Here are some excerpts from Anne Manning Robbins' Both Sides of the Veil (1909). In this book Robbins recounts communications apparently coming from Augustus P. Martin, known to his friends as the General, through famed Boston medium Leonora Piper.
This material, in itself, is not and cannot be "evidential," since there is no way of checking it out. But in his other remarks, the General did come through with a good deal of specific, verifiable information about himself, his family, and Robbins' personal experiences. And Mrs. Piper had a first-rate track record even when tested under the most stringent conditions.
On the other hand, some of what the General says has a decidedly fairy-tale quality - pearly gates, saints in the heavens, seven celestial spheres, etc. We'll come back to this issue.
One topic that seems inadequately addressed by mediums is the actual mechanics of communication from the other side. The General goes into some detail about this. (In what follows, the words in parentheses were spoken by Robbins; words in square brackets were added by Robbins for explanation; all the other words were uttered by the medium.)
You know this is a great big telephone and I am speaking into it.
(Explain it more, will you?)
Yes, I will. The telephone is filled with ether from our world, and it is a receptacle, a vessel, and we blow into it just exactly as you would blow a bellows, the air through a bellows to an open fire, into an open fire, and then we attach a cord, an ethereal cord, to that and talk right over that cord right into the machine, and make this machine utter our thoughts.
By "the machine," he seems to mean the medium, Mrs. Piper. Elsewhere she is called the Light.
When you have a desire to speak with me — there are spirits here who know every mortal on the face of the earth; that is, the same one does not know, but the different ones know every mortal — and they say: "Here is a friend, I think she is a friend of yours; there the Light is beginning to burn, it is open; we have attached the ethereal cord and we will remove the spirit from the Light, take it to our world or out on the cord, attach the cord to the shell, as it were, fill it with our ethereal light, and you can enter into it and see if it is your friend, and if so follow Rector, follow those that are used to the cord and go to the end of it and speak over it to Rector, who is actually within the shell himself, and he will transmit your messages to your friend." It takes in all, I suppose, of your time five or ten minutes perhaps for me to reach you.
Rector was Mrs. Piper's principal spirit guide, or control, at the time.
The General also describes his experience of crossing over. What interests me about this is how closely the description dovetails, at least in certain respects, with accounts of near-death experiencers, most of which were not publicized until years or decades later.
When I first passed out my mind was cloudy, rather confused. I felt as though I was going into space, did not know where, drifting as it were, for a few hours — that was all — and then I felt as though there was a strong hand grasped me and said to me: "It is all right, it is all over." And I said: "What is over?" I could not seem to understand what it all meant, and after a little while, perhaps an hour, possibly an hour or two, I saw oh such a light ! You cannot imagine it, cannot conceive what it is like. It is the most brilliant and yet the softest moonlight that you ever saw, and I thought, what a beautiful light it was! And all of a sudden I saw people moving about. I saw their heads, their figures. Then they seemed all clad in white, and I could not seem to make them out. They were moving in the air.
And I said: "What is this place? Where am I ? What am I ? What has happened?" It was all such a puzzle to me.....
Returning to the moment of transition, he says:
... and all of a sudden I was going through this misty, cloudy way, and then I went past [possibly " fast," word not caught] until I got to this light, and it was like going up, up, up in the air, in a balloon as it were. You could not conceive of anything more strange and beautiful, in a sense — the confusion was not so beautiful, but because it was so I could not seem to retain my consciousness and could not seem to be released from the burden that hung over me, and all of a sudden, the moment I realized that this hand was on my arm, then I began to see clearly; and from that moment I have been advancing and going on, and I have seen everybody I ever knew, and I have had the happiest time you could imagine. I have a mansion all my own and live in it just the same as you live in your place there, just the same. I have walls, I have pictures, I have music, I have books, I have poetry, I have everything.
(I see.)
It is not a fac simile of that life, but that life is a miserable shadow of what this really is, and when I get strong, as I become stronger, and, — that is, more accustomed to using this line, I can tell you more clearly about it....
The passing out is really beautiful, just after you once get beyond the border, it is perfectly beautiful. You know the meaning of the word heaven? Well, it is heaven indeed. But the coming back is a little confusing at first and we have to learn.
Here's more about the moment of dying, and conditions afterward:
I felt, oh, I was so pleased to be out and away from the atmosphere, I felt so choked and so distressed for breath, and the moment I was released from the imprisoning body then I could breathe perfectly. I felt, — I could not describe it to you....
You know the actual passing out of the body, there is a little feeling of, sort of depression, as it were, and then when I passed out, just as I passed out, I began to feel uplifted. I felt as though the air was filled with perfume, and I was [soaring], rising, rising, rising above my body until I passed behind simply a veil. It is thin. It blinds your vision. It obstructs the vision for a moment from the earthly world. Then after we have passed beyond it, why the music, the flowers, the trees, the birds, the lakes, the rivers, the hills, the gardens, the walks, are perfectly magnificent, perfectly magnificent, and nothing in the earthly world hardly can even correspond to them. And we are taken up by perhaps a priest, or man that acts in the capacity of what you would understand as a clergyman, and they say: " This is a state of transition. You are now in the real life, in the new life. You will not see the face of the Father for many, many years, but He will give you strength and power to go back if you wish and see those whom you have left behind." And the feeling of ecstasy is beyond description, and no spirit that ever returned to earth could begin to describe it for the understanding of the mortal mind.
And then I was surrounded by friends, by acquaintances, by old war veterans, by my intimate friends whom I know, members of my family and all, surrounded by them, welcoming me. Why, I felt as though I should be enveloped by them, the delight was so great, but when I tried to call them by name I was at a loss to do so. They had to tell me who they were. I knew their faces, not one failed to me. I knew them and understood them well. I saw them and recognized them, but to call them by name, believe me, I could not. And when I tried to speak I found instead of it being an effort and difficult for me to speak, I found that my thoughts were understood, actually understood, and their thoughts were returned to me. There was a perfect communion between us.
And then I was taken — would you believe it if I should tell you? I was taken to an actual mansion. It would be what you would call a palace. There is a garden, walks about it. It is divided into rooms, actual compartments. I was taken to that and [they] said: " Here is your home; occupy it, live in it; have what friends you choose with you, what relatives you choose with you, and as those whom you have left behind follow you, you may welcome them to this home as you may see fit." Do you understand it?
(Yes.)
I went in and looked about me. I said: "Where does this music come from?" I walked through a corridor and turned into a room at the right and actually walked without fatigue, without effort; I simply glided in. I saw beautiful pictures upon the walls, I saw beautiful flowers that we called in the body palms, growing about me. I heard this beautiful music. I stepped along to a window and looked out, and under the window there were fifty young, beautiful faces, all playing, — an orchestra. That was my welcome, that was my serenade, as it were. And they said: "This is heaven, this is the spiritual world. We greet you." I went to the window and as I looked out upon the orchestra they each one bowed and waved their hands, and yet the music continued. They were playing upon instruments, actual instruments, all in harmony, and I never heard anything like it in the earthly world. The music was divine. I said: "I would like to go elsewhere." I bade them good-bye, as it were, — I just saluted them and passed along across the corridor back through the room, across the corridor into the opposite side.
I said: "Now I would like to see if it is possible, I would like to see flowers about me." I went to the window, and would you believe, the flowers appeared to me in masses, en masse, I might say, and I never saw such flowers. There were lilies, roses, violets, geraniums, carnations, azaleas, hyacinths, tulips, poppies, of every conceivable description, not all intermingled, but each one in its own place. What could you find, what could one wish for better than that?
I said: "Now if it is wise and right that I should seek it, I would like to hear some- thing that sounds like the voice of a bird."
They said: "Come this way." I was surrounded by these beautiful friends and by clergymen — a good many clergymen there and they said some beautiful things — and they said: "Come to this window and see." But I said: "May I not hear them here? " I listened. In a moment the air was filled with the music of the different birds. Well, you have no conception of what that melody was like. I saw the birds. The birds were just as distinct, much more so than your own. The flowers are real, and as I go back to the mortal life and see the crudeness of it and see how I lived, the active energy and the active life that I then led, the energy which I put into that life, I wonder that I ever existed in it at all. Now you are not living in the real life. You are living in a dream, as it were. When you waken from the dream you will live, in the eternal life....
I walked about, I felt, — it was strange I had no hunger, no thirst, no desire to eat, no desire for food, but I am sustained by the conditions of the elements. The condition of the elements is such that we are fed and sustained and live by them. You can understand it perhaps vaguely if not clearly....
(Well, what do you do mostly with your time?)
Well, now I will tell you. What would correspond with your morning — we have no morning, — that is, it is all morning in a sense, in a way, — there is no daylight and darkness with us, it is all daylight — and what corresponds with your morning — I find that there are always entering into this life, there are spirits entering constantly from your life, and each one needs help, needs to be shown the way, and I enter the multitude, the throng outside of my own home; I pass through, I see the veil uplifted, I see a spirit passing in, perhaps millions of spirits. And I was told when I entered it that I must make this life here useful by helping others and by reverencing God, offering up gratitude in a prayerful spirit to Him who created me and gave me the privilege of this life here. And I do that through the so-called day, without fatigue, with perfect delight, assist some one spirit or more who have left the body and entered this life. And until they are fully conscious and realize where they are — some are taken from us, we are not allowed to see them at all, they are taken into another sphere; those are passed beyond us, we have nothing to do practically with them — but there are spirits that enter our own sphere, and we each lend a hand, show them their homes, settle them in it, go back and help another, and we are constantly doing that.
And then I feel sometimes that I would like to help in something that corresponds with your writing. I find in my home everything for which I ask. If I wish pencil, what corresponds with your pencil, I have it. If I wish to write my thoughts I can write them, if I wish to speak them I can do so, and every thought is granted, every desire is granted. And if I wish to lecture, as I often do, I can do so without fatigue, and it is helpful to those who enter this life. If I wish to write I can write, if I wish to walk I can walk, if I wish to sing I can sing, if I wish to speak I can speak. That makes the life, as you would understand it, perfect. It is a perfect life. And in order to live this perfect life you have got to live in that imperfect life, and the more you undertake to prepare for this life the less you have to go through when you pass it and the clearer your thoughts become when you enter it....
Then in the afternoon sometimes I write a lecture, I go out and look at my flowers, enjoy them; I go and visit others, they visit me. I learn to play on the instruments, the different instruments. I am absorbed in music and I love the flowers and the birds.
Then I feel as though I would like to take up some intellectual pursuit, and then I begin, and I am studying with those who have been here longer than myself the actual conditions of this life and what go to make up the life here, and as I learn I give it out to others, interpret my knowledge to others. Therefore our intellectual capacity is unlimited in a sense, and constantly being educated. And it is a beautiful idea, is it not? And then all through what you would call evening, during the evening, what would correspond with your evening, there is chiefly music going on, entertainment and music. Then after that passes, what corresponds with your early morning or late in the night, there are lectures and concerts of all kinds and descriptions going on, so that our lives are completely filled. And then during the later hours of the morning, before what would be your daylight, every single spirit on my side of the spirit life where I am [is] bowed in prayer for what would be at least two or three hours corresponding with your time, perfect devotion and a prayer.
(Then you don't have to sleep the way we do?)
Have no sleep, no rest. What corresponds with your rest is activity on our part. And then after the devotional exercises we are ready for what would correspond with your day for our work again. Can you conceive of anything more beautiful or more perfect, or more to the liking of a man with my tastes and my ideas?
(No.)
But man should live his allotted time in the earthly world to prepare to live and to live in this world, but if he takes his life intentionally or otherwise he remains in a sense like a little child here, or a germ, and he has to develop, unfold, bud and flower, and he must necessarily do so. Ask me anything you wish. I am so glad to tell you this because I want you to get some conception of what I am and what I am doing. This is not an idle, useless life here, — ah, no, not at all.
Asking about George Pelham, who had communicated through Mrs. Piper in earlier years:
(Is he in another sphere, so called?)
Yes, he is in the last sphere, what you would speak of as heaven; the last, seventh sphere.
(What sphere are you in?)
I am in the third now. We have to pass through the third sphere in order to return, one might say, and therefore I could not return immediately directly I passed out of my body.
(Oh, that is the reason, is it?)
Yes. It is just like going from one room to another.... We advance until we feel that we have perfected ourselves according to God's will and idea, and then we are satisfied with ourselves, and not until we have.
(Well, when you first passed out did you go into the first sphere, or do you call this the first sphere where I am?)
Entering the material life is one sphere of life; that is the first, because life comes with the creation of the mortal body; life comes, it is the breath of God, and you are a branch of His great tree, you understand, and then the spirit grows, advances. Sometimes it does not advance in the mortal because it is hampered by physical ill, etc. If not, it is removed after a time and enters our life and then begins to develop and grow.
The General elaborates on conditions in his world:
You have heard of pearly gates and streets of pearl? Those were as real as any expression which you may use in the physical life. More real. It is a fact, — there are streets of pearl, gates of pearl.
(Just like our pearl?)
It is similar. Yes, the comparison is so near that you could not mistake it for a moment. And our castles, our homes, are real. They are as real to us as yours are to you. Yours is simply the imitation, ours is the real. We have streets, we have gardens, we have homes, we have rivers, we have lakes. If we bathe in the river our garments are not wet, but still we are purified, we are cleansed. But the natural hair — but entering it does not saturate our garments, and it does not wet what you call the hair. We come out and it is light and dry, the garments are dry, but the soul is purified by bathing in the waters. Is that clear to you? We walk about the lakes, we walk in the gardens, we meet friends, we commune with friends, we hear music, we hear sermons, and we pass our time glorifying God and living in His presence, in a sense, — understanding what His hand hath created and what He has blessed us with, eternal life.
(When you go out of your mansion and look up toward what would be our sky, what do you see?)
We see above us, we see our world radiant, filled with light, a beautiful, soft moonlight, difficult for you to comprehend because it is so clear, so beautiful, so light. We do not see what you see — stars — but we see this beautiful moonlight above us, all round us. The air is scented with the most delicious perfume. It is so exquisitely delicate that it seems almost a part of our own existence, it is so beautiful, so delicate, and so real. And we see above us this beautiful light, and it is what you would call in your world the heavens. It is above us, far above us, and we see at times, we see — a face appears. It grows lighter at times, especially when we are in a particularly happy state. The face appears over us and we know it is the face of Christ. We hear the swishing of the garment, as it were, and then it passes off and some one else receives the vision.
(Do you ever see any other face like that in the heavens except that of Christ?)
We see what you would call — there are saints administering to those who need help, or perhaps have just passed over, have not understood the conditions, and these saints appear to give them courage and to give them faith and to show them that this is everlasting and eternal life. I am not very good at preaching.
(Then you do not have our beautiful firmament of stars at night?)
We have what corresponds to your stars. There are rays, as it were, little flickering rays all through the firmament, all through the heavens. We see these little rays all about us, this beautiful figure passing, we see another face and then another as it passes. Why do we not come into closer proximity with them, as we say ? Because they are superior even to ourselves, they have progressed, they have gone on to a higher, even, sphere than our own. That is, they are the controlling, the ruling forces, and govern our own life and our own world.
One question often asked by skeptics is why do mediums can have trouble coming up with memories of specific names. Is it evidence of fraud on their part? The General says otherwise:
Many names have gone from me, naturally, and new ones have come up to me. Names of places, names of people whom I knew in the mortal world, have gone from me to a certain extent, and as I go on they go still farther from me, but I shall never forget you. I remember when I was suffering so, I remember the little councils we had together, and they have lasted in my memory and will to the end of all life.
(General, it seems to be the real spiritual sympathies that you remember only — )
Yes, well, those are the vital ones, those are the real ones. And when you understand better the conditions of life and the conditions of passing from that life to this, the changes in the life as it were, you will understand more clearly what that means. But until then it will be difficult for you to understand it fully.
Finally, here is an excerpt of interest because it fits nicely with communications received by another medium, Geraldine Cummins. Cummins channeled psychical research pioneer F.W.H. Myers in two books, The Road to Immortality (1932) and Beyond Human Personality (1935). The material that came through Mrs. Piper more than two decades earlier is consistent with the Cummins material. Of course one might argue that Cummins was influenced by Robbins' book (if she ever read it), but Cummins' famous channeled book Swan on a Black Sea is so well-corroborated that it lends credence to the other communications she received.
(General, are you in a sort of zone around the atmosphere of this earth, and can you go to other planets and stars if you wish?)
Yes, certainly, and now there is a case here which has been very peculiar and perhaps has been commented upon in the mortal body — doubtless it has, because I have seen this man struggling here and then I have seen him depart suddenly. He would come to the Light and the Light would not be open, and he would take his departure and go way off to another country. His name is Myers, or Myer.
[I think my communicator in life knew nothing about F. W. H. Myers, of England, who died in 1901, the year preceding that in which my communicator died.]
And he comes here, he finds the Light un-open — a very active, brilliant, fine man, keen perceptions, finest type of mind — and he comes here, he finds the Light not burning, he departs, he goes and looks after his family — he has a family in the mortal body — he goes to find them and remains with them, and oftentimes when the Light is burning he fails to appear, but you can understand that because of his absence from the Light and being among those he loves.
( Well, does he go to other worlds?)
He goes to other worlds and other planets. He is constantly studying — he is a great student — he is studying the conditions and the changes and the whys and the wherefores of communication, and the laws of life in the spirit, in the body, and the ways of God and the ways of man and spirit in general.
How can we interpret these communications? While the description of Myers certainly fits what is known of him, and the General's own personality - including his penchant for quoting poetry - comes through in a way that was easily recognizable to his friends, there are other elements - pearly gates, Christ smiling down from the sky - that seem too hard to take at face value.
One explanation is that our experience of the afterlife is conditioned to a large extent by our expectations. The General, raised in a Christian culture, probably expected to find this particular version of paradise, as did many of his friends. That doesn't make their experience unreal, since reality in these higher spheres is apparently created or at least strongly influenced by consciousness. Note that the General says Christ appears in the heavens when he is in an especially happy frame of mind - suggesting that his own mindset helps bring about the phenomenon.
There's also the possibility that in translating these concepts into words, some shades of meaning have been lost, while other meanings have been misunderstood. And the General's more controversial or unorthodox opinions seem to have been deliberately suppressed. For instance, Robbins writes,
At this point an account is given of his asking to know something about Christ, to know whether he had been deceived in the earthly world in what he had been taught about Christ, and a description is given of a certain vision that was vouchsafed him. I have thought best to omit this whole passage.
Why not include this material? Presumably, unlike the pearly gates, it would go against the grain of conventional religious piety.
Of course, the skeptical explanation for the occasional fairy-tale quality of the communiques is that the material came from Mrs. Piper's subconscious. We shouldn't be too quick to dismiss this objection. The non-evidential nature of much of what is said was noted even in a 1910 New York Times review of Robbins' book, which can be read here (PDF).
But what is evidential, to me, about the claims attributed to the General is that they conform pretty closely to NDEs reported decades later by people who surely had never heard of Mrs. Piper - people who had never studied the esoterica of spiritualism and who, in some cases, would have been strongly averse to such teachings prior to their NDEs.
NDErs, like the General, report passing out of the body ... experiencing confusion ... being drawn toward a very bright light that did not hurt their eyes ... then encountering deceased loved ones, often dressed in white robes, in a beautiful world of flowers and gardens, where there are houses, hospitals for recent arrivals, and educational institutes in which the departed can continue to study as they progress toward higher spheres.
Is this remarkable conformity a mere coincidence? Is it evidence of some universal tendency, hardwired into the brain, to fantasize along similar lines? Or is it an indication that the General's report is basically trustworthy?
I'm inclined to believe the latter. If so, we'll find out for ourselves, sooner or later - on the other side of the veil.
Hey Michael,
Although it's impossible for us to verify if the account is 'real' or not. I can tell you that the 'faery tale' like description does not discount the validity of the story in any way.
You must understand that there is the existence of something called the 'hollow heavens'. This information has been repeated through both reputable spirit messages, and NDE accounts. These are worlds created by highly religious people, because of their firm belief (law of attraction in work).
Some of these worlds are frightening and even full of torment. And some are not so bad. His peaceful description, with 'Christ smiling in the sky', makes me believe that his world is one where many of the 'happy' Christians go, not necessarily the fire-and-brimstone sort.
Next, his account of the heaven is very consistent with what is written in "Life in the World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia. This is a spirit transcribed book that also describes rivers and lakes which do not actually produce wetness and discomfort. Plus many other consistent details I noted.
So, this is a consistent pattern of an afterlife description found not only in NDEs, but also other, separate medium-transmissions.To me, this adds some credibility.
It's also not a stretch to have a 'physical' afterlife as he described (houses, lakes, forests). Personally, I would really love that style of afterlife. Our world has all these great things, but our world is also very problematic. The idea of Earth 2.0, if you will, is a fantastic notion. This place has also been described in other texts and eyewitness accounts as 'Summerland'. Of course, there are other planes, I believe, that have no physical attributes. Rather, when consciousness rejoins as energy patterns, and we are at our most simplistic and pure form. But, I believe we also have free-will, and we can choose--and transition between--different dimensions depending on our mood, I suppose.
If we feel so inclined in the hereafter, we can even enter into hell and try to help lost souls. The difference between the real hell and the Christian hell is that the real one is far worse. Albeit, not permanent. On this note, through my research I've made some interesting discoveries. Among them is that the afterlife is not without danger. And it's possible to be absorbed by the darkness of very evil planes if your willpower is not strong enough.
Posted by: Cyrus | February 20, 2009 at 10:45 PM
"Or is it an indication that The General's report is basically trustworthy?" - Michael Prescott
--------------------------------------------
I remember once when I was about nineteen years old hearing a preacher, whilst holding up a Bible, saying with great conviction "it's either all true or it's all lies!" At the time, when I was a very young and naive nineteen years, that made sense to me, but now that I'm much older, and hopefully wiser, I know that's not how life is. It's doesn't have to be "it's either all true or all lies." Some of it can be true and some of it can be fabrication and padding. Stuff to make to make it more palatable. Embellishment. What I've learned is you have to be able to sift through the information and be able to pick out the gems. Some of it's true and some of it's not. When I used to watch the John Edward Crossing Over show every once in a while he'd make a hit that was awesome, but mostly what he said was very bland and mundane and could have applied to just about anyone, but when he hit a homerun I was blown away.
Posted by: Art | February 20, 2009 at 10:48 PM
Next, his account of the heaven is very consistent with what is written in "Life in the World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia. This is a spirit transcribed book that also describes rivers and lakes which do not actually produce wetness and discomfort. Plus many other consistent details I noted.
I read Borgia's book a few years ago, but had forgotten the detail about the water that doesn't make you wet. You're right that the two accounts are quite similar in many respects.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | February 20, 2009 at 11:46 PM
From: Frontiers of the Afterlife" by Edward C. Randall:
"I have heard other voices - voices of those the world calls dead - on more than seven hundred nights, covering a period of twenty-two years, aided by a wonderful psychic, I talked with those in the after life, they using their own vocal organs just as I did."
A description of the afterlife from one there by direct voice :
"I really cannot give you an adequate description...... It is so marvelous and so stupendous that it would not be possible for any one still on the earth to grasp its significance. ... It is a wondrous land of light, where the beauties of nature, as seen on the earth, are brought to perfection. There we have sea, sky, hills, mountains, valleys and grassy plains, in all their beauty of form and coloring, but without blemish. There are no barren or desolate places and there is none of man's handiwork to mar all this loveliness.
"There are forests of noble trees, great rivers, waterfalls, lakes, streams of all sizes, all crystal clear, and lovely meadows carpeted with the most beautiful flowers, over which hover myriads of gorgeous butterflies. There are countless numbers of the most beautiful birds everywhere. Animals of all kinds abound too.. Some of them are dainty and graceful, and others are very stately and dignified. It is one vast panorama of loveliness, for those who have eyes to see. "
"I understand fully," another spirit said, "that I have left my physical body. I was fully conscious when the change was taking place. My first thought was that I did not want a post-mortem of my earth body, and I was relieved when I knew it was not to be done. This is a beautiful world, in which I live, with opportunities beyond your conception. When earth conditions do not bind me, I can attend great lectures, and in temples of music hear celestial song. But I am bound to earth by the sorrow of my father and mother. They brood and weep, and sorrow--for me as one dead, and that holds me like bands of steel, so that I can only at times do what other boys do. They don't understand that I am more alive than ever before, but until they give me happier thoughts my progression is stayed and I am as unhappy as they are. And I could be so happy and accomplish so much, if they would let me go. Won't you go and tell them what I have said, and change their thoughts? Tell them that death is life boundless and endless, and our sphere is filled with happiness. Please promise."
Posted by: Zerdini | February 21, 2009 at 01:05 AM
“there are spirits entering constantly from your life, and each one needs help,”
it appears that this greeting newly arrived spirits is the number one service in the after life at least in the third dimension. I am not sure the higher realms are doing this work.
“But man should live his allotted time in the earthly world to prepare to live and to live in this world,”
That advice appears to be a common theme from the other side.
“Entering the material life is one sphere of life; that is the first”
He does not mention the second sphere, which appears to be a place one does not want to be. It appears many spirits go there but only for a temporal amount of time. It also appears one of the reasons for staying there is our own self-judgment.
“It is a fact, — there are streets of pearl, gates of pearl.”
This description of the third sphere does not cross validate very well with my research. Maybe that third sphere being much more mental than earth so this is what he expected to find and was able to see what he expected to see.
“And our castles, our homes, are real. They are as real to us as yours are to you. Yours is simply the imitation, ours is the real. We have streets, we have gardens, we have homes, we have rivers, we have lakes.”
I have not read much about the castles but the rest of his descriptions are a common theme from those on the other side residing in the third dimension. In my dream or visitation or whatever I only saw rivers, lakes, forests, and gardens. I.e. no homes or castles or streets. But beautiful colors beyond mere words. Nothing like I have ever seen on this earth. The closest I found was while flying in an airplane in Australia several hundred miles up the coast beyond Brisbane.
“If we bathe in the river our garments are not wet”
Many have stated this from the other side. It is hard to even imagine swimming in water and not getting wet.
“The face appears over us and we know it is the face of Christ.”
Makes one wonder if the Buddhists see the face of Buddha.
“One explanation is that our experience of the afterlife is conditioned to a large extent by our expectations”
I believe this to be so, especially for a person that has experienced an NDE. An NDE is a temporal experience and in my mind subject to much more conditioning by our expectations and our religious teachings than a spirit coming through a medium. But NDE’s are not entirely subject to our expectations as there are some common themes that are told by most experiencers including children and atheists and those that were blind.
As this third sphere is much more of a mental world I have a theory as to why we need this physical life first then move into more mental worlds.
Our thoughts as new souls are not refined enough to reach these higher realms of existence. We have to experience a reality that we have less control over. Our selfish wishes and desires would cause us to self destruct with wars and feuds and etc.
Posted by: william | February 21, 2009 at 01:48 AM
Michael Prescott wrote:
"NDErs, like The General, report passing out of the body ... experiencing confusion ... being drawn toward a very bright light that did not hurt their eyes ... then encountering deceased loved ones, often dressed in white robes, in a beautiful world of flowers and gardens, where there are houses, hospitals for recent arrivals, and educational institutes in which the departed can continue to study as they progress toward higher spheres. "
Hi Michael,
Thanks for the excellent post - I'm actually writing an article on the NDE/Mediumship crossover for Darklore 3. One shared item you missed which turns up very regularly is the "talking via telepathy". There are a number of NDE accounts where the experiencer notes this with surprise, in much the same manner as in the account above.
Posted by: Greg Taylor | February 21, 2009 at 04:40 AM
If you read the descriptions of the spirit world conveyed through mediums, it seems that the second law of thermodynamics (entropy always increases) does not apply there. Spirits don't have to eat. When they come out of the water after swimming, they are not wet - all the water completely runs off them and back into the lake. Plants exist there but don't grow in dirt that sticks to your shoes so soil does not get tracked into the house. Things there are created by thought and remain until another thought disperses them. This is consistent with a world created by the thoughts of a telepathic race living in a world where thoughts are "material" things. What one person imagines everyone else sees as a solid object.
Posted by: | February 21, 2009 at 08:11 AM
Anthropomorphism
(noun) Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.
I would say that there is also a tendency among believers in a spiritual realm to give anthropomorphic descriptions and explanations of the "supernatural" world.
(Excerpted from the internet)
I do not, nor have I ever, taken any transcommunicated description of what life is like on the other side at face value. It's all anthropomorphic metaphor and construct designed to help us grasp the indescribable.
Posted by: Marcel Cairo | February 21, 2009 at 09:05 AM
I've read the other side is a place where everything exists and nothing exists.
"Did you know that I was dead ? It was most extraordinary, my thoughts became persons." A..J. Ayer's NDE
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html
"Suddenly I thought of a mountain, I had seen as a child. When I looked up from the road there it was; The Mountain!" - Mark H's NDE http://www.nderf.org/mark_h's_nde.htm
Posted by: Art | February 21, 2009 at 09:42 AM
To clarify: When I spoke of "fairy-tale" aspects of this communication, I wasn't referring to the idea that the spirit world has houses, trees, birds, gardens, etc. All this has been part of spirit communications from the beginning - at least as far back as Swedenborg. What struck me as having a fairy-tale quality was the stuff about pearly gates, streets of pearl, and the face of Christ appearing in the sky.
In these respects the description matches up pretty well with an NDE reported by Don Piper, a fundamentalist Christian, in his book 90 Minutes in Heaven. In an earlier post I wrote:
Posted by: Michael Prescott | February 21, 2009 at 12:56 PM
In other words, people see what they are conditioned to see.
MP, I’m not sure if that is quite correct. When I had my NDE, I didn’t see what I would have expected an afterlife to be like. I didn’t come from a particularly religious background; my mom liked to go to church sometimes, usually at Christmas. I knew a bit about religion, but never thought of myself as belonging to one. But I think if you had asked me what heaven was like before my NDE, I would have come up with something like I had heard about in church.
My NDE wasn’t anything like what religion teaches; there were no angels or pearly gates. But it was very much my own idea of heaven, with wild spaces and freedom. Plus tea and cookies with Grandma.
Maybe it isn’t so much as what you are conditioned to see, but what really matters to you. You experience what you love.
BTW, if NDEs are just pleasant dreams - which is something that has been suggested to me on occasion - why is it only deceased people that are seen? If I was just dreaming up a happy place to cope with my body being in such bad shape, why didn’t I dream about my mom, dad or husband? They were the people I was closest to when I had the accident. Instead, I saw my deceased grandmother and my dog (who died in the same car accident that caused me to have the NDE).
Posted by: Sandy | February 21, 2009 at 01:53 PM
Sometimes I wonder if NDE's are somehow staged by higher beings for the benefit of the experiencer. In that case they would probably construct a view acceptable to the experiencer. I think when spirits try to communicate to mortals they have to be careful not to present anything that would contradict the person's strongly held beliefs because then the person might reject the entire communication as being a figment of their imagination or coming from evil spirits.
Posted by: | February 21, 2009 at 04:43 PM
“Meanwhile, deathbed visions from India ... often involve images of Hindu deities”
Like attracts like and on the other side it appears that Hindus hang out with Hindus and Americans with Americans etc. I think it is a soul cluster or soul band thing. People that greet us are people that have loved us and we them. It appears that even a pet dog might be there to greet us. Love binds us together.
Posted by: william | February 22, 2009 at 12:11 AM
I thought there are a few NDEs where LIVING persons are in them aren't there? To me this sounds like very bad news. It makes the whole thing seem "not real".
I also don't understand the concept of "thoughts are things" either. As far as Art's NDE thing: if the person's thoughts became a "person" how could it be said that that "person" was "real"? I don't understand this at all, it makes me think maybe NDEs are "not real". I don't know.
Posted by: Dave | February 22, 2009 at 07:14 AM
Also Sandy, I would like to know more about the "people" you are/can see. Or maybe if I gave you my email address you would talk about it a bit with me by email? I also had an NDE type event happen to me.
Posted by: Dave | February 22, 2009 at 07:15 AM
"Thoughts are things" has meaning on different levels. In the sense that an idea can influence society and people a thought has a real influence, it exists in some form or another in the minds of people therefore it is a thing that exists and has influence on the world. As humans we would tend to think of a thought as some type of pattern in the brain, spirits seem to indicate they are also made of some type of "material" in the spirit world.
From certain descriptions of the spirit world we have from spirits it seems that the statement mind over matter is much more of a physical reality there then it is here. Through mediums spirits describe creating their envrionment not from raw materials and by using tools but by using the mind to create it. If we are in a "mental universe" and I think of a chair we are telepathhic, then you see the chair I think of.
That is a sort of explanation. It's also hard to assess the reliability of everything attributed to spirits through mediums. So you have to recognize that we don't have perfect knowledge of the spirit world.
I think Sandy posted some of her experiences here:
http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/650-personal-experiences.html
It's a long thread but well worth looking at. In my opinion it is really a very unique, compelling and valueable description.
Posted by: | February 22, 2009 at 07:45 AM
I thought there are a few NDEs where LIVING persons are in them aren't there? To me this sounds like very bad news. It makes the whole thing seem "not real".
I'm afraid this is the case both for NDEs and Death Bed visions. This hints that there is nothing supernatural to these phenomenas.
Posted by: Steen Bundgaard | February 22, 2009 at 08:34 AM
Also Sandy, I would like to know more about the "people" you are/can see. Or maybe if I gave you my email address you would talk about it a bit with me by email? I also had an NDE type event happen to me.
Dave, I did post some of my experiences on the Skeptiko podcast forum as “Sandy B.” . You can always PM me at that forum if you want to talk.
Posted by: Sandy | February 22, 2009 at 09:22 AM
To me this sounds like very bad news. It makes the whole thing seem "not real".
This is where we need to be careful about our definition or "real", methinks. Consider this short excerpt from MP’s post above:
As I was reading this post and the subsequent comments, it occurred to me that both Autobiography of a Yogi and The Secret Teachings of All Ages can each be heavily mined for cross-validation purposes. In Chapter 43 of the former, Yogananda relates an encounter with his guru, Sri Yukteswar, who had passed from the earth life some months before. Yogananda is stunned to behold his guru in fleshly form before him, and leaps to embrace him.Yukteswar then embarks on a highly detailed cartography of the astral and causal realms. There are so many parallels between his comments and MP’s excerpt above that if someone chose to they could literally deconstruct the General’s statements, line-by-line, to discover that he is describing what appears to be one level of existence in what Yukteswar describes as the astral realm. This later exchange between Yogananda and Yukteswar also supports the closing comment Zerrdini shared in his excerpt from Frontiers of the Afterlife
Manly P. Hall’s The Secret Teachings of All Ages also goes to great lengths to demonstrate that all of the ancient mystery schools were designed to awaken the student to the ultimately idealist nature of existence, and is clear that the process continues throughout multiple realms. Another, more contemporary source that supports this is the Seth material.
As I’ve tried to express before, I think the real difficulty that is encountered when we’re faced with the suggestion that all of existence is ultimately of the nature of a dream is the tendency to assume that this must mean that none of us are experiencing the ‘real’. I think this is a misunderstanding. I think we’re all experiencing the real, but that we’re all experiencing the real differently. We tend to regard our perceptions of reality as reality itself, yet the ultimate reality is discovered within and behind the process involved in perceiving.
As an aside for Greg, regarding “talking via telepathy”, Yogananda shares these comments in the above chapter as well:
It seems to me that the challenge of existence is perfectly encapsulated by Yuktewar’s earlier plea to Yogananda: “Differentiate, my son, between dreams and Reality!”
Posted by: Michael H | February 22, 2009 at 09:33 AM
For a great deal what The General says about the afterlife conditions seems quite the same as the writing from the dutch medium Jozef Rulof.With the difference that Jozef Rulof goes much deeper in specifics with regards to the afterlife.
Tnx for that write-up MP,interesting stuff as always.
Posted by: Bryan.A | February 22, 2009 at 11:04 AM
“This hints that there is nothing supernatural to these phenomenas.”
Yes try to convince my wife and her sister of this when they were with their brother as he was crossing over as things (large mats) moved in the room not once but twice at the exact moment she asked her brother “what do you see”. And he passed ten years to the day and hour that his dad passed.
“So you have to recognize that we don't have perfect knowledge of the spirit world.”
Also we don’t have perfect knowledge of the physical world. If we had perfect understanding there would be no us. It is only our degrees of unawareness that makes us unique and us.
“It's also hard to assess the reliability of everything attributed to spirits through mediums.”
With enough research there becomes a common theme from the other side especially with what appears to be the third realm of existence, which it appears most humans cross over to after they leave their physical bodies.
“I thought there are a few NDEs where LIVING persons are in them aren't there?”
One possible explanation is that the soul of a living “physical” person is seen during an NDE. Also if you are fan of Newton and his between life hypnosis our physical bodies do not contain all of our entire soul and part of “us” still exist on the other side. Or not, some NDE’s may not be valid NDE’s.
“When you waken from the dream you will live, in the eternal life...”
I think we have to be very careful with the word dream as some people take that to mean it is not real. It is real to us and has purpose and meaning. Again it depends on our operational definition of dream. Also when I look back over my life I have to admit those memories appear to me more as a dream then a concrete reality.
“it occurred to me that both Autobiography of a Yogi and The Secret Teachings of All Ages can each be heavily mined for cross-validation purposes”
I agree as I attended self-realization for about six months in the mid nineties and went to stay with the monks at their retreat (herb farm) in California for several weeks. It amazed me that the head monk at the retreat was teaching that there is a personal devil out to get us. It always interest me how the followers of a guru can often misinterpret that guru’s teachings.
Posted by: william | February 22, 2009 at 01:05 PM
I thought there are a few NDEs where LIVING persons are in them aren't there? To me this sounds like very bad news. It makes the whole thing seem "not real".
I'm afraid this is the case both for NDEs and Death Bed visions. This hints that there is nothing supernatural to these phenomenas.
Not necessarily. There are phenomena called phantasms of the living (a form of crisis apparition) and bilocation (a form of astral projection). Both of these paranormal phenomena involve living people being in two places at once. In addition spirits have said through mediums that people can go to the spirit world while their physical bodies sleep.
So, there are a plenty of paranormal precedents for living people to participate in other people's nde's and death bed visions.
Posted by: | February 22, 2009 at 01:25 PM
I also don't understand the concept of "thoughts are things" either. As far as Art's NDE thing: if the person's thoughts became a "person" how could it be said that that "person" was "real"? I don't understand this at all, it makes me think maybe NDEs are "not real". I don't know.
- Dave
--------------------------------------------
Our physical universe ain't quite as "real" as one might believe it to be. An atom is mostly ghostly empty space and the sub atomic particles themselves are hardly like anything we've come to know as "real" matter. Sub atomic particles are more akin to an eddy in a stream of fluctuation in the quantum background than a rock or a BB. They can appear and disappear, pass right through solid matter, communicate instantaneously with each other and sometimes the people who are investigating them. If an atom were the size of the empire state building the nucleus in the nucleus in the middle would be the size of a grain of rice, and the electrons outside would be mere wisps of smoke somewhere outside the building. You need to read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. It's his masterpiece. In a hologram each piece contains the whole. People who have NDE's say stuff like "I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously."
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html
excerpt from online essay about the holographic universe:
"If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html#zine
Posted by: Art | February 22, 2009 at 02:02 PM
In addition spirits have said through mediums that people can go to the spirit world while their physical bodies sleep.
Yukteswar suggests the same thing in the above linked chapter as well:
"A man identifies himself about sixteen hours daily with his physical vehicle. Then he sleeps; if he dreams, he remains in his astral body, effortlessly creating any object even as do the astral beings. If man's sleep be deep and dreamless, for several hours he is able to transfer his consciousness, or sense of I-ness, to the causal body; such sleep is revivifying. A dreamer is contacting his astral and not his causal body; his sleep is not fully refreshing."
Posted by: Michael H | February 22, 2009 at 04:17 PM
NDes and Deathbed Visions involving living peopel are very rare and it requires a lot of searching to dig them up.
Posted by: Cyrus | February 22, 2009 at 06:12 PM
Michael: What do you think of the COMETA Report?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMETA
Posted by: Mars Attacks | February 22, 2009 at 07:37 PM
What do you think of the COMETA Report?
I have no opinion. I've never studied UFOs and know almost nothing about the subject.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | February 22, 2009 at 09:45 PM
I saw ghosts that were different from what I usually see today. I was coming home from walking in the park just around the time it was starting to get dark outside. I could see pretty globes of light, with a dense looking middle part surrounded by the kind of colors I see around people. They felt conscious/alive. Some of them were moving around, although not all that fast. They kind of looked like they were floating just above the snow on the ground.
I've seen such things before, usually when the sun is going down and it is dusky out. In the past, I've gotten upset because these things are so weird. Once I panic, I usually stop seeing them. This time I was tired from my walk and just couldn't be bothered to get upset. I could see the lights all the way home.
I was just wondering if Michael H., William or anyone else for that matter has an idea of what they are. I had wondered if perhaps they were the sort of ghosts that don’t need any help moving on. And yes, I am open to the possibility that seeing these things is just delusional thinking on my part. That’s why I usually get upset when I see them. But I think I’m getting to the point where it has stopped making sense to panic. Going on my way in a calm reasonable manner is much less disruptive to my life, so that would seem to be the sensible reaction, if not the most intuitive one.
Posted by: Sandy | February 22, 2009 at 10:45 PM
Hey Sandy
Both my parents watched a golf-ball sized orb of light dance around our backyard for several minutes. It acted intelligently (playful, apparently), was very bright, yet it didn't cast any light on the ground.
I didn't see it. I was 6 at the time, and asleep...
But I certainly believe their story. They talk about it a lot, to this day. In fact, it seems to have really changed their lives.
Posted by: Cyrus | February 23, 2009 at 12:00 AM
About the holographic universe, I found this:
Amazon reports (8/27/06) that 282 of 288 persons found a review by "Damian Nash, Durango, Colorado" to be useful. The reviewer states: "I am also a scientist, and know that most of my highly rational, empirical colleagues [...]" A quick Google shows that reviewer to be a high school teacher. This should give us pause when considering what '5-stars' mean given the current '5-star' glut in the reviews of "The Final Theory", to give only one of the egregious examples at Amazon. It may be time to put an evaluation (I suggest a 5-X scale) on reviewers. That scale should be applied on a peer-review basis and not a popularity/incident/anecdote basis. Reviewers who only submit '5-star' reviews would rate an automatic '5-X' until peer-evaluated.
I have an open mind. I am open to a great many ideas, and embrace the evolving paradigm of our reality. With regret I feel compelled to relay that a moment taken to investigate the author’s bibliography will shoot holes straight through this book. It is unfortunate, because it is this type of writing that allows strict scientific types to discredit theories that challenge the established ways of thinking. The premise is great. Unfortunately, the tangent of estranged supposed proofs does more harm than good.
This reasoning is far-fetched, certainly not scientific, and is based on fallacy: the writer only picks from here and there "results from studies" that support his views. He has no self-criticism and does not mention any arguments against his views. Not scientific, not worth buying.
I suppose Talbot could be excused for not knowing that Hume was reporting that these so-called "miracles" were on trial, not that they were "shown to be true," our present-day meaning of the word.
If you are looking for a thoroughly engaging and fascinating report on the latest probing into the mysteries of our world I highly recommend Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe, Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory." String Theory, though still theoretical, is nevertheless "real science." One star for "The Holographic Universe" is too many. Unfortunately zero stars was not an option.
So I called the Menninger Foundation. I spoke with the media relations person at the Foundation extensively about this case and she confirmed that no such research ever existed at the Menninger Foundation. If you are still sceptical, go ahead and call them yourself - (713)275-5000.
Next, Mr. Talbot serves up nonsense like "During the last years of her life [St. Veronica Giuliani] became convinced that the images of the Passion - a crown of thorns, three nails, a cross, and a sword - had become emblazoned on her heart. She drew pictures of these and even noted where they were located. After she died an autopsy revealed that the symbols were indeed impressed on her heart exactly as she had depicted them. The two doctors who performed the autopsy signed sworn statements attesting to their findings". Wow, sworn statements? How about photographic evidence? Don't you think that if such a remarkable case had ever been documented that maybe it would appear on the front page of the New York Times?
The book continuous with more and more examples like this to make its case that the mind can cause physical manifestations in reality, however, as already noted with some examples above if the evidence presented is carefully investigated the whole case quickly falls apart like a giant house of cards.
He seems to find a way to relate the holographic model to everything under the sun, from the placebo effect, the afterlife, Hinduism, yogis and eastern philosophy (which he seems to relate all but the first two chapters too), and even miracles and UFO's. Most of what we don't understand about reality such as visions (i.e. of Christ, Saints, etc.) and ghost sightings (i.e. the paranormal) is usually chalked up as the result of the manifestation of a person's subconscious, projected outside their body, and probably not real, (according to Talbot.) But things and visions revealed under hypnosis or meditation (yes, meditative visions are often presented in this book) have very deep validity and meaning. I found this to be a bit biased. However, if you're into this kind of thing, this is the book for you. However, the more I read the more I find it more like a fiction book. Talbot does include references of almost all facts, but the way he rationalize them to be holographic in form is dubious and often unjustified at all.
On page 150 (soft cover), it talks about this guy, Sai Baba. The book claims Sai Baba could actually create any object he wanted and it would flow from his hands. It spent 4 pages on stuff Sai Baba has done, and how it's been confirmed. This intrigued me so much, I did a simple Google on "Sai Baba". After maybe 5 minutes of research, I found a website that had videos of Sai Baba producing random objects, and the videos were SOLID PROOF that Sai Baba is a fake. Not only a magician, but a terrible magician! The book presented his knowledge with such enthusiasm that I believed it. Only after some basic research did I realize it wasn't true.
Well, it took all of ten minutes to dig up enough dirt on this guy to fill a dump truck: eye witness accounts by people who had seen him palming objects or hiding them in his chair (backed by video tape evidence), testimony by young men who had been sexually molested by him, a suspicious multiple murder at the ashram of people who had fallen out of favour with Sai Baba, and so on.
The author goes on to explain how you can perceive any number of phenomena through the lens of a holographic universe, including your health, miracles, psycho kinesis, out of body experiences, near death experiences, stigmata and the list goes on. It started to sound like an infomercial selling you on the merits of the holographic theory. The biggest problem was no real distinctive proof was offered.
But one soon gets the sense the author is so desperate/enthusiastic to believe in these phenomena that his views are obviously biased, and he fails to balance his 'beliefs' with scientific fact (or is it that he avoids delving in too deep in the fear his theories will be disproved and his precious beliefs shattered?) For instance he fails to acknowledge or account for those who have experienced horrifying NDE's (and there are many!!).
Posted by: Dave | February 23, 2009 at 02:55 AM
"When I used to watch the John Edward Crossing Over show every once in a while he'd make a hit that was awesome, but mostly what he said was very bland and mundane and could have applied to just about anyone, but when he hit a homerun I was blown away."
-I could tell you about an appointment I had with a medium, Art, that was a full hour of homerun hits, that you can't even imagine! I never would have believed it if it hadn't happened with me.
Posted by: Dave | February 23, 2009 at 03:05 AM
I don’t see ghosts on a regular basis although once I lived in a house where I saw ghosts. My son who was very young then claims he used to see these ghosts all the time. Some research showed that at least two people had died in that house. One man was hit by a car as he walked across the road to get his paper and the other man refused to go to a hospital so he passed in this home.
Once while living alone in a house all of a sudden there were all kinds of noise in the kitchen and when I went in the kitchen it stopped; then when I left it started up again. Loud noises like pots and pans banging. Finally I started to tall loudly and ask what is going on in there and told it or whatever to stop. In a short while it stopped. Years later my son and his girlfriend now his wife informs me that at the swimming pool they used to see wet foot prints on the pool deck forming and walking across the deck but no one was there.
My granddaughter between the ages of two and three was claiming to her mom that she saw people in their house. Of course that young most assume they were imaginary friends. Some research reveals that it appears some children may be able to see ghosts or those on the other side. Another person I know saw a ghost almost in a full human body form and it scared her so bad she could not look again at it once it appeared to her. She now lives in some fear that it will appear to her again.
Once in a while I feel I can see a person out of the corner of my eye but when I turn my head nothing is there. Have no idea if that means anything. Have talked to other people that say they have the same type of experiences. There appears to be more going on than our senses can pick up on a regular basis.
Once I saw heavy physical objects move about all on their own with no help from anything that I know of to make them move. And they were moving in a rhythm that would have been impossible to make them move with that level of perfect swaying. I was about 19 at the time and it really scared me but I kept looking away then looking back and these objects kept moving on their own. I kept that to myself for 27 years. In those days one did not talk about the paranormal.
I am sure most people would just say it was a hallucination. Almost every day something happens that appears to be more than coincidence. Too many stories to tell.
Posted by: william | February 23, 2009 at 03:13 AM
I could see pretty globes of light, with a dense looking middle part surrounded by the kind of colors I see around people. They felt conscious/alive. Some of them were moving around, although not all that fast. They kind of looked like they were floating just above the snow on the ground. (Sandy)
Both my parents watched a golf-ball sized orb of light dance around our backyard for several minutes. It acted intelligently (playful, apparently), was very bright, yet it didn't cast any light on the ground. (Cyrus)
From Hall’s The Secret Teachings of All Ages, The Elements and Their Inhabitants:
It occurred to me a few weeks ago that you might find Hall’s manifesto very helpful, Sandy. I have a sort of not-fully-fleshed-out hypothesis that human history is cyclical, not linear, and that we are currently in a period of time in which many people are beginning to wake up to a much deeper understanding of reality that was well known to ancient societies.
My best guess is that your range of specific experiences is part of a much larger trend. I’ve suggested before that what you are aware of just indicates that your individual consciousness is attuned to wider aspects of reality than is currently accepted as “real”. Hall’s book explores the ancient mystery schools at length, and in reading your various comments, I can’t help but think that you are experiencing things that were well known to people who lived long ago. The Aristotelian obsession over the last two thousand years has managed to infect the entire planet, especially in respect to how knowledge is acquired.
The entire book can be read online at the link above, and an Amazon link to the recent paperback release can be found at the index.
Posted by: Michael H | February 23, 2009 at 04:39 AM
"It started to sound like an infomercial selling you on the merits of the holographic theory. The biggest problem was no real distinctive proof was offered."
- Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave after we cross over I promise not to say "I told you so!" no more than about a million times.
from Kelly K's NDE:
"The next thing I recall was being shown the universe. I remember thinking, "So, THAT'S how it is! I was in awe. It was like a huge net, or chain link fence, everything in the universe is connected."
http://nderf.org/kelly_k's_nde.htm
from Victor Solow's NDE:
"I was moving at high speed toward a net of great luminosity. The strands and knots where the luminous lines intersected were vibrating with a tremendous cold energy. The grid appeared as a barrier that would prevent further travel. I did not want to move through the grid. For a brief moment my speed appeared to slow down. Then I was in the grid."
http://tatfoundation.org/forum2003-12.htm
Arthur's NDE:
"I saw the car pass through the scene, it did not swerve, it did not turn. It passed directly through, leaving my wife and my body untouched. Instantly after that I found myself laying on the ground, back inside my body writhing in pain. This story can be confirmed! Teresa, who was my wife at the time can confirm it."
http://nderf.org/arthur_w's_nde.htm
Posted by: Art | February 23, 2009 at 07:21 AM
By the way, Sandy, and not to unnecessarily burden you with more suggested readings, but I find myself dealing with an incessant intuition to suggest that you might find the writings of Peter Kingsley to be of value. Antimatters had several pieces on Kingsley in Volume 1, No. 2 including a lengthy compilation of excerpts from two of his books, The Spiritual Tradition at the Roots of Western Civilization. The link to the issue is here:
http://anti-matters.org/ojs/index.php?journal=am&page=issue&op=view&path[]=2
Bryn Mawr Classical Review reviewed both Reality and Ancient Philosophy, Mystery, and Magic: Empedocles and Pythagorean Tradition at the following links:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2004/2004-07-43.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1997/97.10.19.html
There’s also a review of Reality (PDF) available at Kingsley’s site:
http://www.peterkingsley.org/pkoffice/images/Brewer,%20Review%20of%20Reality.pdf
As the first Bryn Mawr link states:
“Reality is a brilliant and passionately written book that will strike many if not most readers as monstrous, and in the true sense: it is wondrous, portentous, even frightening. For if we read it with care Reality will undermine not only our accustomed understanding of Parmenides and Empedocles, it will undermine our habits of rational sensibility, our consensus reality, even our self-identity. As Kingsley puts it: "If you want to keep a grip on what you think you already know, you will have to dismiss what I say", and he breaks scholarly convention by arguing that these ancient authors have something critically important to say to us.“
I find Kingsley’s work appealing not because I’m looking to have my rational sensibilities undermined, but because they already have been. I suspect you might find a similar sense of satisfaction in what he’s trying to share.
Posted by: Michael H | February 23, 2009 at 09:29 AM
Has anyone seen these youtube videos called James Randi speaks. I find them funny because their complete lies. Especially these two which he talks about parapsychology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUMY7epfsHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYVKbP93p4&feature=channel_page
Posted by: Leo MacDonald | February 23, 2009 at 09:40 AM
This is off topic but does "zerdini" have a blog or website?
Posted by: BC | February 23, 2009 at 12:25 PM
With a name like Zerdini, a website is a must!
I must second what Michael H said about Peter Kingsley - I bought the book on his recommendation. PK's reinterpretation of the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers is fascinating; and I was only thinking today that the form of meditation that focuses on a single point to clear the mind is only the start: how PK says that the final step is to be open to absolutely everything as it happens, fully embracing it, experiencing it, not judging or analysing it, because this reduces it to less than it is, and reduces us to less than we are. I would just love to see those salamanders over the snow in that frame of mind!
As for comparisons between descriptions of the wider reality, apart from the old school Yogananda et al, it's worth checking out modern explorers like Frank Kepple too -this is a good page:
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html
Posted by: Ben | February 23, 2009 at 12:47 PM
"With a name like Zerdini, a website is a must!"
LOL! Anyway, I'm interested in his experiences with Alec Harris, Leslie Flint, and Spiritualism in general. He seems to have led a fascinating life.
Posted by: BC | February 23, 2009 at 01:04 PM
Remote viewer Ed Dames has made a fool of himself, at least in my opinion, so many times because he's made so many false predictions that he has to perform mental yoga to try and make the failures seem like successes.
The good thing about predictions is that, well, the world eventually confirms the accuracy of your predictions——or NOT. And that's a good thing, because it's good honest feedback that at least some people who purport to be psychics, if not outright frauds, and even if they do have some odd successes, also prove how inexact they are.
I'm bringing this up because in the case of mediums, what kind of feedback do you get?
Does one medium confirm another medium because they are independently receiving accurate information from an otherworldy source? Or because the same ideas are percolating throughout popular culture, and they are all confirming the same ideas that they have learned from being in the world and which they all think are true, and not because they are getting information from beyond it?
I'm very skeptical of this kind of information because, unlike Dames' predictions proving false, what can you do to confirm any of it?
In addition, I'd have to side with Buddhist ideas, and not attribute much importance to thought at all. If what you think becomes "real" in the afterlife, then it seems to me you've become imprisoned in a solipsist prison of illusion.
Far from heavenly, I think that would be a nightmare.
Posted by: dmduncan | February 23, 2009 at 01:46 PM
I would just love to see those salamanders over the snow in that frame of mind!
Me too! I am laughing out loud!
I do need to stop chuckling long enough to say I'm glad to hear you found the Kingsley recommendation worthwhile, Ben.
Posted by: Michael H | February 23, 2009 at 02:12 PM
Michael and Ben, I keep reading about how people use meditation to have experiences like mine. I don’t meditate. I can’t even sit still for very long. If I watched more TV and ate junk food, would that turn me back into a normal person?
BTW, I wish I could show the lights to both of you. They do look pretty with all the snow.
Posted by: Sandy | February 23, 2009 at 03:07 PM
The point I forgot to make to tie it all up is this: If there were no feedback for Dames' predictions, so that we didn't know how often he was spectacularly wrong, he would probably have many more believers behind him than he does, and I am compelled to speculate that the situation is equally dire with regard to channeled information that cannot be verified at all. Except that we don't know how dire it is because we aren't fortunate to have the same kind of feedback that predictions get.
Posted by: dmduncan | February 23, 2009 at 03:21 PM
I don’t meditate. I can’t even sit still for very long. If I watched more TV and ate junk food, would that turn me back into a normal person? . . . BTW, I wish I could show the lights to both of you.
I don't meditate either, Sandy, but I do try to maintain a quiet mind. I'm pretty sure that if anyone's mind gets quiet enough, they'll see some lights of their own.
And for whatever its worth, TV and junk food hasn't turned me back into a normal person. It seems I have too much energy to be normal anymore, anyway.
Posted by: Michael H | February 23, 2009 at 03:32 PM
Does one medium confirm another medium because they are independently receiving accurate information from an otherworldy source? Or because the same ideas are percolating throughout popular culture ...?
I'm not too concerned about this issue because I think the correspondences go far beyond mediumistic communications, to include OBEs, NDEs, deathbed visions, and the teachings of mystical traditions. I would recommend the books of Robert Crookall, who collected numerous accounts of life after death from a variety of sources and showed how uniform they were. Many of the people who provided these accounts seem to have had no exposure to spiritualist doctrines.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | February 23, 2009 at 08:28 PM
I'm concerned about the claims in this post that you are going to live in a mansion and have all the books you want and see the face of Jesus in the sky, and just wanting things makes them available.
It reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode. A gangster dies and goes to "heaven" where he is waited on hand and foot, gets everything he wants, when he wants it, and then starts to get excruciatingly bored. He tells the caretaker that he must have got sent to heaven by mistake, and asks if he can possibly be sent to the "other place" where he is more likely to fit in, having been a former gangster and all.
For the first time the caretaker blows up in outrage.
"This IS the 'other place,'" he tells him, laughing maniacally as he locks the gangster in his suite.
Posted by: dmduncan | February 23, 2009 at 09:28 PM
You're probably right, dm. We should live our lives in fear of hell.
Posted by: Michael H | February 23, 2009 at 09:58 PM
Dm, I think the problem with these descriptions is that the part that is easy to describe is the unimportant stuff, all the window-dressing and fluff. The really important parts are really hard to get across to anyone. That is why I’ve never been happy with any of my own attempts to describe my NDE. The important things get lost in translation.
It is very hard to imagine any sort of hell in that place. It is much easier to imagine it here.
Posted by: Sandy | February 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM
At this stage of our evolutionary process, hell would be to get everything we wanted. Our level of conscious maturity would want things that cannot possibly give us the peace.
We need to climb that ladder or realms of soul development and as we do our thoughts become more able to control its reality. I suspect that with each new realm we transition to our soul has more control over its environment. Think about what earth would be like if every human got everything they wanted and just thinking it would fulfill every desire.
This may explain why earth appears to be such a harsh place where we feel like we are a goose in a bottle. I.e. stuck with little control of our destiny or fate. It may have to be that way until our souls can make more loving choices.
Posted by: william | February 23, 2009 at 10:41 PM
"You're probably right, dm. We should live our lives in fear of hell."
More evidence that thought does not create reality, at least not in this world, since the only dmduncan suggesting that we "live our lives in fear of hell" is the imaginary one in your head that is not the real me.
"At this stage of our evolutionary process, hell would be to get everything we wanted."
Yes, I think that's the point of the Twilight Zone story. When you are stuck to your thoughts like being strapped to a wild horse, getting everything you want is the worst thing that could happen.
Hollywood is full of people like that who make utter disasters of their lives because they can afford to have whatever they want when they want it. We don't have to venture into hypothetical realms to prove the point.
Posted by: dmduncan | February 23, 2009 at 11:12 PM
It is very hard to imagine any sort of hell in that place. It is much easier to imagine it here. - Sandy
--------------------------------------------
That's exactly what I believe. The bad stuff (here) happens for a reason. To teach the soul a few simple lessons. I doubt it matters what we believe either. Why? Because everyone believes something different. It just depends on where and when you were born. The education of our soul is too important to leave it up to chance, but the great thing is that I'm fairly certain that God was so smart that he/she was able to design a universe where we learn what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not. It's called holistic learning, where the lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and the soul learns about time and space, separation, and what it's like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe simply by living in it. My God is so smart that He/She was able to design a Universe where everyone learns what they are supposed to learn and becomes instantly enlightened upon entering the Light. In that moment of connectedness all knowledge is downloaded and we know what it was like to be the other person. I become you and you become me.
Posted by: Art | February 24, 2009 at 10:04 PM
More evidence that thought does not create reality
I don't think that thought creates reality. I do think that our consciousness interprets thought as reality at every moment, though, which means that at any given moment, any given individual can experience heaven, hell or anything in between. This applies right here and right now, and I suspect that the process continues indefinitely, including following physical death.
That might sound discouraging to some, since "indefinitely" can often be interpreted as meaning "endlessly". But this just points to the difficulty of understanding the Perennial Philosophy via the intellect. Because our consciousness is busy interpreting our thoughts as our reality at every moment, one person might equate "indefinitely" with endless, while another might recognize that the process is happening "right now". I do have some thoughts about which of these people is closer to understanding the true nature of reality, but those thoughts are in turn necessarily influenced by what my own consciousness is up to. The actual fact is that no matter where anyone happens to be at any given moment, anyone on earth can discover the ultimately ethereal nature of reality at any given moment.
The difference between what I’m trying to say and much New Age philosophy that preaches that thought creates reality is a subtle but important difference. The “thought creates reality” crowd advocates – at least as I’m interpreting them - an active effort to think positive thoughts while pushing negative thoughts away, the busyness of which exhausts me just typing the sentence. I’m suggesting that all that’s really necessary is learning thought recognition, which involves quieting the mind and just seeing thoughts as thoughts. I don’t seem to have much success in controlling my thoughts, but I do find that I always have a choice as to what thoughts I entertain, even if I occasionally forget that.
To that end, I find it hard to imagine a much more negative thought to entertain than the thought of a permanent hell, which does not mean that some people might not have hellish experiences. Still, I tend to agree with the Greyson and Bush position found in Ulrich Mohrhoff’s review (available at AntiMatters) of Penny Sartori’s recent clinical study of NDE’s:
“Particular attention has been paid to the often-neglected frightening aspects of some NDEs, which mitigate the reductionist “explanation” of NDEs being wishful thinking. (Greyson and Bush suggested that individuals who fear the loss of their ego are more likely to report a frightening NDE. Such individuals are used to being in control. Instead of surrendering to the experience of dying, it is resisted, the resulting fear permeating the experience. There is the possibility that if all frightening NDEs are to continue for long enough they would eventually convert to a pleasant NDE as the individual would eventually give in to the experience.)”
I’m just saying that essentially the same applies to those people who are dealing with hellish experiences right here on earth. To paraphrase Peter Kingsley, I think the genuine objective of existence is to surrender to, and arrive at, the death of our mortality. I also think that everyone will do so eventually, sooner or later.
Posted by: Michael H | February 25, 2009 at 08:53 AM
As an aside, it strikes me that Brian Brewer has captured the Perennial Philosophy particularly concisely in his review of Kingsley’s Reality (PDF):
1) All that is and was and will ever be is eternal in the here and the now.
2) The intelligence behind all things is wholly resident inside each of us and equally resident in all other things, making each of us a virtual cosmos encompassing all else.
3) Awakening to this fact frees us from the delusion of normal living and enables us to begin walking a path of return within ourselves toward true self knowledge.
4) The realization of the oneness of all being is empowering and raises our capacity for compassion to encompass everything within the infinite bounds of our beingness.
Posted by: Michael H | February 25, 2009 at 09:14 AM
My research indicates that we are the same sweet self’s or not so sweet self’s when we cross over and like attracts like in these other worlds or realms or spheres. Our bodies transition from physical to astral.
In these other realms we also have the opportunity to awaken to higher levels of vibration and continue to transition to higher and higher realms of existence. How many of those realms exist I know not most say seven but maybe seven is all they know about.
I suspect at these higher realms we are like gods creating life forms and even planets maybe even whole galaxies. The Godhead that meister eckhart talked about is this pure awareness with infinite potential and vitality. These gods are able to utilize this vitality to create this expression we see as the universe.
There is no such thing as space what we see as space is only due to our unawareness due to our vibrational level. Everything is God including what we view as space.
I make these comments from my research not from any claimed enlightenment.
Posted by: william | February 26, 2009 at 02:44 PM