It seems that whenever the topic of reincarnation comes up on this blog, some rather intense conversations ensue. People clearly have strong feelings about reincarnation; some loathe the idea, while others are quite comfortable with it.
Of course, it doesn't help that mediums have conveyed decidedly mixed messages on the subject, with some saying everyone reincarnates dozens of times, others saying only certain people reincarnate, and still others insisting no one reincarnates!
If we take mediumship seriously, we have to wonder why there are such large discrepancies over such an important issue. One answer could be that reincarnation works differently for different people, and that it's more complicated than standard theories would suggest.
This is the approach taken by the communicator purporting to be F.W.H. Myers in Geraldine Cummins' book Beyond Human Personality (text online here). I've written about "Myers' " views on the etheric double in the two posts that immediately precede this one. What "Myers" says about reincarnation is also of interest. The excerpts below are taken from Chapter 4.
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I am quite clear that those human beings who live almost wholly in the physical sense while on earth, must be reborn in order that they may experience an intellectual and higher form of emotional life. In other words, those human beings I have described as "Animal-man" almost invariably reincarnate.
Some of the individuals I have designated by the term, "Soul-man," also choose to live again on earth. But metempsychosis does not involve a machine-like regularity of return. I have not noted any evidence of a continual progression of births and deaths for any one particular soul. I do not for a moment believe that the individual returns a hundred times or more to the earth. This is indeed, a wrong assumption. There may, of course, be certain exceptions which you are more likely to meet with among those primitive beings who seem incapable of aspiration -- of desire to rise above their physical nature. But the majority of people only reincarnate two, three or four times. Though if they have some human purpose or plan to achieve they may return as many as eight or nine times. No arbitrary figure can be named. We are only fairly safe in concluding that, in the human form, they are not doomed to wander over the space of fifty, a hundred and more lives.
They do not, it may be suggested, gather any proper share of experience from the few earth existences that are thus allotted to them. But provision has been made for the ignorance that is necessarily incurred through the whole span of lives covering but a fragment of typical experience.
Beggar, jester, king, poet, mother, soldier. I mention only six of the varied roles that would seem to provide lives entirely different in condition and in kind ...
However, it is well to be agreed that, even if we run the race of life on earth six times, we touch but on the fringe of human experience. We have obtained only a certain discipline. We have not plumbed the depths or scaled the heights of being; we have not covered all the space of human consciousness, of human feeling. Yet I can assure you that until we have harvested many times the fruits of lives spent on earth we shall not, save in exceptional cases, live on the higher planes beyond death.
It is not necessary for us to return to earth to gather into our granary this manifold variety of life and knowledge. We can reap, bind and bring much of it home by participating in the life of our group-soul. Many belong to it and these may spread themselves in their journeys over past, present and future ...
Through our communal existence I perceive and feel the drama in the earthly journey of a Buddhist priest, of an American merchant, of an Italian painter, and I am, if I assimilate the life thus lived, spared the living of it in the flesh.
You will recognize how greatly power of will, mind and perception can be increased through your entry into the larger self. You continue to preserve your identity and your fundamental individuality. But you develop immensely in character and in spiritual force. You gather the wisdom of the ages, not through the continual "Sturm und Drang" of hundreds of years passed in the confinement of the crude physical body, you gather it through love which has a gravitational pull and draws you within the memories of those who are akin to your soul, however alien their bodies may have been when they were on earth,
This existence within the memories of others is a form of experience scarcely understood by human beings. The soul resembles a spectator caught within the spell of some drama that is strange to its actual life. It does not therefore suffer or indeed thrill with the joy that direct physical experience would offer it of such a period in time. It perceives, however, all the consequences of acts, moods, thoughts in detail in this life of a kindred soul and so it may -- though feeling and emotion are now of a very different coinage and kind -- in this communal group-state, win the knowledge of all typical earth existences, of all the fundamental phases of being when the intelligence is bound to the flesh, the captive of the five senses and the brain with its myriad cells.
I do not write as one having authority. This little sketch of the soul's journey in relation to earth, is written out of my own experience and knowledge. It cannot, by any means, be said to be the last word on the subject. I am prepared to admit errors if I meet any souls of a wider experience than mine who can demonstrate effectively and beyond a doubt that the transcendental materialism of the early Theosophists is a sound and true doctrine, that the recurring cycle of births and deaths for one soul, goes on and on through many centuries, perhaps for a very long time ....
There is no set law concerning reincarnation. At a certain point in its progress, the soul reflects, weighs and considers the facts of its own nature in conjunction with its past life on earth. If you are primitive, this meditation is made more through instinct -- a kind of emotional thought -- that stirs up the depths of your being. Then the spirit helps you to choose your future. You have complete free will but your spirit indicates the path you should follow and you frequently obey that indication.
Bear in mind that the power behind each human being is imagination. It preserves the past in the form of memory, and unless temporarily fixed in a mould of its own making, is creating in the present, adding to itself, taking away from itself.
Recognize always the power for fresh creation that is inherent in each center of consciousness. In that power lies the hope of man's future, however low the level of his spiritual life.
The student of the journey of the soul will therefore perceive infinite variety if he considers the travels even of his comrades in the world after death -- the passing and re-passing over the frontiers, the existence in the physical and in the etheric state. For each soul differs from all other souls. No two are the same in character and nature. Their creative fancy will invariably produce variety, difference.
This being so, there can be no law which covers the whole field of conscious life in connection with the theory of reincarnation. The dogmatists, when faced with this problem, had better remain silent, folding their hands in reverence for the Divine Mystery which has, in its creation, ordained that those centers, the souls of living things, shall each in their varied ways find their road home to God, to that blissful, and ever creative life contained within the Cosmic Imagination.
A soul that, for the first time, enters a material body is, usually, related spiritually to some member of its Group and, so close is its relationship, it may take on the karma of the older soul. The latter has, perhaps, experienced four or five incarnations on earth. It is not yet wholly purified, has not gained all the terrestrial experience necessary to its spiritual evolution. It acquires it, however, in two ways: (1) through its entry into the group-memory, the conditions of which I have described: (2) through its psychic connection with a young soul which takes up the karma, takes on the pattern created by its previous earthly life or lives.
It will be recognized then, that it is bound psychically to this kinsman who is, indeed, in part its creation and so it is a witness of the earthly career of this traveller and its own spiritual life is enriched thereby.
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In this post, Michael Tymn talks about the group-soul idea, including "Myers' " discussion of it in Cummins' earlier book The Road to Immortality. Referring to the mediumship of Maurice Barbanell, Tymn quotes the spirit entity Silver Birch as saying, "... there are what you call ‘group souls,' a single unity with facets which have spiritual relationships that incarnate at different times, at different places, for the purpose of equipping the larger soul for its work."
Tymn goes on:
Silver Birch also likened the soul to an iceberg in which one small portion is manifesting and the greater portion not manifesting. He apparently was referring to what others have called the "Higher Self," the "Greater Self," or the "Oversoul" ...
However, he stressed that the individuality of the "facets" within the Group Soul is maintained.
Our separation is an illusion. Everyone is everyone. In a holographic universe everything interpenetrates everything, each piece contains the whole, so in a sense, each one of us will not have lived just one life but billions or even trillions of lives. Why must reincarnation be limited to just the Earth in a Universe with billions of possible inhabitable planets? The overwhelming and infinite sense of oneness and connectednesss that is mentioned so often in near death experiences is an obvious reference to it's holographic nature. References to "all knowledge", 360 degree vision, communicating telepathically, time and space not existing, and during the life review experiencing their entire life in a instant and feeling like they literally become the people who they interact with are obvious references to the holographic nature of the Spiritual Universe. I believe the "evidence" that we have for reincarnation may be real enough, but that it is misinterpreted and the story that humans have made up to go along with it is incomplete and wrong.
Posted by: Art | June 24, 2009 at 12:24 PM
I'm gonna have to just agree with Art's comment here. What is this all-important "self" notion that keeps popping up here? To quote Einstein, "an optical delusion of consciousness".
Posted by: Matthew C. | June 24, 2009 at 01:25 PM
“I do not write as one having authority. This little sketch of the soul's journey in relation to earth, is written out of my own experience and knowledge. It cannot, by any means, be said to be the last word on the subject. I am prepared to admit errors”
I commend Myers for stating this above quote. Even on the other side variation of beliefs exist but Myers willing to state from the other side “ I am prepared to admit errors” is in my opinion the true mark of a seeker into the mysteries of life.
“I am quite clear that those human beings who live almost wholly in the physical sense while on earth, must be reborn in order that they may experience an intellectual and higher form of emotional life. In other words, those human beings I have described as "Animal-man" almost invariably reincarnate.”
My research at this time suggests that new souls or newer souls may just come crashing onto the earth with little planning but as a soul matures it may decide to incarnate with much planning in the human form to learn special lessons to advance in awareness in love and define intelligence. I find the whole realm into the mysteries of life fascinating and challenging reading and study.
This statement does seem to reflect what my research has shown. Many who have passed over have come back to their spouses through a medium and claimed several previous incarnations with that spouse. Usually just a few incarnations if my memory serves me right. I talked to one Hindu lady at the store and she claimed that everyone has to be reincarnated 40 thousand times or some huge number like that. Ouch.
“Yet I can assure you that until we have harvested many times the fruits of lives spent on earth we shall not, save in exceptional cases, live on the higher planes beyond death.”
My research suggests this appears to be so. Note he left some room for exceptional cases.
“It (memories of others) does not therefore suffer or indeed thrill with the joy that direct physical experience would offer it of such a period in time.”
Very well stated indeed.
“There is no set law concerning reincarnation. At a certain point in its progress, the soul reflects, weighs and considers the facts of its own nature in conjunction with its past life on earth.”
It appears to be so and this is from my point of view very well stated in a concise manner.
“For each soul differs from all other souls. No two are the same in character and nature. Their creative fancy will invariably produce variety, difference.”
Now how every soul ever created or manifested is unique is an interesting topic for discussion. Is nature an incubator for soul births? Does consciousness evolve from lower forms of nature? Where do souls come from? Just pop and they are a soul. That does not seem to go along with the evolution of consciousness idea.
“A soul that, for the first time, enters a material body is, usually, related spiritually to some member of its Group and, so close is its relationship, it may take on the karma of the older soul.”
Could the term Group also be considered soul clusters, as it appears that soul clusters are a reality? In recent years this concept has sure came home to me in personal experiences. Would take too long to explain here.
There is that word karma again. Many see karma as punishment but my research indicates it is only a perfect feedback system. Without it I doubt we would ever learn. As I clicked on the TV today some gov big into family rights admitted to having an affair. Recently a senator who criticized others for their affairs had an affair. Just coincidence or just the human condition or karma? Self-righteousness does seem to have its consequences.
We often learn from our mistakes and the lessons just seem to keep coming to us until we learn. Karma may be some sort of law of progress without it we see little desire to learn.
“The dogmatists, when faced with this problem, had better remain silent, folding their hands in reverence for the Divine Mystery which has, in its creation, ordained that those centers, the souls of living things, shall each in their varied ways find their road home to God, to that blissful, and ever creative life contained within the Cosmic Imagination.”
Amen very well stated from my point of view. Love the concepts of divine mystery and cosmic imagination. Well-stated Myers. Now do we ever completely merge with that cosmic all from which we originated? I lean in the direction that we do but that is one area of my research that contains much debate and opposite teachings.
I am not sure the soul ever decides to merge it just becomes that that is. Maybe its soul group becomes that that is. Maybe not.
Posted by: william | June 24, 2009 at 01:32 PM
“What is this all-important "self" notion that keeps popping up here? To quote Einstein, "an optical delusion of consciousness".”
I take both Einstein’s and Myers view. How can that be to accept two views that appear contradictory? If we look at Einstein’s view from an infinite point of view than indeed one might use the words *delusion of consciousness. You signed your name Michael as I will sign my name as William so that delusion is incredibly powerful.
Now if we take Myers view we are taking a less than infinite view of reality and indeed we souls interact and experience ourselves as separate realities. How else could Infinite express itself in a dynamic reality without entities that perceive themselves as separate?
As a side note the origin of that perception of a unique self or identity is our innocence of our infinite reality. That innocence is often called ignorance as we find our way back home to the infinite from which we came. That ignorance often leads to most if not all of our suffering as the Buddha so rightly realized.
*I have always felt that the concepts of illusion and delusion are less than satisfactory words to describe our reality as souls. Would love to have a different word to use to explain our connection to the Infinite Absolute.
Posted by: william | June 24, 2009 at 01:49 PM
I think that based on Ian Stevenson's extensive research, reincarnation seems to be a real phenomenon.
But the fact that these medium transmissions contradict each other make me wonder why they're worth taking seriously.
Posted by: Sam | June 24, 2009 at 08:42 PM
I think that based on Ian Stevenson's extensive research, reincarnation seems to be a real phenomenon. - Sam
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If our brains work like recievers and transmitters of information, and our memories are stored "somewhere" then isn't it possible that a child, who hasn't developed a strong sense of self, might be tuned into some other soul's memories? As the child grows older, and develops his own sense of "self" those other memories slowly fade from consciousness? And, hypnotized adults might have their own sense of "self" turned off so they are able to tune into some other soul's memories?
And as far as those supposed birthmarks, isn't it possible that it is just a manifestation of the quantum physics property of "thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality?"
Some people are wedded to the idea of reincarnation but I believe there is a simpler easier explanation.
Posted by: Art | June 24, 2009 at 09:16 PM
Actually I think if a child claims to have been another person in a past life, and actually has the facts to back it up, reincarnation is the simpler explanation.
As for the idea that "thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality," I won't say this idea are wrong, but I don't think that it's necessarily backed up by quantum physics, even if you do follow the Copenhagen interpretation
Posted by: Sam | June 24, 2009 at 09:34 PM
*this idea IS wrong*
sorry
Posted by: Sam | June 24, 2009 at 09:40 PM
A little bit off-topic (well, not really...)
Watch these recent uploaded youtube videos of Charles Tart on survival of consciousness:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6C03A4318309E088&search_query=survival+consciousness
Posted by: Zetetic_chick | June 24, 2009 at 10:44 PM
"I think that based on Ian Stevenson's extensive research, reincarnation seems to be a real phenomenon."
Sam,
I think you'll find that even Ian Stevenson, right up to the time of his death, would not commit to simple reincarnation. He recognized the possibility of overshadowing, group soul, soul memories, whatever twist one wants to put on it. I'd quote one of his last writings for you, but I can't find it right now.
I think the Glastonbury spirit hit the nail on the head when he said: “You understand not reincarnation, nor can we explain. What in you reincarnates, do you think? How can you find words? Blind gropers after immutable facts, which are not of your sphere of experience.”
On a somewhat related topic, I saw a news segment the other night about someone suffering from "Foreign Accent Syndrome." I had never heard of this before, but I found quite a bit about it after Googling it. The neurologists says it is just a speech impediment resulting from brain trauma. The reincarnationist might say that it is a past-life coming through. My bet is that the trauma caused an entry way for a low-level spirit attachment.
Posted by: Michael Tymn | June 24, 2009 at 10:49 PM
“But the fact that these medium transmissions contradict each other make me wonder why they're worth taking seriously.”
This is very confusing and takes much time and research to begin to see that these other dimensions contain souls “spirits” that have different beliefs much like we on earth have different beliefs It could also depend on the medium as “spirits” are attracted often to mediums that share their beliefs. Ask 100 people in the world selected at random a question on any topic and see how many different answers you get.
This idea that everyone blends into one consciousness and everybody thinks alike after they cross over is not what my research has shown. Quite the opposite these other dimensions have much variation of thought.
Now it also appears that the higher the vibration level and dimension the less variation of thought. But it also appears that higher-level spirits seldom come through in a séance. I think this is often because of the level of consciousness of the medium.
“I am quite clear that those human beings who live almost wholly in the physical sense while on earth, must be reborn in order that they may experience an intellectual and higher form of emotional life” i.e. Myers.
Even Myers is not taken seriously and he is communicating from the other side. He appeared to be a par excellence paranormal researcher and I think reincarnation is such a distasteful idea that we really want to find a way not to accept reincarnation. But I also think most souls look at reincarnation from the other side as not quite so distasteful. Time is a different reality on the other side.
What about the young child that crosses over at 4 or younger; has he or she learned enough about physical life not to come back? I think the resistance to another physical incarnation is based in fear, as I fully understand.
After discovering that reincarnation might be a reality I spent two years doing long meditations hoping to become enlightened enough not to return to earth. Well it was spiritual ambition and of course it did not work.
Posted by: william | June 24, 2009 at 11:38 PM
“I think you'll find that even Ian Stevenson, right up to the time of his death, would not commit to simple reincarnation.”
Ira Stevenson was a purist researcher he knew he could not prove reincarnation but he collected evidence for 45 years that suggested reincarnation was a reality and let his readers decide if they wanted to believe in reincarnation.
My research revealed that his friends stated that privately that he did indeed believe in reincarnation but as a purist he knew he could not prove it absolutely. Researchers deal in probabilities rather than absolutes.
Stevenson did come out and say that he thought the Bridey Murphy case was a strong case for reincarnation. Look how that case was blotched and covered up with lies by disbelievers in reincarnation. It took a journalist two years of research to uncover the validity of Bridey Murphy’s story of what she believed was a past life she had lived. Still this is not proof just more evidence that suggests reincarnation.
I am not a fan of reincarnation but the evidence appears to exist that some type of rebirth is a reality. If a spirit can take control of a human body cannot a spirit take control of a human fetus? I appear to see new souls and older souls in all walks of life. Even a teacher of young children once told me we have new souls and older souls in this room and her religion taught that reincarnation does not exist.
“I think the Glastonbury spirit hit the nail on the head when he said: “You understand not reincarnation, nor can we explain. What in you reincarnates, do you think? How can you find words? Blind gropers after immutable facts, which are not of your sphere of experience.”
These are like testimonials you can always find someone to give a testimonial on just about anything. I have found spirit writings that appear by their level of writing to be advanced spirits to state that reincarnation exists. The “evidence” for reincarnation exists in several areas of paranormal research and the evidence also exists that reincarnation is not a reality. Kind of like you get to choose what you want to believe.
Many think that children learn so fast due to past memories not just learning new things. For many years I have watched young children learn and this could explain why some can learn so fast. I knew a child that knew fractions at three years old and had never been taught fractions. Another 4 year old could read at 4th grade level. But of course that could be spirit influence or other possibilities.
Oh the mysteries of life what would life be like if we did not have these mysteries to discover?
Posted by: william | June 25, 2009 at 01:41 AM
Are we assuming that 'spirits', if we grant they exist at all - I am not 100% convinced of this myself as yet, know much more than we do no matter how confident they sound?
Even here in our physical world intelligent, honest people of good will are perfectly capable of forming a model of the way the world works and to be convinced of it, only to have that model shown to be inaccurate in time. In some instances they still cling to it and refuse to acknowledge its shortcomings. Is this not as likely to be the case for those who have passed on, at least initially? If so, would this account, at least in part, for the diversity of opinion on reincarnation from those who have passed on?
The point Michael T made about intrusion of other spirits is I think an interesting one: as far as I can see a great deal of the evidence cited to support reincarnation (possibly all of it) is equally well explained by the influences of other spirits. Having read "Thirty Years Among The Dead" by Carl Wickland (not a very enticing title I admit but well worth reading) I am at least pursuaded to consider the influence of other entities.
Posted by: Paul W | June 25, 2009 at 03:25 AM
“If so, would this account, at least in part, for the diversity of opinion on reincarnation from those who have passed on?”
Maybe the truth lies somewhere in-between both reincarnation and spirit influence from the other side. It is not an all or nothing truth. I lean in the direction of a soul’s desire to reincarnate back into a human body to learn new lessons and maybe a newer less advanced soul just kind of comes crashing onto the scene. But spirit influence also has to be considered if one follows the evidence for it.
But if I have learned nothing else in this research be prepared to the best of your ability to have to change your views. It is usually mentality painful to do so and I suspect that is why we hang on to our beliefs with a passion even in spite of the evidence.
It is sooo easy to get locked into one point of view. Look at the Christian religion and the need for a sacrifice, which is defended at almost any cost. Indeed in the past at any cost even if it meant to kill those that challenged it. Even today we have religious clerics and laws in other countries that have the death penalty for those that challenge or even question their religious teachings.
Even in one country I know of switching from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death. This is also one of the most corrupt countries on earth and this is a country we will attempt to bring a form of democracy to its people. Anyone taking bets on this one?
Posted by: william | June 25, 2009 at 09:57 AM
"We can reap, bind and bring much of it home by participating in the life of our group-soul. Many belong to it and these may spread themselves in their journeys over past, present and future ..."
I am convinced in the truth of the Higher Self or Group soul idea. Apart from communicated by Myers, it's in other modern channeled works: Ra (Law of One), and Seth.
Posted by: Barbara | June 25, 2009 at 12:17 PM
I think eternity might be boring if not broken up by reincarnation. Maybe when a soul has been around too long it comes back in physical form to get that feeling of a "temporary" life and remember what suffering feels like cause after experiencing pain joy feels so much better. Who knows... its just what I think.
Posted by: Tommy | June 25, 2009 at 01:48 PM
I think eternity as one unbroken experience might become boring for the soul. Maybe souls reincarnate just to have the feeling of a "temporary" life and to experience suffering again. Suffering makes the good moments really worthwhile. Reincarnation can be scary but it can also be exciting. If we really live for eternity and there are an infinite amount of worlds think of all the different types of people you can come back as,think of all the different worlds you could come back in. Its scary and exciting but I think the purpose of reincarnation is to have a sort of "break" from eternal life.
Posted by: Tommy | June 25, 2009 at 01:51 PM
where do my comments keep going??
Posted by: Tommy | June 25, 2009 at 01:52 PM
“I think eternity might be boring if not broken up by reincarnation. Maybe when a soul has been around too long it comes back in physical form to get that feeling of a "temporary" life and remember what suffering feels like cause after experiencing pain joy feels so much better. Who knows... its just what I think.”
My research does not indicate this is why souls reincarnate. It appears it depends on the maturity of the soul. Newer souls may just come crashing onto the physical scene whereas older more mature souls may even plan out their environment, parents, and country to learn lessons.
I don’t remember reading anything where souls claim they come back because they are bored on the other side. Some souls claim they come back to learn lessons they did not learn in their past life and some souls almost have to be convinced by their soul guides they need to come back. Much of this comes from past life and between life research which that methodology is suspect in my mind at this time.
It appears that more mature souls have knowledge of what it is like in these higher dimensions and see the joy and bliss and creativity in these dimensions and are willing to endure a life that is often a harsh physical existence to have the opportunity to advance. I.e. soul growth.
As far as group souls it appears to me at least that indeed we are in soul clusters of a small group of souls and this cluster expands out to larger group clusters. But I suspect at these higher dimensions maybe the relationship, alikeness, and alignment of consciousness becomes so great that these soul clusters actually become a soul group kind of like a synergy effect.
Just some thoughts from my readings and not intended to be claimed as fact.
Posted by: william | June 25, 2009 at 03:03 PM
I didnt read the boredom thing anywhere, its just what I think.
Posted by: Tommy | June 25, 2009 at 03:12 PM
Oh man Michael Jackson just died. Im really sad about it. I hope he went somewhere good. Ive been a fan since I was a tiny little kid in the early 80s.
Posted by: Tommy | June 25, 2009 at 04:12 PM
The general tenor of " Beyond Human Personality "
does not seem to fit with my conception of Myers or the work of the SPR.
I thought that the SPR, and it's members, focused on "evidential"data.
Very little of this book is in any way evidential
Posted by: jack | June 25, 2009 at 04:45 PM
Has anyone done a study on a person's emotional state (specifically optimism- pessimism) and how this relates to the belief in reincarnation?
It seems clear that one would have to account for cultural differences (Hindu vs. Christian e.g.), but I think this would make an interesting study.
As an aside- we often find our logic at odds with the descriptions of ‘the other side’. But if you have studied modern physics, you will realize that our logic is often at odds with our description of this side as well. We worry about the fact that there aren’t clean agreements about how to deal with the evidence, but this is true of physics as well. Why would we think it would be different here?
Posted by: sonic | June 25, 2009 at 10:49 PM
“Has anyone done a study on a person's emotional state (specifically optimism- pessimism) and how this relates to the belief in reincarnation?”
I am interested in your theory as how a person’s emotional state relates to a belief in reincarnation?
“We worry about the fact that there aren’t clean agreements about how to deal with the evidence, but this is true of physics as well. Why would we think it would be different here?”
Good point we should not expect what you call clean agreements when it comes to dealing with paranormal evidence. That is what makes this research or study or whatever so interesting.
I was doing some research tonight on a medium called Lisa Williams and noticed when I googled her name some links came up Lisa Williams fraud. So I checked it out. This person that commented attended her show and said he figured out she was doing cold reading in 10 seconds. Truly the mind of a serious researcher at work here.
“Very little of this book is in any way evidential”
Depends on what person considers evidential. I find his words very evidential but not proof. Most of what he states in this book does agree with what I have learned in my study of the after life of course maybe that is why I consider it evidential.
From my point of view Myers research never received the recognition it deserved. His cross correspondence approach may be some of the best evidence we have of spirits being about to communicate from the other side through a medium.
Posted by: william | June 25, 2009 at 11:40 PM
"Of course, it doesn't help that mediums have conveyed decidedly mixed messages on the subject, with some saying everyone reincarnates dozens of times, others saying only certain people reincarnate, and still others insisting no one reincarnates!"
Isn't this just another another piece of evidence pointing to mediumsship being a mixed bag of self-delusion and fraud?
Posted by: sbu | June 26, 2009 at 06:26 AM
It could be sbu except that that last statement appears to ignore 150 years of research which includes a great deal of proven information that is unlikely to have been fraud or self-delusion. If you said a mixed bag of factual evidence, self-delusion and fraud I'd agree.
Posted by: Paul W | June 26, 2009 at 08:19 AM
"where do my comments keep going?"
One of TypePad's many quirks is that it will sometimes post your comment right away, while other times it will post your comment an hour later, and still other times it will briefly post your comment, then lose it, then find it again.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | June 26, 2009 at 09:04 AM
I feel so empty and sad that one of the greatest singers of all time is dead , some of the music songs i liked was rock with you, thriller, black or white and beat it. One thing that keeps a smile on my face is knowing that he is in the afterlife.
Posted by: Leo MacDonald | June 26, 2009 at 09:23 AM
Regarding the comments disappearing, it might just be that you need to clear your cache.
Posted by: Sam | June 26, 2009 at 10:00 AM
“His cross correspondence approach may be some of the best evidence we have of spirits being about to communicate from the other side through a medium”
Correction: His cross correspondence approach may be some of the best evidence we have of spirits being able to communicate from the other side through a medium.
"Of course, it doesn't help that mediums have conveyed decidedly mixed messages on the subject”
There is a variation of beliefs on this other side as there is on this side of life. This idea that we become all knowing and oneness of thought after we cross over does not appear to be a reality. There are some differences after we cross over but being all knowing does not appear to be one of those differences.
Without variation where would the interaction (i.e. drama) be? Variation of thought is at the very core of this infinite Absolute being able to create and express its dynamic potential. To tie this variation to unawareness may be a path to discover the origin of our suffering.
When we look deeply into our unawareness of our oneness we may be able to see that the creation of a multiplicity of Beings that we call souls demands this unawareness. Infinite mind knows no multiplicity only Isness, but temporal minds must have a variation of thought. We are living proof of that variation of thought.
“If you said a mixed bag of factual evidence, self-delusion and fraud I'd agree.”
And might I add mediums with different levels or degrees of abilities. And why is it many expect mediums to perform at the same level of ability every time they are demonstrating their mediumship abilities?
Posted by: william | June 26, 2009 at 10:45 AM
"Finally, I may say that it is possible for the embryonic souls of animals so to evolve that many, making one group, eventually become one human soul. In this matter there is no question of good or evil, it is merely founded on the basic principle that consciousness must find experiences in a more and more complicated organism until it reaches the human level."
Hmm I found this little piece of information in Myers book. This quote suggests that Myers may believe that maybe the Hindus are on to something. When I asked the question is nature an incubator for soul development I was accused by one person of my beliefs being Hinduism. Although I find no evidence those souls that are "sinful" return to being an animal in their next incarnation. I.e. fear and control factor?
History has shown that one way to control people indeed whole populations is by the use of fear. I noticed when I was doing my research into different religions one religion used the threat of reincarnation as a fear factor. I.e. “if you don’t meditate and change you will reincarnate and come back to this world and suffer again”. A quote taken from a self-realization fellowship sermon.
I have heard some people state that they want to return and be a pet dog considering how some people treat their pet dogs.
Posted by: william | June 26, 2009 at 01:19 PM
There is an assumption that some humans are more highly evolved than others, and that humans are more highly evolved than animals. I don't know if it's true or not, but either way it seems to be an old idea that many people take for granted and don't question.
If it's true, than I may be more highly evolved than my neighbor, for example. It resembles ancient Hindu thinking, with its caste system, and it doesn't fit very well with American Democratic ideals.
Of course, whether it fits our ideals or not is irrelevant, and all that matters is whether or not it's true. Maybe it is, but I have doubts.
For example, it has often been assumed that "primitive" tribal people are at a lower level of intelligence than civilized, modern people. But this has turned out to be completely untrue, according to anthropological research.
So maybe the idea of spiritual evolution will also turn out to be completely untrue, and based on elitist mythology.
"human beings who live almost wholly in the physical sense while on earth, must be reborn in order that they may experience an intellectual and higher form of emotional life."
Is there any reason for us to believe that? And if these people are "animal men," what does that say about non-human animals? Should we assume than animals are merely physical, without intelligence or deep emotional experience?
Dog owners would probably not agree. I can't imagine anyone who loves a dog seeing that dog as lowly or merely physical.
So I think that to some extent this Myers entity is speaking from a combination of Hindu and modern European elitism.
Yes of course there is such a thing as evolution -- we can see that life on earth has progressed from simpler to more complex. We can see that our species is by far the most intellectual, conscious and self-aware.
But does that mean we -- or some of us -- are on a higher spiritual level than others? Some of us are more educated, more philosophical, more self-conscious, etc. But does that imply some kind of superiority?
I personally don't think so. I think that if someone improves their intellectual understanding, their intuitive abilities will suffer. If they improve their spiritual abilities, their intellectual and emotional abilities may suffer. And so on. I think it's more of a trade-off than a ladder.
But of course I have no way of knowing. I very much prefer the American democratic approach over the elitist approaches. For example, I can't stand ken Wilber's color system -- it's really all about his own preference for certain personality types.
I think if a person spends their life focused on making money, fighting wars, creating works of art, helping others, studying philosophy, praying and meditating -- whatever path they choose to follow -- it's all spiritual, and it's all a way of experiencing God's creation.
I am not saying everyone is the same and everyone is equal. I am saying that I am skeptical about the spiritual ladder than is so widely believed in some spiritual traditions, whether ancient Eastern or modern Western.
Posted by: realpc | June 26, 2009 at 06:03 PM
So I think that to some extent this Myers entity is speaking from a combination of Hindu and modern European elitism. - realpc
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Or it's made up hooey. Like everything else in life, some of it's true and some of it's pure and utter made up highly embellished balogna. It's up to us to be able to try and figure what might be true and what might be hooey.
Posted by: Art | June 26, 2009 at 08:40 PM
“Or it's made up hooey.”
Myers was a very serous researcher in physical life why would we then believe that he was not just as serious in the after life. This is not to say that what Myers has stated is proof positive or a fact of what is reality his writings are only one more piece of information or data.
It appears that consciousness evolves maybe it evolves from lower forms of nature maybe not. Souls come from somewhere this may be the approach whence they come. If I have learned nothing else from my research and my life we humans tend to reject most information that does not agree with our preference of beliefs.
The caste system is not based on spiritual understanding but ego identification. From my point of view religious dogma is to be found in all religions.
“I am not saying everyone is the same and everyone is equal. I am saying that I am skeptical about the spiritual ladder”
If everyone is not equal then does that not suggest some type of spiritual ladder? Now I believe we must not confuse intellectual capability with spiritual awareness. What would the meaning and purpose of life be without some type of “spiritual ladder”? Some spirits have called this spiritual ladder the law of progress.
Much of my research indicates to me at least (which does not make it fact) that indeed consciousness moves in the direction of increasingly higher levels of consciousness that affects that entities vibration level. It also appears that the closer our consciousness moves towards this Absolute most call God the more “power” it has attainted.
The more “power” the less it is used at these higher levels of consciousness. History bears witness as to what happens when too much power is given to a Being that lacks spiritual awareness. If the stories about Jesus are mostly true he appears to have had a great deal of power over the physical world.
“I very much prefer the American democratic approach over the elitist approaches.”
An elitist approach I suspect can be as good of teacher of spiritual lessons as a democratic approach.
“Some of us are more educated, more philosophical, more self-conscious, etc. But does that imply some kind of superiority?”
The concept of superiority is of the fragile ego needing feelings of superiority to hide its own feelings of inferiority. Look around Hitler thought his people were superior even whole nations can have feelings of superiority. I suspect that Hitler suffered much from intense feelings of inferiority and self hate. This is not spiritual awareness but ego identification as being separate and superior.
I suspect that a soul in a higher dimension would not consider them selves as having superiority over a soul in a lower dimension. Maybe compassion, but not superiority. I suspect they know all too well from whence they came. Those that think themselves to be first are probably last.
As far as educated from my point of view our level of education is not much if any indicator of spiritual awareness. In fact when I started this research over 18 years ago I felt that having a PhD could be a tremendous road block to self discovery or might create a tunnel vision for my gaining new information.
I have worked with and taught many PhD’s and know full well what appears to be the positive causal correlation of tunnel vision and PhD status. As I taught over 200 hundred seminars with a wide variety of levels of education in the room it appeared to me that those with the most open mind (not the smartest now) but open mind may have been those with a two year degree. Maybe just enough education to know how little you know.
“I don't know if it's true or not, but either way it seems to be an old idea that many people take for granted and don't question.” I.e. some humans more highly evolved than others.
I have questioned it, rejected it, and then thought about it. Few I find even want to discuss it. Maybe it is best we don’t. What is to be gained by questioning it? It does for me at least go along with the idea of an evolution of consciousness and an underlying reality of our physical dimension.
“Is there any reason for us to believe that? And if these people are "animal men,"”
I find the term “animal man” a distasteful way of referring to any entity that is at a lower level of spiritual awareness. I think he is referring to animal man as a soul that is a newer soul. Does anyone know if Myers had such beliefs when he lived in the physical world?
Posted by: william | June 26, 2009 at 11:39 PM
“But the Spirit of the Cosmos mercifully does not envisage justice as it is conceived by man, and so this Supreme Mind recognizes evil merely as disordered, dissociated, imperfect imagining that slowly, through such disorder, evolves into an ordered harmonious condition within the life of the group-soul and within cosmic life.”
From my point of view this last sentence in the book with a chapter entitled justice is a profound statement about evil. Evil as an absolute is nonexistent. For evil to be an absolute then some aspect of God would have to be evil. It is imperfect and it does exist as an appearance and through our actions in our lives. All what we humans call evil has its home in unawareness. No unawareness no evil. Likewise no unawareness no suffering. And of course, no unawareness, no us.
Posted by: william | June 27, 2009 at 12:08 AM
"I suspect that a soul in a higher dimension would not consider them selves as having superiority over a soul in a lower dimension. Maybe compassion, but not superiority."
For some reason, I would rather they feel superior to me than feel compassion for me. This is an emotional reaction, I realize. I just don't like the idea of some highly evolved soul looking down at me from great heights with compassion. Ugh.
I feel that I have my own strengths and weaknesses, as does everyone, and I don't feel that anyone is above or below me on some ladder.
I suspect the whole spiritual ladder idea grew out of certain things that I consider misconceptions -- that civilized people are superior to primitive people, for example, or that humans are superior to other animals.
I just don't buy it, but of course I can't possibly know.
Posted by: realpc | June 27, 2009 at 06:42 AM
“Or it's made up hooey.” - Art
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Myers was a very serous researcher in physical life why would we then believe that he was not just as serious in the after life. This is not to say that what Myers has stated is proof positive or a fact of what is reality his writings are only one more piece of information or data.
- william
____________________________________________
The problem I have with Mediums is that some of what they are getting might be from the other side and some of it might be culturally influenced with their own beliefs mixed in. Stuff they have heard or read or believe themselves. The exact same thing when those monks scribes were transcribing stories that have been passed down to us 2,000 years later. It's difficult to sort out what is "real" from what is highly embellished, culturally influenced, coming from the mind of the Medium herself.
It doesn't have to be "all or nothing." I heard a sermon one time where the preacher held up a copy of the Bible and he said "It's either all true or it's all lies!" At the time it sort of made sense to me, but now that I'm a whole lot older I know that isn't the way life really is. Some of it can be true and some of it can be made up hooey.
Posted by: Art | June 27, 2009 at 07:02 AM
"I think if a person spends their life focused on making money, fighting wars, creating works of art, helping others, studying philosophy, praying and meditating -- whatever path they choose to follow -- it's all spiritual, and it's all a way of experiencing God's creation."
That's a very interesting comment, realpc. Thanks.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | June 27, 2009 at 09:39 AM
Lucian of Samosata wrote,circa 160 AD, a story about wealth and power, entitled "The Cock".
The cock was a reincarnated pythagorus (among many reincarnations)
Micyllus (main character) asked the cock if he(Micyllus) would reincarnate to a good life
"...And what am I going to be next?...If it is anything good, I'll hang myself this moment from the very perch on which you stand."
(The Works of Lucian of Samosata. Translated by Fowler and Fowler.Oxford press.1905,1939,1949.Vol.3.p.115)
Posted by: jack | June 27, 2009 at 09:40 AM
“I just don't like the idea of some highly evolved soul looking down at me from great heights with compassion. Ugh”
From my point of view this is because in this physical environment compassion is a very rare phenomena. I realize this is a very controversial statement. Only in a dream state that some call a visitation was I able to experience from another entity what I now believe was compassion. Most of what I think we experience on this earth is pity, sympathy, or empathy. Compassion may very well be the highest form of love in action or demonstrated.
I wish I could put into words accurately what that compassion felt like but I cannot even begin to explain its pure magnificence or whatever. There are no words that I know of that can express what it felt like. The best I can do is state it was an understanding of the very core of my fears, actions, loneliness, struggles, beliefs, errors, or whatever during a life review expressed with such love and understanding that I have ever known on this earth. I.e. ever known in this life at least.
No judgment, no put downs, no attacks; just some type of pure acceptance and understanding of my life that appears to be very rare if not impossible on this earth. Whereas superiority has at its very core feelings of judgment often followed by internal thoughts of look at me I must be better than you. Of course these feelings of superiority are based in ego identification and the intellect not spirit identification based in divine intelligence.
“I just don't buy it, but of course I can't possibly know.”
First analyze the statement “ I just don’t buy it” that may be revealing in itself. Now can we possibly know proof positive. No, even when we cross over we may not know proof positive many of the statements that Myers is communicating through this medium is proof positive.
But what we can do is gather evidence and maybe increase our knowledge of the mysteries of life. We must deal with probabilities not proofs. That is the reality of an imperfect mind. I.e. us. Even Myers admits his imperfect mind.
Posted by: william | June 27, 2009 at 10:26 AM
Michael Prescott,
I think the leaders of mystical traditions, like Buddhism, Theosophy, or whatever, assume that spirituality is the highest goal because it was their highest goal, and their life was devoted to it. They weren't great artists or scientists or poets -- their whole existence was defined by spiritual growth. So of course they see themselves and people like them as the avant guard of evolution.
Great philosophers probably think philosophers are the most highly evolved, great artists probably would say no, creating art is the height of human potential.
A person with a talent for making money probably feels he/she is experiencing what life is about, with all its excitement and challenge. A great warrior probably feels his work is the most noble, the most courageous, and the most important -- since without him a society can't exist.
Then you have someone like Jesus or Buddha, or any of the great mystics, who prefer to detach from this world and connect with higher levels of existence. Ok, that's fine, but not necessarily for everyone, and not necessarily better.
I actually think there is something anti-life about Christianity and Buddhism -- their leaders literally rejected this world and found it contemptible. But if we believe God created this world, and that it has its own kind of beauty, then we might not want to despise it.
Christianity is ALL about getting ready for the next life. It is NOT about how to live better in this life.
Well I am not claiming to have any answer. I am actually saying I am skeptical about everyone who has claimed to have answers, including Buddha and Jesus. Yes, I think there are many partial answers, but no complete answers.
There is a very strong tendency among spiritually inclined people these days -- and maybe always -- to look down at everyone who is involved in business or war. They really seem to think our society could somehow exist without business or war, that it would all be so lovely if the spiritual people were in charge.
Not realizing, of course, that spiritual people don't have the experience or talent for running and defending a civilization.
And by the way I am not involved in business or war, and I consider myself spiritual. I just don't think I have any reason to feel superior because of it. I think feeling superior to someone or something is a very basic human instinct. Anything that comes through a medium might be colored and distorted by her ego.
I recently read a book by a woman who sees auras. She claims that all the colors have equal value, but her spectrum is a ladder from physical (red, orange, yellow) to intellectual (green) to emotional (blue) to spiritual (violet, indigo), somewhat parallel to the chakras.
Maybe she's right, I don't know, but I would be very surprised if she located herself near the bottom of that ladder.
Posted by: realpc | June 27, 2009 at 12:34 PM
realpc: Very well stated and thought out.
Living in the now appears to be much spiritual wisdom. Finding spiritual wisdom in the small every day things is life is I suspect very important. I think physical existence is one phase of the development of a soul. Oneness can interact with itself and express itself with the process of soul development.
“But if we believe God created this world, and that it has its own kind of beauty, then we might not want to despise it.”
This is one thing I have against Buddhism the belief that life and even rebirth is not a good thing. It appears to me at least that the Infinite source of all that is expresses itself by an evolution of consciousness process and that process produces infinite unique souls.
One Buddhist monk I went to stay a few days with not only stated in his book that life is worthless but disgusting. He had a PhD in Buddhism. Ouch. The Buddhists refuse to ask what is the origin of our ignorance.
“Then you have someone like Jesus or Buddha, or any of the great mystics, who prefer to detach from this world and connect with higher levels of existence”
They may be able to detach from this world at will but it looks like they were in the world but of the world. They devoted much of their lives pointing a finger to truths. It was like they were here not of necessity but to be on a mission to bring new spiritual awareness to the world. I.e. a spiritual paradigm shift. Sorry love those paradigms.
Now of course many of their followers have inserted many of their own beliefs into their teachings but that is common as Mark Twain stated: “God made man in his image and then man returned the favor.” Love that quote one of my favorites.
Another favorite of mind is that “Christianity died on the cross”.
Posted by: william | June 27, 2009 at 01:57 PM
“The problem I have with Mediums is that some of what they are getting might be from the other side and some of it might be culturally influenced with their own beliefs mixed in. Stuff they have heard or read or believe themselves.”
Absolutely that is why I wondered and even asked if Myers has any of these similar beliefs while he lived on earth. Also the same can be said for NDE’s as my research indicates that indeed the beliefs of the person experiencing the NDE does influence what some or much of what the person sees and experiences in their NDE.
But not all as there are some experiences that are common to most NDE. Those that are common may indeed be a reality. I.e. tunnel experience, bright light, unbelievable love, life review, etc.
This is why many years ago when all this information I was gathering into the paranormal appeared to have many conflicting “reports” and teachings. I decided to use a cross validation approach while not perfect it may move us from putting all our eggs in one basket. Because we humans tend to love to put our “eggs” in our belief basket then it often becomes thee basket. Others baskets to our way of thinking has holes in it but ours becomes error proof.
For example a Christian minister can spend their life doing research and become convinced every word in their bible is all truth. As so with a Islam cleric or a Buddhist monk or Hindu monk, etc. We tend to be able to see other’s ignorance but unaware of our own unawareness.
Posted by: william | June 27, 2009 at 01:59 PM
For example a Christian minister can spend their life doing research and become convinced every word in their bible is all truth. As so with a Islam cleric or a Buddhist monk or Hindu monk, etc. We tend to be able to see other’s ignorance but unaware of our own unawareness. - william
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I think it's called "comparison bias." I find it to be especially true in politics. I participate on the Motely Fool Retire Early CampFIRE board and you wouldn't believe how bent out of shape people get about politics. My older sister, Linda, and her daughter, Heather, are both in love with Barack Obama and can wax poetic about him for hours. I've tried to tell them that I am very skeptical of free will and lean heavily towards fate and predestination but they just don't seem to understand what I mean by that. I've told my sister Linda that I could care less about politics and that I think "free will" is an illusion created by our brains but she can't believe it. She really likes being in control and the idea that she isn't goes against everything she believes life to be about.
Posted by: Art | June 27, 2009 at 02:55 PM
control of a human fetus?"
-Based on original myths that have evolved into "reality"?
" I appear to see new souls and older souls in all walks of life."
-Again, sort of like the VW Beetle effect? It's amazing all the evidence that can be found for what you already believe is a reality isn't it? As well as how much evidence that contradicts it, that you will reject.
"Many think that children learn so fast due to past memories not just learning new things."
-Grasping at straws. Is this what you call research?
"Oh the mysteries of life what would life be like if we did not have these mysteries to discover?"
-Well for one thing we'd have less attachments.
"The point Michael T made about intrusion of other spirits is I think an interesting one: as far as I can see a great deal of the evidence cited to support reincarnation (possibly all of it) is equally well explained by the influences of other spirits."
-Yes. You obviously have an open mind and don't already "know" what "reality" is.
"I lean in the direction of a soul’s desire to reincarnate back into a human body to learn new lessons and maybe a newer less advanced soul just kind of comes crashing onto the scene."
-You lean in the direction of fantasy and myth.
"I think eternity might be boring if not broken up by reincarnation."
-A very silly comment from someone who obviously has looked at very litte, the earth is the MOST interesting thing there is. Most reincarnationists are like this. All the while, they laugh at Christians for anticipating their heaven of nothing more than praising Jesus.
"Newer souls may just come crashing onto the physical scene whereas older more mature souls may even plan out their environment, parents, and country to learn lessons."
-More of the 'earth is EVERYTHING' nonsense. It really looks like you research more in fantasy myth than anything else.
"Depends on what person considers evidential. I find his words very evidential but not proof. "
-You find all kinds of myths to be evidential!?
"There is a variation of beliefs on this other side as there is on this side of life. This idea that we become all knowing and oneness of thought after we cross over does not appear to be a reality."
-Yes, and it's just a smorgasborg of whatever you want to believe. But when what you believe originates in myth, it won't make it a fact.
"Hmm I found this little piece of information in Myers book. This quote suggests that Myers may believe that maybe the Hindus are on to something."
-The hindus are onto something? What would that be? The human made myth of reincarnation of castes, etc.? Or transmigration as punishment? Myers obviously indulges in fantasy and might be with others who do the same.
"Myers was a very serous researcher in physical life why would we then believe that he was not just as serious in the after life."
-He obviously buys into myths. If you think this is wise, good luck to you.
"Another favorite of mind is that “Christianity died on the cross”."
-And it would be beneficial to all people (who are attached onto) if the myth of 'past lives died in a past life.'
"For example a Christian minister can spend their life doing research and become convinced every word in their bible is all truth."
-Just like you. You have done much research and you find reincarnation which is all based on myth, to be "reality".
Posted by: Duncan | June 28, 2009 at 06:36 AM
SORRY THE LAST POST SCREWED UP:
"My research at this time suggests that new souls or newer souls may just come crashing onto the earth with little planning but as a soul matures it may decide to incarnate with much planning in the human form to learn special lessons to advance in awareness in love and define intelligence."
-Or they come crashing onto the scene and attach. This crashing would account for much of the clear evidence of attachment, but I guess if you don't want to see it that way you probably won't.
"This statement does seem to reflect what my research has shown. Many who have passed over have come back to their spouses through a medium and claimed several previous incarnations with that spouse.
-And the proof of those past lives is where? Probably an earthbound having a laugh, or just being malicious.
"“Yet I can assure you that until we have harvested many times the fruits of lives spent on earth we shall not, save in exceptional cases, live on the higher planes beyond death.” "My research suggests this appears to be so."
-So what if you "do worse" each earth life? You go to lower planes then? Is this a chance worth taking? You can go up but now down? Does that make sense?
"“There is no set law concerning reincarnation. At a certain point in its progress, the soul reflects, weighs and considers the facts of its own nature in conjunction with its past life on earth.” "It appears to be so and this is from my point of view very well stated in a concise manner."
-Remarkable how your reincarnation research conicides and cross references with most standard reincarnation beliefs. Sort of like noticing all the VW Beetles there are around after you buy one, but you didn't see even one before that.
"Could the term Group also be considered soul clusters, as it appears that soul clusters are a reality?"
-No, oversoul is not soul cluster. Not even close. Soul clusters are a reality based on what? More hearsay from invisible "somethings" that nothing can be verified as to their identity or intelligence? No matter which way you see "reality" reincarnation all started from myths invented by people that has been passed along and has been changed into more "suitable" versions over time to accomodate people's changing beliefs. You'll need more than some hearsay from alleged spirits for it to be a reality.
"Recently a senator who criticized others for their affairs had an affair. Just coincidence or just the human condition or karma?"
-No, karma also is a myth invented by people that has been changed over the years to accomodate new beliefs. He's just a foolish person, this senator, nothing else.
"Now do we ever completely merge with that cosmic all from which we originated? I lean in the direction that we do but that is one area of my research that contains much debate and opposite teachings."
-Best wishes to on your non existence. You also lean in the direction of reincarnation which is also a myth.
"I take both Einstein’s and Myers view. How can that be to accept two views that appear contradictory? If we look at Einstein’s view from an infinite point of view than indeed one might use the words *delusion of consciousness."
-Yes, I've been reading about Einstein after seeing some other posts. It doesn't surprise me at all that you found a way to accept two contradictory views. Reincarnationists often do this to support their mythical belief. It's not unusual at all.
"That ignorance often leads to most if not all of our suffering as the Buddha so rightly realized."
-As I noticed other people ask you, is this absolutely true? How do you know for sure? Why claim that it is?
"I think that based on Ian Stevenson's extensive research, reincarnation seems to be a real phenomenon."
-Maybe you need to look further than Ian Stevenson then.
"What about the young child that crosses over at 4 or younger; has he or she learned enough about physical life not to come back? "
-Maybe, as so many spiritualists claim, he doesn't have to come back to "learn" more. Isn't there any learning after this world? Why do reincarnationists always think that this world is the utmost of everything? Nonsense.
"After discovering that reincarnation might be a reality I spent two years doing long meditations hoping to become enlightened enough not to return to earth."
-So, you managed to talk yourself into accepting a myth. Very normal, many Christians and those of other persuasion have done this for a long time, regarding hell. You're not new. Maybe after seeing all the research evidence for hell you will become a Christian?
"My research revealed that his friends stated that privately that he did indeed believe in reincarnation but as a purist he knew he could not prove it absolutely."
-If Ian Stevenson believed the myth of reincarnation, would that make a myth reality to you?
"Stevenson did come out and say that he thought the Bridey Murphy case was a strong case for reincarnation. Look how that case was blotched and covered up with lies by disbelievers in reincarnation."
-Your research is obviously not as deep as you say it is. I have looked at Bridey Murphy's case and it is so obvious is baloney that only someone who wants reincarnation to be a reality could see it as "fact". I have many documents on this case, maybe you should look further?
"I am not a fan of reincarnation but the evidence appears to exist that some type of rebirth is a reality. If a spirit can take control of a human body cannot a spirit take control of a human fetus?"
-Based on original myths that have evolved into "reality"?
" I appear to see new souls and older souls in all walks of life."
-Again, sort of like the VW Beetle effect? It's amazing all the evidence that can be found for what you already believe is a reality isn't it? As well as how much evidence that contradicts it, that you will reject.
"Many think that children learn so fast due to past memories not just learning new things."
-Grasping at straws. Is this what you call research?
"Oh the mysteries of life what would life be like if we did not have these mysteries to discover?"
-Well for one thing we'd have less attachments.
"The point Michael T made about intrusion of other spirits is I think an interesting one: as far as I can see a great deal of the evidence cited to support reincarnation (possibly all of it) is equally well explained by the influences of other spirits."
-Yes. You obviously have an open mind and don't already "know" what "reality" is.
"I lean in the direction of a soul’s desire to reincarnate back into a human body to learn new lessons and maybe a newer less advanced soul just kind of comes crashing onto the scene."
-You lean in the direction of fantasy and myth.
"I think eternity might be boring if not broken up by reincarnation."
-A very silly comment from someone who obviously has looked at very litte, the earth is the MOST interesting thing there is. Most reincarnationists are like this. All the while, they laugh at Christians for anticipating their heaven of nothing more than praising Jesus.
"Newer souls may just come crashing onto the physical scene whereas older more mature souls may even plan out their environment, parents, and country to learn lessons."
-More of the 'earth is EVERYTHING' nonsense. It really looks like you research more in fantasy myth than anything else.
"Depends on what person considers evidential. I find his words very evidential but not proof. "
-You find all kinds of myths to be evidential!?
"There is a variation of beliefs on this other side as there is on this side of life. This idea that we become all knowing and oneness of thought after we cross over does not appear to be a reality."
-Yes, and it's just a smorgasborg of whatever you want to believe. But when what you believe originates in myth, it won't make it a fact.
"Hmm I found this little piece of information in Myers book. This quote suggests that Myers may believe that maybe the Hindus are on to something."
-The hindus are onto something? What would that be? The human made myth of reincarnation of castes, etc.? Or transmigration as punishment? Myers obviously indulges in fantasy and might be with others who do the same.
"Myers was a very serous researcher in physical life why would we then believe that he was not just as serious in the after life."
-He obviously buys into myths. If you think this is wise, good luck to you.
"Another favorite of mind is that “Christianity died on the cross”."
-And it would be beneficial to all people (who are attached onto) if the myth of 'past lives died in a past life.'
"For example a Christian minister can spend their life doing research and become convinced every word in their bible is all truth."
-Just like you. You have done much research and you find reincarnation which is all based on myth, to be "reality".
Posted by: Duncan | June 28, 2009 at 06:37 AM
Dr. Edith Fiore (1978) authored one of the first books on past-life therapy, the clinical use of past-life recall. Past-life therapy was a quick and effective approach to many emotional and physical problems. She discovered during the course of her past-life therapy practice that the past lives described turned out to be the experience of attached earthbound spirits and not at all pertinent to the client.
Release of the attached spirits resolved the presenting problems. Fiore's second book describes the problem and treatment of spirit possession. She estimates that approximately 70% of the population is so afflicted. She is one of the first therapists to deal with the discarnate spirits directly through the voice of the person afflicted with the possession, instead of working through an intermediary, a trance medium (Fiore, 1987a)
For 16 years, Wilson Van Dusen worked as a clinical psychologist at Mendocino State Hospital in California. Van Dusen found consistently that the bulk of the other beings which spoke to the patients were of a lower order; vulgar, threatening, malevolent, persistent, intrusive, boastful, deceptive, and not very intelligent.
Swiss psychiatrist Hans Naegeli-Osjord, in private practice since 1940, has studied cases of obsession. He also works with earthbound spirit infestation of his clients, and sees mental illness as at least sometimes caused by attached spirits.)( In Brazil, remote spirit releasement is conducted routinely at the healing centers run by the Medical Spiritist Association of Sao Paulo. The work is done without charge. A doctor or a family member can send the name and address of an afflicted person. There is no welfare system in Brazil and these centers serve to fill this need for many people. Spiritual healing is performed in addition to standard health care. The work of dis-obsession, as it is called, is conducted by a group of six mediums. The facilitator calls out for the spirit interfering with the identified person. That spirit incorporates, or enters into, the medium in the center of the circle. Reminiscent of the work of Mesmer, the facilitator makes magnetic passes with the hand over the person, from the head downward, about six inches to a foot from the body. The spirit is expelled and apparently guided to its appropriate destination (Villoido and Krippner, 1986, pp. 9-25, 39-54; Rogo, 1987, 219-241).
Posted by: Duncan | June 28, 2009 at 06:42 AM
Hey look it's Pat, Houston now Duncan, make up your mind what you're name is would you? obvious it's the same person cause you spam comments constantly.
You've got to love people who are so against reincarnation that they have to start arguments with ones who believe in it, It's a hard thing to prove or disprove cause so many spirits are divided about it.
Once again I think this comes down to a belief system, I think that the more advanced spirits that say we as humans don't understand Reincarnation fully are spirits that speak truths, such as Silver Birch. just my 2 cents.
Posted by: | June 28, 2009 at 09:56 AM
"Hey look it's Pat, Houston now Duncan"
Bingo. Pat and Houston have the same IP address. Duncan is using a proxy server, so the IP address can't be traced, but the style is certainly similar.
I don't mind if someone uses multiple screen names, but it would be less confusing to choose just one.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | June 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Perhaps I am being naiive but why would someone use different names on the same forum?
Posted by: Paul W | June 28, 2009 at 01:53 PM
“I do not write as one having authority. This little sketch of the soul's journey in relation to earth, is written out of my own experience and knowledge. It cannot, by any means, be said to be the last word on the subject. I am prepared to admit errors”
Maybe the statement “I am prepared to admit errors” is one of the first steps to wisdom. My own research tends to agree with what Myers is stating. Myers was a very serious researcher now we have him writing about his own experiences both on earth and after he crossed over.
As he stated his words cannot be the last word on the subject. From my point of view this is a humble statement from a serious researcher. It is when we think our words are thee only words of truth that we lose our sense of discovery.
I attended a Christina church with a friend today and the last statement the preacher made in his sermon was “Jesus is the only way”. Now he did not say the way to what but what are the odds of this person who is convinced that he knows truth will be able to discover anything outside of his existing beliefs.
One of the things I have learned in my life is the following axiom. “Be prepared to be wrong”. The ego loathes being wrong as its self-esteem is often way to fragile to consider being wrong.
When I worked as an consultant most CEO’s hired me to help change the employees, supervisors and mangers way of thinking not realizing that the person that needs to change the most is the CEO. Was it Socrates that made some statements about an introspective life?
“Spiritual healing is performed in addition to standard health care” speaking of Brazil here.
I smiled when I read this statement because in Brazil many (about 10%?) follow the spirits book by Kardec who by the way claimed the spirits that came through his medium/s taught reincarnation.
“He also works with earthbound spirit infestation of his clients, and sees mental illness as at least sometimes caused by attached spirits”
I agree with this statement as long as the word sometimes is well thought-out.
Duncan or whatever you name is. Personal attack after personal attack even against Myers? Why do you consider others opinions, beliefs, statements that disagree with your beliefs so threatening? If one could just admit that the thought of reincarnation if valid is not a pleasant thought that might be a good starting point for dealing with those that do not believe as we do.
The way the universe works is that a personal attack on another is a personal attack on self. Their shame is our shame, their struggle is our struggle, and their poverty is our poverty, etc. this is why I suspect the spirits on the other side work as guides and teachers. They have come to realize the oneness of all that is.
Now I have been accused on this blog of accusing everyone that does not agree with me as having paradigm paralysis. I am working on that one. Others can see things we cannot see in ourselves if we listen carefully and yes often painfully they can help us to see changes we might want to make in our lives.
Introspection is a painful process and not for the faint of heart.
Posted by: william | June 28, 2009 at 05:22 PM
So long as he or she is not confused for the Duncan that is DM, I'm good.
Posted by: dmduncan | June 28, 2009 at 06:18 PM
"Perhaps I am being naive but why would someone use different names on the same forum?"
I don't know. Perhaps a particular comment didn't get through, and the commenter assumed he (or she) had been banned. I have not, however, banned anyone.
Well, not recently, anyhow.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | June 28, 2009 at 07:57 PM
Michael: you'd think if someone was thought they were banned they'd take the hint wouldn't you?
I won't go into how my remark about spirit-attachment was actually prefixed by "assuming spirits actually exist" before being quoted out of context my this Duncan geezer or whatever he/she is called, who then kindly tells me (wrongly) what I believe - most irritating, and it doesn't happen on here often which makes it all the more striking.
William: I agree with your comments about remaining open to doubt. I find it interesting that some seem so convinced they are right about reincarnation and survival (either pro or con) and attempt to prove their point whilst ignoring evidence from sources which don't support their view, or offering weak criticism of it, or descending to ad hominem attacks (esp against the dead or people they don't even know personally).
Perhaps it is fear or maybe they are simply exhibiting the same sort of dogmatic thinking that has been so successful for organised religions everywhere over the centuries (sic).
Why not accept that none of us here, saving one or two who have had direct personal experience (eg Zerdini) are in a position to do much more than theorise. Interesting though it is, it would be the height of arrogance to assume we have reached conclusive answers when we have seen nothing directly and are relying on third-party reports or our own thinking having dismissed these reports.
Reading the academic debate about whether mind and body can be separate I am asking myself what is the the point in such a heated discussion when millions of people report these experiences and more importantly some of the best phenomena have been witnessed by leading scientists and thinkers of their day. Would it not be better to consider these and offer some form of reasoned explanation for what has been repoted rather than deny they exist or resort to fraud or incompetence arguments?
Perhaps the mental jousting is reward in itself for those who participate.
The debate seems something of a waste of effort when there is so much observed evidence to be had though there seems a dearth of recent observations/research of significance.
Posted by: Paul W | June 29, 2009 at 03:12 AM
I've actually read in some books that there have been studies done (by Dr. Ken Ring, University of Connecticut) that people who learn and read about near death experiences reduce their fear of death. Near death experiencers completely lose their fear of death. They say they know that there is life after death and that it is wonderful. Most say the experience was "realer than real" and that they don't care what anyone says, they know.
Let's face it, mainstream Christianity and other religions don't paint a very compelling picture about death. At best it's some kind of boring heaven or burning forever in hell for minor infractions of some archaic code. Or in Buddhism and Hinduism your forced to repeat life over and over again till you get it right and then your soul merges with some kind of strange Nirvana (whatever the heck that means)?
It is generally assumed that most New Agey Spiritualist types believe in reincarnation. I don't. I think my view or ideas of Heaven are somewhat new and fresh. Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality, where time and space don't exist, and where the feelings of oneness, connectedness, and love are infinite and overwhelming. All the separation that we experience in this life doesn't exist and we get back everything in this life that we have loved and missed.
And like I've said before, no one has ever been able to explain away to me that mind boggling connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory, and there is also some connection to what some quantum physicist say about our universe. Quantum physics and the holographic universe theory are the frame that connects near death experiences, death bed visions, electronic voice phenomena, etc.
Posted by: Art | June 29, 2009 at 07:40 AM
Art,
I have a feeling, which I can't prove, that death is at least as much of a challenge as being born or living. Why would dying and going wherever be such a lovely breeze? If it were so nice elsewhere, why would any of us have agreed to come here?
I had several weird experiences while half awake that suggested to me that dying could be a major ordeal. But that is just my own personal impression. However I think it agrees with what I know of some mystical traditions.
I think the new age movement has mislead us into thinking there is ultimately nothing to fear. It was a reaction against the scary ideas so many Christians grew up with. They wanted to throw out the idea of hell, and also devils, evil spirits, etc.
How then can you explain demonic possession, for one thing? In my opinion, possession has a role in most mental and physical illness. New age thinking can't help us understand why there are bad spirits. It denies evil and refuses to deal with the question.
I think evil and hate are as real as goodness and love. It's a question of perspective -- most of the universe doesn't care about us and wouldn't mind squashing us like a bug.
Then there is some aspect of the universe that loves us, and which makes up all that seems good and loving to us. All the rest is evil, for us, but good for someone else.
Just my little theory.
Posted by: realpc | June 29, 2009 at 07:53 AM
If it were so nice elsewhere, why would any of us have agreed to come here? - realpc
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We come here to experience duality and separation, time and space, and imprint memories of what it is like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.
Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality, where time and space don't seem to exist and where the feelings of oneness and connectedness and love are infinite and overwhelming.
We experience separation in this life to teach the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness that are mentioned so often in NDE's.
Posted by: Art | June 29, 2009 at 07:58 AM
So you are assuming everyone goes to what you define as heaven when they die?
Posted by: realpc | June 29, 2009 at 09:40 AM
“Perhaps the mental jousting is reward in itself for those who participate.”
I think there is much to this statement. I.e. drama; we humans appear to love our drama. Sharing my views is of interest to me maybe it is just drama maybe not. Reading others views helps me to put my views in perspective and I try hard very hard to challenge my personal views.
Also sometimes while typing on the keypad I write some things and then when I read what I have written it almost appears as if those remarks came from where I do not know. Maybe sub consciousness maybe the other side I know not.
Also these discussions often lead to someone mentioning or recommending a book. Right now I am reading Estelle Roberts book on fifty years a medium. It has common themes for being a medium in it. Her book is much like ena twiggs book. Their lives especially their childhoods were very similar.
“It is generally assumed that most New Agey Spiritualist types believe in reincarnation.”
This is a contradictory statement. Spiritualists tend not to believe in reincarnation I suspect many so call new agey types do. Now the people that follow Kardec’s book the spirits book tend to believe in reincarnation as the spirits in his book teach reincarnation as a reality.
From my point of view many of the new age folks are very much interested in using spiritually to maximize the human condition. I.e. wealth generation etc. some refer to this as spiritual ambition. I personally see some type of evolution of consciousness occurring in this physical life and life beyond this physical life. Some form of spiral advancement as we move closer and closer to the Infinite in awareness, divine intelligence, vitality, and love.
“attempt to prove their point whilst ignoring evidence from sources which don't support their view, or offering weak criticism of it, or descending to ad hominem attack”
As I have stated many times I suspect these attacks are based in doubt not certainty. Certainty has its home in a knowing beyond knowing and this condition is a rare phenomenon. I have had only one realization in my life and it does indeed give one a knowing beyond knowing. And it cannot be shared to the ego’s frustration. This is why I believe Jesus and a Buddha has had little success sharing their “realizations” or their knowing beyond knowing intelligence.
It appears to me that these discussions are based in the intellectual realm not the knowing beyond knowing realm of intelligence. I have no desire to debate what I had my realization on but I do with my research as it is in the intellectual realm.
My definition of enlightenment is a realization that one is eternal. Those are very profound realizations and there are days I would love to trade my realization on something I call understanding variation as it applies to the relative phenomenal world with the realization that I am eternal.
My success at teaching and sharing my realization on variation as it applies to leadership and success in making quality products was minimal. Of course *W Edwards Deming spent 50 years teaching American corporations the relationship of variation and competitive position also failed. The big three automakers are living proof of that.
Now what does having knowledge of variation have to do with spiritually? I.e. everything as all variation of thought has degrees of unawareness within it. Without variation of thought there is no phenomena. No phenomena no expression of infinite oneness. I.e. no us. Unawareness is at the very heart of the creation and manifestation of unique souls.
* Deming called his teachings profound knowledge. It has been rejected by most of America’s educational systems, corporations, Wall Street, and indeed much of the world. I.e. Toyota may be the exception.
Posted by: william | June 29, 2009 at 11:25 AM
So you are assuming everyone goes to what you define as heaven when they die? - realpc
-------------------------------------------
Everyone becomes instantly enlightened when they enter the light. It's a holographic universe thing. In a holographic universe everything is infinitely connected to everything else, everything interpenetrates everything, and each piece contains the whole. That's why near death experiencers routinely say that they had "all knowledge," and during the Life Review experiencers say that they felt like they became the other person, felt their emotions, knew their thoughts, etc. The Life Review is a holographic experience par excellance.
"At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously." - http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html
Posted by: Art | June 29, 2009 at 03:42 PM
Yes there may be an enlightenment experience, but isn't there also a phase of being purged of the previous life, or some kind of arduous process the soul has to endure?
Every religious or mystical tradition I ever heard of, except modern New Age and Spiritualism, had negative aspects.
Posted by: realpc | June 29, 2009 at 04:50 PM
The Life Review is a not "the judgement" but just another learning experience. You become the other person and learn what it felt like to be them. It's the ultimate "You reap what you sow." "Judge not that you be not judged, for in each measure that you judge, you shall be judged in return." Has a real holographic flavor to it doesn't it?
Posted by: Art | June 29, 2009 at 09:00 PM
"Every religious or mystical tradition I ever heard of, except modern New Age and Spiritualism, had negative aspects."
There are negative aspects to Spiritualism. "Earthbound" spirits can remain trapped in a sort of netherworld between this life and the next. Evil spirits can endure hellish dimensions for some untold period of time (or timelessness). Even "good" spirits are said to face further challenges, either through reincarnation or through advancement to higher planes.
The "heavenly" dimension, as presented by Spiritualism, is a temporary resting place, not a final destination. It's a place in which the exhausted spirit gets some much-needed R & R, and learns some new lessons, before being subjected to the rigors of further growth.
A purportedly channeled book called "Testimony of Light," by Helen Greaves, presents these issues very well, I think.
Near-death experiences also include some negative cases called "hellish NDEs." The number of these cases is disputed, but it seems clear that some NDErs have a bad trip.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | June 29, 2009 at 10:33 PM
“Even "good" spirits are said to face further challenges, either through reincarnation or through advancement to higher planes.”
I wonder if life is not about the challenges. What would life be like without the discoveries, the creative process, and the shared love and compassion? If we just had pure awareness what would we be aware of?
The Buddhist nothingness or emptiness is not that attractive to most people. It appears to me that expression relies on the process of discoveries, creation, and shared love and compassion. And all of these attributes of life as we know it depends on phenomena and those phenomena depend on a relative world or worlds.
Even sitting on a cloud listening or playing a harp requires a relative phenomenal experience.
“The number of these cases is disputed, but it seems clear that some NDErs have a bad trip.”
It appears that most if not all of these bad trips are self-inflicted. I.e. if we think we deserve hell we get what we think we deserve. Now how about a person that demonstrated little love or compassion in this life; they might not see a need to self inflict a hellish condition but they may just go to a place that has others around them just like them. I.e. as like attracts like; it would be an unloving and lonely place.
I have also read that there are advanced spirits that are willing to help those in a hellish place to assist them to move to a higher level of existence if they are willing to change their outlook about themselves and others.
“The "heavenly" dimension, as presented by Spiritualism, is a temporary resting place, not a final destination. It's a place in which the exhausted spirit gets some much-needed R & R, and learns some new lessons, before being subjected to the rigors of further growth.”
This is why I suspect a soul might look at another life on earth different than we do now as we have or are now struggling and often suffering the hardships of life. To an eternal soul one life on earth may be just looked as a temporal thing especially after a long R & R. We send soldiers on R & R to help them better cope with the rigors of war and military life.
The suffering we remember in a past life may be just memories and we tend to forget much of our past suffering. Also maybe a soul on the other side can see better the lessons learned from the struggles of life.
I have read in many areas of my research that a mature soul wants to advance, as they are able to see or be told and maybe even experience for a short period of time that soul growth can lead to a more blissful world or dimension. I.e. like attracts like. The higher the vibration level the higher the dimension we reside in.
The process of life is the expression of the Infinite. We are living proof of that expression.
Posted by: william | June 30, 2009 at 01:27 AM
I'm not sure how reincarnation works, but stories like the one in this link:
http://www.fox8.com/wjw-reincarnation-txt%2C0%2C1190900.story
definitely help convince me of its reality.
Posted by: Sojourner | July 03, 2009 at 06:31 AM