Dreamtime

A while ago, I posted some thoughts on Robert Monroe's out-of-body experiences. I remarked that many of his astral adventures had a dreamlike or nightmarish quality, and I wondered if maybe he was experirncing hypnagogic hallucinations.

That's still possible, but more recently I've become aware of the very large body of esoteric literature purporting to describe the stages of transition from this life to the next. One of the points consistently made by this literature is that the earliest stage of transition often involves immersion in a dreamlike environment. In this netherworld, the experiencer encounters beings and objects that are actually projections of his own mind - his hopes, beliefs, and fears. Adding to the confusion, the experiencer is typically in a trancelike state that impedes clear thinking.

Robert Crookall, who compiled many accounts of the afterlife from a variety of sources, maintained that it takes some time - usually about three days - for the deceased person to fully liberate himself from the remnants of his physical being. During this stage, the person's mind is clouded and his perceptions are unreliable.  

I have not read the Tibetan Book of the Dead, but from what I understand, it warns against being deceived by exteriorized manifestations of one's own mind during initial postmortem experiences.

The topic is somewhat hard to address because different writers use different terminology. Terms like etheric body, astral shell, soul body, spiritual body, etc. are employed with a multiplicity of overlapping meanings. But the general point seems to be that when the physical body dies, the nonphysical body remains attached or connected to it for a time, and during this time there can be confusion and misperception. Part of the purpose of esoteric works like the Book of Dead was to caution people not to be taken in by these illusions.

Robert Monroe's more bizarre OBEs might best be understood this light. Similarly, the psychic predictions made by some near-death experiencers - which frequently fail to come true - may be seen as products of mental confusion rather than legitimate insights. We might also consider other dreamlike or phantasmagorical qualities of some NDEs as examples of this transitional state. When skeptics point to NDEs in which fantasy figures like Santa Claus make an appearance, one possible response is to observe that such encounters are fully consistent with thousands of years of esoteric teaching.

Comments

[Bryan.A]

Hypnogogic hallucinations happen when one is between being asleep and awake,it happens before or simultanously with sleep paralysis.Either way going through these hallucinations consiously requires one to be experienced at WILD(wake initiated lucid dream)falling asleep while remaining awake.The astral adventures,i.e. lucid dreams happen afterwards.

MP said;
In this netherworld, the experiencer encounters beings and objects that are actually projections of his own mind - his hopes, beliefs, and fears. Adding to the confusion, the experiencer is typically in a trancelike state that impedes clear thinking.

During out of body experiences,deep lucid dreams the dreamenviroment is very reflective of your thoughts.The things u passively or actively think about in a lucid dream/obe changes everything that follows.Not only the thoughts matter but also the feelings u have while being asleep.

What your suggesting is that the initial stages after death can be like lucid dreams/out of body experiences where the environment depends on your suggestive not clear-thinking thoughts.That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsiously" visiting the astral planes.Or no?

[Michael H]

That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsiously" visiting the astral planes.

Both the Seth books and Autobiography of a Yogi say that this is precisely what is happening while we sleep. I seem to recall several other sources suggesting this as well.

To get even weirder, Chuang-Tzu tells the story in The Inner Chapters of Chuang-Tzu of a man named Chuang-Chou vividly dreaming he was a butterfly, and having no knowledge of Chuang-Chou while he was experiencing his butterfly existence in the dream. Upon awakening, he was so startled that he wasn't sure whether he was a man who had dreamt of being a butterfly, or if he was a butterfly dreaming that he was a man; suggesting that it's all just point-of-view.

Down the rabbit hole we go.

I just posted some excerpts from the Benedict NDE in the previous thread, and one speaks directly to this topic:

I cannot really say the exact words, because it was sort of telepathy. The light responded. The information transferred to me was that your beliefs shape the kind of feedback you are getting before the light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff. You have a chance to look at it and examine it, but most people do not.

I think that the more we can identify with the quiet state of awareness within us while we are alive, the more equipped we will be to maintain perspective through the afterlife experience.

It just came to mind that perhaps Socrates' statement that "philosophy is the practice of death" may have some pertinence to this discussion as well.

[william]

"That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsciously" visiting the astral planes. Or no?"

I think we may indeed unconsciously visit other places of existence. This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity. Look what happens when we don’t sleep for several days.

[Hope Rivers]

MP, explain the physical manifestations received by some people under sleep paralysis/OBE/hypnagogic hallucinations?.

I had a cut to my inner leg in one episode, I felt like I was cut with a knife, yet the entity/hallucination was invisible. During the experience, not once did I think I was being cut, I just felt pain, only after waking the
next morning and thinking about it, seeing my inner leg (high up my leg - an area impossible to attack myself) did I come to the conclusion I was knifed and thats how it must feel. Now it may not have been a knife, but the cut was about 10cm long running down vertically and had been bleeding. It wasnt there before.

Later in life I questioned the experience and wondered whether it was psychosomatic (if thats possible?) but I remember making no mental associations with being knifed or becoming injured. It was just another sleep paralysis episode as far as I was concerned, one of many only a bit more painful and the area of attack had slightly changed.

Carla Moran was sexually attacked and though the book "The Entity" is based on a true story, many find this basing to be suspect, some suggest its just the author creating hype to sell his novel. Regardless if you research these types of occurances you will find many people have had them and its not just a fiction story to titilate.

In her story she had parapsychologists witness an attack. They saw her movement in her breasts (as though being pummeled) and various other things.

Now I've never seen the movie itself or read the book, which I will have to get but through my own personal experiences I have no problem believing this stuff occurs. I think one needs to remember we are in a spiritual world, spirits exist, telepathy is the main source of communication between spirits, so therefore our thoughts can even be questionable. Physical manifestations of spirit beings only point to the afterlife more and more. The other alternative is everything is a delusion and we evoke everything from our own minds (spirits and all)

Dreams are a portal to places unknown and for visitors to enter our open doors. Are all NDEs then just an hallucination or more. Can it be both at once?

As far as the tibetan book of the dead, again we are relying on some spiritual source (obviously close to the earth plane to be able to communicate with us) for its "truth" of the death passage especially if NDE's are merely psychosomatic experiences of ones fears and hopes.

I had a predication in my NDE and was given an exact "year" it would happen, not an approximate like Meller. If it doesnt happen I will be the first to shout of the rooftops, its a spiritual deception/that NDE's a hybrid dream state and nothing else.

If you watch the activity of your mind as you fall asleep, you may notice a state where it is nearly impossible to concentrate, your mind wanders wildly, and your mental imagry becomes intense. This is the hypnogogic state. In my experience, hyponogogic hallucinations are more like normal dreams than lucid dreams (I don't know how an experienced lucid dreamer would find them) but these perceptions can often be psychic just like regular dreams can be psychic. I know this from personal experience. The brain is in a theta wave state in this condition and theta waves have been found to correlate with reports of psychic experiences. Just because there is a scientific name for it doesn't mean it isn't psychic. Since you can easily tell when you are in that state is is a useful way to identify when you are psychically receptive without a lot of expensive equipment.

Thomas Edison used to hold ball bearings in his hand when going off to sleep. As he entered the hyponogogic state he would drop them and the noise would alert him to his state and he would use that state to work on problems.

[Teri]

"This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity."

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

Compare and Contrast.

[Hope Rivers]

Regarding my attack someone asked me whether I could have scratched myself in my sleep. The answer to this is NO. It was not a scratch, it was reasonably deep and a clean cut, plus I had no nails to scratch with. The other thing I hadnt mentioned was there was also some bruising near the area, that wasn't there either before I went to bed.

[Dan]

MAYBE THIS NDE "SOURCE" IS THE SAME SOURCE OF THE "ENLIGHTENED" YOGIS...HAS THIS EVER BEEN CONSIDERED BY ANYONE HERE? DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? UPLIFTING AND WONDERFUL? WE DON'T REALLY EXIST? THIS IS ALL THE DREAM OF AN ALIEN? Think...

I was aware ... of moving rapidly upward into darkness. Although I don't recall turning to look, I knew the hospital and the world were receding below me, very fast.... I was rocketing through space like an astronaut without a capsule, with immense speed and great distance.

A small group of circles appeared ahead of me, some tending toward the left. To the right was just a dark space. The circles were black and white, and made a clicking sound as they snapped black to white, white to black. They were jeering and tormenting--not evil, exactly, but more mocking and mechanistic. The message in their clicking was: Your life never existed. The world never existed. Your family never existed. You were allowed to imagine it. You were allowed to make it up. It was never there. There is nothing here. There was never anything there. That's the joke--it was all a joke.

There was much laughter on their parts, malicious. I remember brilliant argumentation on my part, trying to prove that the world--and I--existed.... They just kept jeering.

"This is eternity," they kept mocking. This is all there ever was, and all there ever will be, just this despair....

Time was forever, endless rather than all at once.... Yes, it was more than real: absolute reality. There's a cosmic terror we have never addressed.

Since meaningless void experiences paint a far from gleaming picture of what the dying sometimes experience, many New Age near-death researchers are reluctant to accept them as visions of another world.

[Art]

I had a predication in my NDE and was given an exact "year" it would happen, not an approximate like Meller. - hope rivers
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How is this possible in a place where time doesn't seem to exist? I've read numerous NDE's that state that they felt no sense of time on the other side. Here are just a few of them.

"I was told that before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (from Jeanie Dicus' near-death experience, 1974)

"Space and time are illusions that hold us to our physical realm; out there all is present simultaneously." (from Beverly Brodsky's near-death experience, 1970)

"During this experience, time had no meaning. Time was an irrelevant notion. It felt like eternity. I felt like I was there an eternity." (from Grace Bubulka's near-death experience, 1988?)

"I didn't know if I had been in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (from Jayne Smith's near-death experience, 1965?)

"Earthly time had no meaning for me anymore. There was no concept of "before" or "after." Everything - past, present, future - existed simultaneously." (from Kimberly Sharp's near-death experience, date unknown)

"Time could also be contracted, I found. Centuries would condense into seconds. Millenniums would shrink into moments. The entire civilization that I was part of passed by in the blink of an eye." (from John Star's near-death experience, date unknown)

There are many others.

[Hope Rivers]

Well Art its true, the guide/angel I met took me to a place/room with others there sitting in a circle and I was asking them questions about my own life and one was regarding the future and he answered my question and gave me the exact number of years when it would occur.

This was my experience and I am speaking the truth as God is my witness and I swear on his sovereignty to strike me down. You can believe what you want but I experienced it, it happened and this same guide/angel appeared to a lady about a year later with a rose to give me and remind me of the experience and keep hope (his words).

Now when the time comes (not far away) and if it doesnt occur I'll let you know.

[Hope Rivers]

By the way what your saying is correct, it was timeless but dont dismiss that some angels in that realm don't understand the way time works on earth.

[Hope Rivers]

oops I mean some do understand how earth time works.

If it occurs it will prove to me that either it was ochestrated to occur by spirit intervention or that we have a definite life path predetermined from the beginning.

[Hope Rivers]

more likely both together.

[wvogt]

Recently I read a newspaper article about a study being conducted at Boston University, funded by NIMH, called The Phylogeny of Sleep. They are trying to figure out how and why sleeping evolved. So far they have taken a look at nearly 150 different mammal species but don’t really have any answers. They haven’t asked me for my opinion yet, but it seems to me that sleeping is more of a disadvantage than an advantage when looked at from the perspective of survival value. What could be worse in a world full of predators than falling asleep?

The way I see it, the brain, along with its attendant senses, is an instrument to afford us contact with the physical environment. Its primary (but not sole) functions are to facilitate our survival and development. The question that keeps recurring to me is, why, if it is so useful, can’t it keep up its work 24 hours a day? Why one hour of down time for every two at work? (And it’s not just us. All of the mammals studied so far require sleep in varying proportions except for baby dolphins and killer whales who spend the first weeks of their lives wide-awake around the clock. This is the period of their lives when they are most vulnerable to predators).

So why the necessity for sleep? Here’s an answer that kind of appeals to me. The world we find ourselves in is not ideoplastic. Rather, it is resistant. Maybe this is what it means when we speak of the world as being “objective.“ Simply “not ideoplastic.“ This quality of resistance is foreign to our minds (not our brains) and the minds of other living things. We simply cannot bear up under the constant “weight” of this foreign environment and must return periodically to the ideoplastic environment that is nearer our home--the dream world. It is as if we were exploring an alien planet and had to return to the space ship when our oxygen supply gets low.

Many communicators have said that when they re-enter the earth sphere their thinking becomes addled. Maybe this alien planet is surrounded by a kind of fog bank that frustrates clear thinking. (That would explain a lot of what goes on in this world). It is not until we escape this fog bank--a process which takes 3 or 4 days after death on average--that we rid ourselves of this liability. Therefore during OBE’s, while in the fog bank, one encounters all manner of distortions.

Just one man’s muddled opinion.

[Art]

When skeptics point to NDEs in which fantasy figures like Santa Claus make an appearance, one possible response is to observe that such encounters are fully consistent with thousands of years of esoteric teaching.
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Maybe at one time there really was some guy who was named Nicholas who gave presents to poor kids and from there the story grew and became embellished till it became the Santa Klaus Myth? From little stories grow legends? I'm thinking the same might be true about Jesus. Some little Jewish Rabbi who had a near death experience, was stabbed by a Roman Soldier, flopped down from the cross because they thought he was dead, pierced the pericardium and let off the pressure, heart restarted, and before you know it "Bob's your Uncle", his story is added to and grows till it's the Jesus we know and love today? The little Rabbi probably had an NDE and came back saying stuff like "if you judge other people that's how your going to be judged!" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you!" "You reap what you sow!" etc., etc. From little seeds such great stories grow.

[Michael H]

"This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity."

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

Compare and Contrast.

I just posted an attempt to explain this in the previous thread, Teri. I actually see no conflict in these statements.

The question that keeps recurring to me is, why, if it is so useful, can’t it keep up its work 24 hours a day? Why one hour of down time for every two at work?

Sleep studies show that our brains do remain active 24 hours a day. And we know that sleep is critical to our survival. Our minds are up to something while we're sleeping, and it must be important.

Apparently for animals too. I remember chuckling at one of my dogs who would happily whimper and move his legs while sleeping - I am certain that he was busy chasing astral squirrels somewhere. He was experiencing something, having a good time doing it, and it must serve some sort of purpose.

I sort of like your 'muddled opinion', wvogt. Both Seth and Yukteswar basically said that our higher selves are busy with projects in other realms while we sleep, which implies that our normal waking experience here is not all that there is.

The naturalists remain convinced that they can explain everything, including consciousness, all while ignoring consciousness. It's an assumption that needs to be revisited, and one that many are beginning to.

[marcos f]

"What could be worse in a world full of predators than falling asleep?"

Actually, one adaptive function suggested for sleep is that it protects the organism from predators and other dangers. To take one species as an example: humans sleep during the hours of darkness, which is the time during which they are most at risk of accidents and least able to deal with predators. It makes sense that we should seek shelter and stop moving around during these periods.

It doesn't explain everything: e.g. the predators at the top of the food chain sleep most of the time despite not being vulnerable to such risks, but sleep has other functions such as energy conservation, physical healing, and memory processing that can be carried out far more efficiently when the individual is physically still and sensory attention withdrawn from the external environment. The importance of all these functions probably varies widely across species and habitats, which is why we're unlikely to find a simple and tidy explanation as to why a particular species sleeps as they do.

[william]

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

We are Divine after all we came from the Devine. Now the question becomes if we are so divine why such harshness in the world. I mean people kill each other over land and resources. Why such ignorance? The Christians say we have fallen but that does not pass the simplest of logic tests.

Could it be that matter gives mind the opportunity to express itself? If our consciousness were pure awareness how would Oneness express itself? What would it create? Who or what would do the expressing or the creating? We are that that is participating in one big creative process. Life is about process, results are only an outcome of process.

The interaction between harshness and joy is one of blessings in our lives. There are days it sure does not feel like a blessing but then the mystics see everyday as a blessing. The mystics are aware of their oneness with all that is.

Art does everyone that sees the world anew have to have an NDE? It appears that William makes everything fit into paradigms and Art makes everything fit into NDE’s. That is what makes us unique Art without that uniqueness there is no us; just Isness.

Here is one for you Art when a near death experiencer sees the world anew are they looking through their own mental model? I.e. paradigm. After all some see Jesus some see Buddha and apparently some see Santa Claus.

[Michael H]

Art does everyone that sees the world anew have to have an NDE?

William addresses something here that I'm curious about as well, Art.

Why is it that you find it so easy to accept mystical realization as reported via the NDE experience, and yet so difficult to accept that the great mystics throughout history realized the same truths while fully alive?

Do you see Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Lao-Tzu, Parmenides, Plotinus, Rumi, Eckhart, Boehme, Ramakrishna, Krishnamurti, Maharshi, Teilhard de Chardin, Aurobindo, Yogananda, and the thousands of other Self-realized throughout history as all NDE survivors?

More importantly, why does William refer to himself in the third person?

[Teri]

Michael H ... what you have said about perfection makes no sense to me because if someone is not recognising their divine spark they are acting imperfectly, not perfectly and as you say have to be restrained or in war, killed. A mad axeman, a wife beater or a rapist is not perfect by any criteria in the universe that I can imagine and never will be in this life.

And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do, which is partly why I think it’s all brain fantasy as the Santa Claus thing suggests. At least you have to admit that much of what is said by Dream mystics is mutually contradictory. Selective quoting of Near Death/Subconscious Dreams is useless.

[Teri]

A mad axeman, a wife beater or a rapist is not 'a blessing' by any criteria in the universe that I can imagine and never will be in this life. It is insulting to our intelligence to suggest this.

[william]

“More importantly, why does William refer to himself in the third person?”
Good question? There is the observer and the observed and we are capable of both at the same time. Observing one’s perceived self makes for some interesting phenomena. Who is doing the observing? Why it is awareness observing “perceived self’s” flow of consciousness. I.e. thoughts.

Awareness is primary, consciousness secondary. Awareness is, whereas consciousness is the majestic, grand, and divine illusion. But oh what an illusion; people kill one another over there illusions, ok delusions.

“It is insulting to our intelligence to suggest this.”

If it is insulting to your intelligence then that is the time to go deep into meditation and research as to why he would state that and continually ask why is it insulting to your intelligence. Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story. Intelligence is rare phenomenon. I suspect 99% of what I post on here is from my intellect and not my intelligence. Ouch I will hear about that statement.

This is why the maybe the most profound human that walked on this earth taught we must forgive 70 times 7 not just seven times as the law provided. Not saying I can do this but Jesus realized things the rest of us only talk about intellectually.

If Jesus came back today and gave the same sermons he would be accused of insulting our intelligence. Guaranteed. Research into how Richard Gere was treated when he suggested to a large group of Americans to forgive those that flew through the twin towers. To my personal disappointment I was unable to forgive and wanted revenge in Afghanistan.

[TShan Doyle]

I've recently read Michael Newton's book, Journey of Souls. I was a skeptic, kind of wrote that kind of thing off as new-agey (I've been a snobby buddhist until recently!). Anyway, the guy is a clear eyed former skeptic who worked for 30 years and 7000 clients, relatively uninfluenced, to come up with a Big Picture. As for the immediate after death state, his research sees more mature souls as moving like a shot out of here, knowing what they're doing, while less advanced souls can get a bit stuck and confused.

As for the teachings of long tradition, i.e. Buddhism and so on, they tend to be the victims, at times, of dogmatism and mythic repetition that's as much cultural as truthful. Heed it well ye relativists.

Let's find out the truth- and I guess we're all lucky enough to get that chance, and maybe sooner than we think.........

[Art]

Do you see Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Lao-Tzu, Parmenides, Plotinus, Rumi, Eckhart, Boehme, Ramakrishna, Krishnamurti, Maharshi, Teilhard de Chardin, Aurobindo, Yogananda, and the thousands of other Self-realized throughout history as all NDE survivors? - Michael
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I'm pretty well convinced that all religion and spirituality probably originally arose from NDE's, death bed visions, and mystical and transcendental experiences, with maybe a touch of chemically induced hallucination from ergot of rye and other naturally ocurring hallucigens. Peyote, ayhuasca, ergot, marijuana, etc., etc. etc. Mix in with that a little embellishment and imagination and voila! Within a few years you've got yourself a new religion. I see parallels between the New Testament and NDE's and the holographic paradigm every time I read the New Testament.

[Michael H]

Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story.

That's well said, William. So few understand the difference. And I think 'delusion' is a better term than 'illusion'. We do it to ourselves.

And Teri, you might look at the two quotes you posted earlier again, and try to consider them from the standpoint of 'levels of consciousness' that I attempted to explain in the previous thread.

The reason I see no contradiction between the two is that they are both completely true from the perspective of the individual expressing them. The former is the way existence is viewed from the perspective of the lower self, the latter is the perspective of the higher Self. Both selves are real, (though I do think one is 'realer'), and each statement will appear completely true to the one expressing their particular view, while the opposing statement will appear ludicrous to the other.

If humanity were to understand why that is, we wouldn't have the horrors, conflicts and injustices that you have pointed out.

[Michael H]

I see parallels between the New Testament and NDE's and the holographic paradigm every time I read the New Testament.

There are parallels between all of the other established faiths too, Art. We only need to look deeply enough, and separate the wheat from the chaff.

[william]

“Buddhism and so on, they tend to be the victims, at times, of dogmatism and mythic repetition that's as much cultural as truthful.”

My sentiments exactly. When I started this seeking into the mysteries of life 17 years ago I felt deeply that I would find Buddhism the one true religion. Well it is profound but rebirth but no soul and spirits coming through from the other side. Whoops. Some Buddhists believe in souls some do not it can be confusing.

The Buddhist monk I stayed a short time who wrote a book that human life is not only worthless but also vulgar. Well while at the temple I saw a picture with him and 11 other monks who were the leaders of the sect or whatever and the only one smiling in the picture was the monk I knew that wrote human life is not only worthless by vulgar. I said to myself don’t think so. Now I belong to no organization; because I believe that religious or political identification can bias any research.

“Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story.” “That's well said, William. So few understand the difference”

Some of what I post on here I learned from Dr. Hora’s teachings. If any book will challenge what you think you know his will. After reading and really during the reading his books you may be cursing him but then if you stay with it you will slowly begin to realize how intelligent this man was.

Here is a man that teaches that nonviolent resistance is really aggression. Whether you decide to agree with him or not the book will give you something to think about. http://www.pagl.org/

[Michael H]

TShan Doyle and William might be interested in Carl Jung's observation, likely to be interpreted with great chagrin by the followers of religions:

"Religion is a defense against the experience of God."

[Art]

There are parallels between all of the other established faiths too, Art. We only need to look deeply enough, and separate the wheat from the chaff. - Michael H
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I told my wife today it's kind of like going to the grocery store. When you're there you don't buy everything in the store. You pick out a few items, buy them, and then leave the store. I don't "buy" everything I read or hear. Only that stuff that resonates or makes sense to me.

[Hope Rivers]

Terri says "And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do, which is partly why I think it’s all brain fantasy as the Santa Claus thing suggests. At least you have to admit that much of what is said by Dream mystics is mutually contradictory. Selective quoting of Near Death/Subconscious Dreams is useless"

Well Terri in my NDE (brain fantasy according to you) the guardian told me, he would contact me soon. One year later he did.

[Hope Rivers]

Terri also as far as Santa Claus is concerned or any odd manifestation, there is a plethra of spiritual beings in those realms who gain satisfaction from misleading and confusing, just as there are on earth. The evil actions from humans on earth as replicated in the other realms, or vice versa, how could this be hard to believe.

The first person I saw in my NDE was of a living person in my life at the time, so that really confused me. Then he does a slight turn and is replaced by another entity, which was a little unsettling for a bit but then more waves of peace and love started up again stronger and settled this. After the experience I concluded it was just a "dream".

A year later the guardian manifests to a lady fulfilling what he said and a few years later, the living person I saw in the NDE commits suicide. Now several months before the NDE I had a vision of this person in a coffin when I was with them.

I was shown the future in the NDE regarding that person I believe, for a long time it never made sense. The fact that the living person looked a little different added to this, he was in a state of perfection.

I knew him when I saw him but yet he looked glorified if that makes sense. The following years after the experience I convinced myself it wasn't him, just someone who looked similar to him.

Only recently I had the "light Bulb" moment, the light came on and it all made sense. Why I chose to ignore my first feelings and be confused for years regarding the identity of the first person is another story again.

When I experienced the NDE I happened to tell some people and one of those was with me when the message came through from the guardian a year later at this lady's house (whom is a stranger to me). I have a few people who know of my experiences for over 26 years, my own family even longer.

Now if the other stuff said between the guardian and myself doesnt come true, I will probably conclude to the fact that he wasn't a spirit to be trusted and that the realm of peace and love could be a replica of the real deal to lure and confuse.

I guess we will all find out eventually, in the mean time I think following the teachings of Christ is where its all at, and everything else we shouldn't waste too much energy on.

[Anonymous]

"And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do..."

Further, Terri, there may be more people viewing this blog than you might think so you should be cautious, you may end up with your foot in your mouth. I saw my own dad in a light blue, steel casket. Wearing a dark navy blazer..he had died, and it was very painful to see.

This of course, happened while he was still alive and so I was shocked to have witnessed this...it is also surprising because I was always closer to my mother than my dad, so it can't be argued that I was 'obsessed' with him. 5 months later we found out he had cancer in his liver and 5 months after that he passed.

The casket my mother got for him turned out to be light blue, made of steel and the navy blazer turned out to be a Royal Canadian Legion blazer...he was a WW2 vet. So, you may have been premature in your..SPECULATION about nothing 'coming true'.

Also, I agree about Art. No offence, but you seem to think everything comes down to NDEs..the statement you made about Jesus and an NDE is almost laughable. You have nothing but your own speculation to base this on, yet you seem very inclined to believe it without hesitation.

I appreciate your comments Hope. I also agree that there are more than just 'lovable' entities around. As far as all of the 'speculative wisdom' being discussed here about being disoriented and such after 'passing'...well I have seen people in the following days after they have passed (yes, not a vision, SEEN them) and I can assure you they did NOT look too disoriented or confused to me...in fact they looked great, completely at ease, fully away, moving around, listening and enjoying. Sort of blows the Yogi's theory doesn't it?

Finally, so much philosophy again...could it be just this simple...some NDEs are valid and some are just hallucinations. Stressing the 'NEAR'DE. Skeptics can't even come close to dealing with the best NDEs such as George Rodonaia and 'believer's come across as fools trying to defend every single NDE..or denying NDEs that don't 'fit' into their 'only love' beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Further, Terri, I do agree with you that no wife beater, axe murderer or such is ANY blessing to anyone...this is just pure unadulterated evil...and it's only MUSHY CRAP that new agers push to try and justify their own belief system..any thinking person should be able to decifer that it is preposterous to even consider this or the fact that millions of Jews 'chose' to be annihilated in the holocaust. Ridiculous..unless someone wants to 'fit' it into their belief system. People don't like to have their systems challenged...this includes everyone from scientists to new agers.

An OPINION...personally, I think 95% of Robert Monroe's stuff is garbage. It's nothing...I 'believe' that people like him really are dreaming and thinking they're going somewhere. I also do not believe from anyone (including yogis) that every time we dream we are 'traversing the spiritual realm'...and anyone who thinks about how bizarre their dreams can be ought to be able to realize this.

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify Terri, you are right... it is insulting to our intelligence AND our intellect...if some want to put it that way...to suggest such a thing is insulting to most people...and it should be.

[william]

“I don't "buy" everything I read or hear. Only that stuff that resonates or makes sense to me.”

That may be the way to go on this journey if there is any approach as a way to go. Once in a while I find something that does not agree with me and almost have to force myself to read it or view it. Why do that?

I constantly see paradigm paralysis all around me and I know that I am not immune to this phenomenon. I believe that anyone that thinks they are immune to this part of their life is in the deepest of denial. I.e. they have facts and you who don’t agree with their cherished beliefs don’t know how to think.

It is almost impossible to see outside our existing system of beliefs. I just saw a movie this week called “the kingdom” not a very good movie but the ending had a profound message. Don’t want to give it away but those two sentences at the end really captured the absurdity of war and hatred and the belief by both sides of the conflict that god is on “their” side.

When we fought the American civil war both sides thought it was a “fact” that god was on their side. Love that word fact. Why not maybe? Fewer wars if we say maybe instead of fact.

“this is just pure unadulterated evil...and it's only MUSHY CRAP that new agers push to try and justify their own belief system..any thinking person should be able to decifer that it is preposterous to even consider this”

Bet you anonymous believe that you are a thinking person and the new age folks as you put it are not. What I find fascinating is the atheists and the religious have so much in common. They think the other side does not know how to think like they do. They are both mired in self-righteousness, not out of certainty but doubt.

That was one of my greatest discoveries when I started my research into the mysterious of life I believed that the atheists would be opened minded people after all they were not mired down in religious dogma. Boy was I wrong the atheists as nonbelievers can be as hindered by their beliefs as the religious fundamentalist. Yes also the new age folks can be mired down by their beliefs.

Anonymous: Dr Hora’s book would be an interesting read for you. Expect some sleepless nights because he challenges just about everything Christians and atheists hold near and dear to their way of thinking. Been there, done that.

[Teri]

Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though its a shame you chose not to be a real person. That stuff about a conditioned intellect is completely meaningless to me. If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being. In other words they would be horrified and frightened. Somebody please dare to tell me I'm wrong. You can put your 'conditioned intellect' in your pipe and smoke it with your other brain fantasy substances.

[The Major]

I also agree. Sometimes I think opinions on how the after life wil be should be informed by the way we live our lives as well.

Sometimes I think that the spiritualist kind of thinking aims towards all becoming the same. However, we're all so vastly different in our characters what would be the point of this? There may be some subjects where a sense of morality will be shared (i.e. lack of tolerance for murder, rape etc), but there are others where people will differ.

There's a lot of talk on here about Yogis and Buddhist monks. Their view of life would be vastly different from someone in the western world. Who knows? Maybe their view is 'correct' and we should go with our lives back to basics. Reject materialism and capitalism and all its problems.

However, maybe we're supposed to learn the truths about our lives. From our point of views. Our culture. Our belief systems.

Sometimes it's worth asking 'pop culture' questions to your afterlife beliefs.

[Teri]

Tshan Doyle if you read Newton's books carefully you will see that he leads his subjects into the kind of dream he wants them to have. Leading questions and statements. Also a lot arrive on his couch with his own preconceptions. It's obvious to me. If you disagree, also see how stereotyped his stuff is...he ensures it fits into his own pattern. No simple merging with the Total Light in Newton is permitted.

[william]

Teri I agree with you I have found that many of Newton’s writings do not cross validate with some of the information that spirits are saying coming through mediums. But many do and it would take too long on here to explain those that I feel do agree with my observations. Research into the mysteries of life is not for the faint of heart. A fact one day can become a dogma the next day and that can cause much mental pain and sleepless nights.

“Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though it’s a shame you chose not to be a real person.”

And what makes anonymous sane to you? Why of course he agrees with your beliefs. That is how the mind (i.e. ego) works it loves to read those facts from others that agrees with its facts. It gives us self-confirmation (self confirmatory ideation) and is based in doubt not certainty.

Teri try to go deeper than just agreement. Like attracts like but sometimes those teachings that are exact opposite of our beliefs can widen our horizon or not. Sorry just gave unsolicited advice and I suspect it will go over like a lead balloon. But if you are upset with me that may be a good thing.

“If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being”

Absolutely correct Teri. I think I just posted on here that I suspect 99% of my comments are intellectual and not intelligence. They come from my research and not realization. Huge difference. At least not my definition of intelligence. We humans are very very low on the intelligent scale and constantly confuse intellectual aptitude with intelligence.

Jesus was very very ok incredibly intelligent that is why if he came back and gave his identical sermons within days after 9/11 that he gave 2000 years ago I believe he would be arrested as a traitor and may even be jailed without a trial and maybe even tortured. I.e. he would be rejected and accused of heresy by the very people that claim to follow him.

You have got to admit Teri God (mind) sure created a variety of folks with a variety of beliefs. Creates great drama. Thanks for posting comments Teri love this dialog.

[Anonymous]

William you said: "Anonymous: Dr Hora’s book would be an interesting read for you. Expect some sleepless nights because he challenges just about everything Christians and atheists hold near and dear to their way of thinking. Been there, done that."

ANSWER: William, would DR. HORA have some sleepless nights because Christians and atheists challenge just about everything HE holds near and dear to his heart? Why should the others have sleepless nights but not he? (see what I mean about new agers defending the own beliefs and not liking it challenged?)

Then William said: "What I find fascinating is the atheists and the religious have so much in common. They think the other side does not know how to think like they do. They are both mired in self-righteousness, not out of certainty but doubt."

ANSWER: Just tell a new ager that such a things as "evil" exists and see if they feel that you "know how to think as well as they do". Try it and see. In fact, try it on yourself and see. Is this conclusion you have reached based on your research? How do you know your research is CORRECT? Or do you "just know" ?

Furthermore, I don't know if you're implying that I'm an atheist or not...if you are, I don't know how you would arrive at that conclusion, I see dead people, remember? What I have said about what I see contradicts some of the bizzare things that your yogis have said, do you ASSUME that I'm wrong? Why would I be wrong and they just be right? Or do you "just know" ?

Teri said: "That stuff about a conditioned intellect is completely meaningless to me. If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being. In other words they would be horrified and frightened. Somebody please dare to tell me I'm wrong."

ANSWER: I totally agree with you. I'm not sure, based on your comments, though, if you are implying there is no life beyond this present physical...if you are, I must tell you that you are incorrect. Can I tell you exactly what it is? No. Can anyone? No. Why? Because it is not to be known on a global scale...there is a reason.

Also, Terri, about NDEs...if all of them are hokum, how would we explain blind people who are able to see and describe events while clinically dead? They are many of these available to view. Also, take a look at George Rodonaia's NDE (3 days), there is no way for science to deal with this one. This does not mean all of these are legit, I'm convinced some are concocted and some are hallucinations.

Yes, William, this is my OPINION.

Terri also said: "Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though its a shame you chose not to be a real person."

ANSWER: Now why be unkind when I have not done anything illegal or immoral? Be nice! There may be more of a reason for it than you are aware of...

[william]

For your edification anonymous.

Dr Hora’s Parameters of Progress
Eleven principles

1. Thou shalt have no other interests before the good of God, which is spiritual.
2. Take no thought for what should be or what should not be; seek ye first to know the good of God, which already is.
3. There is no interaction anywhere; there is only omni-action everywhere.
4. Yes is good, but no is also good.
5. God helps those who let him.
6. If you know what, you know how.
7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.
8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.
9. Reality cannot be experienced or imagined; it can, however be realized.
10. The understanding of what really is; abolishes all that seems to be.
11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them.

I violated number 11 but then I am known to do that from time to time. :-) Intellectualism I suspect.

[Anonymous]

William said: "And what makes anonymous sane to you? Why of course he agrees with your beliefs. That is how the mind (i.e. ego) works it loves to read those facts from others that agrees with its facts. It gives us self-confirmation (self confirmatory ideation) and is based in doubt not certainty."

ANSWER: William, do you find that you frequently "go deeper" with those of other beliefs than your own and consider the possibility that theirs may have validity? Or do you find that you "agree" with your own kind? If so, why is this? How much, for example, since you brought it up, do you "go deeper" (for yourself) with Christians? Or do you just consider yourself wiser than others?

[Anonymous]

William said: 11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them. I violated number 11 but then I am known to do that from time to time. :-) Intellectualism I suspect.

ANSWER: Do you mean that you are more learned than I William? My mind is unreceptive and you are just enlightened? If it implies this, do you frequently judge others? If so, upon what do you base your decision as to whether or not your judgement/assessment is correct? YOUR own "intellect"? Do you think your "intellect" might be more appropriately termed your "ego"? Do you seek to "enlighten" those who don't think as you do, to benefit THEM?

That you seem oblivious to your own ego and and judgemental tendencies amazes me.

[Anonymous]

FURTHER:

Jesus was very very ok incredibly intelligent that is why if he came back and gave his identical sermons within days after 9/11 that he gave 2000 years ago I believe he would be arrested as a traitor and may even be jailed without a trial and maybe even tortured. I.e. he would be rejected and accused of heresy by the very people that claim to follow him.

ANSWER: And exactly how is it that you KNOW this William? What if you're incorrect? How do you know you aren't incorrect?

William said: But if you are upset with me that may be a good thing.

ANSWER: Glad to hear this statement from you. Are my questions to you causing you to be even slightly anxious? If so, you will agree that it is a good thing.

[Anonymous]

One last thing, perhaps you will want to remember this principle as you post comments William:

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.

[Anonymous]

And I noticed that you sidestepped this comment William:

ANSWER: William, would DR. HORA have some sleepless nights because Christians and atheists challenge just about everything HE holds near and dear to his heart? Why should the others have sleepless nights but not he?

[Michael Prescott]

I'm thinking the same might be true about Jesus.

I don't know about Jesus, but St. Paul appears to have had an NDE or at least an OBE. He is usually assumed to be speaking of himself when he writes:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4; Today's New International Version)

Although this account is often taken to refer to the "road to Damascus" experience, there is no certainty of this. It may have been a different experience altogether. Paul had many opportunities to have an NDE; by his own account he faced severe punishment and imminent death many times. And if he was apt to pray deeply and to achieve a state of religious transport, he may have been prone to OBEs as well.

[H]

Gee Michael. Reading your blog is like watching a replay of my thinking of 25 years ago, including the same reading material. Not that my thinking has changed.

I’d like to relate a personal hypnogogic experience. As a preface, I am not a Buddhist and my knowledge of Buddhism is limited to reading a couple of books and what a few people have told me.

Once I partially woke up in the middle of the night. I assume I was in what is called the hypnogogic state. There was a feeling of being very far removed from my normal self. It was not an OBE, but a different state of consciousness. A famous Zen story that I had read about a long time prior was recalled. In the story, a spiritual seeker makes great efforts to force a great sage (Bodhidharma, the First Patriarch) to pay attention to him and allow him to become a disciple. The sage finally relents and asks him, well what do you want? The seeker (Huiko, later to become the Second Patriarch) begs the master, please pacify my mind. The master says, bring me your mind and show it to me. Huiko says, well, when I look for my mind, I can't find it. The master replies, There! I have pacified your mind! Huiko then experiences a satori of the instantaneous Zen type.

When this was recalled, I experienced a kind of objective view of the thinking process. It was as if when you are reading, you stop paying attention to the meaning, and only see the printed letters. The thoughts were not "my" thoughts, they were just an irritating feeling that could be ignored. There was a kind of realization that all my feelings of anxiety in the waking world are due to my thoughts, and that as long as I could see my thoughts objectively and how they weave this spell of anxiety, I could have the "pacified" state of being. What is remarkable is that I was somehow having the Zen story illustrated by direct experience.

Since then, I often have the experience, usually in the morning, between sleeping and waking, of being in that "far-away" condition where my anxiety-ridden waking self has not yet taken over, and I can watch it take over as I awaken usually over a period of a few seconds to a minute or so. The contrast between the states is very amazing to experience, because the half-awake state is very blissful on those occasions. It is seen that the waking state, with its anticipatory anxieties, is just a state and not my true, deeper self. I try to absorb this lesson of “Let not your hearts be troubled” into my waking state but it is difficult.

[Art]

Paul had many opportunities to have an NDE; by his own account he faced severe punishment and imminent death many times. And if he was apt to pray deeply and to achieve a state of religious transport, he may have been prone to OBEs as well. - Michael Prescott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Didn't American Indians used to go on Vision Quests? They'd go running somewhere in the wilds or to the top of a mountain, not eat or drink anything, and sit there till they had visions? That's another way of having visions. I guess anything that interferes with the usual way our brains work might initiate visions. Peyote, marijuana, ergot of rye, certain cactus, licking a toad, etc. might be enough to short circuit the part of the brain that keeps us from having visions or hallucinations (or whatever the heck they are? I don't know.) Is it real? I don't know that either although I sometimes suspicion it is. Maybe just a different kind of reality.

[Hope Rivers]

I have had spontaneous visions Art, and I don't do drugs fullstop, nor do I have to starve myself or lick a toad.

I think your stereotyping way too much regarding these things, I can appreciate people feeling comfortable with tidy little boxes but it doesnt make it correct.

[Michael H]

The thoughts were not "my" thoughts, they were just an irritating feeling that could be ignored. There was a kind of realization that all my feelings of anxiety in the waking world are due to my thoughts, and that as long as I could see my thoughts objectively and how they weave this spell of anxiety, I could have the "pacified" state of being.

This is an excellent description of a brief experience of the ‘higher self’, H. What most don’t seem to understand it is that always our own thoughts that trouble us. I think understanding this sooner, rather than later, is important for several reasons.

First, it allows us to live in what appears to be an imperfect world with an enhanced sense of peace ourselves. I’m convinced that we all tend to want to change things – we want to change our jobs, change our homes, change our partners (often literally!), change our families, change our countries, change the planet. We all seem to be convinced that if only everything else would change, things would be just fine. But what do any of us have direct control over actually changing? Maharshi once commented that it was easier to wear shoes than cover the earth in leather.

Second, if it was a common understanding that it was reactivity to thought that is the ultimate source of the atrocities mentioned by Teri and Anonymous, there would be fewer and fewer atrocities. Here’s the rub, though. Understanding this simple statement can and will occur, but it will only happen one person at a time. Once someone has done so themselves, they may be in a position to try and help another see it: but it always starts with one individual. When Teri, Anonymous and others correctly identify the various horrors that humans inflict upon each other, they are focusing on the manifestations, rather than the source of the problem. The source is the widespread misunderstanding of who we really are, and the horrors are the manifestations of that misunderstanding. I don’t know how it is possible to solve the problems unless we first identify the source within ourselves. “Physician, heal thyself.”

The last thing that I think is important has to do with the subject of this thread. I suspect that what we experience following death is strongly influenced by our own thoughts, and there is a chance that some will be “deceived by exteriorized manifestations of one's own mind during initial postmortem experiences”, as MP put it. I'd suggest that the more we understand how our thoughts influence our experience of life, moment-to-moment, right here and right now, the more equipped we will be when we do eventually pass.

I’ll add that I think anyone reading and contributing to this thread is already well ahead of the game, simply because everyone here has a genuine interest in whether there is more to life than what we’re told, who we really are, and what the point of existence is. I’m afraid that our current social institutions, including our religions in their current state, are not particularly helpful in leading people to realize for themselves the answers to the big questions. There’s plenty of institutional help in regards to telling us what to think, but not so much interest, or even an understanding, in regards to how much our thinking influences our lives. Art’s earlier point is a good one - don't "buy" everything you read or hear. Only that stuff that resonates or makes sense to you. I’d only add that I personally tend to accept things that raise my spirits, things I associate with positive feelings, and reject things that do not. But that’s just me.

If anyone chooses to doubt that it is our thoughts that inform our perspectives and our responses, they only need read through the heated exchanges on this thread to see it in action.

[Hope Rivers]

"The measure you give will be the measure you get."

Quoting Jesus Christ (Mark 4:24)

[Teri]

Anonymous…You say you see dead people. Really? May I ask why you or Marcel or others that may claim this don’t actually ask them what’s going on in their world? Or ask why we all incarnate? Or what God’s purpose is. If I had this skill or power, it’s the first thing I’d ask, and I really don’t understand why it’s apparently not the main issue with you. It makes me suspicious that what you experience is just hallucination or telepathy.

Michael H…“I don’t know how it is possible to solve the problems unless we first identify the source within ourselves. “Physician, heal thyself.”

It is nice of you to respond to my posting, but to me, you are still missing the point. My point was about people with evil, criminal intent. Very selfish people. Assuming I am one of those that is “ahead of the game” as you put it, I would not have evil, criminal intent, would I? Sartre once said that Hell is Other People…*SOME* other people is what he meant. ‘Healing myself’ will not heal other people who share and despoil my world. I really don’t understand what you expect of me...I am not despoiling anybody’s world…I hope.

[Michael Prescott]

My point was about people with evil, criminal intent. Very selfish people.

I understand very well what you're saying, Teri, and at times I feel the same way. At other times, I find myself believing that even the most cruel, destructive behavior is part of a larger plan. The comet that wiped out the dinosaurs was a tremendously destructive event, but from the perspective of 65 million years we can see that it paved the way for the rise of mammals, including humans. Maybe the bad things in our world today serve a similar long-range purpose that we cannot begin to grasp.

I also wonder if there isn't some truth in the adage that everyone, even the worst of us, is "doing the best he can." On the surface this sounds absurd and offensive. How can a drug-dealing gangbanger who wipes out rival gang members in a drive-by shooting be doing the best he can? But then, it's possible that if I had grown up in the same circumstances as that gangbanger, I would have turned out just like him. I might have concluded that there is no way to survive in the world except through violence, and that any attempt at kindness or decency would only be turned against me. In other words, in the context of what that person has learned and experienced, his behavior may make perfect sense.

That doesn't mean he shouldn't be locked up. It does mean that we can try to understand bad behavior even as we take the steps necessary to stop it.

The purpose of such understanding is not primarily to make things easier on the criminals. The main purpose is to make things easier on ourselves, by resolving some of the anger and resentment that can lead to feelings of separation, with its concomitant anxiety and loneliness.

[Michael H]

‘Healing myself’ will not heal other people who share and despoil my world. I really don’t understand what you expect of me...I am not despoiling anybody’s world…I hope.

I think that the more we heal ourselves, the more we’re in a position to help others heal themselves, Teri. And honestly, I don't think we should concern ourselves with what anyone else expects of us. As far as I’m concerned, I think we need to ask what we expect of ourselves.

You made an earlier comment that I want to address as well, when you wrote:

If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being. In other words they would be horrified and frightened. Somebody please dare to tell me I'm wrong.

Well . . . you might be wrong. I can’t locate the source, but there was a story that was prominently reported some time ago that indicated that the state-of-mind of the intended victim can have a dramatic effect on the outcome of a criminal encounter. MP may have posted something about this when it happened, if I recall correctly. (Do you remember this, Michael?)

Anyway, I may have some details wrong, but there was a small party involving families and children being held in a backyard. I believe this happened in Washington, DC. As they were enjoying themselves, a stranger entered the yard, brandishing a weapon, intent on robbery. Rather than reacting from fear and horror, one of the guests greeted this man in a calm, pleasant tone and engaged the intruder in simple conversation, eventually inviting him to join them and enjoy some wine and cheese!

And here’s what’s remarkable. He did! For some reason, the stranger lost interest in his nefarious intentions, put away his weapon and joined the party long enough for another guest to call the police, who arrived and arrested him. Everyone at the party was dumbfounded by what had occurred, but it does appear to support the idea that even in these circumstances, our responses can strongly influence the outcome, which in this case could have been tragic.

I think we all know that our little planet is filled with some bad stuff, Teri. But it’s filled with some beautiful stuff, too. It seems to me that the only questions we can rightfully ask is, “What do I want to give life to?”, and “Who do I want to be?”

And then act from the answer.

[william]

“What do I want to give life to?”, and “Who do I want to be?”
“And then act from the answer.”

Wanting and not wanting may be the two greatest sources of our misery in our life. Hitler wanted to create a society based on what. Some Muslims want to be martyrs why? Not wanting to read or meditate on anything outside of our conditioned cherished beliefs may bring us some level of comfort, but.

They were interviewing a Muslim terrorist in a Jewish jail and they asked him why he agreed to be a suicide bomber. He stated that he “wanted” to go to heaven and be with 72 virgins or something to that effect. Then the journalist asked him would a God of spirit be interested in providing you with eternal physical sex with 72 virgins? He stated, “I had not really given that any thought”. And so it goes with our conditioned cherished beliefs.

[william]

I think that these three principles quoted earlier may address some of what we are discussing here.

“10. The understanding of what really is; abolishes all that seems to be.

8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.”

From my point of view these three are profound principles and it is one thing to know about them (Buddhist lower knowledge) and quite another to understand them (Buddhist higher knowledge). I.e. intellectualism verses realization.

If anywhere on this blog ever; I have claimed enlightenment please refer me to that comment and I shall deeply apologize for making that statement. I think the confusion is in my writing style or lack of, that gives readers the impression I am claiming such things. Working on that one. Maybe I need to use the word maybe more often.

As far as enlightenment, what is enlightenment? Do we really know and how many of us could even agree upon the operational definition of enlightenment?

Like the word God there may be a whole host of definitions for enlightenment. From my point of view enlightenment is just a small baby step in our total journey back to our home i.e. perfect awareness.

We are gods in the making yes even the so-called evil ones that do evil deeds. How can that be? I suspect due to the most efficient and effective “system” “law” “reality” or whatever known to humankind. Hope quoted it "The measure you give will be the measure you get." I see this reality everyday of my life not only in my life but also in other people’s lives. It is like perfection in action.

Now evil is nonexistent until of course someone harms me or my son or my grandchildren then I strongly suspect it is very real in my mind but that does make it a reality. What does exist is ignorance or our unawareness of our true self. Now what is the origin of that unawareness; that I would love to dialog about, intellectually of course? But maybe intellectual knowledge is a precursor to intelligence. I.e. realization. Or not.

[Michael H]

In other words, in the context of what that person has learned and experienced, his behavior may make perfect sense.

This is the essential point, MP. I'd actually say that everyone's behavior does make perfect sense - to them, but certainly not to those of us who are in a different, or as in the gangbanger example, healthier place.

As far as enlightenment, what is enlightenment?

As far as I'm concerned, William, it's a term we need to eliminate from our vocabulary, along with 'mysticism'. I might expand on why I feel that way some other time, though others are free to guess in the meantime.

:-)

[Bryan.A]

I have been proven wrong,MP does go offroad sometimes when it's about subjective topics.Not that it's really a bad thing,it's quite peculiar to read about the different subjective perspectives the people who post here have on life and death.Though the comments section seems to be more of a pandora box when it's not about provable Theories =)

In one way that has gotten me to realise that there's no real point to talk about how exactly the afterlife would be,seeying alot of people have different views and as I see very well,from different(subjective) sources.

So let me join in and add my subjective views too.

There is no way for me to prove it but i've experienced alot of the same experiences Robert Monroe experienced.Most if not all of the proces of falling asleep with the tons of akward feelings and visions accompanied with the experiences.

Typical OBE night for me:

Relaxing body and slowly falling asleep while staying concious->blurry visions with colors all mixed(hypnogogic imagery->keep focus on 1 thing and counting down->Enter dream Conciously.

The last step can also entail ->Slowly seperating from the body or having sleep paralysis and hearing a "crackling noise from the head" like "krsssss",feeling like breaking free from a spider web which does the same sound "krssss" usually from the feet towards the head up while consiously standing up from the bed.Very realistically feels like an OBE and the dreambody feels the same as a physical body.

Sometimes u can also feel and see that your floating towards the ceiling or experience a very evil presence in the room during sleep paralysis.With me this only happened the first time.

There are lots of variations people have and different feelings when trying to OBE before going to sleep.Yet I concluded all my experiences though seemingly realistic have much more in common with dreams,more realistic then usual lucid dreams.The "astral"enviroment changes(just like a dream).

The people that are asleep in real life could very well meet me in the experience,also when trying to open a door my hand doesn't pass through it but instead opens it normally,light doesn't work like it should.

These experiences convinced me that it was nothing but a dream,but then what is a dream?

This question has confused me and actually it still does.Does a dream originate from the body or the spirit body?How do these interact with eachother then?The modus operandi of bridging the gap between life and death is a very big challenge and one in which even philosophically and subjectively it's difficult to theorise with.

For instance,here is one question for everybody who think they have the answer.Alot of us accept the probability of survival(after death).Here's a spiritual biological curveball-question.

When and how does the spirit "fuse" with sperm or the eggcell in order to form a fetus?

That is like asking - "When did you stop hitting your wife?" - it's the wrong question and therefore unanswerable.

[Michael H]

When and how does the spirit "fuse" with sperm or the eggcell in order to form a fetus?

Believe it or not, Yogananda actually discusses this - I think it's in the autobiography, but it might be somewhere in Conversations with Yogananda. I don't recall the details, but he does cover this topic.

Of course, he was just a Yogi. Doesn't mean he's right.

:-)

[william]

“When and how does the spirit "fuse" with sperm or the egg cell in order to form a fetus?”

Well I have read many different answers to that question. Some say it depends on the maturity of the soul.

The book I am now reading I seem to remember that the author stated some information about how this occurs. From my point of view I don’t know. It never has been on my priority list of things I would like to know. My hunch is that when it occurs it is a variable like most things in life.

“That is like asking - "When did you stop hitting your wife?" - it's the wrong question and therefore unanswerable.”

Not sure it is unanswerable. Every person I asked about the origin of ignorance said it was unanswerable. But is it? I think we have to be very careful with the words wrong question and unanswerable.

If we humans are nothing else we are seekers of truth maybe it looks like at a snails pace but look at history. We are slowly, very slowly, climbing our way out of the deep well of ignorance. Ok unawareness.

[PD]

When and how does the spirit "fuse" with sperm or the eggcell in order to form a fetus?

Edgar Cayce says the soul enters the body around the time of birth. As good a guess as any, I think.

[Anonymous]

Terri said: Anonymous…You say you see dead people. Really? May I ask why you or Marcel or others that may claim this don’t actually ask them what’s going on in their world? Or ask why we all incarnate? Or what God’s purpose is. If I had this skill or power, it’s the first thing I’d ask, and I really don’t understand why it’s apparently not the main issue with you. It makes me suspicious that what you experience is just hallucination or telepathy.

ANSWER: First, Terri, there is no "power" or "ability" involved. It just is so. I don't mean this sarcastically at all, I just say that you are entitled to your opinion of course, and I'm glad to say that you will find out for yourself on the day you leave here and discover that you still live.

MP answered your question earlier about the "enquiring" comment you made, those books are available for you to read.

If you think I or even Marcel are unique, you haven't looked in the right places because there are all kinds of books in which people, in instances, have seen people who have died who IS ALSO SEEN BY ANOTHER PERSON WITH THEM providing the verification. It is hard to imagine 'group hallucination' of the same thing isn't it? Yet even when it is verified by more than one person there are many who simply cannot accept it as reality because it is just 'too much' and too 'impossible'...there MUST be some other explanation, right?

Personally, I think this concept is so hard for many to grasp and admit it is simply a reality because it exceeds their 'boggle' threshold.

You will find many books regarding these accounts, and they are not dreams either, if you really want to find out for yourself.

[Teri]

First…Bryan A., Newton discusses when the spirit enters the body in detail –in the first few months of conception, not at fusion, so as usual we have *different and contradictory* stories. No enlightenment or truth, in other words. No change there then.

Second… I am amazed that Anonymous quoted me then completely failed to say why he doesn’t ask the important questions I referred to of the “spirits” he has contact with. How very odd.

Third…William is sweet and I wish the world was as sweet as him. But it isn’t.

Fourth…At first I thought Michael Prescott and Michael H’s responses about Evil were quite good, but then I realised that there’s too much random stuff out there to believe it’s all a matter of *my* reaction to things, and it’s still far far too insulting to victims to say they asked for it or deserved it or it’s for the long-term advantage to humanity. In other words the arguments the 2 Michaels give are only justifications, not at all helpful to real victims, *only to those who don’t like thinking about the problem of evil*. Justifying evil to ease your own disquiet is dangerous because it has the effect of pretending evil isn’t quite real and won’t ever affect *you *. Also, if I had been convinced, I might have stopped thinking about evil and when good people stop resisting it, I think that quite possibly explains why trouble is spreading in the real world.

[william]

Saying evil does not exist is like an Advita type person saying you don’t exist yet I have known Advita types that write books on how to be successful and then go to book signings. Well if they don’t exist what are they doing signing books with a personal identifier such as a their name.

But in principle they are right; the only real reality is isness, not persons. We are manifestations of this Isness expressing its Oneness in an infinite variety of ways (I.e. us) and we cannot be “created” separate from infinite Oneness.

Now.

So the reality of the divine mind is that evil does not exist but in appearance it most certainly exists and most of us are living in appearance and not aware of our divine mind. Being unaware is the very definition of ignorance.

If we look close all evil deeds are based in ignorance and I suspect a good bit of self hatred (also ignorance) projected on to the world. For me the real question is how do we go about overcoming our ignorance and become a beneficial presence in this world and other worlds. I think the universe has an answer for that and it is karma. What we give we get back.

[william]

Further clarification that may help or not.

Below are three powerful principles and if we spend time with them they will give us many sleepless nights but they are speaking from the point of view of the Divine (reality) not from the usual human perspective.

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.
8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.
10. The understanding of what really is; abolishes all that seems to be.

The longer I read and seek into the mysteries of life; the more these principles make sense to me. In a way these principles (at least for me) explain why evil is nonexistent as a reality (Isness) but as an appearance (our perceived reality) then absolutely evil exists and appearance is what most of us see, feel, and experience at this stage of our journey.

[Ross W]

For what it’s worth from someone with zero psi ability, I remember quite a lot of my dreams these days. They are never “astral travels”, just a mixture of unfinished business from the previous day and other nonsense. Very disappointing.

As for your problems with evil, Teri, you can’t expect blog contributors to solve that perennial problem. If there is free will (which some philosophies like Advaita deny – yes, I know – there’s no straightforward “truth”!) then evil is a natural consequence of it. It is also inherent in the very idea of separation from what (we assume is) the wholeness of perfection. It won’t go away while people are unaware of their connection to a whole. Separate individuals have separate agendas, which clash with others. It’s in the nature of things; at least it is on planet Earth. I suggest you look forward to the Next World. Sorry!

[Teri]

“Separate individuals have separate agendas, which clash with others. It’s in the nature of things; at least it is on planet Earth. I suggest you look forward to the Next World. Sorry!”

Well if it’s that simple…I wonder you enter the blogosphere at all. I suppose you have to do *something* while you’re alive. Discussing the endless contradictions and lack of consistency of philosophies, religions astral travellers and mediums is as good a pastime as any I suppose. But from what I’ve read so far…the truth is neither ‘out there’ nor ‘inside here’…wherever that is.

One thing though…if there is no ‘wholeness of perfection’ as you put it, then there may be nothing to look forward to. On the contrary.

[TShan Doyle]

I just want to defend Michael Newton against the charge someone posted as to his 'leading the client'...............

If you read the transcripts, often Dr. Newton will assume something as to the client's experience and the client will literally scoff or laugh it off without the slightest sense of being led or buying it. After thousands of clients, he knows the landscape, and so might push ahead at times- but his immediate rejection by the client when he's wrong shows he is not leading. IMO.

I think it's hilarious, btw, when some folks claim someone like Lisa Williams is 'cold reading'. Right.

Hypnosis is not a blank state of passivity- when I've been in deep hypnosis, my critical facilities are as awake as ever, maybe even more so. I'm simply very slowed down and able to see much more that my usually speedy brain would have me miss. Personally, I would not be led unless I wanted to be for some reason.

'Journey of Souls' is a great book, great research.

[Thorsten]

The problem with concentrating on the inner good core is that you will likely end locked up yourself. Because *if* you are successful, you will become a saint.

From the viewpoint of a society a saint is much more dangerous than a sociopath because both are determined rule breakers.
If you have found your inner core, you can't help to follow it *regardless* of outer circumstances. But while the sociopath breaks rules for his own pleasure and is easy to control because everyone is against him, the saint will break rules for the sake of others. Every authority will tremble with fear because they can't justify use of force against the saint except because he is "breaking rules".
Every society is fundamentally dishonest: In the case of Western societies they are
claimed to be based on "Christianity" or "Human rights" or whatever and everyone should be treated as equal blabla
and in fact the members of society are always fighting for prestige, money, beauty
etc. and divide people in winners and losers.
A saint does not pay lip service, he really *means* it when he treats all people as equal. He will upset the core values of a society. And because he don't fulfill the expectations of his adherents ("Be our leader. Tell us what to do. Fight my enemies") the people will finally turn against him.
If Jesus spirit would be adopted right now by a person in the USA, the country with the
highest ratio of Christians, he will end up
killed or imprisoned in less than a month.

So back to the question: Becoming a saint will perhaps solve your personal salvation, but as a guide for "normal" people he is effectively useless to handle the problems of society. You must govern a bunch of people with strengths and weaknesses, not
good-painted caricatures of it.

[Teri]

Perhaps you should give us a list of present day saints and how they qualified Thorsten.

[Teri]

Tshan Doyle...I've read all 4 of Newton's books. You will see the pattern (paradigm) emerge as you continue.

[Michael Prescott]

Personally I think the problem of evil (or suffering) was best addressed by Aeschylus about 2500 years ago:

God, whose law it is that he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despite, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. (Edith Hamilton's translation)

I wrote about this here, for those who are interested.

[Thorsten]

Perhaps you should give us a list of present day saints and how they qualified Thorsten.

To my knowledge there aren't any now. Yes, there were and are some very good and wise people, but they all have a very human dent in their surface. But even they are extremely rare; it seems that falling down is much, much easier than climbing up.

It seems impossible that certain human qualities can vanish, but the sad fact is that it indeed can. There is at least in Europe or America no comparable sculptor like Michelangelo in the twentieth century. There are no comparable painters like Leonardo da Vinci, there are no comparable engravers like Duerer, there are
no comparable componists like Bach or Mozart in the twentieth century.

While people like the idea that the qualities of a saint is inborn, I suppose
that you need a specific environment to grow up to spiritual height which does not exist anymore.

[Michael H]

I realised that there’s too much random stuff out there to believe it’s all a matter of *my* reaction to things, and it’s still far far too insulting to victims to say they asked for it or deserved it or it’s for the long-term advantage to humanity.

I can only speak for myself, Teri, but I never implied that the evil behavior other people may engage in has anything to do with your reaction to things, nor that victims ask for or deserve any of the awful stuff that can happen.

What I am attempting to point out is that it is reactivity to their own thoughts about reality that cause the actions that define "bad people". As MP pointed out, we can't know what the world looks like to some who grow up in awful circumstances - what they do makes sense from their perspective. But it only makes sense to them. It sure as hell doesn’t make sense to their victims, or to those of us who observe the aftermath.

What too many do not understand is that the same principles are operating within all human beings at every moment. As I tried to express in the last thread, we're all on a continuum of conscious experience, and all our consciousness can ever be aware of is our thoughts. Those who engage in evil behavior are lower on the continuum of experience than the rest of us for sure - they choose actions that are based on their interpretation of reality, and their interpretation of reality is based on their acceptance of their own thinking as absolute. And it is acceptance of the idea that our individual thoughts are absolute that is the common denominator between all human beings, and what prevents us, and everyone else, from experiencing the perspective of a higher level of the continuum than we have before.

As I wrote in the earlier thread, this will all sound like just another philosophical theory, until someone realizes how true it is for themselves. And realizing it is deceptively simple - it's just seeing thought as thought in the moment. The entire comment by 'H' in the previous thread that I excerpted a portion of above is an excellent description of the insight that's involved in the realization.

For what it’s worth, there are already thousands of mental health professionals working with prison populations and disadvantaged communities worldwide to explain these principles with significant successes. And I also think that the vast majority of humanity are decent human beings who are trying to do the best they can. I think the media and popular culture can skew our perspective on humanity as a whole as a consequence of their continual focus on atrocities. Serial killers are a recurring theme in made-for-TV movies and countless novels, but how many have their actually been throughout history?

I see nothing wrong in recognizing that there are injustices in the world, Teri. I think expressing concern about these things is an indication that someone gives a damn, that they care. Caring is an expression of a level of consciousness that is already higher on the continuum than those who engage in misguided and evil behavior. I remain convinced, however, that if someone genuinely wants to make a difference, they need to begin at home. If we learn how thought informs our own varying perspectives on life, we may then be in a position to share it with another.

The bonus for those who choose to do so is that as we ascend on the continuum of consciousness, we will enjoy deeper feelings of personal wellbeing and understanding for others. Learning to see thought as thought in the moment is the best way I know of to build ourselves a sturdy pair of shoes, to paraphrase Maharshi. Once we’ve become our own cobbler, maybe we can help someone else. What is obvious is that centuries of attempts to cover the earth in leather hasn’t worked.

[Hope Rivers]

"people like the idea that the qualities of a saint is inborn, I suppose
that you need a specific environment to grow up to spiritual height which does not exist anymore"

Interesting times may have changed technology wise and culturally in 3000 years but the hate, violence was no less then than now and yet it produced very spiritual people, so why not now.

Would anyone here liked to have lived in the times of Christ and what he had to face. But lets go way back to the times of Moses or any of those biblical figures and look at the times they lived in and the bloody violence they endured, the wars and general survival of the times. Go back to any era basically nothing much has changed regarding evil, some may consider on a whole we are more civilised and respectful of human life today more than ever, although how can one truly measure this unless you *experienced* those other cultural times.

Looking for an excuse is always easier than making the changes to grow spiritually.

[Hope Rivers]

To experience the past, you need to research it before assuming *these* times are far worse.

Thorsten do you really believe the qualities of saints are *inborn*? (by the way saints are regular folk like you and I, not some mythical hybrid of a human)

While some people may be born with a distinctive personality (some timid, some extrovert, or serious minded or whatever), how they are raised, what they choose to believe and follow determines whether they become saints (spiritually advanced humans).

Basically any person here on this blog has the same opportunity to advance spiritually as any Yogi or Apostle, after all they are/were regular folk, and faced challenges, bad habits, negative thoughts, adverse experiences and the evilness in others, like you and I?

[Hope Rivers]

IGNORE THE * ? *

I was automatic speed typing ;-)

[Thorsten]

Looking for an excuse is always easier than making the changes to grow spiritually.

Your remark does not explain the discrepancy of artists I pointed out. We have *much* more people on Earth than several generations of medieval times, we have art schools, galeries, we have support and financing so that poorer people get a chance for studying and and and....
So according to your theory we must have dozens of Leonardos in our century, but they simply DO NOT exist. Why ?

[Michael H]

God, whose law it is that he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despite, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

Nice piece on Katrina, MP. The point that visions of Utopia are largely a consequence of the rise of materialism and technology is explored in detail by Eisenstein in the first couple of chapters of The Ascent of Humanity. The full text is available at the link.

He discusses how this assumption has continually faltered before going on to explore and cast serious doubt upon the core assumption that still rules our day - the assumption we are living in an objective reality.

I actually suspect that humanity will eventually realize a Utopian existence, but that it will not occur until it is widely understood that reality is actually subjective in nature. Eisenstein appears to suspect the same thing, and closes the book by anticipating what that society might actually look like.

If nothing else, it's thought-provoking stuff.

[Hope Rivers]

Hey I reckon we have probably more talented artists today, just different music styles in a different era. Do we respect our artists talent these days? This generation doesn't appear to give credit where its due, but why stop are musical genuises, what about talented authors, or any artist.

I'm sure even in Michalengelo's time there were talented artists as good as him, that werent as fortunate to get the recognition/fame/opportunity. Some say there's an element of luck or destiny involved, maybe its God ordained for a purpose. The grace of God shining down on the worthy or unworthy alike, sometimes the master talented do go ignored Thorsten.

[Hope Rivers]

And some are turned into Gods.

Believe it or not talented people reproduce the master pieces. Maybe they lacked the originality of the painting "idea" but technicality wise are equal to a master whom no doubt have their own original creations that go unnoticed.

[Hope Rivers]

How hard is it to get fame and recognition for a talent today? Ask MP why some authors become "Gods" and earn millions and other equally talented (or even exceedingly more talented) struggle to even get published (worst case) or make a decent yearly income.

There could be many beethovens sitting at home right now, unemployed, on welfare and unable to secure a deal, while some one like "spears" is making millions from lipsyncing her shows because she can't sing.

[Michael H]

Basically any person here on this blog has the same opportunity to advance spiritually as any Yogi or Apostle, after all they are/were regular folk, and faced challenges, bad habits, negative thoughts, adverse experiences and the evilness in others, like you and I.

Absolutely, Hope. Well said. Any person on earth can and does have the same opportunity to realize that they are much, much more than they currently believe they are.

So according to your theory we must have dozens of Leonardos in our century, but they simply DO NOT exist. Why ?

Thorsten, I think that the answer to your question has to do with the shared beliefs that have infected our culture over the past few centuries. Materialism rules the day, and the consequences of that philosophical assumption run broad and deep.

Leonardo and Michaelangelo worked from inspiration, though they may not have been able to explain what it was they were connected to and inspired by. As materialism has advanced, we have continually come to believe, and are continually taught, that we are all just the consequence of the happy accident of consciousness arising from dead matter. It is the acceptance of that belief that has likely prevented thousands, if not millions of Leonardo's from realizing their true potential.

Spirit still shines through in some respects though. Some may see The Beatles as a silly example, but they produced an incredible and prolific output of startling, timeless popular music in just a few short years. Where did that originate from? Where did Beethoven or Mozart's work originate from? I'd say that all great art originates from the higher self, and it is the widespread ignorance of, and the outright denial of the existence of, the higher self that prevents more from realizing it.

[Hope Rivers]

Talent isn't what is wanted today I believe. We live in a material age and that is what dictates.

[Michael Prescott]

Another factor in the case of the vanishing Leonardos is that, for most of history, art was produced in the service of the highest ideals and aspirations of a given society. It was taken for granted that great art celebrated the best that society had to offer. In more recent times, however, the idea has taken hold that art, to be great, must be subversive - that it must undermine and attack most people's ideals. The result has been a great deal of art that is deliberately shocking, disgusting, horrifying, meaningless, or absurd.

Intellectuals today are too "sophisticated" (read: cynical) to want the Statue of David in the town square. They want a hunk of scrap iron in the shape of a penis instead - the better to shock the bourgeoisie (who long ago stopped being shocked and learned to ignore modern art).

[Hope Rivers]

That also explains the ridiculous and vulgar vampire/porn novels being pushed out in masses.

[TomC]

she's my Leonardo of today:

Akiane

her parents were atheists but became believers after their daughter started having visions and dreams.

i dont understand modern art either- scrap metals, naked people, or random strokes of painting splashing on the canvas---

today's music and art have became boring and shocking- they evoke emotion and feelings (mostly lust, greed, vanity, and pride), but they never inspire, provoke thinking, nor trigger that metaphysical shudder-

Akiane is one of those artists that gave me a shiver everytime i see her painting

[william]

“Materialism rules the day, and the consequences of that philosophical assumption run broad and deep.”

I suspect that materialism is one of many stages that the human species must go through on its march to love, compassion, and intelligence and a greater appreciation of its oneness with the entire universe.

Materialism has given us technology such as the Internet that connects people all over the world in our quest for this oneness of thought as consciousness moves towards this love and divine intelligence. New souls may hinder this march but that’s another story.

[Ross W]

TomC. You have soul.

But Tracey Emin's "An Unmade Bed" is just so, well, so.....

RUBBBBISSSHHHH!!!!!!!!

Feel better now.

[Michael H]

Akiane is one of those artists that gave me a shiver everytime i see her painting

Thanks for bringing her up, TomC.

Examples like this are perfectly representative of what the human potential actually is, and what many continually refuse to accept.

She even tells us where it originates from, and many deny that, too:

Those that hunt migrational imagination

and wish what never could come true,

change impossibility to possibility

and become complete.

And become enough.

[Leo MacDonald]

I wonder what everyone thinks about these video clips on youtube called Equinox: The Secrets of the Psychics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DmT7-WWj3w

[Mark Alexander (the other Mark)]

Robert Lawlor wrote a great book on Dreamtime called: "Voices of the First Day: Awakening in the Aboriginal Dreamtime."

He also authored "Sacred Geometry" and translated the two huge Temple of Luxor volumes "The Temple in Man" by R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz, the one man who "got" Ancient Egypt.

If readers do not know him, start with John Anthony West's great "Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt."

One of the best, most intelligent books I've ever read.

[J]

"migrational imagination"?? Infelicitous.

[Hope Rivers]

Thanks TomC for introducing me to Akiane, I personally had never heard of her before.

This is a clear representation of God distributing gifts in different measures, for his purpose.

I got this profound piece on "love" off her site. Now did it come to her at 11, which is her current age or sometime earlier?

Some here may say she could be channeling some spirit, some may say its a past life influence and others may say it is God himself, his handiwork and breath on her.

Love

Love is never alone
Love is always crowded
Love is the shared self

We cannot own our love
And we cannot teach our love

The longest breath of love
is the shortest distance to heaven

The deepest life is love
The deepest love is an embrace

Love is not rest
Love is peace
Love is the purpose

-Akiane, age 11

[william]

"I wonder what everyone thinks about these video clips on youtube called Equinox: The Secrets of the Psychics."

Two words: a joke.

The ultimate video in misinformation but it allows the materialists to keep their materialistic paradigm. For one they need to rename their video to “the secrets of the mediums” not psychics.

There is and was fraud in spiritualism but the people that produced this video knew so little about paranormal phenomena through mediumship.

What did Houdini find with the Margery mediumship that he accused her of fraud? One string that was later proven to be a string from the carpet weaving. Houdini was thrown off the committee to investigate Margery as he was caught cheating. I.e. sneaking in props to discredit Margery. And so it goes.

The mediumship example in the video was a joke. Did anyone see how he got out of the hand restraints? A joke. Would have loved to put marbles in his mouth like Margery had to deal with and the box she sit in that Houdini had made that only had her head sticking out. This guy had a stick in his hand. The sad part most materialists who see this video will believe it.

The book I am reading now gives some good insights into the mediumship abilities of John Sloan who never *asked for one cent for his gift, as Margery never took a dime for her mediumship. How many on this blog even know how Margery got involved in mediumship. I.e. to discredit it to prove to her husband it did not exist.

This video proves my point that ultra skeptics are as paralyzed by their beliefs as religious fundamentalists.

*He did take money twice when he was out of work but as soon as he found a job he refused to take any more money.

[Hope Rivers]

Akiane's painting called the Prince of Peace

This face is so familiar to me :-)