd say for the most part, so are most lawyers, bankers, politicians, etc., it's not unusual. So don't throw out the baby with the bath water--you only need one white crow.

[Art]

"Here is the actual quote. "if I was to base everything on the knowledge that I have currently of neuroscience, then the easiest explanation is that this is probably an illusion.” - j9
---------------------------------------

Each person has to read the evidence and make up their own mind. Either you believe it or you don't. I don't let anyone tell me what to believe or not. Personally I find the connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory to be very convincing and not easily explained away. No way could all these people saying things they experienced while out of their body and that sound "holographic" be making it all up. Not that many people even know or understand what the implications of living in a holographic universe mean.

[dmduncan]

"if I was to base everything on the knowledge that I have currently of neuroscience, then the easiest explanation is that this is probably an illusion.”

"easiest."

Interesting choice of words.

[Aftrbrnr]

I don't think Parnia's quote necessarily indicates that he's supporting the materialist interpretation but it maybe just a way of saying there is a lot we don't know at the moment. The fact is for the most part we don't know how the spiritual world works and all, and in the lack of evidence neuroscience makes the most sense. That doesn't mean though, we won't discover new things in the future though and I think Parnia also hints at that.