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I see this as a break through in spirit communication techniques. It is the patient who has the experience not the facilitator. And, anyone can be trained to be a facilitator.

When you go to a medium, the medium has to have a lot of training and must have special innate characteristics to do the mediumship and then you still don't get to see the spirits, it is the medium who does.

I think it is also telling that this did not come out of a parapsychology lab.

It is exactly this type of discovery - something that helps the ordinary person to experience psi without a mystical intermediary that will expand belief in psi and the afterlife.

I agree, Michael. I think IADCs are one of the most exciting developments of recent time.

What I find interesting also will be to see how the medical community at large looks at IADCs. Will potential spiritual implications make them resisitant even in the face of many successes?

Thanks for the post, Michael.

I have a copy of that book, but I haven't gotten the time to read it.

One of the authors is Craig Hogan. His lastest book is "Your Eternal Self", an excellent book on consciousness and afterlife.

Is there some reason everyone can't learn the procedure? I understand that an untrained person shouldn't play psychotherapist but why can't they learn to help themself?

"Is there some reason everyone can't learn the procedure? "

I read the book, and I think anyone could learn it. But they only teach therapists who have already had EMDR training.

It was mentioned that performing EMDR without training or the neccessary qualifications could have a very negative impact on patients.

In a metaphorical sense, EMDR helps to unlock doors in the mind so you need someone responsible in charge of that.

When you get EMDR training I don't believe they give you a test to make sure you are the type of person who will handle the power ethically. Same for IADC. I've known a few psychologists socially and I wouldn't trust any of them with my personal problems. They obvioiusly went into the field to look for solutions to their own problems and handn't found any. I would feel much safer letting the nice lady who checks out my groceries at the supermarket give me EMDR or IADC than I would any of the psychologist I've known.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but, I went thru the IADC process with one of the author's top recommended psychologists.

I was in a deep state of grief following the death of my father. The IADC process consisted of a series of back and forth eye movements. They ask you to think strongly of your loved one prior to the process, and then, after the eye movements ask "what do you see?" Well I could "see" my father in my mind's eye. Very much an imaginative experience, just like I could see him right now as I write this. To tell the truth, I was extemely disappointed and left the office feeling Life After Death to be LESS likely. Luckily for me, my mother had a dramatic afterdeath experience with my father at home, which served to offset the IADC negativity. I am sorry to say,this process will not turn out to be the "be all end all" of life after death research, and may end up causing more harm than help.

I felt a little suspect about this process, even before reading Greg's post.

It sounds to me like a state of hypnotic suggestion is occurring. Combine this with a patient's state of grieving, and you have an experience without objectivity.

I'm interested to see what verifiable information has been recovered from IADCs. Otherwise, you can't pass this off as afterlife evidence. And, trying to use it as a real area of evidence may indeed hurt the subject more than help.

It would be more worthwhile to focus time and effort on induced OBEs, like at the Monroe Institute. At best, the IADC may sometimes create an OBE when certain channels are dimmed in the brain, allowing extra-wordly perception to occur.

"I'm interested to see what verifiable information has been recovered from IADCs."

A few examples are given in the book.

Also, some IADCs are shared experiences, in which someone besides the patient sees the same things. Both write down their experience (separately), and then their notes are compared. This indicates that something more than a private hallicination is going on.

"It would be more worthwhile to focus time and effort on induced OBEs, like at the Monroe Institute."

Well, that's what makes horse races. Monroe's OBEs have always struck me as among the weakest evidence for psi. I wrote about them here:

http://snipurl.com/j7ode

Though he claims to have obtained some verifiable info, many of his experiences are weirdly dreamlike and hallucinatory. I give some examples in the linked post.

"Very much an imaginative experience, just like I could see him right now as I write this."

To me, it sounds like you didn't have an IADC. It works about 70% of the time. When it doesn't work, it may be because the therapist didn't go deep enough, or because you were unconsciously trying to force the experience to meet preconceived expectations. (Those of us who've done a lot of reading on the afterlife are sadly vulnerable on this point.)

Botkin and Hogan's book gives many examples of patients whose initial experience was unsatisfactory, but who obtained excellent results when the induction was repeated. But there are also the 30% who don't get results at all.

I commend you for trying it, though, and I appreciate your sharing the results.

"Those of us who've done a lot of reading on the afterlife are sadly vulnerable on this point."

I am certainly one of those and I was "anticipating" somewhat, but the actual result was, as I said, very disappointing. Botkin would have a hard time convincing me that his results are anything other than fantasy at this point. I also believe other areas (ADC, mediums,NDE even ITC) to be much more fruitful for research. The IADC process is too ripe for delusion.

"I commend you for trying it, though, and I appreciate your sharing the results."

Thanks Michael.


"Botkin would have a hard time convincing me that his results are anything other than fantasy at this point."

At least as he tells it, his patients don't have to be convinced by him. They (mostly) insist that the experience was real, and unlike any dream or imaginative experience they've had.

What you're describing sounds like the cases he reports of patients who did not have an IADC (at least initially). They typically reported something that was more like a dream or imagination, and not very convincing. Botkin's response was to try again, and to ask them not to try to shape the experience, but just let it happen. (I think I would find this difficult to do, which is why I would be a poor candidate for this therapy.)

I don't know if you want to answer this, but I'd be curious to know if Dr. Botkin was the therapist who treated you. If it wasn't Botkin, was it someone listed on his Web site as an approved IADC therapist?

Since your experiences with a therapist are private, feel free to ignore these questions.

"I don't know if you want to answer this, but I'd be curious to know if Dr. Botkin was the therapist who treated you. If it wasn't Botkin, was it someone listed on his Web site as an approved IADC therapist?"


Michael

It was not Botkin, although I spoke with him directly. At the time he was just getting involved (2001) with a veterans project, probably related to the book that you read. He recommended a therapist he described as "one of the best" at performing the procedure.

I must say, it is a little disturbing to hear that a treatment failure is the patients "fault" rather than the procedure, although I realize that we are on the cutting edge of psychology here. Again, don't get your hopes up about this one, Michael.


Greg

"I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but, I went thru the IADC process with one of the author's top recommended psychologists."

Botkin is pretty clear in the book that it doesn't work for every one.

"Well, that's what makes horse races. Monroe's OBEs have always struck me as among the weakest evidence for psi."

Six Studies of Out-of-the-Body Experiences
Charles T. Tart
(1997, Journal of Near Death Studies.)

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/ctt_articles2.cfm?id=50

There are some veridical results but not what you would expect based on how real they seem to the experiencers.

“I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but, I went thru the IADC process with one of the author's top recommended psychologists.”

This is very often the case when someone tries to teach others their knowledge. There are I suspect many factors involved in attainting “success or lack of” with this process. You may be one of the 30% that was unable to achieve such results or his recommended psychologist was not as skilled in this process.

Look how successful Jesus and Buddha were in passing down their understanding to a level of understanding for the masses. We may be able to teach knowledge of our process but life-changing understanding appears to come from some type of instant realization after a revelation.

Also I am suspicious when someone is in grief. Their grief may overwhelm their ability to properly evaluate what they are experiencing.

I also noticed the same thing with Newton the author of journey of souls where he used between life hypnosis and what appears to be his limited success at teaching other therapists his understanding of his technique. My limited research revealed to me that his students did not appear to be able to get the profound results he claimed to have achieved.

This is why I think the scientific method where duplication of results by others may not be as effective with the paranormal as with the physical world. A medium’s success appears to be influenced even by the sitters and sometimes atmospheric conditions. Of course some aspects of the scientific method may be valuable for paranormal research.

Hello Michael, et alia,

I’m Craig Hogan, co-author of Induced After-Death Communication with Al Botkin.

I’ve read with great interest the posts about IADCs.

Thanks for the thumbs up, Jime.

One post was, “It sounds to me like a state of hypnotic suggestion is occurring.

I’m a National Guild of Hypnotists certified hypnotist. EMDR isn’t hypnotism. However, when someone shuts down the physical realm through a near-death experience, meditation, hypnotic trance, or EMDR, the mind becomes open to the underlying reality that is at the base of all consciousness. There, the mind is freed from the shackles of the physical realm to access knowledge about the past, present, and future, in any location on the planet. And there, the mind can interact with those who are in the realm we call the afterlife.

And so, in hypnotism and EMDR, while the mode of transportation is different, the destination is the same.

I’ve also successfully hypnotized a group of people and had them experience after death communications individually. Some descriptions sounded more like wonderful imagination. However, a number were emotional reunions the experencers insisted were real communications.

I think we can get too preoccupied with what is a “genuine” after-death communication. When we realize that after-death communication is possible and common, then we can enjoy the experience of recalling a memory and the experience of communicating with those on the other side, both in the same theater of our minds, gliding our eyes back and forth between the scenes, without stopping with folded arms and a stern stare of doubt that stifles our enjoyment of the moment and interferes with any communication that might have occurred.

Besides, since we know the mind is not in the brain, imagination, memory, psychic knowing, and mediumship all become varieties of the same act of looking through the window into the greater reality.

Another post was, “I read the book, and I think anyone could learn it. But they only teach therapists who have already had EMDR training.”

The problem with just anyone using EMDR is that EMDR, in some unknown way, breaks down the walls in the mind that have been built since childhood. Behind those walls are all the knowledge and experiences a person has accumulated in a lifetime. The doors are open to most of the rooms, so the person can recall what’s in them at will, but some rooms have been locked since childhood because what’s in them is too terrifying for the person. They may contain memories of childhood abuse or other trauma.

EMDR wrenches the doors off their hinges indiscriminately, and whatever traumas there are behind them will come barging into the living spaces of the conscious mind. There, they can cause great harm as the person relives the trauma that had been repressed for decades. If a trained psychotherapist is there, he or she can use EMDR to itself reduce the trauma. But that requires the training in managing the sudden re-traumatizing the person experiences.

However, I’m convinced that both hypnotism and the eye-movement protocol can be used safely so anyone can self-induce after-death communication. We’re working with them now, in addition to eight other methods of after-death communication (http://www.spiritualunderstanding.org).

Another post was, “To tell the truth, I was extremely disappointed and left the office feeling Life After Death to be LESS likely. Luckily for me, my mother had a dramatic after-death experience with my father at home, which served to offset the IADC negativity.”

I’m sorry you didn’t have the experience you had hoped for. Yes, around 70% of those going through the IADC process do have an experience that ranges from a warm sense of the presence of the loved one through a conversation, seeing them, and even hugging them. 30% have no experience or one they believe is just memory or imagination.

But I’m very pleased that your mother had a dramatic after-death experience. Perhaps that was a communication for you as well. Don’t give up on communicating with those in the afterlife because one path you took didn’t arrive where you wanted it to. We’re not completely in charge of what happens in these experiences, and it certainly isn’t the person’s fault if he or she doesn’t have one. It also isn’t that the person on the other side of life isn’t willing to come through. There are forces at work that are much more profound and inscrutable than we can realize. Some people wait years for an experience of any kind that eventually comes in a surprising way, while others have it unbidden at the moment of the person’s death even though they’re hundreds of miles away without a thought about the newly deceased.

What’s important is that we not shut down our communication. They on the other side want it as badly as we do, even if it seems to be one way for a while. And they’re disappointed when we stop communicating. Try other ways of connecting and be patient and childlike in openness.

Another post: “I felt a little suspect about this process, even before reading Greg's post.”

Michael’s comments are insightful about what’s described in the book. Among his comments, he wrote that we have examples of cases in which someone learned things he or she couldn’t have known that were later verified. And the shared IADC experiences are simply mind boggling. We haven’t done any further research on them yet, but it’s clear that when we sit in our seats for these performances, what we witness is often completely unexpected and far beyond anything our imaginations could conjure up.

However, most evidential about the validity of the experience is the fact that nearly all of those experiencing an IADC assert that it was not imagination; they insist they had a real communication with their deceased loved one. That’s important, eye-witness testimony. And as we’ve learned from studying near-death experiences, deathbed visitations, and other similar phenomena, no form of hallucination, fantasy, or drug-induced altered consciousness matches these experiences. Many of the experiencers are physicians, scientists, lawyers, accountants, law-enforcement officials, and other careful observers who aren’t prone to accept an experience as being real if it isn’t. Many go into it skeptical but are convinced by the experience; some afterward are still doubtful that it was a real after-death communication, but are nonetheless healed of their grief.

The burgeoning literature, from 1848 through today related to the afterlife and after-death communication, includes data about the phenomena from a variety of sources: mediums, near-death experiences, deathbed visitations, spontaneous after-death communication, electronic voice phenomena, and studies such as those done at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, University of Arizona, Princeton, Stanford, and the Windbridge Institute. It’s no longer New Agers and mystics making assertion about the afterlife and after-death communication. Today, it’s psychologists, physicians, neuroscientists, physicists, and a broad range of other researchers. When we bring together all the data from all the sources, they enrich and inform each other. As a result, we’re boldly moving forward in our understanding, discovering and rediscovering methods of after-death communication that yield wonderful results.

For your interest, Al just trained 25 psychotherapists in Germany and they all had great IADCs with each other at the end of training. There are now trained psychotherapists in the USA, Germany, Canada, England, Columbia, South America, Korea, Austria, and Spain. The book is being translated into German.

Love and peace, Craig Hogan

r.craig.hogan@greaterreality.com

Thanks very much for that fascinating comment, Craig. I'm especially glad to hear that IADC training has reached so many countries around the world.

Greg wrote, "I must say, it is a little disturbing to hear that a treatment failure is the patient's 'fault' rather than the procedure."

I wasn't assigning blame; it just seems to be a fact that some patients have more success with the treatment than others. Probably no treatment works for everybody. Even pharmacological therapies vary in their effectiveness from patient to patient.

"Luckily for me, my mother had a dramatic afterdeath experience with my father at home, which served to offset the IADC negativity."


-And I am suffering the same way GregL wrote about, right now...half of my family disappeared off the face of the earth and I don't know anything. If you don't want to, that's ok, but if you were willing, it might do me a lot of good to read about what happened to your mom with your dad, GregL. I hope you would consider writing it for this benefit, but if you don't want to, that's ok.

"Look how successful Jesus and Buddha were in passing down their understanding to a level of understanding for the masses."

Buddha preached that there was a way to stop Karma (a myth) from influencing one's life, and this was to ignore all emotions and wishes.


• The neglecting of all desires - indifferentism
• centered on yourself
• Incommunication with all beings
• Miracles are useless - people suffer because of their past actions


As you see, Buddhism preaches indifferentism. Helping other people physically is useless, you won't be able to have compassion for others, because compassion is a feeling you have to get rid of, to attain Nirvana.

It seems to me that Buddha was VERY effective in getting his philosophy to the masses. I know many people who are very much centered on themselves and oblivious to anyone else's hardship. Don't know any like this? Just step out your door and talk to people, or turn on the news and see what's happening. It seems he was far more successful than Jesus Christ was.

"but if you were willing, it might do me a lot of good to read about what happened to your mom with your dad, GregL. I hope you would consider writing it for this benefit, but if you don't want to, that's ok."

Dale,

You have my deepest symapthy, I do know what you are going thru. My father appeared twice to my mother. I hope other readers can bear with me on this divergence from the topic at hand.

The first time he appeared was in broad daylight, in the middle of the afternoon. She had just thrown out the garbage and had returned to the house. As she walked thru the kitchen, she saw him standing in the middle of the dining room, looking at her with his hand held out to her. He was fully three dimensional, as if he was physically there. She called out his name and took a step towards him, and he disappeared.

The second time she was sleeping and was awakened by what she thought was someone tampering with the front door. She was terrified and got out of bed peering at the front door from her bedroom. The door was silent. However, she turned to look toward the living room where my dad's old granfather clock hung. He was there, apparently fiddling with the clock. He turned to look at her, first appearing his full 77 years, then his age dropped off and he transformed to his handsome (he looked like Errol Flynn)30 year old self. He spoke her name and vanished. Later my brother mentioned to me that his fiddling with the clock and getting younger was possibly a "coded" message, sort of "I can turn back time." I believe it, and this type of coded message is beyond my mother.

Dale, I am very much a "left brained" individual, but I have learned that this universe of ours offers much more promise, and hope, than is apparent to us in times of tragedy. There is every reason to believe that you will see your family again.

Greg

Thank you Dale, for telling this story and for writing something hopeful about seeing thema again, I'm going to keep it and read it when I need to. I don't know if they're ok somehow, I don't know if I'll ever see them again. I don't really know what they point of anything is, if they're not ok and if I never see them again. Most of the time I don't really know what I will do.

Sorry, I meant thank you Greg.

Hello Greg and Dale,

Oh yes, there's no doubt about the fact that we will all see our loved ones at the marvelous reunion we'll have. There's a mass of literature now demonstrating the reality and nature of the afterlife. When you delve into it, you simply can't not be convinced of it.

The change in age you experienced, Greg, is very evidential, since your mother and you didn't realize what was going on. It was a message. Those on the next plane of life have bodies just as we do, solid and functioning. They walk through fields with birds singing across brooks at the foot of mountains. The scenery is quite familiar, but much more wonderful than on Earth. They live in houses and attend concerts in great amphitheaters. Their lives in the planes close to the Earth plane are just the same as the Earth, but with none of the negatives, such as ticks, mosquitoes, violence, and pain.

In all of the literature, from induced after-death communications, physical mediums, mental mediums, spontaneous after-death communications, and all the rest, the deceased appear as being in their prime, usually 20s or 30s. Your mother's vision was of your father when he was on Earth at first, then as he is now. He was saying that it really was him appearing at 77 years of age, but showing that he now is healthy, youthful, and full of joy. Since she couldn't know that, it's very evidential of his continued life because it fits what we know to be true.

I do wish I could help anyone interested learn about the reality of the afterlife. There's no reason for anyone to have any doubt any more. If you want to contact me directly, do so at r.craig.hogan@greaterreality.com. If you want to read my book, Your Eternal Self, go to http://ebook.youreternalself.com, user name eternal (lowercase) and password self (lowercase). It contains the evidence that the mind isn't in the brain and we're eternal beings having a physical experience. Humankind just has to learn (or relearn) that truth.

Love and peace, Craig


"...Botkin's groundbreaking work suggests that in the future the line between life and afterlife maybe crossed almost at will. "
There have been quite a few suggestions( in the last 100 years or so) that there will be more contact with people in the after life.
But this does not seem to have occurred.
IIRC it was in one of Doyle's books that someone speaking from the other side said (in effect) that it was so beautiful in the after life that if we knew about it we would all want to come over, and , if we did,this would be shirking our responsibilities in this life."This vale of tears"

"... there's no doubt about the fact that we will all see our loved ones at the marvelous reunion we'll have. There's a mass of literature now demonstrating the reality and nature of the afterlife. When you delve into it, you simply can't not be convinced of it."

I wouldn't put it quite so strongly, myself. I would say that some of the evidence is exceptionally good, and much better than most people realize, but there's always room for doubt. Perhaps it's just my natural caution (or pessimism!) at work, but I get a bit nervous when I hear statements of absolute assurance on a subject that doesn't seem susceptible of absolute proof.

The way I look at it, there's more than enough evidence to justify a belief in life after death, should one be inclined in that direction. But the evidence, while highly suggestive, doesn't compel us inexorably to that conclusion. There are enough anomalies and inconsistencies in the evidence to leave room for doubt.

As an example, when we look at mediumship we can find some startling cases, like the R-101 case, that seem remarkably convincing. But then we read about fraudulent mediums, or apparently genuine mediums who gave some inaccurate information, or disagreements among mediums on vital topics like reincarnation and Christianity. While none of this is enough to erase the best evidence, it does create some doubt about what is actually going on.

Perhaps the reality of an afterlife can be established by "a preponderance of the evidence," but not proven "beyond reasonable doubt."

As a personal matter, I do strongly suspect there is life after death, but I'm not 100% certain of it. Then again, I'm not 100% certain of much of anything ...

Hello Jack,

We're actually refining an increasingly long list of methods of after-death communication, and the communication is becoming easier. You can see a list of the methods at http://spiritualunderstanding.org. A number of them are self-experienced rather than requiring a medium, such as the psychomanteum, hypnotism, and induced after-death communication. The psychomanteum is mirror gazing by the individual. Like induced after-death communication, it has around a 70% success rate.

Some of the most exciting work is being done by Mark Macy, Sonia Rinaldi, and others in electronic voice phenomena or instrumental transcommunication. The phone calls from the dead are the most interesting. Google Mark Macy or D. Scott Rogo.

As more researchers become involved, we're breaking new ground every year.

Concerning suicide to get to the wonderful afterlife, we did consider that in our book, and others have repeated the same conclusion. If you know the reality of the afterlife, you will have the understanding to realize that this life is important, and the struggles are part of the Earth experience. Knowing the reality of the afterlife makes this life richer, more worthwhile, and more understandable even in the face of struggle and tragedy. You don't want to commit suicide to get to the next life.

Love and peace, Craig

"Some of the most exciting work is being done by Mark Macy, Sonia Rinaldi, and others in electronic voice phenomena ..."

I have serious doubts about Mark Macy's work, which I discussed here:

http://snipurl.com/javlo

The Macy-related material begins with the paragraph that starts, "Fisher wasn't the only person ..." nearly halfway down the page.

What bothers me about Macy is not just that his "ITC communications" mirrored the plot of a sci-fi novel, but that he and his associate were blithely unconcerned about this fact even when apprised of it.

Another problematic ITC claim was discussed here:

http://snipurl.com/javxq

In this case, Macy and company seem to have been taken in by an obviously fraudulent photo.

I would not put any credence in Mark Macy's claims.

Sorry to be so negative, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em ...

"As a personal matter, I do strongly suspect there is life after death, but I'm not 100% certain of it."

I recently blogged about Mrs. Piper and Richard Hodgson's report on her mediumship to the Society for Psychical Research. His report gives very strong evidence for survival based on the fact that variation in communication varies with the spirit not the sitters. For example, spirits are always confused for a few days after death. Hodgson also explains various situations that explains why a communicator may have difficulites communicating leading to incorrect information coming through the medium.

I've read a lot of the evidence for the afterlife and Hodgson's report is very strong evidence. The original report to the SPR is available to read on line or download at google books. The link is on my blog:

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2009/05/further-record-of-observations-of.html

"I would not put any credence in Mark Macy's claims. Sorry to be so negative, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em ..."

I'll pile on here. Quite a while ago (around 1995 or so) I had a telephone conversation with Mark Macy. At the time I advised him of the fact that his whole "Riverworld" theory followed exactly the plot of the famous Sci Fi trilogy "Riverworld" by Jose Phillpe Farmer.
I also told him that some of the pictures of the communicators looked exactly like the people who were purportedly receiving them. Mr. Macy informed me that Farmer was probably telepathically receiving true knowledge about the "real" afterdeath world (I think it was called "Marduk") and that the person communicating was the twin of the Earthside reciever! Another picture depicted a guy wrapped in gauze who called himself the technician. I wish I was kidding here.

I truly do not believe Mr Macy to be a fraud. He did however, seem to display some extreme naivete and may very well have been fooled himself. A very sincere man,by the way and I don't mean to denigrate him unfairly. He is currently getting some interesting photographic results with something called an "Illuminator."

The whole ITC debacle of the late 90's made me very leery of big claims of the proof of an afterlife, although I still believe that ITC, in the right hands, can be a valid avenue of research.

"... his whole 'Riverworld' theory followed exactly the plot of the famous Sci Fi trilogy 'Riverworld' by Philip Jose Farmer."

Yes. I pointed out the same thing a few years later, and he and his associate (whose name I forget) both said they saw no problem with the obvious similarities. (As one example, the hero of the first Riverworld book is Richard Francis Burton, the 19th century explorer; the same Burton was supposedly the lead communicator behind the ITC messages.)

Macy's attitude struck me as very naive, especially considering that there was no attempt at independently verifying the Riverworld-like transmissions. No outside experts were brought in, for fear that their skepticism might affect the atmosphere of trust needed to get results. Therefore, there was never any third-party confirmation of the alleged messages.

"I also told him that some of the pictures of the communicators looked exactly like the people who were purportedly receiving them.... Mr. Macy informed me that ... the person communicating was the twin of the Earthside receiver!"

I hadn't heard that one! It doesn't exactly fill us with confidence, does it?

"He is currently getting some interesting photographic results with something called an 'Illuminator.' "

I haven't studied the Illuminator photos, but I do know the project is facing a crisis because the device uses Polaroid film, which is no longer being manufactured.

Hey Greg,

Yeah, I remember some of those exchanges on Macy's old forums. He's at it again with the Marduk theory with a new book he's releasing called "The Project".

My opinion? ITC is not implausible due to the fact I feel strongly that EVP is a very real phenomenon, and ITC is a close cousin. I don't even think it's impossible that Raudive really made those phone-calls. I listened to them, Raudive speaks very rationally. I draw the line at the "angelic" visitors who start talking about Marduk.

Apparently Marduk was another planet in our solar system millions of years ago where humans originated. But we blew Marduk up for some reason, and were left to recolonize Earth. There are so many holes in this theory it's not even funny.

I'm sensing he's taken small pieces of real evidence and blown them up, and has even been fooled by other people he worked with who became over-excited and fabricated evidence for attention-seeking purposes, possibly knowing Macy would eat it up.

When supernatural phenomena is really happening around you, it changes your worldview so radically, so quickly, that I think it can sometimes lead to unusual behavior and lapses of logic.

I felt this way when I saw a massive UFO in 1997. For a while, I started questioning the reality of everything around me. I can only imagine what receiving a phone-call from a dead person can do to you.


"I hadn't heard that one! It doesn't exactly fill us with confidence, does it?"

Does the name Maggy Harsch Fischback bring back any memories? She was one of Mark Macy's main sources of photographic evidence, providing "afterdeath" pictures of someone who looked suspiciously like herself.

"My opinion? ITC is not implausible due to the fact I feel strongly that EVP is a very real phenomenon, and ITC is a close cousin"

I feel exactly the same way. I have even caught a few good EVP snippets myself while walking some St Augustine "haunts" one night.


"Does the name Maggy Harsch Fischback bring back any memories?"

Yes, indeed. I didn't realize that the "afterdeath" pix resembled her. If I recall correctly, the Fischbacks reported a dazzling variety of ITC messages of all kinds, but refused to allow anyone to monitor their activities.

I agree that some EVP/ITC is probably legit. Maybe a lot of it is. And there may even be something to the idea of "phone calls from the dead" (Scott Rogo and Raymond Bayless once put out a book with that title). The bestselling author Dean Koontz reportedly had a phone call from someone who sounded just like his deceased mother; the voice warned him to "be careful," or some words to that effect. A few hours later, Koontz's father (who was living with him and was mentally ill) attacked him with a kitchen knife.

In an online chat Koontz biographer Katherine Ramsland said:

"What was really odd was that he received an odd phone call from a woman who simply told him to be careful. And she said it several times and then faded away. He swore the voice was that of his mother, who had been dead for decades. That same afternoon his father tried to kill him. That same kind of phone call was in one of his books (THE MASK, 1981) years before that happened to him. When I read that I called Dean and asked him if he had redone the book to include the phone call, and he hadn't. Spooky."

http://snipurl.com/jbjl4

Whether the Raudive call is genuine, I don't know. I seem to recall Macy saying he never actually heard Raudive's voice while Raudive was alive. If that's true, it would have been easy for some trickster to call Macy and pretend to be Raudive. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I wouldn't rule it out.

“because compassion is a feeling you have to get rid of, to attain Nirvana.”

From my point of view only mine now but compassion is not a feeling but rather an understanding. And the Buddha out of compassion taught how to reduce or even eliminate suffering for over 50 years.

But I do agree to attain what I call pure awareness compassion must be replaced by awareness. I.e. perfect awareness. Compassion is a rare phenomenon on planet earth. Most of us demonstrate sympathy and empathy.

A soul has a very long journey before it reaches what the Buddhists call nirvana. There appears to be several realms or dimensions a soul journeys though before nirvana is realized.

“It seems to me that Buddha was VERY effective in getting his philosophy to the masses”

I think Buddhism is behind Islam, Christian and Hindu religions in followers. It is a profound religion but the Buddhists teachings that we do not have a soul do not cross validate with my research. We indeed appear to have a soul that lives in these lower realms of existence that appears to others much like our former physical body. I.e. astral body.

“It seems he was far more successful than Jesus Christ was.”

It appears to me that his message has been much more accurately taught than Christianity. Many state that Christianity died on the cross. The sacrifice paradigm has in my opinion kept Christianity at a kindergarten level. In fact one day I heard a kindergartener challenge the need for sacrifice for our sins paradigm.

The Buddha did realize that the origin of suffering is ignorance. And some of the foremost symptoms of that ignorance are attachment, craving, grasping, and misguided desires.

Is there anyone who thinks they would be able to take a look at what people call an out of body experience, that happened to me, and try to answer two questions that I have about it?

If there is, I would post parts of it, and then write what my two questions are. What happened is virtually identical to a near death experience...I saw myself from up at the ceiling and I was completely "aware" and functioning...even turning to look side to side...it was as "real" as me typing this. But, there are two things that I have a problem with...and those are the two questions that I would ask.

I'm not asking this, or wanting to write about it, for the sake of entertainment, I'm serious.

" Most of us demonstrate sympathy and empathy."

-We do? What do we do about other people's problems or people who starve?


"And the Buddha out of compassion taught how to reduce or even eliminate suffering for over 50 years."

-Yes, by teaching to be indifferent to everyone and everything...some help and "teaching".


"I think Buddhism is behind Islam, Christian and Hindu religions in followers."

-Except this isn't at all what I was talking about. Just take a look at how many people are totally absorbed in THEIR OWN little world and not interested in anything else. Seems that most people practise Buddha's "wisdom" of indifference without even knowing they're doing it.

Hey Ryan, sure toss me an e-mail to Cyrusk4@gmail.com and I can provide you some feedback.

>The bestselling author Dean Koontz >reportedly had a phone call from someone who >sounded just like his deceased mother; the >voice warned him to "be careful," or some >words to that effect.

Right, I don't feel this is so hard to swallow, primarily because EVP suggests (or even proves) a technological link can exist.

You know what frustrates me is what if Macy really had experienced some genuine evidence, such as a supernatural phone-call, and then somebody (this Fischback character?) decided to pollute it by photoshopping ITC images and feeding Macy elaborate works of fiction? If something like a phone-call from the other-side is possible, isn't this outstanding enough? Why twist and fabricate things, potentially ruining the real evidence in the process?

No afterlife intelligence would come through and start babbling all these wild, crazy ideas about second-Earths, aliens, and other grand tales (whether true or not). My impression is that when people from the other side to communicate, they want to be taken seriously and they don't have the time or the intention to say things which would only discredit them.

“We do? What do we do about other people's problems or people who starve?”

Good point here is what I intended to state. Rather than compassion we humans sometimes tend to demonstrate sympathy and empathy and mistakenly call it compassion.

“Yes, by teaching to be indifferent to everyone and everything”

In my view this is a very misleading statement. One might state that Buddhism teaches indifference to worldly things but my take on the Buddha is that he taught compassion not indifference to others.

“Seems that most people practise Buddha's "wisdom" of indifference without even knowing they're doing it.”

From my point of view indifference towards others is neither love nor intelligence. Now indifference towards politics and economic ideologies etc may be valid teachings.

“No afterlife intelligence would come through and start babbling all these wild, crazy ideas about second-Earths, aliens, and other grand tales (whether true or not).”

Could it be from mischievous spirits.

I recently blogged about Mrs. Piper and Richard Hodgson's report on her mediumship to the Society for Psychical Research. His report gives very strong evidence for survival based on the fact that variation in communication varies with the spirit not the sitters.

About Hodgson and Piper I think you should read this:

http://www.4shared.com/file/91590466/d2fcb47/JSPR_62_1997-1998.html

The original records are mainly interesting as a way of seeing how Hodgson used them in preparing the 1897 report. At the most important sitting, for example, that at which 'G.P.' made its first appearance (22nd March 1892), Hodgson concealed that he was not present for some 24 minutes, during the one-fourth of the sitting that included the unprecedented spelling of names of several absent friends and of Pellew." 33 He insists [pp.296, 298] that he made the notes when, in fact, Heard did so.34

The notes are also woefully incomplete, those of the seven 'G.P.' sittings in the spring of 1892 being only 20% the length of those made stenographically in the fall. Nor can the longer stenographic notes be said to be reliably complete. It is not possible for a single stenographer to record the words of the multi-party conversations that often prevailed when more than one sitter was present, nor even to be accurate when just a sitter and the control talked simultaneously.35 Hodgson therefore had at his disposal a fraction of what was said at the sittings.

The articles are:

a) RICHARD HODGSON, MRS PIPER AND 'GEORGE PELHAM': A CENTENNIAL REASSESSMENT by JAMES MUNVES

b)CORRESPONDE at pages 282-283 by Ian Stevenson

c)CORRESPONDENCE ate page 467 by JAMES MUNVENS.

Best wishes.

Perhaps it's just my natural caution (or pessimism!) at work, but I get a bit nervous when I hear statements of absolute assurance on a subject that doesn't seem susceptible of absolute proof. ~Michael Prescott

Michael, I think this material requires a very cautious approach. Once you take that first step into a bigger universe, it is easy to get lost for a while. The possibilities are so mind-boggling; if one amazing thing is real, then can’t all sorts of things be possible? It takes a while to calm down and remember that most us are still hanging out back in that little universe.

I’ve had some anomalous experiences. And I’ll admit that I’m convinced I’ll survive. I’m not really positive about what happens after that, but I’m OK with figuring things out when I get there. That being said, I don’t expect anyone else to be convinced of survival just because I had a NDE or various other anomalous experiences. But I would be happy if experiences such as mine led people to ask questions and look for answers. I’m looking for answers. I’m also trying to exercise some caution so as not to get lost along the way.

Hi Vitor,

Are there other volumes of JSPR or PSPR on 4shared? Is there an index?

Thanks

Hi, ncu9nc

you can download these and other journals here:

http://www.lexscien.org/lexscien/index.jsp

And yes, they have an index.

Best wishes,
Vitor

here's another little piece of the puzzle....

"A SCHOOLBOY who almost hanged during his English class was re-enacting a "murder by hanging", has nightmares over the incident.

It has come as a cruel twist of fate for the boy and his family, who lost a child in a tragic accident involving an unsettled horse almost 12 months ago.

The boy's stepfather, Graham Evans, who asked that nobody else in the family be named, said the 14-year-old saw a vision of his dead sister just after he blacked out during English class at Laidley State High School on Monday.

"His sister has told him to 'Go back - it's not time yet ... you have to stay there for Mum'," Mr Evans said."

Full story can be read @:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25585097-662,00.html

Michael -

The Mark Macy stuff from your essay is truly enough - on it's own - to kill any *loose* interest or credibility I had in looking at his stuff ( I only came across it last week and had bookmarked one of his sites)

There is a video in which he highlights some of the "discoveries" made in ITC - and as I hope many who have watched it agreed - the B.S. boggle threshold is so high that you almost can't believe anyone could possibly take this stuff seriously....yet, I was still coming back for a second look. ( my own will to believe I guess is stronger than I'll acknowlegdge)

Here is my issue - and one I'm going to *guess* that you share - and many others here as well may too:

I read Craig Hogan's comments above - and - having just ordered his book - and having read how great this book is in the pantheon of literature on the afterlife - I can't help but already feel disappointed. Why? Well, an afterlife without warts - or pain - or rainy days - or anything outside of airy fairy beauty is startlingly shallow to me, and I simply don't believe that any serious researcher would buy that thinking. ( it's also continuously contravened by so much of the other stuff we regularly read here, and elsewhere)

And further.....if M. Macy's work is being referenced as the "best evidence" by those who are supposed to be holding the keys to the castle.....I'm a bit off the bus before it even starts rolling.

I don't know about you - and all due respect to comments and opinions, etc - but that emporer has no clothes, and it's a bit off putting to see how many folks are playing on that side of the street once seriously involved in this study.

Just my (disappointed) 2cents..:-)

"if M. Macy's work is being referenced as the 'best evidence' by those who are supposed to be holding the keys to the castle ..."

I don't think Macy's work is even close to the best evidence. I wouldn't really count it as evidence at all. Some of his communications may be legitimate, but the precautions against fraud are so entirely lacking that any positive results are open to doubt.

Regarding Craig Hogan's book "Your Eternal Self," I think it's a useful overview and contains a lot of interesting information. However, I felt that the book mixed good evidence with relatively weak evidence, not always drawing a distinction. I have the same problem with Victor Zammit's website, which is cited extensively as a source in "Your Eternal Self."

Even so, the book is well worth reading. And I'm aware that my past dust-ups with Victor may have prejudiced me. (Victor once described me as a "closed minded skeptic debunker ... a non-entity, a nobody, someone who is colossally ignorant ... a loser and a defeatist." It's hard to maintain perfect objectivity - or a straight face - after a tirade like that!)

I did a short review of Craig's book here:

http://snipurl.com/jg0ou

Right - I don't pay any attention to V.Z. at all - strictly because of those tirades - which, again....once you see that in print once - you sort of realize the deck is only half there - and "reasonable doubt" has already been established. ( for me anyway)

Again - as you intimate above though - a lot of reference to V.Z.'s stuff - even from someone who otherwise appears unblemished - is all I need to begin the discounting of what they have to offer - which was sort of what I meant above - after Macy's work was pointed out as the cutting edge by Craig.

Will check out your review as well - thanks..:-)

Michael, I wasn't aware of your review of Craig's book. It was very good, as always.

I think your criticism of it is correct and relevant, in the sense that some of the evidence is weak or not convincing and could casts doubts --- in some people's minds--- about the entire book; and mixing them up in a whole book could present problems to draw clear distinction about the value or weight of each piece of evidence.

Being even more charitable with Craig's book, I'd say his case should be seen as a cumulative one. Each piece by itself could be unconvincing or weak, but taken as a whole, it's convincing to support the idea that materialism is false.

But such charitable argument could be rejected by some people who believes that the weaker evidence don't support Craig's case at all. And hard-nosed materialists won't get impressed with it.

Despite of it, I think Craig's book is an excellent summary of the evidence for survival and psi; together with "21 days into the afterlife", they're excellent popular introductions to the field.

A more techcnical or sophisticated argument for psi, esp and survival would require another additional bibliography, however.

Regarding Mark Macy and ITC evidence, I have to agree that the evidence is not convincing for me. I've persoanlly known some anomalous cases apparently suggesting a paranormal origin of it, but I don't know for sure. Other plausible interpretations and alternatives are possible and even probable.

I tend to agnosticism regarding it. Perhaps I need more research on this specific field of afterlife evidence.

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