From the batch of files that Markus Hesse uploaded to the Web, here are two near-death experiences of interest. Unfortunately the files have now been removed from the upload site, so unless you downloaded them already, you won't be able to read them.
The first NDE is recounted in an article titled "A Near-Death Experience Followed by the Visitation of an 'Angel-Like' Being," by Richard J. Bonenfant. The title kind of gives away the plot.
In 1981 a woman had an NDE during an accident in which she nearly drowned. She "found herself slowly drifting upwards in a dark environment. Although still disoriented and confused, she no longer felt the fear, distress, and panic of drowning. She was now comfortable and fully alert in her new surroundings. The subject reported that she felt herself gently rising at an oblique angle, as if she were riding an invisible escalator. As she became accustomed to the darkness, she was able to perceive depth within that darkness."
After that, she vividly perceived a couple of scenes from her childhood, though unlike the standard life review, these scenes held no special significance for her.
The subject then became aware of a distant light located slightly above and ahead of her. The light appeared small and distant at first but grew in brightness and size as she progressed toward it. While moving towards the light, the subject felt that she was passing through a dark tunnel, slowly at first, but later with great acceleration. As she moved within the light she was filled with awe, peace, and love.
The subject discerned, framed within the light, the figure of “a beautiful woman” with hands outstretched to receive her. This woman was described as being clothed in a white dress, and having long, dark-blonde hair and blue eyes. The angelic being radiated a sense of “motherly love” to the subject. The subject remarked that her only desire was to reach the safety of those outstretched hands. But when she was nearly within reach, the figure withdrew her hands and told the subject, through her eyes, that is was not yet her time and that she would have to return.
Almost immediately, the subject found herself back in her physical body gasping for breath on the deck of the swimming pool.
Note the small detail of telepathic communication with the spirit, a common feature of NDEs.
Fifteen years later, there was an intriguing sequel to this event. By then the woman had an 11-year-old daughter, who had been severely bitten and disfigured in a dog attack. The girl was undergoing a series of skin grafts to repair the damage. Naturally this was a stressful time for both mother and daughter.
After one such operation, the subject was comforting her daughter while they both rested in the mother’s bed. The subject recalled that her daughter had been having nightmares and was thrashing about. To protect the newly grafted area, she cradled her daughter’s face in her arms as they lay together. It was late at night and the room was dark. Then, suddenly, a subdued light appeared behind the subject’s left shoulder. She immediately turned her head about to determine the source of the illumination. There was no evident explanation for the light, but when she returned her gaze toward her daughter, she saw the identical “beautiful woman” who had appeared to her during her NDE. The angel-like figure was only a couple of feet away. Her head was resting on her arms at the edge of the bed. Gazing at both mother and daughter, the angel communicated telepathically to the mother that she was not to worry because her daughter would be all right. The subject was awestruck by the encounter and briefly closed her eyes to refocus them upon the being, but when she reopened her eyes the figure was gone.
When questioned about the identity of this female entity, the subject was absolutely sure that it was the same angel-like being that she had observed during her earlier NDE. There was only one minor difference. In the visitation, the angel’s hair was “up” about her head rather than falling down below her shoulders. The second appearance was very brief, lasting only several seconds, and the subject observed only the head, shoulders and arms of the angelic figure. As a result of the visitation, the subject was not only comforted that her daughter would recover, but became convinced that “a personal relationship” existed between herself and the lady-in-white. To the subject, this being was her own special “guardian angel.”
Of course both appearances of the angel could be dismissed as hallucinations, but if we accept the woman's testimony at face value, it does give credence to the idea that we are blessed with guardian angels or spirit guides.
The second NDE is from an article titled "Near-death experience in a boy undergoing uneventful elective surgery under general anesthesia," by Ursula Lopez, Alain Forster, et al. Its interest lies in the fact that the subject experienced both an NDE under anesthesia and, on a separate occasion, so-called anesthesia awareness. The two experiences were quite different.
Within the context of a prospective study that was designed to evaluate the incidence of awareness with intraoperative recall in children undergoing general anesthesia, a 15-year-old French-speaking boy was interviewed after general anesthesia for elective orthopedic lower limb surgery. He reported on a state of awareness during that anesthetic. In fact, he remembered hearing music (which was confirmed by the surgeon) and the voice of the doctor, seeing three big lamps above him and having tactile sensations. He felt as if someone was moving him on the operating table and putting him on his left side (his position was changed after induction of anesthesia to a left lateral position). He also felt an injection in his hip (probably the puncture in the L4–L5 intervertebral space).
However, the patient also spontaneously described an experience that occurred 3 years earlier during a similar orthopedic operation. This earlier experience strongly suggested a NDE; however, the boy specified not having experienced awareness during this earlier operation.
What is meant by this last remark is that the boy regarded his NDE as a dream. This is unusual, since most NDErs are adamant that the experience was real, or even "realer than real." The NDE itself was fairly conventional in its other aspects.
The boy reported his experience this way:
I was sleeping and suddenly I felt awake and had the impression that I was leaving my body through my head.... I could see from above my whole body lying on the back on the operating table, and surrounded by many doctors.I felt as being above my physical body... and I was lying face down....I was like a spirit ... without my own arms and legs ...and I was floating under the ceiling of the room. Initially, while feeling detached from my real body, I felt a little bit scared and weird ... but then I had a sensation of lightness ... and I felt relaxed and comfortable.... I had the impression that everything was real.... I distinguished the operating room and the surgeons.... I then saw a dark tunnel in front of me ... and I felt attracted to it.... I passed through the tunnel very fast and at its end I saw ... a bright light ... that did not hurt my eyes.... As I was passing through the tunnel ..., I heard noises ... which sounded like when you are watching TV without a program ..., then these noises became voices.... Suddenly I felt again attracted to my body, in which I went again through my head. At this time point, the experience was over and I was asleep.
The article notes that upon waking up, the boy "felt disappointed as he did not have enough time to see what was going on at the end of the tunnel." He said he hadn't discussed the episode with anyone, "because he thought it was just a strange dream." While many NDErs find their experience life-changing, the boy, according to the researchers, "had never thought about it until this interview took place."
Perhaps the relatively young age of the experience accounts for his indifference to the event. In any case, what I find interesting is that we have the very rare example of someone who has unquestionably experienced anesthesia awareness, and who also appears to have had an NDE while under anesthesia. Note how different the two events were. In the episode of anesthesia awareness, he remained in the body, so to speak. He felt his body being moved and poked, saw lamps above him, heard music playing in the OR. In other words, he was solidly anchored to his physical body and obviously relying on physical sensations.
In the NDE, on the other hand, he had an out-of-body experience and found himself leaving his body through his head and looking down on his physical form. He was "like a spirit" and floated to the ceiling, feeling "relaxed and comfortable." He passed through a tunnel toward a bright light, and heard static that resolved into voices. But before he could reach the end of the tunnel, he was "again attracted" to his body, and went back in via the head. The experience was clearly not unpleasant, and the boy regretted not seeing what was at the end of the tunnel.
Now, perhaps it's possible for anesthesia awareness to take many different forms. Still, this case does suggest that what is ordinarily described as anesthesia awareness bears little if any resemblance to an NDE.
“But when she was nearly within reach, the figure withdrew her hands and told the subject, through her eyes, that is was not yet her time and that she would have to return.”
I guess she did not get a spiritual hug from the other side. Does anyone know if spiritual hugs are common in the NDE experience?
The “through her eyes” part is telepathic communication.
“I passed through the tunnel very fast and at its end I saw ... a bright light ... that did not hurt my eyes.”
This is common the bright light but it does not hurt their eyes.
Posted by: william | April 28, 2010 at 01:38 PM
The article notes that upon waking up, the boy "felt disappointed as he did not have enough time to see what was going on at the end of the tunnel."
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He didn't make it into the Light. I remember reading in one of Dr. Melvin Morse's books that it is "contact with the Light" that makes the changes in a person. There is something in that Light which forever changes people. If the experience doesn't last long enough to make it into the Light, it may not be as spiritually transformative as one that does make it into the Light. There is something about making contact with the Light. The Light is the key.
Posted by: Art | April 28, 2010 at 02:31 PM
“There is something about making contact with the Light. The Light is the key.”
I agree Art that bright light I suspect is the overwhelming love and compassion and acceptance that is so rare that we seldom if ever experience this level of love and compassion on this earth. I know most think compassion is common on earth but my experience during a visitation and a life review in a dream state or (OBE?) is that compassion is rare, very rare on this earth plane of existence. We appear to be in the sympathy and empathy range of experiences towards others.
Sympathy being “I feel for you” and empathy being “I know how you feel”. Compassion is beyond words and appears to be based in some purer form of awareness and understanding rather than feelings.
To experience that light must give one a feeling better yet an understanding not mere knowledge but a new found awareness that there is more to this life than materialism. I know of a person that experienced that bright light during an OBE and it gave her such knowledge that she wrote a book on her experience and it appears to me as very profound knowledge.
We appear to be intelligent Beings of light. Well ok not always so intelligent.
Posted by: william | April 28, 2010 at 03:58 PM
Hmmm, the original upload seems to have been deleted at the request of a third party, I wonder why. Fortunately I uploaded the same files to another host that same day, they can be downloaded here.
Posted by: Markus Hesse | April 28, 2010 at 04:21 PM
Probably a copyright violation. The journals in question typically charge for reprints of their articles.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | April 28, 2010 at 04:36 PM
I find that people want to take written accounts of NDEs so literally, and I'm not sure that is really possible. I took part in a study of NDErs and one of the questions they asked was "is it possible to describe your experience adequately in words". I know that my answer to that one was a really big "NO!!!!". After they ask you that, then they want an account of your NDE... in words... crappy, inadequate words.
I did the best I could. But it isn't very good. Words totally suck. I suspect other NDErs have run into the same problem.
Posted by: Sandy | April 28, 2010 at 05:34 PM
"I did the best I could. But it isn't very good. Words totally suck. I suspect other NDErs have run into the same problem." - Sandy
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According to Emanuel Swedenborg angels communicate with boluses of information, which sounds real holographic, meaning that instead of individual words they communicate whole thoughts, downloaded instantly into each other's minds so that there is no misunderstanding. The thought forms full formed in your mind and it's like you have full understanding. I understand exactly what they are talking about because this is what happened to me one time, only it wasn't during a near death experience. It happened instantaneously when I walked from our kitchen into living room.
http://www.soultravel.se/2004/040907-swedenborg/index.shtml
Posted by: Art | April 28, 2010 at 09:48 PM
"I agree Art that bright light I suspect is the overwhelming love and compassion and acceptance that is so rare that we seldom if ever experience this level of love and compassion on this earth." - william
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Every once in a while it does happen to people in this physical life separate and apart from the death experience. It's rare but it does happen. It's like when people fall into some kind of strange meditative state or something. I've had it happen to me. I seem to recall that it actually happened to me one time in Sunday school when I was quite young, but it only lasted a brief second, and the other time when all that other stuff was downloaded into my brain.
I love the experience described in Transcendental Experiences of Scientists on the TASTE site, and especially the story called Riding the Dragon about the Medical doctor that is at a conference and I'm guessing that he was so bored that he fell into a trance like state and had that full blown transcendental experience where he experienced the oneness of the Universe. It really is a wonderful read.
Riding the Dragon:
http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00070&ss=1
Posted by: Art | April 28, 2010 at 09:54 PM
I did save all those PDF files. Shall we make a webpage to list them all, with links to read them? I could make a new page at http://www.newdualism.org . Do you want to add any more of your own?
Posted by: Ian Thompson | April 28, 2010 at 10:10 PM
Ian, you may run into issues of copyright infringement if you do that. I suspect that's why the files were taken down in the first place.
At this point I've almost thrown in the towel on trying to protect copyrights (at least other people's copyrights) on the Web. It just seems to be impossible. But I still sympathize with authors and publishers who are getting the shaft.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | April 29, 2010 at 12:42 AM
When my beloved and I were first in contact, he used very few words (as we understand them) but hoped I'd pick up more of the language of Spirit. He was fighting a losing battle in one way, because I'm a writer and I need words! :) We've learned more of each other's languages since then. When I cross over, and sometimes when we're talking on this side of the veil, we'll use what is now his native tongue. It's like the downloads of information Art mentioned, in nature - but since my Louis isn't an angel, and I'm mortal, I don't get great chunks of info. It's more like a feeling or idea coming across in an instant, without the time or structure of words. Louis's also taken to channelling writing through me, which means he's done a crash course in English! And glad I am of it; he has a beautiful way of bending it to his meaning.
Posted by: Louise | April 29, 2010 at 03:16 AM
Have a look at Gerald Woerlee's latest pearls on Skeptiko.
According to Woerlee, a girl(shot in the neck, I think) who was 'sheet faced'(that particular hospital's term for dead as a doornail) and being shocked back to life(and who's heart was restarted on the third attempt) was.."NOT dead....if she was dead,she would not have been resuscitated"
So there you have it. Lets pack up the aware study and go home, Gerald has pointed out a fatal flaw. You can't be dead unless you stay dead. Urrrrrrrrr
Posted by: Trev. | April 29, 2010 at 04:32 AM
For Trev:
Once the silver cord (which connects the physical body to the etheric body) is severed all the shocks in the world cannot bring a person back to life in this world.
It's not when the heart stops or the brain function ceases that one 'dies' - it's only when the cord is severed.
The spirit body released from the physical body immediately functions in the next dimension and no power on earth can join the two bodies together again.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 29, 2010 at 06:25 AM
You might be right, Zerdini. There may be a chord. I have heard it mentioned from time to time(but not very many times)
To me it seems a bit superfluous but I'll certainly have a look if I ever find myself disembodied. It's number three on the list now after.....
1. Looking on top of the shelves in the aware study.
2.Frightening the hell out of Gerald Woerlee.
Posted by: Trev. | April 29, 2010 at 10:25 AM
"Words totally suck."
Iris Murdoch in her book "Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals" talks about how the Kabbalists viewed language. It was always mystical to them because 'it reflects the fundamental spiritual nature of the world'. Speech reaches God because it becomes God.
Post-structuralists like Jacques Derrida kind of followed this line when they said that all meaning and knowledge depend on conceptual relations - the idea that there is nothing but the great net of language, no meaning outside the relations between words, no "I" capable of being in truthful relationship with the world. Murdoch says that we do not speak or use language so much as are spoken or used by it.
Words don't have to suck, Sandy.
Posted by: Ben | April 29, 2010 at 11:12 AM
Trev: To me it seems a bit superfluous but I'll certainly have a look if I ever find myself disembodied.
If it wasn't there you wouldn't be living on earth Trev!
See Ecclesiastes 12:6-12:7
Posted by: Zerdini | April 29, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Speaking of disembodied, I lost my dad recently and experienced a pretty incredible tactile, full-color dream that I'd like to throw out to this group for intrepretation. I absolutely consider the dream a "visitation."
Dad, a lifelong classical music lover, was floating upside down in front of me, holding out a CD that was bright white and covered in gold fleur de lis. He was concealing one side of his face with his hand. Dad died pretty much a pauper but did leave us a beautiful collection of classical music, so one part of the dream's meaning seems clear- listen to the stuff! However, the upside down business, the fleur de lis, the hand covering the face are all open to interpretation.
I do believe this is an actual communication and would love any thoughts. A million thanks.
Posted by: Jean | April 29, 2010 at 12:51 PM
I don't necessarily trust the Old Testament, Zerdini.
As I say, you may be right.
Posted by: Trev. | April 29, 2010 at 12:55 PM
What made you cite the Old Testament Zerdini? :)
Posted by: Paul | April 29, 2010 at 01:18 PM
Trev and Paul:
Simply to illustrate that mention of the silver cord has been around for thousands of years viz. "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
This doesn't mean that every word in the OT is true rather that amongst all the verbiage there is the occasional nugget of truth.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 29, 2010 at 02:34 PM
From Kevin Williams' website:
The silver cord has been described as being smooth, very long, very bright, like an elastic cable made of light, about an inch wide, sparkling like a tinsel on a Christmas tree, and attached to one of several possible locations on the physical body. During the dying process, as the spirit body leaves the physical body and moves farther away it, the silver cord becomes thinner as it is stretched to its limit and becomes severed. When this occurs, the spirit body is released from being attached to the physical body. At this point, it becomes impossible for the spirit body to ever return to the physical body. For this reason, we can define "irreversible death" as that point when the silver cord becomes stretched to its limit and severed. This is the so-called "point of no return." This boundary point may also be accompanied by the appearance of a particular landmark representing a boundary such as a river, a wall, a fence, or a canyon. Once this barrier is crossed, the near-death experience becomes an irreversible death experience.
Many experiencers have felt the pull of the silver cord when it is stretched near its limit. They often describe the experience as being instantly retracted to their physical body - like stretching a rubber band to near its limit and then releasing one end of it.
This silver cord is our spirit body's "lifeline" to our physical body in the same way that our umbilical cord is our "lifeline" to our mother's body during the birth process.
During the death process, should the physical body be subjected to a violent death, such as in a severe car accident, the silver cord is severed before the impact preventing the pain that is experienced by the physical body from being felt by the spirit body.
Regarding Susan Blackmore:
Susan Blackmore, a former parapsychologist with heavy skeptical leanings, is considered one of the world's leading authorities on OBEs and NDEs. She herself had a NDE while attending Oxford University during the early 1970s. By her own admission she "spent much of the time stoned, experimenting with different drugs."
During her first year at Oxford she had a NDE after several hours on the Ouija board while stoned on marijuana. The experience also occurred during a period of her life when sleep deprivation was common for her. She describes herself as having been in "a fairly peculiar state of mind" when she had the NDE.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 29, 2010 at 02:47 PM
I take your point Z. :)
Posted by: Paul | April 29, 2010 at 02:57 PM
Blackmore spent most of her time stoned and experimenting on drugs at university? Presumably this is where she obtained her PhD?
Hm. Interesting.
Posted by: Paul | April 29, 2010 at 02:59 PM
Back to the dream, guys.
The fleur-de-lis is an ancient symbol, or so I gather. Extends much further back than the French and their usage of it to denote royal lineage. And a deceased father presenting himself as hanging upside down - perhaps indicating that everything he had known as reality is topsy-turvy, completely on its head?
Here is an apparent experience with one whose "silver cord" has been severed.
I'd say that trumps Kevin Williams. It certainly has it all over Susan Blackmore smoking weed while on the ouija board.
Posted by: Jean | April 29, 2010 at 03:31 PM
Speaking of NDEs, I read this interesting article today...http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=going-out-with-a-bang
Posted by: Mark | April 29, 2010 at 03:52 PM
That is an interesting study Mark. I wonder if their idea is that the entire NDE experience is occurring in this 30-180 second period of time.
Posted by: Sam | April 29, 2010 at 04:20 PM
I read that article Mark, it doesn't seem like anything too terribly new, I remember back around October someone reported the same thing (Discovery channel's website had an article on it), an NDE skeptic Kevin Nelson even commented on it.
Posted by: Aftrbrnr | April 29, 2010 at 04:22 PM
Jean, You probably can interpret your dream the best, since it was meant for you, but I guess I'll have a go at it for fun.
To me it seems to be about this incredible journey and transformation. Nothing is familiar anymore. Such freedom. Just letting go and trusting the universe to look after you, no matter what happens, enjoying the new perspective (even upside down) and opportunities as they arrive.
The fleur de lis seems to me about cherished old traditions and faith. Like the important stuff fits what he believed. He found the light as promised.
Posted by: Sandy | April 29, 2010 at 09:53 PM
Zerdini,
I know this is not your favourite territory, but Susan Blackmore didn't have a near death experience. She claims to have had an OBE while smoking weed(or it might have been resin)
This is the problem with M/s Blackmore. Whenever she's been interviewed as the source of all knowledge on such matters, she claimed/claims to have had all the features of the NDE, so that she can rubbish the testimonies of those people that have ACTUALLY had one.
It's very naughty..and you know what, people believe her. They ought not to. She is a princess of Academia and she's done a lot of damage to parapsychology.
Posted by: Trev. | April 30, 2010 at 02:24 AM
Did I say princess...more like a maid, now.
Posted by: Trev. | April 30, 2010 at 02:26 AM
Hey Michael,
Prahlad Jani is in the news again today, apparently successfully repeating tests undertaken a few years back where he eats and drinks nothing in a controlled environment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7645857/Man-claims-to-have-had-no-food-or-drink-for-70-years.html
How interesting it'll be if after the 15 days are up he shows no ill consequence.
Posted by: Darryn | April 30, 2010 at 03:55 AM
Trev:
Zerdini, I know this is not your favourite territory, but Susan Blackmore didn't have a near death experience. She claims to have had an OBE while smoking weed(or it might have been resin)
You are right - she did not have a NDE - she had a drug-induced OBE.
I appeared on TV with her many years ago (on opposite sides of course) and wasn't impressed with her theories. She used to be the sceptic who was wheeled out on any paranormal discussion programme.
Anyway, her detailed account of how it all began together with her comments and conclusions can be read here:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts09.html
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 04:16 AM
Thanks, Zerdini.
Posted by: Trev. | April 30, 2010 at 04:22 AM
I am not sure, even based on her own description, that she (Blackmore) even had what I would call a classic OBE.
Posted by: Erich | April 30, 2010 at 04:40 AM
Very true, Erich. To me it was a drug-induced OBE - more like a vivid hallucination than a classic OBE.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 05:24 AM
Blackmore assumed that because the rooftops of the buildings she saw in her OBE were not the same color as the rooftops of the building she was in were different that her OBE couldn't have been a true OBE.
People who have NDEs routinely say that they saw "more colors than normal" which seems to say to me that after we cross over that we will be able to see a much wider range of the color spectrum. Our body seems to limit us to a very narrow view of the light spectrum. It is possible that after we cross over we will be able to see the entire light spectrum much as bees and some other creatures can see in the infra-red.
Another thing that possibly happened was that Blackmore didn't stay in that time period but was transported into another time frame. There is an interesting story about two women who were visiting Versailles, France and were in a garden and were suddenly transported back 100 years into the past. They were seeing everything in that garden as if it were 100 years ago. I read this story in Talbot's Holographic Universe.
If in a hologram everything is "there", past, present, and future, then simply by refocusing the angle at which you are viewing the hologram will allow one to go deeper into the past or future. Blackmore may have been viewing those buildings as they appeared in the past, or how they will look in the future. In an OBE one is not limited to just this time period. The color of the roofs may change in the future or they may have looked different in the past.
Posted by: Art | April 30, 2010 at 05:42 AM
The inside of a flower looks very different to a bee than it does to a human. They see a part of the light spectrum we do not see.
Some humans can see glows or auras around other humans. It is possible that they are seeing light emitted by people - which means they are seeing a part of the light spectrum that the average person does not see.
Time and space, light, etc. are all very flexible and fluid and we can't assume that after our soul's leave the body that the Universe will look exactly like it looks to us now. Mark Horton said that he simply had to think of a time and place and he was there, experiencing everything about that time and place. Simply by focusing your attention to another time period you could be transported back to it. The most fleeting thought may transport one to another time period.
What Susan Blackmore experienced may have been very real and not "just a hallucination."
Posted by: Art | April 30, 2010 at 06:06 AM
Art - Are you confusing NDE's with OBE's?
Blackmore didn't have a NDE she had a drug-induced OBE.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 06:48 AM
Art wrote:
There is an interesting story about two women who were visiting Versailles, France and were in a garden and were suddenly transported back 100 years into the past. They were seeing everything in that garden as if it were 100 years ago. I read this story in Talbot's Holographic Universe.
“ An Adventure” was published in 1911 which featured the story of two English spinsters on holiday in France who took a stroll through the gardens of the Palace of Versailles, home of the French kings in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and walked, they believed, into the past.
Both were utterly respectable, successful in their careers, and not, apparently, given to fantasy. Charlotte 'Annie' Moberly was principal of an Oxford college, Eleanor Jourdain the headmistress of a girls' school near London.
On the afternoon in question, 10 August 1901, the women were trying to reach the Petit Trianon, one of the most attractive of all the buildings dotted throughout the great park of Versailles. The map in their guidebook, however, was not clear, and they picked their way tentatively along the winding pathways and through the trees. According to their account, strange things happened as they walked.
The people they came across seemed to be wearing eighteenth-century clothes. First, there was a woman shaking a white cloth out of the window of a building, then a couple of 'very dignified officials, dressed in long greyish-green coats with small three-cornered hats'. Next, Miss Jourdain noticed a woman and a girl standing in the doorway of a nearby cottage. They too were both dressed in the style of a bygone era: 'Both wore white kerchiefs tucked into the bodice, and the girl's dress, though she looked 13 or 14 only, was down to her ankles.' On her head she sported 'a close white cap'.
On they wandered to their most sinister encounter. On the steps of a kind of round summerhouse sat a man wearing 'a cloak and a large shady hat'. He 'slowly turned his face, which was marked by smallpox: his complexion was very dark. The expression was very evil and yet unseeing ...' Suddenly, they heard the sound of someone running, and a young man appeared as if from nowhere, shouting that they were going in the wrong direction. He wore a dark cloak 'wrapped across him like a scarf and quaint buckle shoes.
At last they reached the Petit Trianon, where Miss Moberly, but curiously not Miss Jourdain, noticed a woman apparently sketching. Again, she seemed to be dressed in eighteenth-century style. Finally the women met a young man who directed them to the entrance. They both recalled that he had come out of a nearby building, slamming the door behind him.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 06:51 AM
Sceptics have marshalled a formidable case against the claims of the two 'adventurers'. They have pointed out that the descriptions of the people encountered are so vague that it is, for example, impossible to decide whether they were wearing authentic eighteenth-century dress or clothes that were merely rustic or somewhat old-fashioned. Why, they ask, did the two women not discuss their experience immediately after the walk, over their tea at the Hotel des Reservoirs - instead of waiting a week to compare notes? Why do their accounts of the 'adventure', written at various times before the book was published, differ markedly? In particular, why do telling details, missing from the earliest versions, suddenly appear in later ones?
Perhaps most crucial of all is the women's reluctance to look for, and accept, a natural explanation for the events of that summer afternoon. They were, after all, in unfamiliar surroundings and had lost their way in a maze of pathways and thickets; the weather was sultry and there was an oppressive, brooding atmosphere - the kind that often precedes a thunderstorm. In such circumstances imagination can work overtime, and even the most respectable of academic ladies may be forgiven for indulging in romantic reverie, especially since, as one critic has put it, there are few places in the world in which it is easier to imagine ghosts than the vast palace of Versailles. The echoing halls of the great chateau, the labyrinthine walks of the main park with their stone benches and frozen statuary, the haunted gardens of the Petit Trianon - all are alike murmurous with the footfalls of history.
Dame Joan Evans, an Oxford art historian and friend and literary executor of the two authors of “An Adventure” was one of those who settled for a down-to-earth explanation. She discovered from a book published in the 1960s that a rakish aristocrat called Comte Robert de Montesquiou-Fezenzac had been obsessed with the fashions of the eighteenth century and often wore clothes of the period. Moreover, he frequented the gardens of Versailles and organized tableaux vivants or pageants in which he and his cronies wore eighteenth-century costume. Dame Joan concluded that Miss Moberly and Miss Jourdain had stumbled upon one of the count's rehearsals and that all the people they had met in the gardens had been acting.
Miss Moberly is known to have mistaken a real person for a ghost on at least one occasion. Two years after An Adventure was published she visited the Louvre in Paris, where she noticed an extraordinary man. He had 'a small golden coronal on his head, and wore a loose toga-like dress of some light colour'.
After much research, she decided that she had seen the ghost of the Roman Emperor Constantine, who had marched in procession down the road over which the Louvre was later built. But this exotic little scenario was demolished in the 1960s when a Sunday newspaper revealed that there had been an artist living in Paris at the time of the 'vision' who had gone about dressed as a Roman, complete with gold crown, in protest at the ugliness of current fashions.
In a letter to The Times it was suggested that Miss Moberly had also jumped to the wrong conclusion in her identification of the 'sketching lady'.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 06:54 AM
Waking up dead: Kansans share near-death experiences
Reported by: Dana Hertneky
Email: dhertneky@ksn.com
Last Update: 4/29 10:38 pm
WICHITA, Kansas - It was just about two years ago when Shirley Williams walked into Wesley Medical Center's emergency room.
"I could feel the life just going away, it just seemed like every step that I took was going to be the last," she recalls.
Within moments she was dead.
"Our outlook was so poor that we called family to let them know because it didn't look like she was going to come back," said Dr. Ravi Bajaj, Williams’s cardiologist.
Still, doctors continued trying to save her.
"I can hear voices and then all of a sudden I could see them working on someone but I didn't realize at that point it was me, because I was looking down at them,” said Williams. “They were working feverishly to get me to come to."
Then Shirley says she saw a glimmer of light and started moving toward it.
"Once I entered the light all I could feel was this peace that I never felt before," she said. "Peace and so much love there and I was just light as a feather. I wanted to stay there I did not want to come back.”
Her experiences were very similar, to those of Dan Borst who also had an out-of-body experience when he died on the emergency room table after a bad car accident.
"It was the most perfectly brilliant bright light but it had a golden aura to it,” said Borst. “It was blinding me, so I turned my head to the left. I saw they were working on my body."
Borst also believes he saw heaven.
"The grass was perfect there, the trees were perfect there. I felt peace like I never felt before in my life."
They're stories Dr. Bajaj has heard before. Like Shirley, some patients he's brought back from the dead have reported a bright light, a sense of peace, and visions of loved ones.
"The reason I don't think this is quote just a dream is the consistency of what they, patients, tell you, that it's almost always a similar story which you hear," said Dr. Bajaj.
That's what Dr. Jeffery Long, a Louisiana oncologist also contends in his book “Evidence of the Afterlife”.
Touted as the largest study ever of near-death experiences he says the 1,600 accounts he studied are so similar, and cross age and cultural boundaries to such a degree they prove evidence of the afterlife.
Psychologists, however, argue there's a more scientific explanation: the bright light and euphoric feelings are the effects of the brain shutting down.
"This can all be explained as part of brain death,” said Dr. John Valusek. “When brain death occurs and the heart's no longer beating and chemicals are no longer flowing to the brain there are still activities that a patient may be responding to.”
The dead loved ones could possibly be repressed memories.
But what about the out of body experiences? Dr. Valusek says even skeptical psychologists can't find a medical explanation. In fact, he says science is leaning the other way that these accounts of people leaving their bodies are true.
"There's now enough scientific information available to suggest that maybe these out-of-body experiences are going on and there's a more definitive kind of proof now," said Dr. Valusek.
For Shirley, she has all the proof she needs.
"I know what I saw was real,” she stresses.
And it's changed her forever.
“Because I’ve seen the bigger picture, I’ve seen what God has for us," she said.
Posted by: will | April 30, 2010 at 07:03 AM
MP what do you think of this study? It appears to show increased "spike" acitivity in the brain just preceeding death. Could it account for the lucidity that is posited as strong evidence in favour of survival?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=going-out-with-a-bang
Posted by: michael duggan | April 30, 2010 at 07:31 AM
Thanks, Sandy. I appreciate your comments. The experience was so profound that I felt the need to share with like-minded individuals -- the kind I don't necessarily run into on a daily basis at a law firm of all places. For me, it was adequate proof of my dad's continued existence.
Thanks again.
Posted by: jean | April 30, 2010 at 08:02 AM
Will, that's an interesting news report.
michael duggan,
Who knows what it is...but I certainly don't think it's ammunition for Woerlee. Maybe, God forbid, the souls of those patients were still in there and that was the shock reaction to being unplugged. But that would only be 'Doctor Trev's' patent suggestion and I am not a doctor.
Posted by: Trev. | April 30, 2010 at 08:08 AM
The Scientific American article is another example of the unethical reporting of science today. Just like the CO2 story a couple weeks ago, they through the story out there, knowing the public won't be able to discern what it really means.
I see a few problems in the study.
1. There are seven individuals in the study. Seven. How can you make grandiose conclusions on such a controversial topic with seven participants? You can't.
(What about NDE's of patients who don't have low oxygen to their brain?)
2. The participants were in a similar medical condition, that is sedated and critically ill. The doctor could have posite that the brain spike was caused by these specific conditions and in no way corresponds to the Near Death Experience.
3. Did any of the patients in his study have an actual NDE? If they did, he does not say in the story.
4. His theory does not account for extended time veridical aspects of the experiences, such as the ones I posted above, and countless others. (long conversations and procedures, for example). The events do not happen in a matter of seconds or a few minutes. They're duration is much longer, longer than these brain bleeps.
(I think it's funny that NDE skeptics deny the transcendence of th NDE, yet give a dying, broken brain such amazing powers of mempry creation and philosiphical capabilities.)
5. Why do these cascading nerves in memory only fire and create a brain show about passed loved ones nad angels and divine beings? I love my dog more than most people? Why do they not appear. I love to eat, as many people do. Shouldn't you expect a vision of some ethereal Golden Corral?
6. So, what is the significance, if any, of the brain bleep to the NDE? The doctors could have easily posited that the electric activity wa the result of a shock the brain recieved will the consciousness of the individual exitted the body.
Also, I think we should take into account other death-related spiritual experiences. Death bed visions are similar to NDE in content, yet they are not unconscious, an their brains are active and their minds coherent. Many are well and normal, except for talking to an angel or a passed relative, or seeing the light.
Now I am not an expert on NDE's, but these guys aren't either. One thing is for sure, their research does not explain the Near Death Experience. The research only provides us with a "what happens" in a dying brain, not a "why does it happen" or its significance. They can claim more than what they have, and the desperate-for-headlines hacks in the media can trump them up all they like.
It remains with us to interprate the information with critical thinking.
Posted by: will | April 30, 2010 at 08:20 AM
It appears to show increased "spike" acitivity in the brain just preceeding death. Could it account for the lucidity that is posited as strong evidence in favour of survival?
Andrew Jackson Davis, the Seer of Poughkeepsie (1826-1910) described the process of death as he clairvoyantly saw it:
The seer first describes how, upon death, 'the various internal organs of the body appear to resist the withdrawal of the animating soul. Next the head became enveloped in a mellow, luminous atmosphere. The cerebrum and the cerebellum expanded their interior portions and discontinued their appropriate galvanic functions. Then the brain became highly charged with vital electricity and vital magnetism, "that is to say, the brain as a whole suddenly declared itself to be tenfold more positive over the lesser portions of the body than it ever was during periods of health. This phenomenon invariably precedes physical dissolution."
The brain next began to attract the elements of electricity, magnetism, motion, life, and sensation into its various departments.’..... 'head became intensely brilliant to the same proportion that the extremities of the body grew darker. Gradually in the mellow, spiritual atmosphere which surrounded the head the distinct outlines of another head appeared.
The 'head became intensely brilliant to the same proportion that the extremities of the body grew darker. Gradually in the mellow, spiritual atmosphere which surrounded the head the distinct outlines of another head appeared..... "eliminated and organized from out of and above the material head."
As this new spiritual head appeared, the brilliant atmosphere that had surrounded the brain of the old body contributed its light to the new organ and gradually faded out of the corporeal brain. This process of progressive development continued until a complete body had been exuded, more radiant and more beautiful than the physical organism, but similar in general appearance. "The spirit rose at right angles from the head or brain of the deserted body."
But at the final dissolution of the relationship between the two constitutions, Andrew Jackson Davis saw "playing energetically between the feet of the elevated spiritual body - a bright stream or current of vital electricity." This current he termed an umbilical thread capable of being drawn out "into the finest possible medium of sympathetic connection (...)."
At death the physical umbilical thread is broken however, and a certain amount of the electrical element which moves through it flows back into the physical body, where, diffusing itself, it prevents immediate decomposition. In the case under analysis, the time required for the complete release was approximately two and one-half hours, but this is not advanced as a rule.'
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 08:21 AM
How long does it take for consciousnes to leave the body? Is it instantenous, could it last for secoonds or minutes, or longer? I'm skeptical of the whole solver cord idea, but one could conceive of a situation where death occurs, and the mind is in a process of leaving the body. It detaches itself from the apparatae needed in the brain to function in a physical envirnoment, movong on to where ever it goes. This is conjecture, and I am sure many readers of this fine blog have their own ideas. But residual brain activiety, such as this could explain the "pop" felt and or heard by some experiencers when their minds leave their bodies. (some remember a "pop" when the enter their bodies again.)
Posted by: will | April 30, 2010 at 08:40 AM
I think the standard pro-argument that the lucidity of NDE's can't be explained by a dying brain is weakened by this study.
Posted by: michael duggan | April 30, 2010 at 09:30 AM
I'm skeptical of the whole solver cord idea,
That is your opinion nevertheless it's been around for thousands of years and been seen by many people over the years.
If you research NDE's and OBE's you will find many people reporting the silver cord.
Posted by: Zerdini | April 30, 2010 at 09:39 AM
"I think the standard pro-argument that the lucidity of NDE's can't be explained by a dying brain is weakened by this study."
While I think that could be true I think it's worth pointing out that there are many people who have had NDEs while their EEG is flat and showing no activity, so I suppose it really depends on how one interprets the data.
I suppose one could also argue that this could represent some kind of "soul" leaving the body. Not a conclusion I would make, right enough but a different one nevertheless.
A lot is inferred from the scant data given by the study in the news piece. The article doesn't state that any of them had an OBE or an NDE. The AWARE study will prove more comprehensive.
Posted by: Mark | April 30, 2010 at 10:17 AM
I hope the aware study does, at least, cast more doubt on the dying brain theory. I wish there were more of an update on the project, but after scouring the internet many times, it doesn't seem anyone is talking or leaking any kind of information.
Posted by: J-9 | April 30, 2010 at 10:24 AM
Only slightly off-topic:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7645857/Man-claims-to-have-had-no-food-or-drink-for-70-years.html
Living death?!?
Posted by: Ben | April 30, 2010 at 11:08 AM
I have rushed my posts today, so all my thoughts haven't made it to the screen in perfect English.
Under the premis that consciousness leaves the body relatively slowly, that is, in a process, like sand moving through an hour glass from one place to another, then the silver cord could be used as a metaphor for the link between the physical and the spiritual. As the mind escapes the brain, its essence filters over a spectrum, until pop! The cord is broken and the mind is free.
I've been kicking around this metaphor. Tell me what y'all think:
Consciousness, generated by the brain, is like a bubble at the bottom of a bottle of Sprite. It starts its journey at the bottom of the bottle and makes its way higher and higher until it reaches the top and the one little bubble diffuses into the air on top. In other words, our consciousness starts in the brain, and as we progress through life, it makes it way further and further, becoming more aware.
Finally, at death, the bubble reaches the surface, a boundary that once crossed, the contents of the bubble, (air in the bottle, consciousness in the brain), begins to diffuse into the greater consciousness. It loses the confinement, the egg that it was formed in, and slowly begins to expand forever. Our consciousness, our soul, becomes one at once, and for eternity, with the One (who I call God).
This may sound like fantasy, by I don't think its so far fetched in light of recent research in the field. Thought?
Posted by: will | April 30, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Our so called physical universe is a holographic illusion. Atoms are mostly empty space, sub atomic particles aren't made of matter, wave/particle duality, matter is made of energy, quantum physics, holographic universe, "universe begins to look more like a great thought" - James Jeans, etc. etc etc.
Posted by: Art | April 30, 2010 at 11:34 AM
To michael:
How does the study weaken the pro-argument of lucidity and brain death?
Was there any mention of NDE's by the patients in the study?
The article makes the point that some patients near the point of death have a small amount of brain activity.
Then they start to tell a big fish story.
"IF these seizures were to occur in memory regions, they COULD explain the vivid recollections often reported by people who are resuscitated from near death, Chawla says."
Doing an hour's worth of study, the average reader would see that the above statement is innaccurate taking account all the research done before it.
There is no evidence that this research has anything to do with an NDE. If's and would's and could's make up their hypothesis. It provides fodder for the naturilst crowd, but offers nothing significant to the near-death experience research. It answers no questions.
The fact that the article begins with the statement that the research "offers clues to why such experiences occur" is simply misleading, and skewed by the author's presuppositions.
The only folks who would accept this statement haven't actually studied the ecidence for near death experience or related fields.
Posted by: will | April 30, 2010 at 11:59 AM
I agree with Will.
So..... there might be a bit of residual electrical activity in the brain(and it's only a 'might')... . So ? How does this explain away all the complex components including veridical OBE's, brilliant light, meeting deceased relatives etc.
You've got to expect science to try to find an explanation for the NDE. But, I'll tell you what, if that's it then I'm a dutchman.
Posted by: Von Trev....no ! | April 30, 2010 at 12:21 PM
No offence to Dutchmen, by the way. Some of them are wonderful.
Posted by: Pim Van Trev. :-) | April 30, 2010 at 12:25 PM
“How does this explain away all the complex components including veridical OBE's, brilliant light, meeting deceased relatives etc.”
Or finding out they were a twin but their twin crossed over at birth and they were not told they were a twin.
Or they visit the waiting room and find out what their relatives are saying about them like the brother in law that stated I suppose she is going to mess up my golf game again.
NDE’s are heavily influenced by the beliefs of the person having the NDE. From my point of view physical manifestations and direct voice give us more valid information than an NDE. But NDE’s support much of the evidence of mediumship.
And of course there is observation just look around do you really believe this is all due to chance and random mutations? The mystics see the oneness of all this phenomena that some mistakenly call illusions. Materialism is a powerful veil with its paradigm effect as it has fooled most of scientists in the world.
Posted by: william | April 30, 2010 at 03:26 PM
My argument is that the assumption that a dying brain provides no avenue for a period of lucidity (due to anoxia induced loss of brain functioning) maybe untrue. My point is that the lucidity argument might not be as strong a candidate as it was for supporting the survivalist viewpoint.
Having said that, the patients in this study were on life support and were monitored when life support was removed. In a typical NDE, the person suffers rapid loss of blood flow to the brain (for example after cardiac arrest) 10-20 seconds later their EEG's are flat. To the best of my knowledge, no one has observed these spikes in these patients. The study is intriguing and COULD provide ways to explain certain NDE features. In any case, it provides a caveat not to assume zero brain activity from loss of blood flow to the brain.
Regarding the AWARE study, the first findings are due to be released end of this year or 2011.
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=233
Posted by: michael duggan | April 30, 2010 at 05:29 PM
“From my point of view physical manifestations and direct voice give us more valid information than an NDE”
Here I meant proof that life beyond this life exists.
Now automatic writing has been the best spiritual teachings I have found to date came through to a medium by automatic writing.
Posted by: william | April 30, 2010 at 11:20 PM
I don't see any problem with people attempting to fit phenomena to their own beliefs. I have a problem with suggesting it is a fact though as there many be many explanations and not just the one advanced.
If a particular phenomenon, once established, doesn't fit with our model, our model must change to encompass is surely? The first, and not unreasonable step is to see if it fits though isn't it?
Posted by: Paul | May 01, 2010 at 01:31 AM
"It's number three on the list now after.....
1. Looking on top of the shelves in the aware study.
2.Frightening the hell out of Gerald Woerlee."
HaHa! Thanks for the laugh Trev. Number 2 on your list is amusing.
Posted by: GHY2 | May 01, 2010 at 01:38 AM
Does anyone have access to this paper on NDEs?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g141t0356tj08841/
Someone provided a link to it here:
http://forum.mind-energy.net/scientific-debates/1264-reasons-ndes-real-discussion-debate-4.html
According to this person it states that twice as many people during their NDEs see people who are still alive as compared to dead people. A finding very much at variance with previous studies which suggest that living people are only very rarely seen.
Assuming this accurately represents the outcome of the study it raises the question of whether encounters with living people during NDEs is being vastly under reported. And if so this might point to NDEs being purely pathological hallucinations.
Posted by: Ian Wardell | May 01, 2010 at 02:51 AM
I suspect a whole lot of NDEs that don't fit the expected mould are conveniently forgotten about, likely a victim of question begging, confirmation bias and the "no true scotsman" fallacy. It's probably a lot easier for some people to sweep these negative, nonsensical or contradictory experiences under the rug as "not true NDEs" than it is to properly address and incorporate them into their world view, entirely because they make awkward reading if your mind is already made up that NDEs are afterlife experiences. Certainly I know of a few people who have had NDEs that weren't particularly transcendent or enlightening at all... They had the kind of entirely random experiences that you'd expect as a brain spazzed out its (potentially) last moments. This is what makes me particularly suspicious of the popular NDE literature. Just how much data are they ignoring because its contradictory to their beliefs? Investigate ALL types of NDEs (and this goes for sceptics as well) or find yourself open to justified accusations of bias.
Posted by: Breanainn | May 01, 2010 at 07:07 AM
"it states that twice as many people during their NDEs see people who are still alive as compared to dead people."
From everything I've read, I find this very unlikely. One thing to be wary of is studies with very small sample sizes. Some NDE studies draw large conclusions from as few as three or four cases. Jeffrey Long's recent book "Evidence of the Afterlife," though it has its weaknesses, at least uses a large database of hundreds of cases. Long's conclusion was that living people are only rarely seen.
What bothers me a little is that people seem to restart the debate from zero whenever any potentially debunking evidence is suggested. How about all the cases of veridical perceptions in NDEs? Or apparent vision in people born blind? Or the similarities between NDEs and death experiences reported by allegedly discarnate souls communicating via mediums (in an era before NDEs were well known)? Or NDEs that occurred when brain activity was minimal or (as far as can be measured) nonexistent? It seems as if all this evidence just gets tossed aside the moment a skeptical objection is raised.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | May 01, 2010 at 08:20 AM
"And if so this might point to NDEs being purely pathological hallucinations."
--------------------------------------------
It's irrelevant. If you understood the New Physics it would all make perfect sense to you. We live in an interconnected universe and the whole idea of "there" and "here" is a big fat illusion. We live in a universe where each piece contains the whole, and where everything interpenetrates everything, where everything is infinitely interconnected to everything else. Or as little Daisy Dryden states in her death bed vision:
"but she said, "It is all a mistake; there is no river; there is no curtain; there is not even a line that separates this life from the other life." And she stretched out her little hands from the bed, and with a gesture said, "It is here and it is there; I know it is so, for I can see you all, and I see them there at the same time."
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org.uk/books/barrett/dbv/chapter3.htm
This was written in 1864 by the way. It is a perfect description of what one might expect in a holographic Universe. In a holographic universe whatever you focus your attention on is what you will experience. Thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality. Consciousness is the only thing that is real.
Posted by: Art | May 01, 2010 at 08:43 AM
MP. "It seems as if all this evidence just gets tossed aside the moment a skeptical objection is raised"
Absolutely right, Michael. I find it baffling at this stage. The NDE is over nearly every hurdle and heading for the finishing line...and we seem to be looking for reasons to disqualify it.
Osis and Haraldson answered this question with their large study of death bed visions(similar enough to NDE's). The vast majority of relatives sighted were deceased.
Also I would expect some visions of living persons to be 'mixed in' during the early part of the experience. This shows that the data is honestly gathered(the researchers haven't tried to make it fit)People in life and death situations are bound to get some things the wrong way round sometimes, of course they will.
IMHO, it's surprising how consistent the data is anyway.
That said, it's fine to have doubts and be skeptical, but lets not be discouraged by little anomolies like that.
Posted by: Trev. | May 01, 2010 at 09:41 AM
Two further points about the Reynolds case(apologies for it not being relevant).
I recently communicated via email to a well respected surgeon in America(who I can't name---how convenient !!!)..but who confirmed that the amount of barbiturates that Reynolds was given was enough to flatten her brain waves completely. So this would point to her overhearing the coversation about her arteries, when she had no spikes on the moniter.
What I have tried to do is contact Dr Spetzler to confirm this but unfortunately the first attempt has failed because when I requested his email from his secretary, she helpfully told me that he didn't have one. The second problem is of course, he may not want to talk to a lay person who doesn't know jack shit about brain surgery. So I'm going to attempt to get an answer by letter.
What I would like to know is, were her brainwaves flat when he started cutting into her head ?
I don't think this has been answered properly, but if anyone on here knows better, then I'd love to know.
Lastly, I hope I don't sound too pretentious, Dr Spetzler is under no obligation whatsoever to discuss the case with anyone, let alone me.
Posted by: Trev. | May 01, 2010 at 10:35 AM
I was raised and fully indoctrinated as a child, intellectually anyway, into the religion of Scientism, and still get caught in the headlights of it's onrushing irritable demands even today. For a minute or two. Poor frightened little Scientism can still cast a big shadow! It jumps with glee with every little argument it can muster.....I'm not dead yet!!!
And certainly in as much as it stands for critical thinking and genuine skepticism, right on, but then it wouldn't be Scientism but Science instead.
Anyway, when you look at all the evidence together in one frame, holy shit, what a ride we are indeed on! Yee haw! And not to forget crisis apparitions, some of the most convincing evidence of the bunch... talk about spooky action at a distance!
Fredrich Meyers really took the most convincing of these and laid them out nicely in "Human Personality and the Survival of Bodily Death"- a classic. At that time there was no electronic media, and the time lapse between an often distant death of a loved one and the news of that death was considerable- plenty of time for great evidence of communication with the deceased to be clearly amassed, in journals and verbally among family members.
We live at such a great time in history in many ways. It's good to be alive! And dead as well. Oh- and I'd strongly recommend reading a bunch of actual NDE stories, http://www.nderf.org/Exceptional%20Accounts.htm is good. Theorizing is one thing, but hearing these reports from the 'source' is at some point like an actual transmission of information from the Beyond.
Posted by: Tharpa | May 01, 2010 at 01:32 PM
I knew that last post of mine would excite the hell out of everybody.....snoring...ZZZZ...zzzz....ZZZZZ...zzzz
Posted by: Trev. | May 01, 2010 at 04:08 PM
>>Does anyone have access to this paper on NDEs?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g141t0356tj08841/<<
Ian, that paper is included in the collection I uploaded.
Posted by: Markus Hesse | May 01, 2010 at 04:29 PM
Materialism or Scientism or whatever you want to call it is thoroughly based on or immersed in Newton's mechanical Universe. The Universe as a great machine. The New Physics or quantum physics is based on the idea that everything we see around us is made from consciousness. Sub atomic particles are swirling eddys, matter is just frozen energy, and the only reason my hands don't float right down through the desk they are sitting on is because the negative charges of the electrons in my hand are repelling the negative charges of the electrons in atoms of the table. It's all one great big fat illusion created to teach our souls a few simple lessons.
Posted by: Art | May 01, 2010 at 04:50 PM
Because heaven seems to be a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality the Tibetan Book of the Dead tells the newly dead that they shouldn't be afraid of the demons they encounter because they are only manifestations of their own mind.
My point is that the mystical or transcendental experiences that people have while fully awake or conscious can be just as "real" or enlightening as the experiences that people have while they are dead.
Because the distance between "here" and "there" is just in our heads, it is irrelevant how dead someone was, or who or what they saw. If someone from Georgia that had no previous exposure to quantum physics - comes back after a near death experience and says things that are congruent with quantum physics - I find that highly evidential.
Posted by: Art | May 01, 2010 at 05:01 PM
"I was raised and fully indoctrinated as a child, intellectually anyway, into the religion of Scientism, and still get caught in the headlights of it's onrushing irritable demands even today. For a minute or two. Poor frightened little Scientism can still cast a big shadow! It jumps with glee with every little argument it can muster.....I'm not dead yet!!!"
Ha, good description, Tharpa. It's like the default state for the Western world these days, I think - although I may be greatly underestimating the religious feeling still evident in the US. (Australia is a much more apathetic-atheist sort of place.) The thing that creeps me out with scientism is the assumption that ONLY the "scientific method" is a legitimate approach to anything, and the a priori position that the physical universe as currently defined is all there is. The notion that the "supernatural" is real is dismissed out of hand, let alone the notion that it isn't supernatural at all, but a different part of a nature that encompasses a helluva lot more than the world we see with our physical eyes, microscopes and so on.
That standard position, even if one isn't aware of having it, or rather, of having being indoctrinated into it, is a huge stumbling block to contact with Spirit. It's like one has earplugs in without even knowing it. You have to realise it before you have a chance of taking them out ...
Posted by: Louise | May 01, 2010 at 10:43 PM
“Theorizing is one thing, but hearing these reports from the 'source' is at some point like an actual transmission of information from the Beyond.”
History has proven time and time again that it is possible to have actual transmission of information from the beyond. Much qualitative evidence and some would even state quantitative evidence has been collected that shows proof that many have communicated from the other side.
My observation has been that most atheists and those that have made science into scientism are speaking from opinion and not research. And if they do the research their cherished beliefs can prevent any incoming information from ever finding its way into their consciousness.
It usually takes a significant emotional event in their lives such as a NDE or OBE before it registers in their consciousness that their cherished belief in materialism is invalid. This can be very embarrassing and the human ego tries every hard to avoid embarrassment.
Posted by: william | May 01, 2010 at 11:49 PM
“It's all one great big fat illusion created to teach our souls a few simple lessons.”
Contrary to what many teach including eastern sages you or the world is not an illusion. Here are some synonyms for illusions: delusion, fantasy, false impression, figment of your imagination, and daydream. Art you are not a fantasy or a false impression; anything but a fantasy, and substance does indeed exist at least temporal substance.
The world is not an illusion as living souls are not illusions. We are expressions of the All whatever we want to call that All. As expressions we have serial experiences with choices therefore time is a necessity for these manifested individualized expressions we have named souls to express the dynamic potential of the All and All. What is temporal and transient are not illusions.
One only has to look through the Hubble telescope to see this dynamic aspect of the universal consciousness in constant creation. Judge not by appearances does not mean that these appearances are illusions or false impression, quite the contrary those appearances are temporal and transient manifestations of the infinite oneness of All.
Now the reason someone like Jesus and others would state judge not by appearances is that those appearances have an underlying reality and meaning. A phase of the journey of the soul is about learning to recognize the underlying reality of those appearances. That ability to recognize that underlying reality of appearances might be called divine intelligence.
The atheists tell us we are hear by chance occurrences and others tell us that appearances are mere illusions; both fail to see the divine intelligence as the underlying reality of those appearances. The illusion or false impression is the belief that we are separate from this infinite oneness as separation from infinite is impossible. How can anything or anyone be separate from infinite all and all?
Posted by: william | May 01, 2010 at 11:51 PM
"Contrary to what many teach including eastern sages you or the world is not an illusion. Here are some synonyms for illusions: delusion, fantasy, false impression, figment of your imagination, and daydream." - william
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Yeah well, we are going to have to just agree to disagree on that one. I think Michelle's NDE is pretty much spot on in that regard.
excerpt from Michelle M's NDE:
"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here."
http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm
Posted by: Art | May 02, 2010 at 01:03 AM
The thing that creeps me out with scientism is the assumption that ONLY the "scientific method" is a legitimate approach to anything, and the a priori position that the physical universe as currently defined as all there is.
For some unknown reason I was watching Larry King last-night. The director of the SETI institute defined life as a "cosmic infection".
These sort of attitudes prevail in scientism: life as a cosmic infection, universe exists by random chance, death as a permanent black void.
Sometimes I think what's really going on is peer-accepted cynicism. There's no "science" involved with it.
I'm not sure why so many academics and "intellectuals" are drawn to such attitudes, but it's proof that no amount of Ph.Ds can bring somebody actual wisdom and real intelligence.
Posted by: Cyrus | May 02, 2010 at 02:38 AM
Ah, thank you Markus! Now I know where that guy got the paper from! He only linked to the abstract. From a brief preliminary perusal it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as awkward for the survival hypothesis as he was suggesting.
Posted by: Ian Wardell | May 02, 2010 at 02:56 AM
"I knew that last post of mine would excite the hell out of everybody....."
I thought it was interesting, Trev. I'd like to know what Dr. Spetzler says, if he writes back. If it is true that Reynolds' brain waves were essentially flat even before the standstill part of the operation commenced, then it would explain Sabom's comment that she didn't have any brain activity during the veridical part of her NDE.
I don't know enough about the subject even to hazard a guess ...
Posted by: Michael Prescott | May 02, 2010 at 07:06 AM
Thanks, Michael,
My email to the surgeon was as follows.
Is it possible to produce a flat line(EEG)by using the very deepest method of anaesthesia as was used in the treatment of basilar aneurysm....without the blood being drained from the head ?
And his reply was,
Yes, absolutely. You can produce complete suppression of the electrical activity without interrupting cerebral blood flow.
So, lets see if I can catch Dr Spetzler at a good time. Personally, I'm not too optimistic about him being interested in replying. The subject has been done to death and he's probably bored with the whole thing. Nevertheless, I'll give it a go, but if there are any other better qualified readers on here who would like to ask him the question, please feel free.
Posted by: Trev. | May 02, 2010 at 07:47 AM
I think the whole notion of 'illusion' is a bit........illusory. Paradox seems called for, as obnoxious as that can be. "Things are not what they seem nor are they any other" comes to mind..... Illusion is a relative concept anyway. Like all concepts...
I like the notion of distinguishing, a la Buddhism, between relative and absolute truth. Two ways of 'looking' at the 'same' Cosmos. The nature of the relative, i.e., dualistic reality, is Space, awareness, the absolute. So, from this p.o.v., it's all illusion.
But from the relative p.o.v., it's totally real, and if you think you're Jesus Christ instead of Joe Sixpack, you're relatively crazy! But from the absolute p.o.v., you're Christ and Joe is the illusion!
IMHO, it depends on which perspective one is coming from whether life is illusion or not......... illusion is real illusion. Everything is perfect, but some things are more perfect than others!
Posted by: Tharpa | May 02, 2010 at 08:16 AM
If it is true that Reynolds' brain waves were essentially flat even before the standstill part of the operation commenced, then it would explain Sabom's comment that she didn't have any brain activity during the veridical part of her NDE.
It could also explain what initiated her NDE in the first place, which I would really like to see.
Posted by: Sam | May 02, 2010 at 09:55 AM
Me too,
Another point which I think is worth another look at is the apparent discrepancy in Reynolds' observations of the top(cutting edge)of the Midas Rex saw,
'The saw thing that I hated the sound of looked like an electric toothbrush and it had a dent in it, a groove at the top where the saw appeared to go into the handle, but it didn't.'
Now, it appears here that Reynolds has made a mistake in describing the saw and therefore according to the skeptics, the evidence is inadmissible. But think about this for a moment.
Why would she make a mistake describing something that she'd never seen ? According to the skeptics this toothbrush shape was a mental construct assembled that way because of the whirring noise. So if that's the case, she would have just said it looked like an electric toothbrush(full stop)and not worried/pondered on whether or not the end of her mental construct corresponded with the actual inplement.
If it was an electric toothbrush mind model , then she wouldn't have mentally kitted it out with a bit on the end that she wasn't sure about.
Posted by: Trev. | May 02, 2010 at 10:55 AM
"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself.”
When we look back on our life even lives it can appear to us as if a dream in itself. This does not mean that the experiences were an illusion. A temporal or transient experience can cause our memory to look upon that experience as if it was a dream itself.
The greater our awareness of underlying reality of our life’s experiences the less that experience will feel as if it was a dream in itself. Our experiences are not an illusion but they are temporal and transient.
This does not mean what we experience at this moment is a dream. It is an expression appearing to us as experiences and these experiences are not dreams. Our level of awareness as we are experiencing our lives is a determining factor about our perception of our past life experiences when we visit these higher dimensions.
Indeed when we look back on our lives now at this moment it will appear to us as if it was a dream in itself. The word if is important here. The Now in our lives is not an illusion but the memories will appear to us as if a dream. There is only the Now in expression and the underlying reality of that transient experience is divine and real.
One does not have to have an NDE to look back on life and to have our past experiences appear to us if as a dream. Judge not by appearances; they can be very misleading. We are unique expressions, not illusions, world of difference.
Our past experiences as memories must appear to us as if a dream; if they did not we could not function as a unique expression of Infinite. It is divine that our past experiences appear to us as if a dream.
Now if we define illusion as things are not as they appear to be then indeed our level of awareness of reality determine the level of illusion. The miscommunication I think is that we have a concept of illusion as a falsehood rather than illusion being a level of perception.
Our greatest illusion is the belief that we have a personal mind separate from infinite Oneness. Having a PhD can be a huge barrier to divine wisdom or a benefit depending on our level of humility.
Posted by: william | May 02, 2010 at 12:16 PM
“Everything is perfect, but some things are more perfect than others!”
As one of my favorite authors writes the world is perfectly imperfect. Were would a soul go to school if the world were perfect? If a soul were a perfect reflection of the Infinite there would be no dynamic expressions of the Infinite, just static, pure, and perfect, infinite awareness. Our perfections and imperfections define us as unique souls.
Posted by: william | May 02, 2010 at 12:17 PM
Louise, I'd like to hear more about your experiences communicating with your husband. Have you written about them elsewhere?
Posted by: Susan | May 02, 2010 at 02:12 PM
"According to this person it states that twice as many people during their NDEs see people who are still alive as compared to dead people."
This detail is part of Table II in the article ("Different Kinds of Near-Death Experience," by Hubert Knoblauch et al.). It shows that 32% of experiencers in the sample reported contact with living persons, while only 16% reported contact with the dead. Another 11% reported contact with nonhuman beings.
The results of this particular study are anomalous in other ways. 44% of experiencers reported "horrible feelings," vs. 50% who reported "wonderful feelings." Most other studies indicate that negative NDEs are rare.
In addition, the article notes (in Table III) that only 43% interpreted their experience as meaning there is life after death - a much lower percentage than seen in other studies. 28% said interpreted their experience as meaning "there is nothing after death."
Finally, the paper notes, "Surprisingly, fear of death decreased for only 40 percent,
remained stable for 40 percent, and even increased for 20 percent!"
These results are so atypical that I'm inclined to see this particular study as an outlier. It involved only 82 self-identified NDErs. That's a decent-sized sample, but it pales in comparison to the roughly 600 accounts used by Jeffrey Long in his recent book.
Or to put it another way, if this study is right, then almost all other NDE studies over the past 35 years have been wrong.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | May 02, 2010 at 04:31 PM
By the way, note that 32% of 82 respondents is 26 people, while 16% would be 13 people. Given the thousands of NDEs that have been reported, these are very small numbers.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | May 02, 2010 at 04:34 PM
Susan, yes, I write about them on another website. It isn't searchable - I've a private setting to block Google searches - but you can get to my profile here:
http://www.fanstory.com/mypage.jsp?userid=160842
From there, just click the 'portfolio' button. All Louis's and my stuff is in there.
Merci beaucoup for your interest! :)
Posted by: Louise | May 02, 2010 at 05:30 PM
Has anyone had experience with these tunnels and tiny lights that seem to "communicate" or open & close. When relaxed or starting to sleep I see one sometimes many tunnels that I'm sure connect with me while I sleep. I see them with my eyes closed btw. ANyone? i havent found anything similar in my searches yet.tania4jns@yahoo.com
Posted by: TK Fraiser | May 03, 2010 at 06:46 AM
I have now made a collection of online papers on NDE subjects, including the set that Michael pointed out recently. There also a set from a recent issue of Cortex.
See http://www.newdualism.org/nde.htm
The Knoblauch paper is there.
Enjoy!
PS: Send me (ian@newdualism.org) any more papers to add to the list, if you want to make them generally available.
Posted by: Ian Thompson | May 03, 2010 at 09:50 AM
"I love to eat, as many people do. Shouldn't you expect a vision of some ethereal Golden Corral?"
The Golden Arches instead of the Pearly Gates?
Posted by: Roger Knights | May 04, 2010 at 02:40 AM
"And his reply was,
Yes, absolutely. You can produce complete suppression of the electrical activity without interrupting cerebral blood flow."
Like Michael (and everybody else, I guess), I would really like to hear from Sabom and Spetzler on that. Two pieces of thought that I would like to add to this reflection are:
First, I think that what should be asked to the experts is: "Could it be that, for some moments during the operation, the effects of these drugs fail, allowing anesthesia awareness?"
Second, if this failing can and do occur (like similar failing do occur with other anesthetic drugs inducing unconsciousness), can it be that Sabom was unaware of this information, being him a doctor and being him an NDE researcher?
Julio
Very Best Wishes to all
_______________________
Posted by: Julio Siqueira | May 04, 2010 at 04:44 AM
Julio,
Spetzler has said more then once that anaesthesia awareness in this case was not possible.
Replying to Michael Shermer, who proposed anaesthesia awareness on 'Back from the dead' in 2001, Spetzler said,
"You might be able to make a case for that in the first two minutes during induction, but not after.....and in this particular case, she was in 'the deepest' anaesthetic state possible."
Anaesthesia awareness is also known to be very traumatic and I will post the findings of an American Cardiologist(not Sabom) later, when I can find the book (light and Death).
Posted by: Trev. | May 04, 2010 at 06:48 AM
Julio,
Dang it, I can't find the bleepin book. The dog might have chewed it up, who Knows ?
Anyway, even a very casual look around the net produces some interesting articles on anaesthesia awareness of which the classic symptoms are anxiety, fear, sleep disturbances,flashbacks, nightmares, post traumatic stress disorder etc.
In a recent 2009 retrospective study-Pollard et all intra-operative awareness, the incidence reported was as low as 1 in 14,OOO as against the 1 or 2 in a thousand which has been bandied about.
www.rcoa.ac.uk/docs/awareness.pdf
I don't recall Pam Reynolds reporting any of the above symptoms. And once again, the level of her anaesthesia was the deepest possible.
Posted by: Trev. | May 05, 2010 at 08:00 AM
Interesting feedback, Trev. Thank you!
Julio
Posted by: Julio Siqueira | May 05, 2010 at 08:59 AM
Good info but I think the 1 in 14,000 odds are for 2009. I think they were more like 1 in 1,000 back in the early 90s. They have machines for measuring awareness now that they did not have back then, I think, which probably makes the odds of having awareness even more unlikely now.
Posted by: Mark | May 05, 2010 at 09:59 AM
'They have machines for measuring awareness now that they didn't have back then'
Hi, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I think they had all the moniters that they have now. She was 'thorougly ' monitered by several technicians throughout the operation. There were at least twenty(from memory) personnel present in the room.
Additionaly the particular anaesthetic state that Reynold's was in, is far deeper than the anaesthesia in the majority of normal cases.
The brainwaves don't need to be flattened in routine surgery as far as I know.
Posted by: Trev. | May 05, 2010 at 11:04 AM
Mark - what are you basing you 1/1000 on?
Posted by: Paul | May 05, 2010 at 11:47 PM