Two quotes

Here are two nice  quotations from Anne Manning Robbins' 1909 memoir Both Sides of the Veil: A Personal Experience, which recounts her work as a stenographer and sitter for the Boston medium Leonora Piper.

In the first, Robbins describes "coming into universal consciousness":

It was not until the passing of the friend who went last to the spirit world that I seemed somehow to come into the blessedness of thinking mostly about life and excluding death altogether from my thoughts, of feeling life in the air which I breathe, the sky which I look at, the sun which shines upon me, and the darkness which shrouds and rests me; in fact, life and intelligence everywhere. And the wonderful thing about thus "coming into universal consciousness," as it is called, is that it takes away morbid over-anxiety to understand the whole scheme of creation or nothing, it brings back the natural charm of things which we felt in our childhood, it puts a new meaning into our common every-day life, and makes it worth while to endeavor to make of it a "thing of beauty," a "thing of power."

In the second, Robbins quotes from a 1901 letter written to her by Richard Hodgson, the investigator who spent years working with Mrs. Piper and eventually became convinced that the communications she received were genuine. Although Hodgson is generally thought of as a skeptical, hard-nosed researcher, he did have his more spiritual side, which seems to have been brought out by his experiences with Mrs. Piper. In this letter he speaks from the heart - perhaps the only time he ever committed such thoughts to paper:

Be of good courage whatever happens, and pray continually, and let peace come into your soul. Why should you be distraught and worried? Everything, absolutely everything, - from a spot of ink to all the stars, every faintest thought we think up to the contemplations of the highest intelligences in the cosmos, are all in and part of the infinite Goodness. Rest in that Divine Love. All your trials are known better than you know them yourself. Do you think it is an idle word that the hairs of our heads are numbered? Have no dismay, fear nothing and trust in God.

Both passages are found on pages 83-87 of Both Sides of the Veil, which can be read online in its entirety at Google Books.

Comments

[Art]

"All your trials are known better than you know them yourself. Do you think it is an idle word that the hairs of our heads are numbered? Have no dismay, fear nothing and trust in God." - Richard Hodgson
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Come on, am I supposed to just let this quote slip past me? Isn't this pretty much what I've been saying for the last several years?

from Jame's NDE:
"I was not "told" anything in the light, as much as, I just knew everything there was to know. I knew why there was bad in the world, I knew why there was good, I knew that every little thing that will ever occur here, is exactly planned out, in order to bring about something else. Everything we have ever done or known or will know, is perfectly planned out and perfectly in tune."
http://nderf.org/james_e_nde.htm

from Michelle's NDE:
"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here."
http://nderf.org/michelle_m%27s_nde.htm

"At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html#zine

[sonic]

It is nice to see a book that starts with a quote from Myers. I think we will see more of that in the near future as his basic understanding of consciousness is better recognized.

[Greg Taylor]

For those that like to have eBooks with them, the book is also available in various formats http://www.archive.org/details/bothsidesofveilp00robbrich>at archive.org.

Now can someone just digitise Alta Piper's biography of her mother - that one is like hen's teeth...

[Michael Prescott]

Thanks for the link, Greg. I prefer reading books on a portable device, and the PDF file wasn't ideal for that purpose.

[Michael H]

It is nice to see a book that starts with a quote from Myers. I think we will see more of that in the near future . . .

Which is followed by a quote from James. I suspect that future historians will treat these two with much greater respect than they generally enjoy today. Same for Richard Bucke.

As insightful as they may have been, though, it's Robbin's conclusion of the third paragraph that resonates with me:

"My real authority, however, must be, not what others have thought and said, with all due respect for the writers quoted, and with gratitude for the expression of the ages inextricably woven into the literature of our own generation; but the authority of deep conviction, of actual experience, of ever-widening vision, of increasing happiness, of growing power, and the belief that these things are for all who will seek."

Michael,

You can convert from pdf to text in acrobat. Sometimes if the pdf is locked you have to use ghostscript (downloadable free from the internet). You can try different tricks, printing to "generic postscript" to a file and then opening in ghostscript and converting to pdf, then go from pdf to text in adobe reader or ghostscript.

Ghostscript opens postscript and pdf files.

In the worst case, if the pdf is page images, you can print to fax as a file and use optical character recognition (ocr) software on the fax file(s) to make a text file.

"I knew that every little thing that will ever occur here, is exactly planned out, in order to bring about something else. Everything we have ever done or known or will know, is perfectly planned out and perfectly in tune."

Is this consistent with free will?

"I knew that every little thing that will ever occur here, is exactly planned out, in order to bring about something else. Everything we have ever done or known or will know, is perfectly planned out and perfectly in tune."

Does this mean I can go around doing mean, nasty, evil, things and not worry about it, and even take comfort in the knowledge that it was planned by beings greater than myself?

[Art]

"Does this mean I can go around doing mean, nasty, evil, things and not worry about it, and even take comfort in the knowledge that it was planned by beings greater than myself?"
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Why don't you try it and see? I don't believe in "free will." I believe "free will" is an illusion created by our brains and if it is written in the holographic paradigm for you to go nuts and become a homicidal psychopath you will. I don't think you will though. I think for the most part you will continue to be you and I will continue to be me. That's why people who have NDE's routinely say they were "shown their future." I've also had very specific precognitive dreams that have come true which leads me to believe the future is all ready written down somewhere. We are just actors in a play so that our souls can experience certain things to experience duality and separation, time and space, and imprint memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

[Barbara]

Art, James' NDE is clearly less than the whole truth. We have probabilities to choose from, we do not follow mapped-out certainties. We are not simply pawns. It's complete rubbish to say so. If everything were known in advance for certain, from a holographic perspective it would already have happened, and the process of going through it would be totally irrelevant. It would be like playing a game of football knowing all the moves in advance. No fun at all and useless to the evolving AUM.

[Michael H]

Does this mean I can go around doing mean, nasty, evil, things and not worry about it, and even take comfort in the knowledge that it was planned by beings greater than myself?

Why don't you try it and see? I don't believe in "free will."

Ah, the culture of victimhood. In the timeless words of http://www.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/1993/01/199301.html>Calvin:

"Nothing I do is my fault. My family is dysfunctional and my parents won’t empower me! Consequently, I’m not self-actualized! My behavior is addictive functioning in a disease process of toxic codependency! I need holistic healing and wellness before I’ll accept any responsibility for my actions!"

At least Hobbes has it right.

[Art]

If everything were known in advance for certain, from a holographic perspective it would already have happened, and the process of going through it would be totally irrelevant. It would be like playing a game of football knowing all the moves in advance. No fun at all and useless to the evolving AUM. - Barbara
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I'm really sorry but no it wouldn't. If the point of life is for the soul to experience time and space and imprint what it means and how it feels to be separate it's not necessary to have free will. If the soul comes from a place where time and space don't exist and where there is no separation - and its reason for coming here to the physical universe is to experience time and space and learn what it means to be separate it's not necessary to have free will. Perhaps the education of the soul is too important to leave it up to chance? It's like a student using a workbook to learn certain lesson? The teacher knows what's in the book and all ready knows the answers but the student doesn't. I think the soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it learns holistically what it's supposed to learn whether it wants to or not. God is so smart that He has created a Universe where the soul learns what its supposed to learn regardless of where it lives, or what religion, or what body it inhabits. Everyone experiences time and space and imprints memories of what it feels like to be a separate, unique, individual. After the soul is finished with the body it discards it like a worn out pair of sneakers, with very little emotion, and turns it's focus towards the light. The soul learns in much the same way that little children learn before starting grammar school or the way that baby ducks are imprinted on their mother. This life is not about learning to love or becoming one with God but instead is simply about experiencing time and space and learning what it means and how it feels to be separate because the feelings of oneness and connectedness in Heaven are so overwhelming and powerful due to it's holographic nature. I remember reading one NDE where the woman said that we here in the physical universe can't begin to understand how overwhelming the feelings of oneness are in heaven. The soul can't learn it there so it has to learn it here.

[Steen Bundgaard]

That's why people who have NDE's routinely say they were "shown their future."

These NDE's you keep refering probably never happened, or are a severe modification of what those people really experienced. nderf.org is not a reliable source of information. People can submit whatever they want in an uncontrolled fashion and for some reason many of the features in the NDE's reported on nderf.org is clearly distinct from the scientifical 'acknowledged' features of an NDE you can read about on the iands.org portal.

Regarding the article about Craig Hogan's assumption about a 'holographic' universe I found this paragraph explaining the consequences of this discovery:
The British-German team behind the GEO600, which includes scientists from the School of Physics and Astronomy's Gravitational Physics Group, will now carry out new experiments in the coming months to yield more evidence about Craig Hogan's assumptions. If proved correct, it could help in the quest to bring together quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory of gravity.
. (source: http://www.labspaces.net/95299/Holographic_Universe__a_new_era_in_fundamental_physics_)

So as I have tried to argue; this discovery has nothing do with the question of free will, live after death, consciouness, the brain etc. etc. So Hogan's and Talbot's holographic universes are actually two completely different projections of reality with no shared features in common except the word 'holographic'

Why do souls need to learn what it means to be separate? Why is that experience important? How is that knowledge used?

"I remember reading one NDE where the woman said that we here in the physical universe can't begin to understand how overwhelming the feelings of oneness are in heaven. The soul can't learn it there so it has to learn it here."

Souls have to experinece separateness so they can appreciate oneness? That's the purpose of life?

[william]

Free will: now that is an interesting topic.

What would religion be without the concept of free will? $$$$$$$$$ We certainty have a will to choose. Is it free? It depends on our operational definition of the word free. Free will has limitations and I believe at this time that the number one limitation is our unawareness. If we had perfect awareness and could make perfect choices we would be clones and not unique expressions of the absolute most call God.

It is our lack of perfect awareness that makes us unique expressions of the one source of all creation. We did not fall we were created unique and innocent of our true reality. Even every snowflake is unique.

Free will is not free of unawareness, which is much different then what the religious folks teach. I prefer the concept of “choices within boundaries” and those boundaries being unawareness of our true reality. By unawareness I do not mean knowledge but realizations and the soul power that goes with those realizations.

There is fate and there is destiny and our choices determine if we turn our fate into a greater destiny. I.e. soul development. Now the universe is very intelligent; ok perfect intelligence. The law of progress has something called karma or as Christians know this universal law “what we sow we reap”.

From my point of view this law of progress has provided us with a feedback loop to move our souls forward towards love, joy, compassion, discernment, divine intelligence, etc. What kind of expression of “god” would we be without this perfect feedback system?

Please don’t get caught in the trap of thinking everyone knows right from wrong. That argument (teachings) does not pass the simplest of logic tests.

[Mike D.]

"Souls have to experiencce separateness so they can appreciate oneness."

To me this is like saying that it is impossible to appreciate or be thrilled by a Beethoven or Mozart symphony played by an outstanding orchestra, unless one also hears it played by a poor orchestra making many mistakes, etc. Doesn't make sense to me.

[william]

Mike without realizing it; it appears you make a good case for art's beliefs.

We live in a relative world. What would phenomena be without this relative world? I.e. nothingness? Pure awareness?

We don’t have to experience separation to know separation. We were created innocent of our reality and that alone makes us separate.

Ok perceived separate individuals. The more individualistic we feel (and take pride in) the more unaware we are.

So much for the tenets of individualism?

[Michael H]

So Hogan's and Talbot's holographic universes are actually two completely different projections of reality with no shared features in common except the word 'holographic'

I hear you, Steen. Art is like most everyone else, looking for evidence that supports what he already believes. Several of us have tried to point out that his bizarre metaphysics negates testimony from every culture on earth - including the first quote in MP's main post - that indicates that direct realization of the essential unity of creation is available right here and right now, but he can't hear that either. Nothing has any validity except NDE testimony, and if someone like Christ or Buddha say something remotely similar, then they were NDErs. They have to be, or Art's philosophy is in the tank.

To paraphrase Calvin again (same link as above), Art's world is apparently populated with people who are simply killing time as we wait for death to shower us with meaning and happiness.

Inspirational, isn't it?

[Michael H]

Please don’t get caught in the trap of thinking everyone knows right from wrong.

I think I understand what you're saying here, William, but it seems to me that everyone does know right from wrong, but few appear to know that they know.

Which has the same effect, doesn't it?

[william]

“but few appear to know that they know. Which has the same effect, doesn't it?”

We all know at a very very deep level, as we are first and foremost spirit.

We are that that is. How could we be anything else? We are the Infinite expressing Itself. Infinite is absolute. How could it be anything but the absolute? If it were less than the absolute it would not be infinite. We souls are eternal not infinite. Not sure I should have stated this last statement, as it may be confusing.

My point in most of my comments have been that without our unawareness there is no expression of this absolute oneness that most call God and I might add we humans have given to god human qualities such as jealousy, wrath, favoritism, king status, etc.

This is why I often quote mark twain: god made man in his image and then man returned the favor. From my point of view this small quote offers brilliant insights into many religious teachings by some very smart people.

So what makes us unaware? We were created innocent of our true reality, which is perfect awareness. Therefore the origin of that unawareness (Buddha’s teachings of ignorance causing our suffering) is innocence. Stated another way the origin of ignorance is innocence. The previous statement was an intellectual statement not a realized statement. World of difference.

The only way this absolute oneness can express itself is through perception (i.e. create entities that have less than perfect awareness). But oh what a perception.

Individualism can be one expression of that perception due to our unawareness of our oneness with all that is. I.e. what we do to others we do to ourselves.

Please don’t confuse individualism with identity. Individualism is about self; identity is about expressing the will of god in an infinite number of unique expressions. I.e. love, compassion, joy, etc.

An example of individualism gone amuck is Wall Street. An example of identity would be anyone that demonstrates love and compassion for themselves and their brothers and sisters in life. As we are all (yes even Hitler) in the universe from the same source.

This is why I often state on political blogs the following: with communism man exploits man with capitalism it is the other way around. I look at this statement as universal laws in action. I.e. karma or what we sow we reap. Spiritual laws also apply to Wall Street, republics, capitalism, communism, socialism, social democracies, dictatorships, etc.

[Michael Prescott]

Thanks, anonymous, for the info on converting PDF files. This file was locked, which is why I thought I was out of luck. I'd never heard of ghostscript. I'll look into it.

Let's not gang up on Art. He's a friendly guy who's got an interesting point of view. And Michael Talbot's book The Holographic Universe is really quite good. Incidentally, James Beichler's SOFT theory, which he presents in his book To Die For and in this essay (toward the end), is compatible with Bohm's holographic universe idea.

I don't agree with Art's outlook in its totality, but that's what makes for "duality and separation," right?

I still have some questions about Art's outlook. Some people have NDE's that seem hellish. Howard Storm's is a good example. Is that consistent with Art's outlook? If there are nasty spirits in hellish places in the spirit world, then I think part of soul development must include learning to be good not just learning about separation. I also think those souls in the dark regions must not be experiencing oneness to the same extent that the spirits in the regions of light are.

Michael,

What portable device do you prefer to read e-books on?

I've been using a pocket pc (microsoft operating system) pda and handybook reader software for years and years - reading free english literature from project gutenberg, free science fiction from baen books, and free spiritual books from spirit writings dot com. I've saved thousands of dollars doing this (I guess you don't like to hear that as a writer :(. I laugh every time I read another article about how e-books are a failure. Maybe they're a failure from the publisher's point of view. From my point of view e-books are an overwhelming success.

[william]

“but that's what makes for "duality and separation," right?”

How else could Oneness express itself without duality meaning a relative phenomenal world? Duality is just a common term for variation and a phenomenon is appearance. What there is is variation and it is we humans that inject the term duality to this variation. We see right and wrong, good and evil, cold and hot, love and hate, close and far, etc.

This is why we should not judge by appearance it is a temporal relative phenomenon that has an underlying reality that few see. Relative and phenomena are both sides of the same coin. One is needed for the other to exist.

Now do we live on earth to feel separate? My view is that we live on earth in this often harsh physical world to feel and experience a greater degree of separation than the astral world offers us. This allows greater opportunities for soul development. The progress is in the process of the struggle.

I studied NDE’s for many years, in fact that was my first emphasis into my research into life after death. But it left me wanting for more data to validate my findings. I prefer the teachings and experience of those that have been on the other side for some time and those that I consider advanced souls. Such as the master-mind, Jesus, Buddha, Seth, Emmanuel, and those in the spirits book, etc.

My view at this time is that NDE’s are good, very good research into the paranormal but they are temporal experiences and should be viewed as such. As far as the holographic universe how could it not be a holographic universe? All is oneness.

Michael,

The pdf file you link to in the post above has images of the pages not text. Where did your source get the text version from? Is there another place on the internet that has it?

Also, "gsview" is the correct name for what I was referred to as ghostscript.

Also... I usually browse the web in a browser with javascript turned off. I just noticed that your comment form acts differently with javascript on. Your comment form requires a name when javascript is on but does not require a name with javascript off. There are other differences too. If you use IE you can set the internet tools-> options ->security to high to see what I mean.

[Art]

Souls have to experinece separateness so they can appreciate oneness? That's the purpose of life?

Souls have to experience separation so they can become separate. Develop a sense of "self." In heaven, due to it's holographic nature, it may be impossible to become or develop a sense of self or truly understand what it means to be separate because the feelings of oneness and connectedness are so overwhelming and powerful. From the moment we are born and we separate from our mothers and the umbilical cord is cut till the day we die when we become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind life is a never ending lesson in separation. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. Losing some one we love is the ultimate lesson in separation. Nothing else comes close. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it learns holistically whether we want it to or not. The soul is imprinted with what it means to be separate from doing something as simple as picking a grape or a tomato off a vine from going to the bathroom and urinating or defecating. When we look at a tree we see individual leaves. When we see different breeds of dogs our soul gets a little lesson in separation. When our friends move away that is a lesson in separation, and when people argue with me on message boards my soul experiences what it's like to feel separate, unique, individual. It doesn't matter whether I would wish it that way or not, duality and separation are inherent and inescapable properties of the physical universe and everyone regardless of whether they live in Mongolia or Indonesia or the United States will experience separation if they live in this physical universe. I don't think we lose our separateness after we cross back over into the Spiritual Universe. If we knew absolutely for certain that one day we were going to be reunited with our loved ones in heaven we might not mourn quite as much when they die and death would cease to be teh powerful lesson in separation that it is.

[Art]

Some people have NDE's that seem hellish. Howard Storm's is a good example. Is that consistent with Art's outlook?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heaven seems to be some kind of strange quantum reality where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality. In the Tibetan Book of the Dead the Llama warns the newly departed spirit to not be afraid of the demons he encounters because they are only projections from his own mind. Howard Storm was surprised to find himself still alive after leaving his body because he was an avowed atheist. This scared him and brought up memories of what little he had heard about life after death. Because Howard Storm was full of a lot of negative baggage and he thought of himself as being a very selfish and negative person he turned his negative energies into demons. He turned his hatred, anger, fear, jealousy, rage, resentment, disbelief, into demons - and then did battle with them. He needed to conquer his demons before he could enter the light. At the point in his battle when he finally let go and called out to God/the Light his demons disappeared and the Light appeared. From that moment on his experience began to be positive. Everyone becomes enlightened upon entering the Light. In a hologram everything is connected to everything else. When you enter the light you become connected and this connectedness allows you access to all knowledge, all information. During people's life reviews they say that they became the other person, hearing their thoughts, feeling their feelings, so much so that the knew what it was like to be the other person while they were interacting with them. The life review seems to be a holographic experience par excellance. You and the other person are one. It's like the old Indian thing about walking a mile in another person's moccasins. Most negative NDE's if they last long enough become positive. Hell therefore isn't a permanent place. Everyone becomes enlightened upon entering the light. No matter who you were on earth, what your I.Q. was, or how much you read, or how spiritual you considered yourself - once we cross over we all become One - equal - and connected. It's like having all the knowledge and information in the Universe downloaded into your brain - and it's a holographic universe thing.

[Art]

Incidentally, James Beichler's SOFT theory, which he presents in his book To Die For and in this essay (toward the end), is compatible with Bohm's holographic universe idea. - Michael Prescott
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Michael I clicked on the embedded link above and it said "not on this server?" Can you just post the link so I can try and find it? I was wanting to read the essay. Thanks, Art

[william]

“He turned his hatred, anger, fear, jealousy, rage, resentment, disbelief, into demons - and then did battle with them.”

I also discovered that aspect of the NDE in my research. Also spiritualism to some degree supports this view of the negative NDE. Art you may enjoy reading the journey of souls and destiny of souls as Newton’s research into life between lives supports many of your beliefs.

“Everyone becomes enlightened upon entering the light.”

Instant enlightenment? I love the idea of that art. My research does not reveal that to me but hey if we do get instant enlightenment I am not going to be one bit upset. Like reincarnation I believe it exists but if it does not I will not whine about it.

Hi Art,

Thanks for explaining your views. I have more questions...

Some people have relatively easy pleasant lives and others have comparitively horrible, unpleasant lives. If you can learn to be separate from any type of life and if all lives are planned to the minutest detail, why don't we all have happy, nice, pleasant lives?

Isn't part of life not just to make us separate but also to make us different? We have different experineces in life, don't those result in differences that are maintained when we go back to the spirit world?

Since the particular experiences we have are planned, are they planned for a purpose, in order to create certain characteristics in us?

Thanks

[Art]

Isn't part of life not just to make us separate but also to make us different? We have different experineces in life, don't those result in differences that are maintained when we go back to the spirit world? Since the particular experiences we have are planned, are they planned for a purpose, in order to create certain characteristics in us?
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You may not believe this but one time when I was walking out of a Big Lots store in Middlesboro, Kentucky the whole idea of "duality" and what it meant and how important it was popped into my mind pre-formed. It was so weird because the word "duality" became stuck in my mind. I was 41 miles from home by the Cumberland Gap and the whole idea of experiencing "duality" kept swimming through my mind. What I mean by duality is all the labels that we wear in life and that we experience that makes us different. Like religion, politics, race, language, dialects, gender, sexual orientation, I.Q., education, socio-economic status, color, weight and height, from the bumps on our noses to the shape of our mouths and faces and ears. All the stuff that makes us separate, unique, individuals. I think it all exists so that the soul can experience "separation". Another words "duality" oftentimes leads to separation. My best friend is gay. After he saw the movie "Brokeback Mountain" I asked him what he thought about the movie. He said it was so sad because it was about that thing I always talk about - separation. Those two guys happened to be gay, which at that time, and in cowboy society was totally unacceptable so what happened was that they were forced to experience separation. It seems that the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. I remember reading one time a woman's NDE where she said that we here in the physical universe can't begin to comprehend the feelings of "oneness" in Heaven. I believe that the whole purpose of the soul coming here is to experience what it means to be separate, what time and space look and feel like, and make memories of what it's like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe. According to near death experiencers time and space aren't real (and some physicist agree) and during their experience they could experience anytime or any place in history simply by focusing their attention on it. If you read Mark Horton's Near Death experience I think you get a real good feeling for what we all may one day experience. It's really amazing and one of my most favorite near death experiences.
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

[Sandy]

If we knew absolutely for certain that one day we were going to be reunited with our loved ones in heaven we might not mourn quite as much when they die and death would cease to be the powerful lesson in separation that it is.

Art, I don’t know if that it is really true that we would mourn less if we all knew we would be reunited someday. I do know for certain that people survive. I’m not saying I believe people survive… I know it. (Although maybe that’s just the NDE talking.) The thing is, I still grieve when I have to say goodbye. This is despite the fact that I reunited with my deceased Grandmother during my NDE and continue to see her and talk to her even now. I’m sure there are people out there who will say I’m fantasy prone or delusional, but to me these experiences are real. Nevertheless, I still don’t like to say goodbye when someone I love passes away. And it still really, really hurts.

It is so strange to read the sorts of long philosophical discussions written here regarding consciousness and survival. For me it is more of a practical concern. I’m not looking for the meaning of life so much as I’m trying to cope with anomalous experiences. I guess when I had the NDE I became a bit disconnected from myself somehow. For some reason, that has led to me making strange connections to other people. Sometimes these people are still alive, sometimes they aren’t. One thing I’ve noticed is that when I make one of these odd connections - even though it can be a frightening and difficult experience sometimes - I still feel sad when it is time to say goodbye so the other consciousness can move on. Separation isn’t any easier just because I know things are OK.

[Art]

I’m not saying I believe people survive… I know it. (Although maybe that’s just the NDE talking.) - Sandy
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If you have had a near death experience and have actually been in the Light and talked to your deceased relatives and you know absolutely 100% for certain that there is life after death, you are lucky to have this knowledge. Most people in the world are not so sure as you are. For most of us it's a "hope" but not a 100% guaranteed certainty. My mom died when I was 15 years old and I am now 56 years old and I still miss her to this day. I am looking forward to seeing her again when I get to Heaven. I have a high degree of confidence that there is life after death, but I'm not absolutely 100% positive. There are always those materialist reductionist naysayers that make fun of my beliefs and throw sand in my eyes and tell me it's all hallucinations and balogna, and even though I don't want to listen to them, and I think they are wrong, but for some reason, they never go away. They seem just as intent on trying to disprove life after death as I am to prove it to myself. I can see where or how ancient humans came up with the idea of the devil! LOL!

[Art]

Holistic learning
I used to be a graduate student working on a Masters degree in Holistic Teaching and Learning at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee. Holistic learning is a different kind of learning. It's the kind of learning that little children do before they ever start school. It's how children learn naturally and is more akin to how baby ducks and geese become imprinted on their mothers. An example of holistic learning is like if you were building a dog house and while you were doing it you were learning about fractions and angles and geometry and you didn't even realize it, or if you were baking a cake and measuring stuff and you were learning about measurement and fractions while you were baking a cake. Perhaps another example might be if you were reading a historical novel and the author really did a lot of research and included a lot of fairly accurate historical facts in the novel and without even realizing it you were learning actual history. We learn like this all the time. We may learn more when we are out of school than we actually learn while we are in school. Just as we go about our everyday lives we are continually picking up bits of information about the world and storing them away in our brains. It's not active like when you are sitting in a classroom but more like passive learning where you learn about time and space and the physical universe just by being alive. Knowledge and information are embedded in our everyday lives and just as we go about our lives we learn about the world around us.

[sonic]

I have revived people from heart attcks and had them describe their experiences to me at that time.
I have been 'near death' myself and experienced something like what the people I revived experienced (based on their statements).
These are not things that are communicated easily or would be understood in terms like 'free will' or 'the future' or 'separateness'-- each of these terms is an attempt.
The truth is closer to the answer to the question-
"Is a photon a wave or particle" and realizing human thought and logic are not up to the task of complete understanding.

We do need to keep trying, though. Just don't forget we are only talking around the truth.

Sandy-
I know too, but I'm still experiencing a human life. It is odd and exciting- I have learned to enjoy it.
Good luck!

[Michael Prescott]

Can you just post the link so I can try and find it?

Here's a link to the PDF version of Beichler's essay.

If this link doesn't work, Google "To Die For" + "Beichler", and the essay will come up in the first five hits.

What portable device do you prefer to read e-books on?

I used a RocketBook when it first came out. Later I used a PDA. Nowadays I use the Sony Digital Reader, which is similar to the Kindle.

I laugh every time I read another article about how e-books are a failure.

The success of the Kindle and other readers with E-Ink technology is creating some positive buzz for ebooks now.

I believe ebooks and print-on-demand (POD) are the future of publishing.

The pdf file you link to in the post above has images of the pages not text. Where did your source get the text version from?

Well, the book is available at different places. The PDF file is from Google Books, and was digitized by Google (as we are reminded at the bottom of every page). The text file is from something called Internet Archive. I guess Internet Archive does their own scans.

[Art]

I think holistic learning is the way we were designed to learn naturally. It's certainly a lot more enjoyable. Sitting in a classroom being lectured to is nowhere near as effective as just learning stuff as we go about our daily lives.

I think the Creator of the Universe was so smart that He/She was able to create a Universe where we learn what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not. It doesn't matter if you are a camel herder in Saudi Arabia or a nomad in Mongolia or a Shaman in Siberia everyone learns what they are supposed to learn.

You don't have to be smart, you don't have to be rich, you don't have to be Christian, you don't have to be Muslim, you don't have to be anything. All you got to do is live. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is imprinted or learns holistically what it's supposed to learn just while we go about living our daily lives.

[irh]

I think ganging up on Art isn't nice as well, especially on Valentines Day - which was Michael Talbot's favorite holiday.

But - as much as we all love Art's commentary on the Holographic Universe, there is a delicious irony in the fact that he seems unable to recognize - with all of the inherent truths within the Holographic paradigm, a broken record, no matter how sweet the song, ultimately, ends up hurting your ears after spin too many.

[william]

“It is so strange to read the sorts of long philosophical discussions written here regarding consciousness and survival”

I do not look at these discussions on this blog as just about the survival of death. It appears most on here at least at an intellectual level believe that we do survive this physical life. From my point of view the more we know about the universe (physical and metaphysical) it is beneficial to ourselves and to others. We are truth seekers and that is part of the process of this journey we call life. I.e. both physical and metaphysical.

How can our knowledge be beneficial to others? Someone that reads or comments on this blog may someday write a book and use some or much of the knowledge from the discussion in his or her book. Millions could read that book and that knowledge could be helpful to them in their own personal journey through this life and their life on the other side. We take our knowledge with us. When we cross over we don’t all of a sudden become all knowing we are our same sweet selves or not so sweet selves.

Also I understand many people read this blog but do not comment. How can we measure the benefit of their experience reading these discussions? I am elated that Nellie Wright took the time and effort to write a book with her son Theon about the mediumship of George Wright where an advanced spirit came through her husband George and gave the world such advanced teachings about the meaning and purpose and the realities of life.

She did not write this book to prove life after death but to share the teachings of the entity they called the master mind with the world.

Also a man named Gunnels self published a book called the evolution of the soul which was one of the keys to my discovery about the origin of ignorance. I am sure Gunnels had many “philosophical” discussions before he took the time and effort to write his book.

The soul journey is about many different experiences and one of those experiences (interests) is the seeking of knowledge. The Internet is a boon for sharing that knowledge. NDE’s are wonderful experiences but we do not return from an NDE all knowing. Plus not everyone has experienced an NDE to remove his or her own personal fears of the unknown.

There are many paths a soul can take on its journey and I believe one of those paths is the seeking of truths and knowledge. These comments are in no way intended to degrade the NDE experience as it is one of the most profound experiences a human can have as it very often changes their focus in life and they become a beneficial presence in the world.

[Steen Bundgaard]

There are always those materialist reductionist naysayers that make fun of my beliefs and throw sand in my eyes and tell me it's all hallucinations and balogna, and even though I don't want to listen to them, and I think they are wrong, but for some reason, they never go away. They seem just as intent on trying to disprove life after death as I am to prove it to myself. - ART

What I find curious is your denial of free will - a viewpoint shared by the materialist community. Their ultimate goal is to strip away subjectivity claiming it's an illusion produced by a set of laws that can be described and measured by objective means. Already now articles debunking 'free will' have been printed in Nature and other scientifical journals. If their viewpoint one day is universally accepted then the soul is ultimately dead.

When I so often comment on your posts, it's not because I have a special desire to debunk your belief but actually because I'm also quite interested in the possible implications of NDEs on science. Contrary to research in mediumsship research into veridical perception during a NDE can be investigated with objective means - this kind of experiments are reproduable, there is no need to rely on anecdotal evidence. NDEs are a very promising candidate in reving the soul in modern science. Something I so much would like to see.

On the other hand I also see NDEs becoming a subject of superstition, commercial interest and just like there only was a few mediums 20 years ago and now suddenly everybody is claiming clairvoyant abilities you sometimes gets the impression that everybody had an NDE nowadays. Unless you like to deceive yourself this calls for increased skepticism towards other peoples claims - like the stuff you can read on NDERF.org.

[Steen Bundgaard]

Art, there is an interesting radio show with Sam Parnia from January broadcasted on this webpage: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/archives/radio_shows/713_the_nature_of_consciousness.php

As one skeptic comments, All these stories have similar themes so it is more likely some kind of brain reaction to trauma, oxygen deprivation, or various drugs being administered. I remain skeptical about this except for the belief that the doctors main goal is to sell books.

which supports my fear that the NDE business is probably going commercial or at least is perceived by many as just a money maker business. Fact is lots of people buy these books that gives them some kind of hope. That's why I think it's important to remain both openminded and skeptical at the same time about these claims.

[Paul Welsh]

Steen
I agree that there seems to be many people claiming clairvoyant abilities these days. If only a few more of them were able to actually produce objective evidence it would help.

[Art]

I am fairly certain that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience - but I am not 100% absolutely positive of that. I have not had a near death experience - and always in the back of my mind I'm thinking that there may be something that I haven't thought of yet. When I am write I am as much trying to convince myself as anyone who might bother to read what I wrote. I like this little story about a Jewish Rabbi,
--------------------------------------------
"This reminds me of the story of the Rabbi who loudly preached in the streets every day. One day a man aproaches and says, "Rabbi, why do you come out here every day and preach like that? You are never going to change anyone."

"Change anyone?" the Rabbi says. "Oh I'm not preaching to change anyone. I'm preaching so no one changes ME!"

[Michael H]

I think it's important to remain both openminded and skeptical at the same time about these claims.

I think it's important to do so regarding all claims, myself.

Regarding the scientific study of NDE's, Parnia just unveiled the http://www.mindbodysymposium.com/Human-Consciousness-Project/the-Aware-study.html>AWARE study last fall, which will involve over 25 major medical centers, continue over three years, and is expected to involve some 1500 patients by the time it concludes. It will be interesting to see how that unfolds.

As has been discussed here to great length, the issue 'objective' science is faced with today has to do with the growing recognition among scientists themselves that it's rapidly becoming impossible to ignore the subjective side of the equation. I suspect that it will take at least several decades for this issue to be resolved, simply because of the tremendous success that's resulted from our investigation of the physical universe over the past few centuries. Science has been so successful that the ‘objectivity assumption’ is now so widely accepted that even those who suspect that consciousness does survive physical death are convinced that it must be possible to prove so objectively. I strongly suspect this to be a flawed assumption.

I’m another who found Talbot’s The Holographic Universe to be a fascinating read. Where Art and I differ has to do with how we interpret Talbot’s premise, and we differ broadly. I’m entirely certain that the cosmos we currently inhabit is ultimately spiritual in nature. Whether we use the term “holographic”, or Seth’s “camouflage reality”, or the Hindu’s “Maya”, I interpret all of these to be attempts to express that what actually is, is not what it appears to be.

I don’t have my copy handy, but early on in his book, Talbot makes this point by asking the reader to imagine himself reading something, lounging on a sofa, a lamp burning gently beside him, the dog curled up at his feet. Then he asks the reader to imagine that in actuality, everything in the scene – the sofa, the lamp, the dog and the reader - is really just one thing; and we can go ahead and expand outwards from our parochial scene in the den to discover that no matter what we choose to identify as a separate object, it is still, ultimately, that one thing in perfect disguise.

Talbot goes on to explore all sorts of phenomena in support of this premise, attempting to point out that Pribram’s premise of the mind as a hologram can be married to Bohm’s premise of the cosmos as a hologram to reach the conclusion that every single one of us is playing a part in what is, in the end, an enormous dance of the cosmos experiencing itself.

It seems to me that Talbot’s entire point, as well as that of much NDE testimony, is that we are already in a spiritual reality . . . and that the genuine objective of our lives is to come to realize that ourselves. It further seems to me that in order to do so necessarily involves free will, in the sense that we always have a choice in regards to what we accept as absolute. Art has clearly reached a different conclusion.

[Art]

It seems to me that Talbot’s entire point, as well as that of much NDE testimony, is that we are already in a spiritual reality . . . and that the genuine objective of our lives is to come to realize that ourselves. It further seems to me that in order to do so necessarily involves free will, in the sense that we always have a choice in regards to what we accept as absolute. Art has clearly reached a different conclusion. - Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very few people in this life have the luxury of sitting around contemplating their belly button. Most people live lives of quiet desepration. If you work in a tennis shoe factory in Jakarta, Indonesia making $2.00/day and you go home to a cardboard hovel to screaming kids you don't have the time nor the luxury of sitting quietly and thinking about "oneness."

But, if God were smart enough He/She could create a Universe where the soul learns what it's supposed to learn regardless of your circumstances in life. I think that is real reality. I think the soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it learns holistically what it's supposed to learn regardless of who we are or our circumstances in life.

I used to teach school and there were kids there who could care less about learning. They actually seemed to fight it. But, there is a kind of learning where the lesson is embedded in our everyday lives. It's called "holistic" learning. What that means is that as you do one thing, you are learning something else. If you do carpentry work you learn about fractions and geometry and angles and stuff.

I think God is so smart that He/She was able to create a Universe where we learn what we are supposed to learn - and we don't have to even know it. It's not necessary to read books on religion or spirituality nor is it necessary to even be a good person. Enlightenment will come naturally when you enter the light whether you want it to or not. When you become connected to the Light all knowledge will be downloaded into your soul and you will know what it is to be enlightened.

[Michael H]

As I said, Art, we've reached different conclusions. Maybe the biggest difference is that I think that the holographic concept suggests that the cosmos is "God", while you appear to think that God created a holographic cosmos.

We also disagree on other points - you've repeatedly said that we're spiritual beings having a physical experience, while I think we're physical beings having a spiritual experience - until we realize that we're both, and neither.

In the end it doesn't matter. People can and do attach themselves to belief systems much more damaging than yours. There are definitely worse things to believe.

It's also true that we agree that everyone will eventually arrive at the truth. I just think people can arrive at it while fully alive.

[Art]

Maybe the biggest difference is that I think that the holographic concept suggests that the cosmos is "God", while you appear to think that God created a holographic cosmos. MichaelH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I subscribe to the Mellen Benedict or Michelle M concept of God. We are not something separate from God. In a hologram everything interpenetrates everything. Each piece contains the whole. Everything is connected to everything else.

[william]

“now suddenly everybody is claiming clairvoyant abilities”

The answer may be that indeed everyone does have some degree of clairvoyant abilities. I feel that often I have these abilities that go beyond mere coincidence. The atheist will always say it is just coincidence but it appears to be more than that. Although I feel I have this ability on occasion it appears to be at a very low level.

From my point of view NDE’s are one piece of the puzzle and very much influenced by the beliefs of the experiencer. Often a person that has experienced a NDE will come back with information that highly suggests that their consciousness had left their physical body. Also those that have experienced an NDE come back with similar stories even children that have not been tainted with religious viewpoints.

An excellent example of this is a blind person can see during their NDE experience.

“If only a few more of them were able to actually produce objective evidence it would help.” How many more?

More never seems to be enough; it appears that we must experience the evidence ourselves for our minds to feel secure with the evidence. Realization rather than mere knowledge. (A knowing beyond knowing). From my point of view there is overwhelming evidence that the soul survives what we refer to as physical death, enough for any court of law to reach a positive verdict.

“an enormous dance of the cosmos experiencing itself.” My research supports this expression of “god” experiencing itself in an infinite variety of unique ways.

“is not what it appears to be.” As many great masters have taught, “judge not by appearances.” And look for the underlying reality of that appearance. Yes even with what we term evil.

“it must be possible to prove so objectively. I strongly suspect this to be a flawed assumption.”

Mediums have given us objective evidence and still that was not enough. Example Crookes invited his fellow scientists to attend some séances and most refused and those that did attend were accused of being deceived even to the point of accusing one scientist of having an affair with the medium.

At least no one that I know of yet has accused Findlay of having an affair with john Sloan. Again for a paradigm to change it usually takes a significant emotional event in one’s life. I have suspected for a long time even if we truly understood even the leaf on a tree we would see clearly this is a spiritual world and only has the appearance of a physical world. But oh what an appearance it can fool what we call the greatest of scientists.

Side note: I actually have a picture of a soul leaving the body of someone that emergency medical techs are trying to revive after an auto accident. A professional news photographer happened to be there within seconds after the accident on his way home from work. A local fire chief has it hanging in his office to show his new medical techs to point out to be careful what the techs say as they are reviving the person.

[Pete]

Why do so many incline towards a hologram instead of a fractal? The fractal model is more convincing.

[dmduncan]

"Why do so many incline towards a hologram instead of a fractal?"

Because it's more visually dramatic. Break a hologram and each shard contains not a fraction of the entire image, but a complete image itself. So it's a metaphor with a really high coolness factor.

And the holographic universe is a metaphor, because a hologram is an image produced by the interference of laser beams colliding with each other, and the universe is not literally an image created in a recording medium by the interference of two laser beams.

The problem with all metaphors is that describing what something is like really says nothing about what it actually is. You fall in love with an idea of what it's like, and you leave behind the real work of defining or experiencing what it actually is.

The more one appreciates rigorous work, the less attractive metaphors become as explanations of anything.

So if you wanted to do serious work, you have to first define what a hologram or a fractal is and then show how the universe actually is a hologram or a fractal, not just metaphorically.

Of course that's not the path of least resistance to do it that way, and you might eventually discover that the metaphorical approach has to be abandoned altogether.

Personally, I don't think the hologram is useful. Why? For the same reason that the RAM on your computer is not memory. Sure we are habituated to calling those little computer chips "memory," but in fact, they do not ever remember a single thing.

Just because you click on a saved file that opens up something you saw before does not mean the computer is remembering anymore than when you put bread in the toaster, the toaster is remembering to toast your bread when you slide the handle down.

The only thing that remembers anything in the system that includes your computer and you on it, is you. You are the only memory anywhere near your computer system despite how we loosely use the word memory in referring to RAM.

In the same way, we are projecting onto the hologram qualities which it doesn't have. Holograms, for one, aren't conscious, anymore than my computer RAM remembers anything. The only attractive thing about the hologram, as far as I know, is the whole contained within the part aspect which has an intuitively truthful feel to it as being representative of what we are.

[Michael Prescott]

Regarding free will, it seems to me that it could be possible that we have free will and that everything that will happen in our lives is already known or even planned out. There are two ways this could be true:

First, we might plan out our lives in detail before we're born. In this case, our free will is exercised in the pre-birth phase of our existence.

Second (as an alternative to the first possibility), what we experience as we are moving through time might be entirely different from what can be observed outside of time. In other words, we really are making decisions and choices from minute to minute, but from a higher perspective, in which there is no time, all those decisions and choices have already been made.

Someone (was it Einstein?) has said that time is what prevents everything from happening at once; if we posit a consciousness that exists outside of time, then from its perspective everything - past, present, and future - would be happening at once. Of course we cannot imagine such a perspective, any more than we can imagine a fourth physical dimension.

[Michael H]

Why do so many incline towards a hologram instead of a fractal? The fractal model is more convincing.

I personally think there's some truth to both concepts. I was particularly interested in last summer's http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14200?feedId=online-news_rss20>New Scientist article - especially the dismissiveness expressed by the mainstream:

"Many cosmologists find fault with their analysis, largely because a fractal matter distribution out to such huge scales undermines the standard model of cosmology. According to the accepted story of cosmic evolution, there simply hasn't been enough time since the big bang nearly 14 billion years ago for gravity to build up such large structures."

In other words: "we don't like this idea because it would mean we have to start over".

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, far in the future, the physical structure of the universe will be understood as fractal, yet there will also be an understanding that all physical structures are essentially "holographic" in the sense that they are manifestations of a deeper underlying reality.

[william]

“First, we might plan out our lives in detail before we're born”

If this is the case that the soul plans out its life I am not sure it would be in such detail that we still do not have choices to make in that life. I suspect it would be more in the planning of probabilities or fate. I.e. pick parents, location, and relationships with those in our soul clusters, etc.

Because I believe in reincarnation I believe the more advanced the soul the more planning is done before the next incarnation begins. I think this may help explain why some souls have easier lives than others and that new souls may just come crashing onto the scene.

This planning would have more to do with choosing fate and the soul’s destiny would be due to the choices it made when fate played its hand. If one wants to call those choices free will then so be it. From my point of view the term free will is as misused as the term god. Most use these terms to reflect their beliefs.

It appears that my own life had more to do with fate than what I thought I wanted in life. One example of this after teaching part time at a community college for six years they hired another person for a full time assistant professor.

What a gift that turned out to be as there was much greater opportunities that I had no idea were in my future. As a side note the person that did not hire me attended a conference years later where I was the keynote speaker and I still remember their words after my presentation. “Looks like you are doing ok.”

That part time teaching job turned out to be a stepping-stone and very beneficial learning experience for future endeavors. My ego wanted to stay there but maybe my soul or guide or karma or whatever pointed to a different direction for my life.

I suspect that many that blog on here or read these comments have had similar experiences.

[Cyrus]

As a guy who's been studying the afterlife about 7+ years, I've made some interesting realizations.

Among them is that even people in the afterlife appear to be uncertain about the nature of the topics we are talking about. Such as the nature of free will and God. This is evident by differences of opinion from reputable transmitted sources, and spirits that admit their uncertainty. So, keep in mind that this topic is a very slippery slope, and perhaps it cannot be fully understood beyond philosophy and conjecture.

We discuss 'Oneness' but that sounds like a human concept. 'Togetherness' does not make us all one, singular entity. Rather, in states of great happiness, joy, love, etc. there is a bonding that occurs. We're our own identities, but we are are connected by the way that energy flows between us. So, it feels as if we are all one entity, but we're really not. This cannot be defined using our own definitions and logic. We are both separate and whole, and that's the natural way of things. And, you don't have to die to experience a taste of that. Heaven and hell can happen right here on Earth. All the mysterious feelings we speculate that the hereafter will evoke, we have likely already felt and understand.

An important point to remember is that we are ALREADY IN the 'afterlife'. We're just in a specific plane where we have limitations (and amnesia), but it's still the same existence.

As for the matter of free will; again, I think there are some questions which nobody really has the answer to. But the way I personally see it: life cannot be 'prewritten' because WHO is doing the writing? The answer is God. But if YOU are God, then it's still a matter of your own choice!

[Michael H]

. . . we might plan out our lives in detail before we're born

This is the idea that Ian Lawton suggests, which is supported by a fair amount of inter-life transgression work.

The idea annoys me, personally. That doesn't mean it's not right though. There are plenty of other things about existence that I find objectionable.

An important point to remember is that we are ALREADY IN the 'afterlife'. We're just in a specific plane where we have limitations (and amnesia), but it's still the same existence.

Careful, Cyrus. Start saying stuff like this and you're going to discover that people have a proclivity to strenuously object to the truth.

:)

[Michael H]

“If only a few more of them were able to actually produce objective evidence it would help.” How many more?

More never seems to be enough; it appears that we must experience the evidence ourselves for our minds to feel secure with the evidence. Realization rather than mere knowledge. (A knowing beyond knowing). From my point of view there is overwhelming evidence that the soul survives what we refer to as physical death, enough for any court of law to reach a positive verdict.

My point of view agrees with yours, William. Yet the court of public opinion regards the bulk of our discussions here to be just so much "woo".

We can investigate evidence forever and the "knowing" you reference will always remain elusive.

As an aside, it occurred to me earlier today that anyone who follows pure objectivity far enough will eventually arrive at pure subjectivity. At which point, they'll know. And they will also discover that it's impossible to explain what they know. They'll try anyway, and if they happen to know a lot, others will know that they know, and will get busy founding a religion after them.

I'm pretty sure that both Christ and Buddha would be seriously pissed off if they were to drop in today.

[Sandy]

My point of view agrees with yours, William. Yet the court of public opinion regards the bulk of our discussions here to be just so much "woo".

We can investigate evidence forever and the "knowing" you reference will always remain elusive.

Michael H., why do people continue to investigate then? Why isn’t it enough to know for your own sake, and let others figure things out in their own time?

I’m only asking because I’m trying to figure out my own answers to these sorts of questions. It seems like no matter how far out of my comfort zone I venture in regards to questions of consciousness, I keep getting asked to go farther. I’m just trying to figure out where I really want to go.

[william]

“I’m just trying to figure out where I really want to go.”

For the seeker there is no end to the seeking. My original emphasis in my research was twofold. One: is there life after death for the obvious reason the fear of death. Two: for two decades I had had an interest in near death experiences after I had read an article by a doctor that was investigating NDE’s. That got my interest but I put my research on hold, as my career at that time was my main emphasis.

Now by research into these two interests of mine I have found that it has spread out to many other questions that are of interest to me. Such as: what is the meaning and purpose of life, what is the origin of our suffering, if it is indeed ignorance as the Buddha realized then what is the origin of that ignorance, what kind of lives do we live on the other side, and what determines what dimensions or spheres we arrive at when we cross over, do atheists really have the facts, and I seem to have a profound interest in how the human mind can mislead itself into thinking it has the facts prior to investigation.

Some seek deeply others just live their lives and both are in the process of a journey towards a better understanding of their self and the universe. We are all unique and there are degrees of truth. As someone that never trusted organized religion I wanted to do my own research. I never dreamt that 18 years later I would still be at it. Sometimes it has been mentality painful to give up some belief that I have acquired such as Newton’s writings about the reality of physical life and beyond. It sounded too good to be true and apparently it was.

As far as how much knowledge is enough? There is never enough knowledge to quest our thirst for knowledge. Only realization can give us a knowing beyond knowing (understanding) of a truth such as the Buddha’s realization. As I have had one realization in my life it removes doubt and gives us understanding not just knowledge about a truth.

Also my research took me into the study of theoretical quantum physics, Darwinism, and why the Christians believed they needed a sacrifice of god’s only son to get to heaven. Even as a child that always seemed rather perverse to me.

[william]

“It seems like no matter how far out of my comfort zone I venture in regards to questions of consciousness, I keep getting asked to go farther”

Erich Fromm writes about the difference between those that have had the x-experience and those that have not the following words:

“The non x person does not feel the deep or at least not a conscious disquiet about the existential dichotomies of life. Life as such is not a problem for him; his is not bothered by the need for a solution. He is at least consciously satisfied with finding the meaning of life or pleasure or power or fame or even like the ethical man in acting in accordance with his conscious. To him mundane life makes sense, and he does not experience the pain of this separateness from man and nature nor the passionate wish to overcome this separateness and to find a at-one-ment.” (You shall be gods) pg58.

[Michael H]

Why isn’t it enough to know for your own sake, and let others figure things out in their own time?

Hi Sandy - I can only speak for myself, but it's probably important to understand that I didn't begin looking into spiritual matters until I'd experienced the spontaneous onset of cosmic consciousness. What most interests me, both then and now, is who else has known this, and how did they try to express it? Those questions were important to me because it was perfectly clear that what I had come to know to be true was meant to be shared. There is so much unhappiness out there that to not at least make an attempt to share strikes me as terribly irresponsible.

There’s a great deal of truth in your suggestion that others will figure things out in their own time, but if there’s any chance that I might express something that helps the process along, even in a small way, then it seems like I have to at least try. What’s frustrating in attempting to express these things is that doing so carries an implication that I’m somehow enlightened, which I don’t consider to be the case at all. It seems more accurate to me to say that I woke up from a dream for about twenty minutes some fourteen years ago, and now find myself living in a lucid dream, surrounded by other dreamers who are mostly yet to discover they’re dreaming. I’m dreaming, too - I just know I’m dreaming.

I don’t know if that answers your question or not , but I will add that I don’t have a great deal of interest in investigating objective evidence for the survival of consciousness, because I’m certain that we already have all of the answers we seek deep within ourselves. Which is not the same as saying that I know what all of the answers are, by the way.

I want to be clear that I don’t consider channeled material, medium communications, mystical writings and NDE testimony to be without value by any means. I think all of these things can add a great deal to the journey, but I don’t think that we’ll ever arrive at a broad understanding of our consciousness and its inherent immortality through objective research. I will say that if someone fairly evaluates the evidence that does exist, they will discover that their preconceived notions won't emerge unscathed.

It seems like no matter how far out of my comfort zone I venture in regards to questions of consciousness, I keep getting asked to go farther. I’m just trying to figure out where I really want to go.

I tend to agree with William on this, in that I don’t think we ever come to the end of the journey. My best guess is that our awareness and understanding of existence will continue to expand forever. (I have no idea how it applies here, but as I write this I’m being continually reminded of Wittgenstein’s comment: “If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present”.)

As far as figuring out where we want to go - I hesitate to mention this because it brings us back to the question of free will - but it does seem that fate does play a role in what we encounter and need to learn to incorporate along the way. Why some people experience anomalous phenomena and others don’t, or why some meditation practitioners arrive at profound insights and others don’t, or why only 15 or 18% of cardiac arrest patients experience NDE’s and others don’t; all of these questions are among those that I have no solid answers for, just speculation. I’ve asked the same questions myself many times and I’ve come to the conclusion that doing so just confuses me. I seem to be happier if I just try and find a measure of gratitude for the little I do understand. As I’ve mentioned before, that’s not always easy to do. Sometimes I get a little grumpy about understanding what I do. In many ways, life was simpler when I thought I knew everything. It wasn't nearly as amusing, though.

[Sandy]

In many ways, life was simpler when I thought I knew everything.

I don’t need to know everything. I’d be happy just knowing a couple of things.

[william]

"I don’t need to know everything. I’d be happy just knowing a couple of things."

I think that was his point.

[Sandy]

I think that was his point.

:-)

[william]

“but I don’t think that we’ll ever arrive at a broad understanding of our consciousness and its inherent immortality through objective research.”

I agree but it may be a precursor to a realization to the understanding of a truth. Or not.

This is where reincarnation fills so many gaps for me or could it be knowledge attained in a dimension before the earth experience. There appears to be old souls and new souls here in on earth.

Working with small children this is much easier to see and witness. We have used behaviorism and genetics to explain this in the past but I believe it has more to do with levels of soul development in past lives.

[Michael H]

(Objective research) may be a precursor to a realization to the understanding of a truth.

I think this is true. Anyone who looks at what evidence is out there with an open mind will begin to experience belief deconsruction, and it seems that in order to learn anything new we have to first acknowledge that we don't already know.

The other thing that strikes me is the consistency among the various sources, although that consistency can be difficult to see beyond the cultural differences that exist. Bucke's book is an excellent example of this in regards to mystical testimony, while channeled material, like Seth, Emmanuel or Pathwork can also be mined for similarities. Same with NDE's and much medium communications. It seems to me that they're all trying to say the same things to varying degrees, although they may employ different approaches and language.

The last thing I'd note about the various sources is that I think finding the common message involves attempting to pay attention to how we are interpreting the various messages ourselves. As I wrote a few threads ago, I think it's best to keep Emerson's observation in mind. Words which are true in transition, become false if fixed. Another way to say that is that the truth is between and behind the lines. When something resonates with us, it is because we're picking up on the truth ourselves. It's difficult to describe, but it's as if we experience a little insight, where our inner experience is best described as, "They said this, but this is what I understand", while we simultaneously feel an elevation of our spirit, our sense of wellbeing. Conversely, if we come across something that lowers our spirits, it's not truth. We've either made the mistake of fixing the words, rather than picking up on what's behind them, or the messenger is communicating through their own blind spots. And that does happen - In a sense I suspect the entire journey is about getting to the place where we don't have any blind spots anymore.

Many object to this, but I'm serious when I say that no one knows more than anyone else, which is why I'm suspicious of anyone who positions themselves as a guru. The only difference between any two people has to with whatever degree they know that they know.

[william]

“and it seems that in order to learn anything new we have to first acknowledge that we don't already know.”

The power of humility as it applies to learning. In our very competitive society meekness is looked at as weakness. In our society being competitive and very individualistic are cherished traits of strength.

“The other thing that strikes me is the consistency among the various sources”

That is why I felt a need to move beyond just conducting NDE research looking for that consistency from multiple sources for purposes of cross validation and increasing the probability of the data being valid. I much appreciated the work Robert Crookall did with his book the supreme adventure. He quotes Bacon in his book. “Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider.”

“When something resonates with us, it is because we're picking up on the truth ourselves.” When I first read the book kaizen in 1986 it resonated so much with me it took my breath away. I mean a book on business improvement taking your breath away. Well now I realize it was more about life than business improvement as it was about being process oriented and life is about process not results.

Our schools are results oriented as our big three automakers as is Wall Street as is congress, etc. We are a results oriented society and proud of it without realizing the potential of moving towards a process oriented society.

We now have something called kaizen events, which of course are an oxymoron, which means of course we missed the message and made kaizen about results not process. Making the shift from being results oriented to process oriented is a paradigm shift of the highest order.

“Many object to this, but I'm serious when I say that no one knows more than anyone else,” only in potential as some do know more than others but every soul has within them spirit which is perfect truth. Bringing out that potential is the journey or if you will the process. This is why life is about process as the results come from the process not the other way around.

“The only difference between any two people has to with whatever degree they know that they know.”

“Since it (cosmic consciousness) is the concrete expression of an unfolding and evolving Reality, it must exist in varying degrees and planes.” The open door page 119.

Most people believe their beliefs are that they know that they know. Since I have had only one realization that gave me a knowing beyond knowing I can attest to the reality that there is a world of difference between knowing and a knowing beyond knowing.

[Sandy]

William and Michael H.,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. For most of the last 16 years since my NDE, I’ve tried not to acknowledge anything mystical in my life. I’m not actually sure if that is the right word for what I seem to experience. Sometimes it is like I zone out and come close to that place where the NDE was. Not quite there, but the colors and lights have the same feelings and quality, kind of like sunshine through raindrops except you don’t get wet when the light touches your skin. And there is a kind of odd living music. Sometimes I notice the music first and it shows me the way. That place smells of things like fresh snow, maple syrup, and my Grandmother’s garden in spring. I don’t know any words for how it feels. Maybe love is close enough.

I’ve been denying these experiences because I thought they meant there was something wrong with me. Maybe they do mean that. But after reading what you both have been kind enough to write about the pursuit of understanding such things, I have been greatly heartened. I’ll try to be braver about all of this.

[william]

“Since I have had only one realization that gave me a knowing beyond knowing”

After rereading my comments I want to emphasis that this realization was not any kind of enlightenment that most people associate with enlightenment. This realization happened one Tuesday morning almost two decades ago while teaching a seminar. It had to do with something I called understanding variation and how it applies to leadership.

Without an understanding of variation we continually tamper and overcompensate with our efforts and usually end up making business processes worst rather than better. The “guru” that I found understands the relationship of variation and leadership the very best was a man named W Edwards Deming. He spent 4 decades teaching this understanding he had to American corporations with little success.

The bailout of the big three is living proof of their lack of acceptance of his teachings. We can teach knowledge but not understanding.

One company in Japan did listen and learn well and its name was Toyota. It was only after doing my research into the paranormal that I begin to realize that our understanding of variation is an integral part of understanding our relative phenomenal world and why it has to exist as a relative phenomenal world for manifestation and expression to occur.

Probably more information than most readers wanted to know but I have been accused of thinking that I am enlightened and that is not the case. Spiritual or universal laws apply to individuals, families, corporations, nations, and indeed the world.

[Michael H]

Maybe love is close enough.

I’ve been denying these experiences because I thought they meant there was something wrong with me. Maybe they do mean that . . . I’ll try to be braver about all of this.

On the first page of this thread, responding to your comment about the NDE experience, Art wrote something to the effect that if you'd "been in the light" then you know, while he is instead at a level of believing. Believing is a much higher level than denying, but what I'd suggest is that we're all already in "the light" - it's just few of us have come to realize that yet, and further, I think the journey is about learning to actually live in that light - all of the time.

I've managed that for about twenty minutes so far . . .

Consequently, I don't think there's anything at all wrong with you - on the contrary, what you're occasionally aware of indicates to me that there's something right instead. That often does mean finding some courage though, because few understand that the foundation of existence might be best described as, well . . . "maybe love is close enough".

[Michael H]

I have had only one realization that gave me a knowing beyond knowing

You've also had the dream realization, William. Which might have had even more validity. I suspect that we're learning even while we're asleep.

[Sandy]

On the first page of this thread, responding to your comment about the NDE experience, Art wrote something to the effect that if you'd "been in the light" then you know, while he is instead at a level of believing.

Michael H., is it because I know that I can find that place? It isn’t really all that hard to find. The hard part is wanting to find it.

[Rick Darby]

I am amazed that the most skeptical of the early SPR members, Hodgson, wrote that. Based on your reading of Robbins's memoir, do you get the impression she was an honest and accurate reporter? I hope so, and am glad that Hodgson had such feelings, if he did.

Those who have been touched by Spirit often aren't very good spokespersons for the higher truths, unfortunately. Both these quotes are good examples — however sincere, they read like standard sold-by-the-yard "inspirational" fluff. It's ironic that someone like Aldous Huxley could write so brilliantly and movingly of the spiritual life, when he nearly went mad trying to be a mystic and as best I can tell never got much beyond a conceptual understanding of the more refined planes of consciousness.

[Michael H]

Is it because I know that I can find that place? It isn’t really all that hard to find. The hard part is wanting to find it.

I have no idea - in my case it seems that wanting to find it is what prevents it from reoccurring. I'd love to find it again, in the hope that I'd pay closer attention.

Both these quotes are good examples — however sincere, they read like standard sold-by-the-yard "inspirational" fluff.

Among the many strange aspects of knowing that we're living in a dream is that when I read quotes like these I recognize that until I'd experienced the higher state myself I'd regarded virtually all attempts to communicate higher truths as so much inspirational fluff. I'm not sure it's possible to really understand what the hell they're talking about until we've at least seen a glimmer ourselves.

[Sandy]

in my case it seems that wanting to find it is what prevents it from reoccurring.

Michael, that’s very counterintuitive, isn’t it? With the ghosts it seems to be mostly a matter of convincing them that going there is what they want. I suppose it helps that once you understand that you are dead and that some part of you has survived death… well, it shouldn’t be too difficult to accept other weird stuff after that, should it?

I have met a ghost that didn’t believe in survival. I don’t know how you could be dead, know you are dead, and still not be a believer. This guy managed it though. Maybe it had something to do with him being an engineer? Apparently even dead engineers feel a strong desire to only acknowledge things they can comfortably quantify, lol. I never did convince that guy to move on.

I have a living friend that I wish I could show that place. He is like you, he believes and he wants… but that doesn’t seem to be enough. Maybe it is more about needing than wanting? Or maybe you consciously want it, but your subconscious is very sensible and knows the weird stuff can mess up a perfectly sane life?

[Michael Prescott]

I am amazed that the most skeptical of the early SPR members, Hodgson, wrote that. Based on your reading of Robbins's memoir, do you get the impression she was an honest and accurate reporter?

Yes, she seems to be highly accurate, to the point of being rather dull to read - not sensationalistic at all. The Hodgson letters are unquestionably real; a facsimile of one of them, in Hodgson's handwriting, is reproduced in the book, and the book was endorsed by William James, who knew Hodgson.

[Michael H]

He is like you, he believes and he wants… but that doesn’t seem to be enough.

I've tried to express before that I think it requires looking beyond beliefs to discover the state of mind. In other words, believing can be an impediment.

In my case, I'm pretty sure that the powerful memory that was created by my experience is what prevents me from getting back there - it's not that I believe that there is a state of mind that holds the answers, as much as it is that I know there is, and if I do happen to catch a glimmer (which has happened several times since) - the memory of the experience comes to mind, and the glimmer disappears once my attention shifts towards the memory, and away from the moment.

Perhaps this is how the earlier Wittgenstein quote applies.

The engineer who didn't believe in survival reminded me of something I've read elsewhere - it might have been in Hogan's http://youreternalself.com/>Your Eternal Self - that suggested that hardcore materialists can find it particularly difficult to move on, which makes perfect sense to me.

. . . it shouldn’t be too difficult to accept other weird stuff after that, should it?

I had to chuckle when I read this, and then thought about what anyone following this exchange must be thinking.

;-)

[Sandy]

I've tried to express before that I think it requires looking beyond beliefs to discover the state of mind. In other words, believing can be an impediment.

Michael H., I’m not sure what you mean by the state of mind. Are you referring to what you were thinking that helped you get to that place? I’m not usually thinking of anything in particular when it happens. Sorry if that isn’t helpful. In terms of mood, it isn’t always the same. Sometimes it has happened when I’m upset or hurt. Other times I’ve found that light when I’ve been really happy.

About the best I can come up with is that it seems to happen when I feel really quiet inside and very aware of my surroundings. It’s like this moment is every moment. After that it just seems to be a matter of trusting that things will be OK if you let yourself go there. The trust part can be hard, even for someone like me who is way too trusting.

Michael, I think your whole problem may be that you are just much too sensible…

[Michael H]

I’m not usually thinking of anything in particular when it happens . . . About the best I can come up with is that it seems to happen when I feel really quiet inside and very aware of my surroundings. It’s like this moment is every moment.

That's as good of a description as any, Sandy. The state of mind I'm referring to is simply an absolutely quiet mind. My peak experience occurred while I was just shopping for produce, nothing on my mind at all, although I was in a good mood. I'm pretty sure that it is nothing more than accessing the perfectly natural state of mind that reveals the depths of every moment.

It's also true that at the time it happened I had no idea that direct knowledge of the underlying Mind was even possible, which may have contributed to the depth I experienced that day. I'd always considered religion and spirituality to be wishful thinking or something, and hadn't spent any time at all exploring such things since I'd been politely expelled from Sunday school for asking too many challenging questions. So, oddly enough, when the experience happened, it took me quite a while to even recognize that there was anything unusual going on. My surroundings were sparkling, I was immersed in overwhelming feelings, a flood of understanding came pouring into my consciousness - and my response while it was all happening was basically, "Oh, of course this is the way things are". So I just kept shopping for groceries.

As I said, I think that the memory the experience created is what has prevented me from returning to that particular depth to this point. I've read about meditation practitioners encountering similar issues following their first deep encounter with the core consciousness, so it's not unusual. I'm nearly certain that trying to find it is counterproductive. I know it's there, and I have seen and felt occasional glimmers since.

I don't know how sensible I really am - If I'd stop thinking so much, I'd probably just discover what I realized the first time - it's always right here and right now, and we tend not to notice.

[Sandy]

If I'd stop thinking so much, I'd probably just discover what I realized the first time - it's always right here and right now, and we tend not to notice.

Michael H., maybe the difference between us is that I tend not to think about things too much. In fact, I often go to great lengths not to think about certain things.

Last summer, after a stupid argument with my husband, I spent a few hours walking in the rain trying to forget everything. I was freezing my butt off, but it seemed preferably at the time to feel physically cold and tired from being out in the rain as opposed to emotionally miserable because I had been yelled at. So I kept walking, just trying to get away from my problems.

When you get really cold and tired, you do stop thinking about things. You start to focus on where you are, and how your body feels rather than how your head thinks about what you might be feeling. You notice what the rain is like when it touches your skin. You hear the rain’s music and smell the cold.

Maybe it was because I wasn’t thinking. Maybe it was because I wasn’t looking for it. But somehow I did connect to that odd light place.

One of the things I’ve noticed is that when I do find that place, it affects more than just me. People around me often feel better too. It seems like you can carry that place inside you for a while after you find it.

By the time I got home, the stupid fight had been forgotten. It hadn’t really been much of an argument anyway. It was just my husband getting frustrated and yelling at the universe while I stood in the way. It seemed very trivial and stupid to both of us by the time I got home. Thankfully, after that we found better things to do with our time.

[Michael H]

I tend not to think about things too much. In fact, I often go to great lengths not to think about certain things.

I haven't found much success in attempting not to think, but I do find that if I just notice I'm thinking it immediately elevates me.

Maybe it was because I wasn’t thinking. Maybe it was because I wasn’t looking for it. But somehow I did connect to that odd light place.

I suspect it's both. The state of mind is what we discover has always been there when we stop thinking, and looking is a form of thinking. It seems that people in crisis find it regularly, but often don't recognize it for what it is.

One of the things I’ve noticed is that when I do find that place, it affects more than just me. People around me often feel better too. It seems like you can carry that place inside you for a while after you find it.

This is true - the higher the level of consciousness we can discover and maintain ourselves, the more it tends to elevate those around us. Not a small part of that is that it's impossible to judge others from the higher states of mind - we see their innocence, and they feel understood - which is what people really seem to want.

It also seems to me that once someone has experienced a state of mind above a certain line even once, they sort of always carry it around with them from that point on. It becomes impossible to see anything quite the same ever again, and I've noticed that people tend to pick up on that too. It's as if experiencing the higher levels leaves a spark of light behind in the eyes or something.

Anyway, I don't think we can discover higher levels through an active effort. I do think it is important to understand that whatever we happen to be experiencing, whether high or low, it's ultimately going on inside of our heads. I've discovered that if I can recognize that as a fact - which I don't always manage to do - I'll immediately notice my experience tending to trend upwards.