The premature burial

Vitor Moura, a psychical researcher who sometimes contributes to the comment threads on this blog, recently asked me about a case he'd heard of that allegedly took place in Italy back in 1950. Here is how the case was presented in one of Vitor's sources:

Doctor Giuseppi Stoppolini was the professor of psychology at University of Camerino in Italy. He was a favorite with the student body because he also taught classes on the occult. In early September 1950, they were discussing mediums. The professor introduced local medium Maria Bocca. She slipped into a trance in front of fascinated students and began passing along information that seemed to be from deceased relatives of the student body. Suddenly, Maria became frantic. Another who was nearly hysterical replaced her voice. The drop-in communicator announced, "I was born Rosa Manichelli. When I died, I was Rosa Spandoni, but my husband has died since then, too. We are both in the cemetery at Castel-Raimondo a few miles from Camerino. I am asking only that you help others, because the same thing can happen to them. Two days after the death certificate was signed, I was taken to the cemetery in a deep coma and buried alive!" Maria collapsed and the communicator was gone. Understandably, the students were in awe.

On September 13, 1950, the students accompanied by the professor, the medium, a photographer, two workmen, a pathologist from the Camerino Board of Health and two government officials gathered around the grave of poor Rosa Spandoni for the exhumation. If what Maria had told everyone were true, it would offer fantastic proof of the survival phenomenon. When the lid was removed, they were met with a gruesome sight. The skeleton inside was leaning to the left instead of flat on its back. The left arm was bent up and fingers jammed into the mouth and throat cavity. The knees were bent as if to open the lid and there were tale tell scratch marks on the inside of the coffin lid. She had been buried alive. The pathologist issued a public statement about the incident, expressing amazement as to how Maria Bocca had obtained the information.

As you can see, the case - if it could be verified - would be a very interesting one. Vitor contacted someone in Camerino, who gave this reply:

Dear Vitor,

it's not so easy to answer you about professor Stoppoloni and the case you wrote us…

Here in Camerino some people is ready to swear that all it's true: but they are not direct witness.

My personal opinion, as a curios [sic] and a skeptic, is that the story you re[a]d was written by his fellows, without any rational analysis. Yes, Stoppoloni really existed, he was a teacher here in our University, he was interested in paranormal, but it's not true that there was a study course about occult and Stoppoloni wasn't professor in psychology but in veterinary! About the story of Rosa Manichelli: it reminds me some Edgar Allan Poe's tales…

I'm ready to answer all your other questions, if I can…

Sincerely

Alessandro Blasetti

There is little information available on the Internet, but Vitor did find out that the case was covered in an old issue of Fate magazine. He asked me to purchase the back issue from a dealer offering it on Amazon. I did, and below I reproduce the entire contents of the article. (Normally I would not post the full article out of respect for copyright issues, but in this case I doubt anyone is going to care about a magazine article from 55 years ago.)

As you will see, the Fate article differs in certain respects from the version of the story that has circulated on the Web.

-----

"The Return of Rosa Menichelli"

By Edmond P. Gibson

Fate magazine, January 1954 ( issue # 46; vol.7, no. 1)

During the late summer of 1950 a small group of psychical researchers in Camerino, inspired by the interest of Dr. Giuseppe Stoppoloni, Professor of Anatomy at the University of Camerino, a physician and a psychologist of some note, conducted an experimental séance with the Italian psychic, Mario Bocca. At this séance an entity in a somewhat confused state endeavored to communicate. With some difficulty the personality managed to register the following facts:

• Her name was Rosa Menichelli.

• She had been born and had lived in the nearby town of Castel-Raimondo.

• She had died in the town of Camerino and was buried in the Camerino cemetery.

• She had been buried alive and she begged that her remains be exhumed and the truth of her horrible ordeal and death be made known.

Camerino is an ancient town of about 4,500 inhabitants located about 40 miles southwest of Ancona, in the Central Appenine mountains near the east coast of Italy. The town is situated on a plateau, partially encircled by mountains, not far from the north branch of the Fiastrone river. Camerino boasts an ancient bishopric established in the third century A.D., a cathedral built upon the foundations of a temple of Jupiter, a university of European renown and a history that goes back several centuries before Christ. Camerino was one of the provincial towns that went to Rome's aid in the wars with the Etruscans. Camerino cannot be called modern in any sense -- the nearest railroad station is at Castel-Raimondo, six miles away.

Professor Stoppoloni was impressed by the statements made by the communicator and applied for a permit from the local authorities to have the body of Rosa Menichelli Spadoni (her married name) exhumed.

Permission was readily granted the professor by the local authorities, mainly because the time for the use of a cemetery grave in Italy is limited by law and the time limit on the grave occupied by the body of Mrs. Rosa Menichelli Spadoni had expired. After the expiration date on the grave the body is removed at the convenience of the custodian of the cemetery and usually placed in a common burial pit. Professor Stoppoloni examined the local burial records carefully and found that Mrs. Spadoni had died at the Civil Hospital of Camerino on September 4, 1939, at the age of 38 years. The cause of death was given as puerpureal infection and subsequent heart involvement. The body was interred on September 6, 1939, in grave 10, Line No. 47.

At the insistence of Professor Stoppoloni and, finally, with the cooperation of local authorities the grave was opened on September 13, 1950, in the presence of the professor, Dr. Matteo Marcello, of the Camerino Board of Health, Dr. Alfredo Pesche, various officials representing the Italian Republic, the grave diggers and the photographer, S. Manfrini, all from the town of Camerino.

The coffin was found to be badly worm-eaten and decomposed. All eyes were on it when the diggers removed the broken lid. The skeleton lay on its back, with the skull turned to its left. The left arm was flexed with the wrist bones directed toward the mouth, the finger bones and some of the bones of the hand were in the mouth and throat cavity and bore evidence of having been bitten. The fingers were clenched, as if in a frenzy, between the upper and lower jaws. The ends of the ring finger and the middle finger extended into the throat. On the ring finger was a wedding ring, rather badly corroded. The hair was disarranged and looked as if it might have been seized and torn by the dying woman in her desperate attempt to gain freedom. The knees were bent as if in an attempt to force the coffin lid.

The discovery of this burial of a living person confirmed every detail of the communication from Rosa Menichelli Spadoni made at the séance and it profoundly shocked all the witnesses of the exhumation. Mrs. Spadoni had left a husband and four children.

The evidence of the grave confirmed the séance statement.

She had not died in the Camerino Hospital. Probably she had been in a coma or state of catalepsy when certified as dead and had survived for two days in that state, to awaken in her coffin -- sealed from the outside world.

Professor Stoppoloni inaugurated a campaign in Italy to enforce more careful examination of the dead before burial. In Italy embalming is not generally practiced in the small towns and villages. The Professor states that the accidental burial of living persons through carelessness still occurs in Italy and in other portions of Europe. He quotes recent statistics, based upon exhumations in France, which would indicate that one out of every 500 persons in France is buried alive. In England, even at the end of the 19th century, he estimates that 2700 persons per year were buried alive. In some old cemeteries in the rural sections of the United States which were moved and examined the figure runs as high as one out of 50 burials. Professor Stoppoloni quotes these figures from the burial compilations of the French Statistician Hiet; his records are filed with the Counselor-General of Senna.

Professor Stoppoloni's campaign brought immediate support from many newspapers in Italy. Some of them reported the story of Rosa Menichelli and the exhumation, together with the spiritualistic prelude which initiated the inquiry. Other journals reported the exhumation and its findings without mentioning the séance which brought about the inquiry.

Following the exhumation another séance was held on September 16, 1950, and the communicating personality of Rosa Menichelli Spadoni again asserted itself through the mediumship of Mario Bocca. Rosa thanked the circle of investigators for what had been done and for what was being done toward the prevention of future tragedies such as hers. She requested that they continue, redoubling their efforts to this end.

The communicator appeared confused when first questioned about her family. She said, "I don't remember anything. I don't know if I was married." Then her memory seemed to clear and she said, "Now I remember very well. My husband has remarried. My daughter is now engaged to be married. I wish happiness to them all!"

Professor Stoppoloni's campaign to prevent burial of the living appears to be gaining ground in Italy. Rosa Menichelli's communication has caused a change in burial practices that may save many lives, prematurely snuffed out in the past in the horrors of the grave.

[Sidebar with portrait photo:] Dr. Giuseppe Stoppoloni

Dr. Stoppoloni is Professor of Anatomy at the University of Camerino, Italy, a physician and a psychologist of considerable repute. He has long been interested in psychical research and personally has investigated many unusual cases, of which that of Rosa Menichelli is typical. He is a member or officer of numerous scientific societies and institutions in Italy and has received many honorary titles and awards.

[Pages 28-31; emphases in original]

-----

Now, how reliable is this article? That's hard to say. Fate magazine is hardly a peer-reviewed journal; it's a mix of serious articles and sensationalism. The author of this piece, Edmond P. Gibson, contributed two other articles in the same issue, on unrelated topics ("Haunted House in Tokyo" and "Case of the Ancient Greek Ghost"), so he appears to have been a journeyman writer rather than an original investigator. From the way the article is written, it would seem that Stoppoloni served as Gibson's source, but this is never explicitly stated, and it's possible that Gibson merely relied on newspaper reports.

Note that the objections lodged by Mr. Blasetti are countered, to some extent, by the Fate story. Gibson's article never claims that Stoppoloni taught a course in psychic phenomena or that the séance was held in a classroom. Thus the objection that Stoppolini could not have held a séance as part of a class seems irrelevant. Gibson describes Stoppolini as a professor of anatomy who was also "a psychologist of considerable repute"; Mr. Blasetti says that Stoppolini "wasn't a professor in psychology but in veterinary." I'm not sure if there's a contradiction here - "anatomy" and "veterinary" could refer to the same subject matter, and Stoppolini could have been a psychologist without serving as a professor of psychology.

Also note that most of the Internet versions of this story give the medium's name as Maria Bocca, but according to Gibson, the medium was Mario Bocca. Furthermore, according to Gibson the dead woman's maiden name was Menichelli, and her married name was Spadoni - in contrast to the Internet version quoted above, which gives the names as Manichelli and Spandoni. The Internet account also gives Stoppoloni's first name as Guiseppi, rather than Guiseppe, and his last name as Stoppolini; and it says Rosa was buried at Castel-Raimondo, while Gibson says she was buried in Camerino. The Internet version also presents the initial séance rather differently, and has Rosa (characterized as a "drop-in communicator") giving more information, including her married name and the duration of her coma.

Incidentally, some other Internet versions claim that furor over people being buried alive led to the downfall of the Italian government, a doubtful assertion. Nothing in Gibson's story suggests this outcome.

The bottom line is that the case is intriguing but so far lacks verification. Certainly, if it could be confirmed, it would be one of the more persuasive cases on record, and certainly among the most dramatic. But almost sixty years after the fact, it may not be possible to obtain any further details. And I have to wonder why Stoppoloni wouldn't have written up the case for The Journal of Psychical Research or another peer-reviewed publication. Surely, if the case were genuine, he would have seen its importance.

So the matter remains unresolved. But at the very least, it does make a good ghost story, don't you think?

Comments

[Robbie]

Didn't the rosa manichelli personality say that her husband had died the first time but the second time when she came through again she said he had remarried? This is a pretty interesting case but that doesn't seem to add up? Wondering what people's thoughts are on that
Robbie

[MickeyD]

Live burial does seem to have been a widespread problem which could quite plausibly have prompted such a communication. About 30 years ago in the UK a Victorian cemetery was dug up to make way for a steel plant and several coffins were found to have scratch marks on their lids.

[MickeyD]

Off topic - bureaucrats and the afterlife?

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article2190026.ece

[Robbie]

Mickey D your link didn't work.
What was the article about?

[Tim]

Michael,

Note that the refutation from Alessandro Blasetti doesn't really refute the details; it merely casts doubt as to the believability of the professor. I would suggest two possible avenues of investigation (maybe this would make a fun group project for your blog): poor Rosa probably has family in the area, since this wasn't all that long ago, and if a local pathologist assisted in the alleged exhumation, there may be a record.

[MickeyD]

"Mickey D your link didn't work.
What was the article about?"

I just pasted it into my browser and it worked. Otherwise stick "nhs derby ghost" into a google search.

[MickeyD]

"Mickey D your link didn't work.
What was the article about?"

Stick "nhs derby ghost" into a google search. Note the snide article in The Guardian.

[Vitor]

Hi, Michael

thank you very much for the transcript of the article. You said:

And I have to wonder why Stoppoloni wouldn't have written up the case for The Journal of Psychical Research or another peer-reviewed publication.

Maybe he had written up for the italian magazine Luce e Ombra. There are many articles in this magazine that are much intriguing and unknow, like this, The Case of Peziardi (I will write the case in Portuguese and in French):

O Caso Peziardi

“Citaremos ainda, reproduzindo-o da revista “Luce e Ombra”, de Milão, (julho de 1905), este fato:

Modesto carteiro italiano, de nome Peziardi, mal conhecia a sua língua, e escrevia, entretanto, poesias em idiomas que ignorava por completo. Certa tarde, encheu uma folha de papel com uma série de sinais que ninguém podia interpretar. Essa escrita estranha foi apresentada ao célebre paleógrafo, professor Gorrésio, então diretor da Biblioteca da universidade. Este, profundamente estupefacto, perguntou quem tinha escrito semelhante página, e o puseram, então, a par de toda a história.

Seria impossível descrever o espanto do sábio e mais, ainda, o de seu visitante, quando se verificou que o escrito era a reprodução integral de uma inscrição única, a qual, desde muitos anos, jazia inexplicada no museu de arqueologia, havendo Gorrésio tentado em vão, muitas vezes, interpreta-la, porque o tempo lhe havia apagado muitos sinais; além disso, a pedra se tinha quebrado e era impossível adivinhar o fecho da inscrição.

Agora, com o escrito do carteiro, estava de posse do texto completo e lia que certo chefe bárbaro implorava a proteção da divindade para sua tribo, etc. Desde esse dia, converteu-se Gorrésio ao espiritismo. Numa sessão subseqüente, manifestou-se o chefe bárbaro, declarando exata a tradução do paleógrafo e acrescentando que a sua inscrição fora despedaçada por um raio.

Source: No Invisível, page 237, by Léon Denis.

In French:

Nous citerons encore, d’après Luce e Ombra, de Milan, juillet 1905, le fait que voici :

« Un modeste concierge de l’hôtel des Postes, nommé Peziardi, connaissait à peine un peu d’italien et, néanmoins, écrivait des poésies en des langues ignorées de lui. Un soir, il remplit une grande page de papier ministre d’une série de signes que personne ne pouvait interpréter. Cette étrange écriture fut présentée au professeur Gorresio, célèbre paléographe, alors directeur de la Bibliothèque de l’ ‘Université. Celui-ci, profondément stupéfait, demanda qui avait écrit une page semblable, et on le mit au courant de toute l’histoire. Il serait impossible de décrire l’étonnement du savant et plus encore celui de son visiteur, lorsque celui-ci apprit que cet écrit était la reproduction intégrale d’une inscription runique, qui depuis bien des années reposait inexpliquée au musée d’archéologie, et que Gorresio avait tenté, à plusieurs reprises, d’interpréter, mais vainement, parce que le temps avait effacé beaucoup de signes ; en outre, la pierre étant rompue, il avait été impossible de deviner la fin. Maintenant, mis en possession du texte complet, il lisait qu’un certain chef barbare implorait la protection de la divinité sur sa tribu, etc... De ce jour, Gorresio fut converti au spiritisme. Dans une séance subséquente, le chef barbare se manifesta, déclarant exacte la traduction du paléographe et ajoutant que son inscription avait été brisée par un coup de foudre. »

Disponible em http://spirite.free.fr/ouvrages/invisible20.htm

[Art]

**off topic**
Yesterday I ordered The Art of Dying by Peter Fenwick from Amazon.com. I'm hoping it has something new in it that I haven't read before. It's supposed to have some death bed visions in it! I love me some death-bed-visions. Can't wait till it gets here.

[Michael Prescott]

Didn't the rosa manichelli personality say that her husband had died the first time but the second time when she came through again she said he had remarried?

No. The statement about her husband having died was included in the Internet version of the story, but not the Fate magazine version. In Fate's version, she says nothing about having been married in her first communication.

I would suggest two possible avenues of investigation (maybe this would make a fun group project for your blog): poor Rosa probably has family in the area, since this wasn't all that long ago, and if a local pathologist assisted in the alleged exhumation, there may be a record.

That's a good idea, and if anyone who reads this blog can pursue it, I'd be interested to know what turns up.

[Art]

Stories always get blown up and manhandled after a bit of time has passed. Also time, like what happened when, gets all dis-com-boob-erated, and embellished, so by the time we get to hear the story there's no telling the truth exactly is. I'm betting my theory also applies to the New Testament and the story of Jesus. I bet he was a simple near death experiencer who came back from the grave and talked about having been to heaven. Add a few years and the next thing you know there's a virgin birth, walking on water, raising the dead, etc.

[Chesterton]

This just smells like--no reeks of--urban legend.

[Cyrus]

Sounds like another urban legend to me.

The supernatural is a world filled with them.

[Chesterton]

Indeed:

http://tinyurl.com/c35ml5

[william]

“I bet he was a simple near death experiencer who came back from the grave and talked about having been to heaven. Add a few years and the next thing you know there's a virgin birth, walking on water, raising the dead, etc.”

This is a pretty big jump Art lots of people have had near death experiences and they don’t gain the reputation or following of a Jesus. Of course St Paul helped the cause for Jesus as a religious leader. From my point of view at this time Jesus appeared to be a very advanced soul on a mission.

Now what is more interesting to me is how the human mind works. How we will accept and even filter incoming information to fit our paradigm that promotes or agrees with our cherished beliefs. Example I was watching a special on Hitler and because he survived so many attempts on his life (43) he believed that meant that he was destined to do what he was doing. Maybe he thought God was on his side.

Art please don’t believe that I am accusing you of being a Hitler that is not my point. I am just using an extreme example of how powerful paradigms are and how it is nearly impossible to recognize our existing paradigms. They are hidden from our view and it usually takes a very significant emotional event to even begin to challenge our existing paradigm.

My point is Hitler could have with a rational mind thought if so many of my own people want to kill me maybe I am doing something wrong. The human mind is an interesting phenomenon. By making these statements in no way am I inferring that my mind is immune from such phenomena.

As a side note in a belief watch Newsweek article they are talking about what our bodies are like in heaven. I.e. the astral world.

[Art]

I just don't think it takes long for stories to become embellished and the sequence of events changed and stuff added to where it's barely possible to recognize what originally happened, regardless of whether it's Rosa Spandoni or Jesus the son of Joeseph and Mary. I sift through everything I read and try and use what makes sense to me.

[Steen Bundgaard]

I'm betting my theory also applies to the New Testament and the story of Jesus. I bet he was a simple near death experiencer who came back from the grave and talked about having been to heaven. Add a few years and the next thing you know there's a virgin birth, walking on water, raising the dead, etc.

I just don't think it takes long for stories to become embellished and the sequence of events changed and stuff added to where it's barely possible to recognize what originally happened

I think this is the truth for most of the more sensational near death experiences as well. I wouldn't trust everything I read on neardeath.com and nderf.com. Near death experiences has become a commercial industry, some of these sites even features Google Ads. I think the only reliable authorithy on this subject is iands.org

Also there is one problem using near death experiences as proof of after life - these people are not truly death. Otherwise it would not be possible to revive them. I however think that it must be possible to prove veridical perception during NDEs - either it happens or doesn't happen. Such a discovery would bring back the golden ages of psychic research.

[Art]

I wouldn't trust everything I read on neardeath.com and nderf.com. - steen
--------------------------------------------
I am more likely to trust NDE's that describe "holographic" type experiences. Feelings of overwhelming oneness and connectedness, feeling like they are literally everywhere in the Universe at once, 360 degree vision, time and space not existing, having all knowledge, communicating telepathically, things being made out of light, during the life review feeling the emotions and telepathically hearing the thoughts of the people they interacted with, seeing colors they've never seen before and hearing sounds they've never heard, even overwhelming feelings of Love, all fit in within the parameters of what one might expect in a holographic universe. Many life reviews descriptions seem to be very holographic. No one has yet to explain away to me the amazing and mind boggling connection between NDE's and what Michael Talbot wrote about in The Holographic Universe. I've read too many NDE's that say things that I've read in popular physics books for it to be just an accident.
Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation, by Dr. Oswald Harding, http://www.amazon.com/Near-Death-Experience-Holographic-Explanation/dp/9768202092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233428022&sr=1-1

[Shrewsbury]

Something I don't understand about the supposed frequency of people waking up in coffins, buried alive. How long can you survive in a buried coffin? How much air is there? People buried in an avalanche of snow seem not to last more than an hour, and one would think snow would be much less compact than clods of dirt. So if someone has lain insensible, without sign of life, for days, is it likely that they'd wake up almost the instant the burial was complete? Otherwise, they'd be dead anyway, right? How do you come back to life after you've been buried for, say, a mere four hours? And anudder ting. How come you never hear of the "dead" suddenly coming back to life on embalming tables or funeral pyres? It just don't add up.

[peter]

Shrewsbury,

It isn't unheard of. See these stories:

http://tinyurl.com/d53ml4

and

http://tinyurl.com/cenrf9

[Peter]

This fellow woke up and asked for a drink while laying in the morgue awaiting autopsy:

http://tinyurl.com/5dsnej

[Art]

George Rodonia's NDE:
http://www.word-gems.com/death.nde.case.george.html

"Dr. Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a "clinical near-death experience" ever recorded. Pronounced death immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in a morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure."

[Steen Bundgaard]

George Rodonia's NDE is a bad example of an NDE simply because he wasn't dead. So obviously he can't report anything from 'the other' side.

[Art]

George Rodonia's NDE is a bad example of an NDE simply because he wasn't dead. So obviously he can't report anything from 'the other' side. - steen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you'd like to stay attached to your body till it starts to rot, be my guest, but I find it very comforting that the Creator of the Universe allows the soul to exit the body long before the body starts to decompose. If the soul had to stay attached to the body long after the body completely died it would involve more suffering than is necessary. I've read many NDE's where the person said that they "popped" out of the body even before a crash occurred, which I'm sure was a kindness to insure that they didn't have to endure all the subsequent pain and suffering. Once the soul is finished with the body it discards it like a worn out pair of tennis shoes, with little to no emotional attachment and quickly moves on into the Light.

[william]

“If the soul had to stay attached to the body long after the body completely died it would involve more suffering than is necessary”

This appears to be so as I read one story of an NDE where the soul watched on the shore as his physical body was drowning. Also many spirits that come through mediums talk of leaving their bodies right before they are killed in some type of accident like falling off a cliff or auto accident.

[Art]

william, I have read the same thing in many NDE's also. By the way, I just ordered The Art of Dying by Dr. Peter Fenwick from Amazon.com. It cost me ~ $10.00 + $3.99 shipping. I can't wait! It's like waiting for a delicious meal to arrive. I can't wait to devour it! Yum!!!

I have a small collection of "life after death" books that I've collected over the past 9 years, the amount of time I've been reading about and studying about life after death. I only keep the books that I really like, the rest I trade at a used book store in Nashville, TN. Every once in a while I stumble upon a real gem.

[Steen Bundgaard]

It's still unclear whether NDE's occur while the brain is flatlined or immediately before. This has not been proven yet.

I think it's a real possibility that psi exists and that NDE's are a psi phenomena but a phenomena that still depends on a living brain.

[Michael Prescott]

It's still unclear whether NDE's occur while the brain is flatlined or immediately before. This has not been proven yet.

Dutch researcher Pim van Lommel argues that the brain flatlined during the NDEs he's studied. The article can be read here.

[Steen Bundgaard]

Michael, Thank you for linking to that article. I have never read this follow-up of the original Lancet article. There is one of his arguments I don't like - a reference(I assume) to the Pam Reynolds case:

It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified.

You have argued yourself that there was no flatline EEG during the verifiable part of Pam Reynolds NDE. So I think this reference is a bit damaging to his overall argument.

[Michael Prescott]

You have argued yourself that there was no flatline EEG during the verifiable part of Pam Reynolds NDE. So I think this reference is a bit damaging to his overall argument.

True.

[jum1801]

2 quotes from "Art":

"**off topic**
Yesterday I ordered The Art of Dying by Peter Fenwick from Amazon.com. I'm hoping it has something new in it that I haven't read before. It's supposed to have some death bed visions in it! I love me some death-bed-visions. Can't wait till it gets here."

"By the way, I just ordered The Art of Dying by Dr. Peter Fenwick from Amazon.com. It cost me ~ $10.00 + $3.99 shipping. I can't wait! It's like waiting for a delicious meal to arrive. I can't wait to devour it! Yum!!! "

Well, "Art", or I suppose I should say, "Dr. Fenwick", can't you be a little less obvious? Ordinarily that kind of bottom-feeding tactic is merely annoying; but your persistence is obnoxious. Please stop.

[Michael Prescott]

Art has been commenting here for a long time. He is not Peter Fenwick.

[Steen Bundgaard]

I think it's fair to advertise for a book relevant for the discussion. Art probably hopes someone will pick up a discussion about Death Bed Visions.

[Sandy]

Hey, be nice to Art! He seems like a nice guy.

BTW, Dr. Peter Fenwick just did this very interesting interview on Skeptiko:

http://www.skeptiko.com/index.php?id=75