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Michael, there are no limitations on environments. Every type of environment is catered for. Why would it be otherwise?

Not only have I have read of innumerable types of conditions existing in the Spirit World but in my own questioning of various spiritual teachers over the years I have found a consistency of teachings regarding life in the spiritual dimensions.

The closer-to-the-earth communicators are more likely to find very similar conditions to the earth so much so that very often people don't realise they have 'died'.

It is all a matter of degree.

There are deserts and oceans as there are arctic lands - they are all states of consciousness.

I have often been to the beach in my crossings-over. My beloved and I stay there, sometimes, in a small place where we're all alone (pet-free environment, lol).

Since I have every reason to believe firmly that animals cross into Spirit, there would surely have to be the range of environments they would live in.

I would suggest that it's not a matter of the desert or ocean (or mountains, or impenetrable jungle) not being there, as simply not being the places people choose to live. And there's a comfort in familiarity, so maybe it's not surprising that NDEs - just dipping your toe in, if you like - don't report the wild, remote places.

Meadows, woods and rivers form the backdrop of my beloved's home in Spirit, for certain. The environment is reminiscent of his home in France. It will certainly suit me when I get to stay permanently ... one thing I do not fancy is being stuck in anything like the Australian landscape over there!

http://www.adcrf.org/viji_adc.htm

An NDE report from an Arab that involves the a sea motif.

Though you have made an interesting observation, MP, I suspect that there may be some cultural effect occurring.

Black Elk apparently started his career as a medicine man by having what appears to have been an NDE when he was very ill with swollen ankles and other serious symptoms. His parents reported to him afterwards that he been unconscious for 12 days.

He saw and traveled to an isolated mountain where there were elders ("grandfathers") and horses and other very "Indian" motifs.

You can google the account pretty easily. It appears in the book "Black Elk Speaks"


http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow/prophecy/BlackElk.html

Bizarre by our cultural standards, but has some classic features; esp the return to his physical body where he sees his parents looking over a sick boy that he recognizes to be himself.

"Michael, there are no limitations on environments. Every type of environment is catered for."

Maybe, but I don't recall seeing the desert or seashore mentioned in any NDEs or channeled accounts. Actually I don't think I've read accounts of jungles or dense forests, either.

"An NDE report from an Arab that involves the a sea motif."

Thanks for the link. It seems to me, though, that this NDEr simply reported flying over the ocean, which is different from perceiving the beach as an environment where people are living.

Leslie Flint's direct voice mediumship has some spirits talking about living by the sea, one spirit communication tape I recall being of a Sea Captain who talked about taking little kids out daily for ship rides on the ocean, in his afterlife realm.

But, of course, I'm not entirely convinced of Leslie Flint's tapes. There's arguments for and against the authenticity.

My personal experiences have been beautiful lakes beyond anything imaginable in this world. Forests so beautiful that cannot be described with mere words. Colors that we don’t have a name for. Nothing was dead or dying neither the grass or trees just beautiful colors. The neat thing I would fly or float and in this life I have not been fond of heights.

As far as the desert I have spent 20 years riding the desert on a motorized trail bike and I think I would miss it on the other side. I don’t think the other dimensions are any more of an illusion then the material world. It is just less dense than this world and easier molded by our mental thoughts. The synonyms for illusion and likewise the term illusion do not accurately describe this world or these other dimensions.

I know it is popular to call these other worlds and even this world an illusion but what is popular is not always valid. Maybe the terms transient or temporal describe these phenomena we call astral and physical matter. Phenomena are not an illusion, as they exist as serial experiences therefore they exist in time.

Rather than the term illusion maybe a better term would be temporal or transient expressions.

“But, of course, I'm not entirely convinced of Leslie Flint's tapes. There's arguments for and against the authenticity.”

One of the most tested mediums ever and never found to be invalid in any way shape or form. I am interested in reading any arguments against the authenticity if you have those links or books. I know many that tested him left with a lack of understanding from where the voices came from but to my knowledge no one ever found him to be a fraud.

Eteponge: But, of course, I'm not entirely convinced of Leslie Flint's tapes. There's arguments for and against the authenticity.

Did you ever sit with Leslie Flint?

I did. I sat at least once a month, and sometimes more frequently, over a period of ten years.

I also tape recorded every session and there is no doubt as to their authenticity.

Let me clear up something, I'm *very* interested in the Leslie Flint tapes. There is stuff in there that clears up spirit communication paradoxes that have bothered me for quite awhile.

Such as when Leslie Flint's young guide Mickey explains WHY some people on the other side say there is no eating, smoking, drinking, sex, reincarnation, etc, on the other side, and that people over there need to kick those habits and addictions, and yet other spirit sources directly *contradict* that and say that they *do exist* and are permissible. A spirit communication paradox.

Leslie's guide however mentions in the tapes that the reason for this is because people are always communicating with spirits in different spheres, where the rules are different. Which clears up the apparent paradox.

In one sphere for example, Reincarnation may be an option for those spirits, whereas in another sphere, it is not.

In one sphere, eating, smoking, drinking, sex, etc, may not be possible, and spirits there will need to kick those habits and addictions, but in another sphere, they are permissible and exist. Etc. That clears up why spirit communication is so contradictory.

(I once had a medium tap into a great uncle of mine, and when I asked for an identifier from him, he said the uncle was making moonshine for himself and drinking it recreationally on the other side. In life, this uncle was a moonshine maker and a huge alcoholic. For example. It was veridical. This contradicts medium sources that claim no alcohol drinking on the other side.)

Also, the O'Reilly tape is the most convincing Leslie Flint recording of all to me. The guy honestly sounds like how a soldier from that era would sound, and he retains his emotions, unique personality, gets angry easy, cusses up a storm at various points, talks about how he has nothing in common with his family when they asked about them, and that in his afterlife he has "nothing to do with those sorry blokes". It just screams REAL to me.

Some of the other voices in the Flint tapes, like the Scottish woman who haunted a house, are very different from one another, showing they are from unique individuals, although many others sound very similar. (I've heard this is due to the materialized spirit voice box or something.)

The main skeptical objection I have heard regarding Leslie Flint's recordings, is that *many* of the voices on the tapes sound either the same or *very* similar to one another (with some very notable exceptions like I mentioned). And, I'm not sure if they ever authenticated the existence of any of the spirits who came through who were not famous ones.

That's really the only main skeptical objection I've read, the voices sounding too similar to one another, and some other claims of voices like Ghandi's not matching his real voice (which was recorded during his lifetime).

That's really about all I know regarding skeptical objections.

And I'm just being cautious overall due to the history of physical and direct voice mediumship being even more problematic with fraud than mental mediumship.

But I am very intrigued by Leslie Flint and the content of the messages.

Perhaps the afterlife oceans are reserved for cetacean souls?

For me, Leslie Flint's behaviour strongly suggest he was a fraud.

THE RESULT OF THE PRIZE OFFER TO PHYSICAL MEDIUMS

IN May 1947, a group of S.P.R. members interested in the investigation of physical phenomena decided to subscribe to an award of £250, to be given to the first medium able and willing to demonstrate supernormal physical effects. The offer closed on December 31st 1947.

The Council of the Society very kindly agreed to lend the services of their Research Officer as final arbiter of the genuineness of the phenomena, and to allow their seance room and infra-red telsecope to be used for the purposes of the investigation. The Council must not, however, be held responsible for any opinions expressed in the following account, which is in fact the report of an entirely independent and private investigation.

A notice of the prize offer appeared in the Journal for June-July 1947, and wide publicity was given to the matter in the psychic press.[1]

[1]Notices appeared in Light, Prediction, Psychic Truth, Psychic News and The Journal of Experimental Metaphysics.

Representatives of several spiritualist institutions who employ mediums (such as the London Spiritualist Alliance, the Marylebone Spiritualist Association and the Institute of Paranormal Psychology) were notified by letter.

Various prominent mediums were approached personally.

In spite of this widespread appeal, by the time the closing date arrived only three mediums had responded, and none had succeeded in producing any phenomena.

This result lends strong support to the arguments of those persons who contend that the claims of contemporary physical mediums and their supporters are founded upon fraud and malobservation. It cannot be argued that the test prevented the phenomena, since the mediums were allowed to sit uncontrolled and in their own conditions. It really seems as if the presence of the infra-red telescope, which obviates the cruder types of fraud, puts paid to the mediums' whole performance.

It is instructive to note the reasons given by some prominent mediums for declining to take up the offer.

Mrs Estelle Roberts (clairvoyante and direct voice medium) wrote : " I am not interested in your offer of a prize for any demonstration of what I believe to be a religious belief."

Mr Ronald Strong (direct voice and materialisation) and Mr Charles Basham (materialisation) both appeared to agree to investigation, but although frequently prompted, neither was ever able to fix a date.

Mr Ronald Cockersell (direct voice and materialisation) said he was not interested in convincing S.P.R. investigators. Genuine phenomena could not be guaranteed like " a hen laying an egg ".

Arnold Clare (direct voice) said he had periods when he could get no phenomena, and we had asked him at such a time.

Hunter Selkirk and Alec Harris (materialisation) did not reply to our letters.

Leslie Flint (direct voice) had to think it over, but never came to a decision.

Mrs Helen Duncan (materialisation) was very definite in her refusal, •saying that she would not sit at the S.P.R., " for a million ".

Arthur Phillips (materialisation) was considering the offer when he was exposed by other investigators, who captured a false beard. ( See Psychic News 2 August 1947.)

As mentioned in the interim announcement in the September Journal, Mr Frank Allen, an apport medium, was the first to take up the offer.

On 19 May 1947 the Research Officer was present at Mr Allen's house circle, at which, during periods of complete darkness, " apports " of flowers were obtained. The only noteworthy feature of the sitting was that towards the end, Mrs Davies, wife of the medium's manager, remarked that Mr X was the only sitter who had not received any flowers, and suggested to a neighbour that she let him have some of hers. This incident took place before the " guide " announced that there would be no more flowers.

On 28 May, Mr Allen came to the S.P.R. accompanied by three friends. Before entering the seance room they were asked to step out of their own clothes into garments prepared by the investigators. In these circum-stances no " apports " were produced, and an offer of further sittings was not taken up.

After a great deal of persuasion and negotiation on the part of an enthusiastic member of the Society, Mrs D. M. Seccombe, a direct voice medium, was prevailed upon to give us some sittings. To the first of these, on 25 August 1947, the medium came unaccompanied. She went into an alleged, trance and her " control " spoke, but there was no direct voice and no physical effects were produced. The only point of interest was that the medium was seen (through the telescope) to lean over and whisper behind thejiecks of adjacent sitters. The speeches made by the " controls " were childish and without any evidential value. Mrs Seccombe came on three other occasions, (28 August, 30 October and 1 November) each time accompanied by some of her own friends, but no physical phenomena occurred. The medium's friends said they could see various spirit lights and luminous shapes which were not seen by the rest of the sitters. The telescope was switched off at times to make sure that it was not the cause of the lack of phenomena.

The third medium, Mr William Roy, after a preliminary visit to inspect the infra-red telescope, came for a sitting on 13 October 1947.. He was to bring with him his own circle of sitters, but on the day of the sitting he informed us that they declined to accompany him. Mr Roy went into an alleged trance and the " control " spoke, but no physical phenomena occurred. Mr Roy declared himself satisfied with the conditions at the time, and agreed to come again a fortnight later. However, he later cancelled this appointment, on the plea of another engagement, and failed to give an alternative date. On 12 December he was reminded by letter that the offer closed on 31 December. He replied that neither time-limits nor Prize Money interested him, but gave one to understand that he might offer himself to the S.P.R. for investigation in 1948.

What a pity.

"For me, Leslie Flint's behaviour strongly suggest he was a fraud.

THE RESULT OF THE PRIZE OFFER TO PHYSICAL MEDIUMS...."

Eh??? Flint was officially tested by Brigadier Roy Firebrace, chief SPR research officer, at about this time. Famously the infra red equipment failed without Flint knowing about it and the volume of the voice phenomena then immediately doubled. I suspect this prize may have had Randiesque strings attached to it hence the shortage of takers.

Vitor: Why do I get this sense of Déjà vu?

We have been down this road before!

Accusing mediums of fraud because they wouldn't agree to an SPR challenge is patently ludicrous. Surely you can see that?

As for William Roy he was exposed as a blatant fraud by Maurice Barbanell then editor of a psychic newspaper. Roy subsequently sold his story to a Sunday newspaper.

I have published the full story on a Spiritualist website.

Also the SPR do not express a corporate opinion so any tests done under their control or their nominees would be a complete waste of time.

"I suspect this prize may have had Randiesque strings attached to it hence the shortage of takers."

Exactly! That seems obvious by the wording of the debunker's "offer."

is because people are always communicating with spirits in different spheres, where the rules are different. Which clears up the apparent paradox.

In one sphere for example, Reincarnation may be an option for those spirits, whereas in another sphere, it is not.

Wow spiritual MultiVerses.

This reminds me of my recent ''observation'' that I rarely dream of using a computer; i asked someone from an older generation (but still young): she could not remember any dreams with digital elements. Same with driving driving vehicles (though she had had a dream in which she was driving a bicycle: curious though, cause she - having a balance disorder - cannot drive bicycles)...

just asked my sister (a teen). She has had at least one, which, as she reports, had huge emotional impact on her. (As did some of my ''digital'' dreams - i believe that one of them was precognitive (it actually involved both a cell phone and the computer).

I'm not suggesting NDE's are hallucinatory - but i would suggest that our human mind seems to pick up on certain things in different ways (and i feel there might be a delay in picking up dream themes: the next generations, i suppose, will dream more of cars, trains, computers and cell phones)...

In Glimpses of the Next State Admiral W Usborne Moore tells of one of the many seances he attended in which he met a spirit named McBlin, an engineer who had drowned in Lake Erie. The Admiral asked him, "What are you doing now?" McBlin replied, "Oh, we have shops over there. I am doing much the same sort of work." Moore said, "But what will I do when my time comes to pass over? I am a sailor. You have got no sea." McBlin: "Have you ever been over here?" Moore: "No." McBlin: "Well how do you know? I tell you there is a replica of everything on earth."

Famously the infra red equipment failed without Flint knowing about it and the volume of the voice phenomena then immediately doubled.

What is the source for this?

"Famously the infra red equipment failed without Flint knowing about it and the volume of the voice phenomena then immediately doubled."

"What is the source for this?"

P236 Of Prof David Fontana's book "Is there an Afterlife" is the only solid source I could point to at this time though I have seen this at several other places, including the the relevant SPR Journal which I don't have access to at his time.

"In one sphere, eating, smoking, drinking, sex, etc, may not be possible, and spirits there will need to kick those habits and addictions, but in another sphere, they are permissible and exist. Etc. That clears up why spirit communication is so contradictory."

This tells some very valuable lessons about subjectivity and difference amongst us. a Tibetan Buddhist may prescribe to an environment devoid of stimuli, and then insist that it is the "one, and only" path in the afterlife, much to the confusion of people on Earth.

Whereas personally, I insist on an environment with the full apparatus of senses. I have enough self-control in this life not to be an addict to anything. I won't be an addict over there.

Re: Where are Oceans and Deserts?

There are still unanswered questions. For one thing, are there weather effects in an afterlife? Is there chaos like on Earth? (tides, waves, destruction). Oceans precede chaos. They are also habitats for certain creatures that must live in water to gain oxygen. Obviously, creatures do not breath in the afterlife plane. Or do they?

I think lines must blur, and there must be hybrid environments where there are still Earth-like conditions. There may be oceans full of sea-creatures, with physical bodies, as perhaps their energy is not powerful enough to exist with omnipotent energy-bodies.

We're actually looking at an ocean (pardon the confusing terminology) of multiverses. Countless worlds and environments, each with different effects on your 'etheric' body, with planes ranging from formless to harsh and severe.

In Life in the World Unseen (authenticity: unknown, but compelling) a desert is described during Borgia's trip en route to hell. In this desert the planes and flowers made way for rocks and stone and a sense of malaisement.

Here in 'this' life, I'm into rock-music. I went to film school, and am into film-making that portrays all parts of life. Sometimes you'll see me hanging out in a club full of people wearing black leather, spikes, white makeup and fake vampire teeth. The fact is if I'm in a world that is only sunshine and flowers, I am eventually going to say "Fuck this place" and go off seeking danger and excitement. I am 99% sure I wouldn't be alone with these feelings, which makes me 99% sure there is a diverse array of environments besides just sunny fields.

- RE: Leslie Flint authenticity

Leslie's tapes provide, to me, the absolute clearest definitions of an afterlife ever to be placed on audiotape or paper. I think it's plain stupid to ignore everything authentic about him based on his inability to do a stage performance for the SPR back in 1947. We don't know the politics back then, or what Randi-sorts were pushing their agendas around in that organization.

And if Leslie were a fraud, whatever, move on. You can't put all afterlife evidence on one source anyway. Go watch a few episodes of "Psychic Detectives" and you'll see mediums with powers just as astonishing.


"You have got no sea." McBlin: "Have you ever been over here?" Moore: "No." McBlin: "Well how do you know? I tell you there is a replica of everything on earth." - W Vogt
--------------------------------------------

Finally, something that makes sense to me. This side, the physical universe, is a holographic projection from the Spiritual Universe - the holographic film from which our universe derives its reality. Everything that exists here exists there. How do I know this is true? Because about 1/3 of people who have had a Near Death Experience describe their experiences in terms that can only be called "holographic."

excerpt from an Interview with Dr. Brian Greene, PhD physicist at Columbia University and author of The Elegant Universe and Fabric of the Cosmos:

"In the final chapter of your book, you suggest that the world may be a hologram. That sounds very Matrix-like."

"It's a very speculative idea that seems to, strangely enough, naturally emerge from string theory. Basically, the fundamental laws of the universe don't really operate in the environment around us. They may operate on sort of a distant bounding surface and give rise to the familiar world that we experience in much the same way that a thin piece of plastic, when illuminated correctly—if it's a hologram—can yield a three-dimensional image.

It might be that the deep laws are more like the thin piece of plastic existing on a thin bounding surface. Everything we know might be akin to a holographic projection of those distant laws."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0326_040326_briangreene.html
------------------------------------------
Excerpt from The Universe as a Hologram:

"A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser. To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears." http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

Mickey,

don't you think too suspicious that Leslie Flint get better results only when the infra red equipament failed? What makes impossible that Leslie Flint had himself damage the equipament?

>>Mickey,

don't you think too suspicious that Leslie Flint get better results only when the infra red equipament failed?>>

No. The volume increase was instantaneous and I think the SPR's most senior investigator might just have taken such possibilities (as well as equipment destruction) into consideration.

Maybe the people who crossed over while in a "beach, ocean or desert" scenario where affected so profoundly that they are the ones who stay and NOT come back (as in NDE). As for communications from those people, well...maybe they are too much at peace to chat.

Sometimes I do little meditative exercises and pose questions while I am in a relaxed, dreamy state of mind. Since the "ocean" issue appears to be more complicated than I thought, I decided to try asking about it in today's meditation. Before I report the answer, I want to make clear that I don't know if I am getting any actual information from "the other side" in these exercises, or if it is only my subconscious and my imagination at work. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, here is the gist of what I was "told":

While many people love the ocean, for others it is a source of painful memories. People have drowned in the ocean. Ocean storms have wrecked homes and wiped out communities. Some people are afraid of the water.

The afterlife life environment generally consists of consensual thought-forms. Enough people have negative feelings about the ocean to make it ineligible for the consensus.

The same holds true for other environments like the desert, the jungle, and arctic wastes. Though some people like these environments, enough people dislike them to keep them out of the consensus.

The environments that do manifest are consensus environments that hardly anybody could object to. A garden, for instance, or a beautiful countryside. These consensus landscapes don't get vetoed by the objections of a vocal minority.

However, for those who want to experience the sea or the desert, etc., it is always possible to go outside the consensus and create a private environment for oneself and perhaps for a few like-minded souls.

In most cases, souls are attracted to each other by their degree of spiritual advancement and not by something as superficial as a preference for a certain type of landscape, so such private environments are relatively rare.

It is not unheard of for a very solitary soul to have an entire world - in effect, a private universe - all to himself. This world can be shaped according to his personal desires, with no compromises imposed by the consensus. The downside is that it's a solipsistic existence - no sharing.

Although I wasn't "told" this directly, it also occurs to me that the absence of nighttime from most descriptions of the "heaven" or "paradise" environment could also be explained in terms of consensus. If enough people dislike the dark, then darkness will not be part of the consensus reality.

As I said above, I'm not making any claims for the validity of this explanation or its provenance. It may be entirely a product of my subconscious. Then again, possibly there is some truth in it. Who knows?

On Leslie Flint and Firebrace; when the IR failed I recall from the report that the difference was only in volume (i.e. it increased) and not in the nature of the phenomena produced.

The SPR rep was, I think, Drayton-Thomas not Firebrace although Firebrace was present. I can't see any of the references mentioned by David Fontana that might refer specifically to the instance mentioned as unfortunately Prof Fontana doesn't cross-reference the bibliography (this is a shame). If you are interested perhaps he would reply to an email request.

Flint was investigated many time and on at least one occasion it appears he was treated very unprofessionally. If he chose not to 'perform' in a specific instance that is his business and perhaps this instance should be weighed against the numerous occasions when Flint was tested.

It would have been a lot more helpful Vitor if you had researched Flint a bit more thoroughly before posting your comment. Particularly as at least one poster here new the guy personally over many years.

You know, something that bugs me about the idea of total-consensus is that it leaves less room for growth. We have to confront things we don't like sometimes. I used to be mortally afraid of waves, then I recently took up surfing. If everyone lives inside their comfort zone, you don't really develop as a person.

But it does seem that way in the afterlife, doesn't it? Maybe we should consider this before we pass on. We might be on Earth just to experience challenges, so we should continue to challenge ourselves in other planes as well.

It would have been a lot more helpful Vitor if you had researched Flint a bit more thoroughly before posting your comment.

I did this research. Scientific reports about Flint are very rare.

Particularly as at least one poster here new the guy personally over many years.

I knew that. I had a friend which I knew many years too. Recently he killed a person, and it don't seems to have been self defense. The true is that we never know what a person can do, even who we think we know very well.

It strikes me that 'fish do not see the sea' much as humans do not 'see' atmosphere, however, we are aware of the superposition of atmosphere, weather. Both the sea and the desert are more contexts than places, and, in general, contexts often remain obscured on both sides of a veil... except, perhaps, to those who actively seek contact with contexts...

An interesting note - the Biblical book of Revelations describes the afterlife, at least from the Christian POV, which doesn't include large bodies of water: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more". I'm unfamiliar with any other culture where the other side specifically has no oceans.

“Whereas personally, I insist on an environment with the full apparatus of senses. I have enough self-control in this life not to be an addict to anything. I won't be an addict over there.”

There are some that would state that seeking danger and excitement is indeed an addiction. What is the underlying reality for a need for danger and excitement? Maybe that seeking danger and excitement is not needed once one survives what we know as death. Maybe not.

Maybe cheating death to some by seeking danger and excitement is their way with dealing with our most repressed fears. Maybe not.

I think maybe reincarnation might be a possible choice for someone that wants to experience his or her senses to the fullest in a physical world.

MY understanding of the Book of Revelation talking about the removal of the sea in the 'New Heaven and Earth' is that the Jewish people of that time regarded the ocean as a place of unrest, disorder, where monsters and other evil creatures dwelt.For the sea to disappear thus was equivalent to the absence of evil.

Hi Vitor

I don't understand the points you make above.

a) What research? What do you mean by 'scientific' research - if I want to find out about a person I don't (just) consult scientific journals. Your comments looked like you don't know much at all about Flint.

b) Your comment regarding a murderer is a non sequitur; In the case of Flint it would be sensible to ask those who know him what they saw and heard and figure out how this could have been faked if that is the nature of your interest. If I watched a friend murder someone I would not be able to entertain the same doubts as if I simply listened to hearsay.

Your comment that implies fraud because he did not subject himself to one particular test when he had to many others seems to me to be unreasonable.

Vitor: I knew that. I had a friend which I knew many years too. Recently he killed a person, and it don't seems to have been self defense. The true is that we never know what a person can do, even who we think we know very well.

What on earth has that got to do with Leslie Flint?

It seems to me, Vitor, that you have never had any direct experience with the mediums you freely label as frauds.

Your so-called research consists of quoting others.

Hi, Paul

a) What research? What do you mean by 'scientific' research - if I want to find out about a person I don't (just) consult scientific journals. Your comments looked like you don't know much at all about Flint.

I mean that I searched scientific journals with reports about the experiments with him, and I found almost nothing. I don't want to know about Flint, I want to know about the tests with him.

b) Your comment regarding a murderer is a non sequitur; In the case of Flint it would be sensible to ask those who know him what they saw and heard and figure out how this could have been faked if that is the nature of your interest.

I don't want anedoctal accounts. I want scientific studies published in scientific journals.

Your comment that implies fraud because he did not subject himself to one particular test when he had to many others seems to me to be unreasonable.

The problem is that this test would put an end in the controversy. The other tests almost always have methodological problems.

What on earth has that got to do with Leslie Flint?

This: it's not because a person says "I knew Flint, and I doubt that he fooled me all over these years" that I will trust in this person.

It seems to me, Vitor, that you have never had any direct experience with the mediums you freely label as frauds.

So what? He "chicken out" the test. That's very suspicious. Leonora Piper or Gladys Osborne Leonard NEVER "chicken out" any tests.

Your so-called research consists of quoting others.

So you see that I'm not the only one who doubts Flint's authenticity...

Vitor: This: it's not because a person says "I knew Flint, and I doubt that he fooled me all over these years" that I will trust in this person.

I never said that - please don't put words in my mouth - that's not very scientific.

I based my judgement on the evidence of survival given to me, and others in our group, through his mediumship.

It seems to me, Vitor, that you have never had any direct experience with the mediums you freely label as frauds.

So what? He "chicken out" the test. That's very suspicious. Leonora Piper or Gladys Osborne Leonard NEVER "chicken out" any tests.

What utter rubbish! It's not suspicious at all. He became fed up with those so-called 'tests' when his object was giving survival evidence to bereaved people - a far more noble endeavour.

Are you also claiming then that Mrs Piper and Mrs Leonard were above suspicion because they did 'tests' for a few researchers?

Your so-called research consists of quoting others.

So you see that I'm not the only one who doubts Flint's authenticity...

....who's the other one?

The ones who doubt are usually those who never sat with Leslie Flint and rely on the reports of others.

Have you ever had any personal experience with all the mediums you slate and label as frauds? You have continually dodged this question.

First time I've been to your blog. It's a facinating topic and I appreciate the comments/conjecture. Your post yesterday @ 4:38 is on the money for me. You get the heaven you envision. Thanks for the blog and its commenters.

I never said that - please don't put words in my mouth - that's not very scientific.

I didn't said you said that either. Someone said "Particularly as at least one poster here new the guy personally over many years." and so I explained why I was not impressed by this.

I based my judgement on the evidence of survival given to me, and others in our group, through his mediumship.

I am doing the same: I am basing my judgement on the evidence that others had em Flint "chicken out".

What utter rubbish! It's not suspicious at all. He became fed up with those so-called 'tests' when his object was giving survival evidence to bereaved people - a far more noble endeavour.

That's your version of the history...

Are you also claiming then that Mrs Piper and Mrs Leonard were above suspicion because they did 'tests' for a few researchers?

Few? (And yes, for me both are above suspicion)

....who's the other one?

D. J. West.

The ones who doubt are usually those who never sat with Leslie Flint and rely on the reports of others.

Or the persons which Flint refuses to do a session.

Have you ever had any personal experience with all the mediums you slate and label as frauds? You have continually dodged this question.

I had only one session with a pseudo medium who had a german doctor like control, but he spoke in Portuguese with an german accent. that's all.

You won't find much evidence of the investigation of mediumship in scientific journals Vitor (as you probably know). If that's where you are looking I think you are wasting your time. If that is what you need to convince you of the veracity of mediumship or survival I don't think you are going to get anywhere (unless of course you are in a position to carry our such research yourself).

I do agree that the reports of others need to be properly understood but anecdotal evidence is not the same as a report by an eye witness of an event under controlled conditions (which Flint submitted to a number of times).

Your suggestion that Flint is fraudulent because he wouldn't submit to one examination (in fact he didn't refuse he simply didn't bother to respond as you rightly pointed out) is risible. I do not see the logic in your remark.

You have said yourself that you have had virtually no direct personal experience of mediumship other than one failed attempt. I think personal experience is vital even in the face of compelling evidence that such phenomena exist. I don't think you are going to get a reliable answer from your armchair.

Correction: I meant to say "recent scientific journals". There is quite a bit from Lodge and Crookes.

You won't find much evidence of the investigation of mediumship in scientific journals Vitor (as you probably know).

Wrong, Paul. I found much evidence with Piper and Osborne. This is not the case with Flint.

Your suggestion that Flint is fraudulent because he wouldn't submit to one examination (in fact he didn't refuse he simply didn't bother to respond as you rightly pointed out) is risible. I do not see the logic in your remark.

He "chicken out" in a decisive proof. This tells a lot.

You have said yourself that you have had virtually no direct personal experience of mediumship other than one failed attempt. I think personal experience is vital even in the face of compelling evidence that such phenomena exist. I don't think you are going to get a reliable answer from your armchair.

Wrong again, Paul. You don't know how much evidence I got against one famous medium here in Brazil called Chico Xavier (he is already dead) and many others. And I did this in my armchair.

Vitor - I did say recent. I don't think the work on Osborne or Piper was recent really was it?

Your statement about Flint 'chickening out' is not reasonable however it does show the level at which you want to engage. You do not mention any of the other research carried out on Flint.

I am happy for you to have the last word on this as I think further debate with you on the matter is pointless.

Yes Armchair research which anyone can do and which there is endless debate about. It is interesting and useful but not really decisive is it? So you have solved the question of survival without leaving your armchair (other than a single visit to a medium which was fruitless)? I don't think so lol.

Anyway, I am sure anyone seriously interested in researching Leslie Flint will approach it in a balanced way looking at all the available evidence (of which there is quite a lot as he died only as recently as 1994).

I am happy for you to have the last word Vitor as serious conversation with you on this subject is clearly pointless.

Vitor: Are you also claiming then that Mrs Piper and Mrs Leonard were above suspicion because they did 'tests' for a few researchers?

Few? (And yes, for me both are above suspicion )

Vitor, take a look at this:

As with other mediums of the era, Piper claimed the use of spirit guides or "controls". Among hers was a personality referred to as "G.P." and another called 'Phinuit'. The latter was purportedly a French doctor. Phinuit's French was limited to salutations like "bonjour" and "au revoir" and had little apparent knowledge both of the French language and medicine.

According to some accounts, medical people were surprised Phinuit did not know the French or Latin names for the many remedies Piper advised for her sitters, and Phinuit's historical existence could not be verified by SPR investigations.

Among other spirit guides she claimed were assuming control of her were a young Indian girl named Chlorine, a man named Hodgson, Martin Luther, Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt, Henry Longfellow, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington.

Martin Gardner writes in his essay “How Mrs. Piper Bamboozled William James” that transcribed records of Piper's séances clearly illustrate that she used the technique of cold reading and "fishing", as vague statements were followed by more precise information based on how sitters reacted.

Gardner reports that when caught in an error, Piper's "control" would invariably profess deafness and "leave" her, and that Piper was unable to discern between real and fictitious information fed to her.

Viror, do you still think Mrs Piper was 'above suspicion'?

I am doing the same: I am basing my judgement on the evidence that others had em Flint "chicken out".

No you are not: - you never sat with Flint nor did you receive any survival evidence from him as I and others did regularly and consistently.

That's your version of the history...

...Correct. You do not have a history of sitting with Flint!

I had only one session with a pseudo medium who had a german doctor like control, but he spoke in Portuguese with an german accent. that's all.

...and because of that you slate all mediums as frauds? Give me strength!

It's time to call a halt to this fruitless debate.

"Vitor, do you still think Mrs Piper was 'above suspicion'?"

I don't know about Vitor, but personally I do think Mrs. Piper was above suspicion. She was never credibly accused of fraud despite being tested on a daily basis for twenty years.

Her spirit controls may or may not have been who they said they were. Phinuit is questionable, but George Pellam seems to have been the real thing. As for Rector, Imperator, et al., who can say?

"Phinuit's French was limited to salutations like 'bonjour' and 'au revoir'"

I don't think this is quite correct. On some occasions Phinuit was able to conduct conversations in French, at a fairly simple level. But since Mrs. Piper learned some French in school, this proves nothing.

"had little apparent knowledge both of the French language and medicine"

From what I've read, Phinuit had knowledge of traditional herbal remedies but not of more modern medicine. Possibly this is knowledge Mrs. Piper could have picked up on her own.

"Among other spirit guides she claimed were assuming control of her were a young Indian girl named Chlorine, a man named Hodgson ..."

The Hodgson in question was of course the SPR investigator Richard Hodgson, who came through clearly enough to convince William James of Hodgson's continued postmortem existence.

Gardner's "cold reading" claim ignores the fact that many times Piper participated in proxy sittings, in which no one present knew the deceased. Much specific information, which was later verified,
came through these sessions. Cold reading doesn't work if the sitter has no information to reveal.

"Piper was unable to discern between real and fictitious information fed to her."

This claim appears to be based on a single case in which a skeptical researcher tried to trick Piper by feeding her information about a made-up person. Oddly, however, the investigator later admitted that he actually *had* known a person by that name, so it's not clear if the information was entirely fictitious or not.

Piper was unquestionably in a deep trance during the sessions. Efforts to awaken her, sometimes by applying smelling salts or even jabbing her with needles, had no effect. On one occasion she suffered lingering nerve damage to her hand from pressure applied while she was entranced.

"...and because of that you slate all mediums as frauds?"

Vitor doesn't think all mediums are frauds. He already said he regards Piper and Osborne Leonard as above suspicion.

"Vitor doesn't think all mediums are frauds. He already said he regards Piper and Osborne Leonard as above suspicion"

I cannot see how, according to Vitor,how they are above suspicion and Flint is not, especially since Flint does not appear to have been tainted with any suggestions of fraud levelled by those who have investigated him.

I do think Zerdini's comments illustrate the inconsistency in Vitor's comments about Flint.

Paul,

Vitor - I did say recent. I don't think the work on Osborne or Piper was recent really was it?

There are still many articles about both, very recently.

a) PHILIP COLE. Mrs. Piper Revisited. Australian Journal of Parapsychology 2001, Volume 1, Number 1, pp. 9-29

b)MICHAEL SUDDUTH. Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 23, No. 2, pp. 167–193, 2009. Super-Psi and the Survivalist Interpretation of Mediumship.

You do not mention any of the other research carried out on Flint.

Because I couldn't find any of the other research carried out on Flint in scientific journals. If you know, tell me the reference. Still today there are many articles about Sean Harribance, Ingo Swann etc.

Yes Armchair research which anyone can do

And why anyone did it before? 80 years had passed with almost all Brazilians thinking that Chico Xavier was an authentic medium. Only now I am changing this mentality. Do you want another example? This example you can see by yourself, you don't need to trust in my word. Go to this site:

http://www.pensar.org/2004-03-pastillas.html#fraud

It was me who noted that the face of the ghost was very similar to the other photos. My friend Kentaro Mori discovered the real photo. 80 years had passed and NO ONE had noted this. Me and Kentaro did this in our armchair.

So you have solved the question of survival without leaving your armchair (other than a single visit to a medium which was fruitless)? I don't think so lol.

I never said that.

Anyway, I am sure anyone seriously interested in researching Leslie Flint will approach it in a balanced way looking at all the available evidence (of which there is quite a lot as he died only as recently as 1994).

I hope so.

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