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Hypnogogic hallucinations happen when one is between being asleep and awake,it happens before or simultanously with sleep paralysis.Either way going through these hallucinations consiously requires one to be experienced at WILD(wake initiated lucid dream)falling asleep while remaining awake.The astral adventures,i.e. lucid dreams happen afterwards.

MP said;
In this netherworld, the experiencer encounters beings and objects that are actually projections of his own mind - his hopes, beliefs, and fears. Adding to the confusion, the experiencer is typically in a trancelike state that impedes clear thinking.

During out of body experiences,deep lucid dreams the dreamenviroment is very reflective of your thoughts.The things u passively or actively think about in a lucid dream/obe changes everything that follows.Not only the thoughts matter but also the feelings u have while being asleep.

What your suggesting is that the initial stages after death can be like lucid dreams/out of body experiences where the environment depends on your suggestive not clear-thinking thoughts.That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsiously" visiting the astral planes.Or no?

That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsiously" visiting the astral planes.

Both the Seth books and Autobiography of a Yogi say that this is precisely what is happening while we sleep. I seem to recall several other sources suggesting this as well.

To get even weirder, Chuang-Tzu tells the story in The Inner Chapters of Chuang-Tzu of a man named Chuang-Chou vividly dreaming he was a butterfly, and having no knowledge of Chuang-Chou while he was experiencing his butterfly existence in the dream. Upon awakening, he was so startled that he wasn't sure whether he was a man who had dreamt of being a butterfly, or if he was a butterfly dreaming that he was a man; suggesting that it's all just point-of-view.

Down the rabbit hole we go.

I just posted some excerpts from the Benedict NDE in the previous thread, and one speaks directly to this topic:

I cannot really say the exact words, because it was sort of telepathy. The light responded. The information transferred to me was that your beliefs shape the kind of feedback you are getting before the light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff. You have a chance to look at it and examine it, but most people do not.

I think that the more we can identify with the quiet state of awareness within us while we are alive, the more equipped we will be to maintain perspective through the afterlife experience.

It just came to mind that perhaps Socrates' statement that "philosophy is the practice of death" may have some pertinence to this discussion as well.

"That opens a complete box of weirdness dude because that would suggest that every night we go to sleep we actually might be "unconsciously" visiting the astral planes. Or no?"

I think we may indeed unconsciously visit other places of existence. This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity. Look what happens when we don’t sleep for several days.

MP, explain the physical manifestations received by some people under sleep paralysis/OBE/hypnagogic hallucinations?.

I had a cut to my inner leg in one episode, I felt like I was cut with a knife, yet the entity/hallucination was invisible. During the experience, not once did I think I was being cut, I just felt pain, only after waking the
next morning and thinking about it, seeing my inner leg (high up my leg - an area impossible to attack myself) did I come to the conclusion I was knifed and thats how it must feel. Now it may not have been a knife, but the cut was about 10cm long running down vertically and had been bleeding. It wasnt there before.

Later in life I questioned the experience and wondered whether it was psychosomatic (if thats possible?) but I remember making no mental associations with being knifed or becoming injured. It was just another sleep paralysis episode as far as I was concerned, one of many only a bit more painful and the area of attack had slightly changed.


Carla Moran was sexually attacked and though the book "The Entity" is based on a true story, many find this basing to be suspect, some suggest its just the author creating hype to sell his novel. Regardless if you research these types of occurances you will find many people have had them and its not just a fiction story to titilate.

In her story she had parapsychologists witness an attack. They saw her movement in her breasts (as though being pummeled) and various other things.

Now I've never seen the movie itself or read the book, which I will have to get but through my own personal experiences I have no problem believing this stuff occurs. I think one needs to remember we are in a spiritual world, spirits exist, telepathy is the main source of communication between spirits, so therefore our thoughts can even be questionable. Physical manifestations of spirit beings only point to the afterlife more and more. The other alternative is everything is a delusion and we evoke everything from our own minds (spirits and all)

Dreams are a portal to places unknown and for visitors to enter our open doors. Are all NDEs then just an hallucination or more. Can it be both at once?

As far as the tibetan book of the dead, again we are relying on some spiritual source (obviously close to the earth plane to be able to communicate with us) for its "truth" of the death passage especially if NDE's are merely psychosomatic experiences of ones fears and hopes.

I had a predication in my NDE and was given an exact "year" it would happen, not an approximate like Meller. If it doesnt happen I will be the first to shout of the rooftops, its a spiritual deception/that NDE's a hybrid dream state and nothing else.

If you watch the activity of your mind as you fall asleep, you may notice a state where it is nearly impossible to concentrate, your mind wanders wildly, and your mental imagry becomes intense. This is the hypnogogic state. In my experience, hyponogogic hallucinations are more like normal dreams than lucid dreams (I don't know how an experienced lucid dreamer would find them) but these perceptions can often be psychic just like regular dreams can be psychic. I know this from personal experience. The brain is in a theta wave state in this condition and theta waves have been found to correlate with reports of psychic experiences. Just because there is a scientific name for it doesn't mean it isn't psychic. Since you can easily tell when you are in that state is is a useful way to identify when you are psychically receptive without a lot of expensive equipment.

Thomas Edison used to hold ball bearings in his hand when going off to sleep. As he entered the hyponogogic state he would drop them and the noise would alert him to his state and he would use that state to work on problems.

"This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity."

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

Compare and Contrast.

Regarding my attack someone asked me whether I could have scratched myself in my sleep. The answer to this is NO. It was not a scratch, it was reasonably deep and a clean cut, plus I had no nails to scratch with. The other thing I hadnt mentioned was there was also some bruising near the area, that wasn't there either before I went to bed.

MAYBE THIS NDE "SOURCE" IS THE SAME SOURCE OF THE "ENLIGHTENED" YOGIS...HAS THIS EVER BEEN CONSIDERED BY ANYONE HERE? DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? UPLIFTING AND WONDERFUL? WE DON'T REALLY EXIST? THIS IS ALL THE DREAM OF AN ALIEN? Think...

I was aware ... of moving rapidly upward into darkness. Although I don't recall turning to look, I knew the hospital and the world were receding below me, very fast.... I was rocketing through space like an astronaut without a capsule, with immense speed and great distance.

A small group of circles appeared ahead of me, some tending toward the left. To the right was just a dark space. The circles were black and white, and made a clicking sound as they snapped black to white, white to black. They were jeering and tormenting--not evil, exactly, but more mocking and mechanistic. The message in their clicking was: Your life never existed. The world never existed. Your family never existed. You were allowed to imagine it. You were allowed to make it up. It was never there. There is nothing here. There was never anything there. That's the joke--it was all a joke.

There was much laughter on their parts, malicious. I remember brilliant argumentation on my part, trying to prove that the world--and I--existed.... They just kept jeering.

"This is eternity," they kept mocking. This is all there ever was, and all there ever will be, just this despair....

Time was forever, endless rather than all at once.... Yes, it was more than real: absolute reality. There's a cosmic terror we have never addressed.

Since meaningless void experiences paint a far from gleaming picture of what the dying sometimes experience, many New Age near-death researchers are reluctant to accept them as visions of another world.

I had a predication in my NDE and was given an exact "year" it would happen, not an approximate like Meller. - hope rivers
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How is this possible in a place where time doesn't seem to exist? I've read numerous NDE's that state that they felt no sense of time on the other side. Here are just a few of them.

"I was told that before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (from Jeanie Dicus' near-death experience, 1974)

"Space and time are illusions that hold us to our physical realm; out there all is present simultaneously." (from Beverly Brodsky's near-death experience, 1970)

"During this experience, time had no meaning. Time was an irrelevant notion. It felt like eternity. I felt like I was there an eternity." (from Grace Bubulka's near-death experience, 1988?)

"I didn't know if I had been in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (from Jayne Smith's near-death experience, 1965?)

"Earthly time had no meaning for me anymore. There was no concept of "before" or "after." Everything - past, present, future - existed simultaneously." (from Kimberly Sharp's near-death experience, date unknown)

"Time could also be contracted, I found. Centuries would condense into seconds. Millenniums would shrink into moments. The entire civilization that I was part of passed by in the blink of an eye." (from John Star's near-death experience, date unknown)

There are many others.

Well Art its true, the guide/angel I met took me to a place/room with others there sitting in a circle and I was asking them questions about my own life and one was regarding the future and he answered my question and gave me the exact number of years when it would occur.

This was my experience and I am speaking the truth as God is my witness and I swear on his sovereignty to strike me down. You can believe what you want but I experienced it, it happened and this same guide/angel appeared to a lady about a year later with a rose to give me and remind me of the experience and keep hope (his words).

Now when the time comes (not far away) and if it doesnt occur I'll let you know.


By the way what your saying is correct, it was timeless but dont dismiss that some angels in that realm don't understand the way time works on earth.

oops I mean some do understand how earth time works.

If it occurs it will prove to me that either it was ochestrated to occur by spirit intervention or that we have a definite life path predetermined from the beginning.

more likely both together.

Recently I read a newspaper article about a study being conducted at Boston University, funded by NIMH, called The Phylogeny of Sleep. They are trying to figure out how and why sleeping evolved. So far they have taken a look at nearly 150 different mammal species but don’t really have any answers. They haven’t asked me for my opinion yet, but it seems to me that sleeping is more of a disadvantage than an advantage when looked at from the perspective of survival value. What could be worse in a world full of predators than falling asleep?

The way I see it, the brain, along with its attendant senses, is an instrument to afford us contact with the physical environment. Its primary (but not sole) functions are to facilitate our survival and development. The question that keeps recurring to me is, why, if it is so useful, can’t it keep up its work 24 hours a day? Why one hour of down time for every two at work? (And it’s not just us. All of the mammals studied so far require sleep in varying proportions except for baby dolphins and killer whales who spend the first weeks of their lives wide-awake around the clock. This is the period of their lives when they are most vulnerable to predators).

So why the necessity for sleep? Here’s an answer that kind of appeals to me. The world we find ourselves in is not ideoplastic. Rather, it is resistant. Maybe this is what it means when we speak of the world as being “objective.“ Simply “not ideoplastic.“ This quality of resistance is foreign to our minds (not our brains) and the minds of other living things. We simply cannot bear up under the constant “weight” of this foreign environment and must return periodically to the ideoplastic environment that is nearer our home--the dream world. It is as if we were exploring an alien planet and had to return to the space ship when our oxygen supply gets low.

Many communicators have said that when they re-enter the earth sphere their thinking becomes addled. Maybe this alien planet is surrounded by a kind of fog bank that frustrates clear thinking. (That would explain a lot of what goes on in this world). It is not until we escape this fog bank--a process which takes 3 or 4 days after death on average--that we rid ourselves of this liability. Therefore during OBE’s, while in the fog bank, one encounters all manner of distortions.

Just one man’s muddled opinion.

When skeptics point to NDEs in which fantasy figures like Santa Claus make an appearance, one possible response is to observe that such encounters are fully consistent with thousands of years of esoteric teaching.
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Maybe at one time there really was some guy who was named Nicholas who gave presents to poor kids and from there the story grew and became embellished till it became the Santa Klaus Myth? From little stories grow legends? I'm thinking the same might be true about Jesus. Some little Jewish Rabbi who had a near death experience, was stabbed by a Roman Soldier, flopped down from the cross because they thought he was dead, pierced the pericardium and let off the pressure, heart restarted, and before you know it "Bob's your Uncle", his story is added to and grows till it's the Jesus we know and love today? The little Rabbi probably had an NDE and came back saying stuff like "if you judge other people that's how your going to be judged!" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you!" "You reap what you sow!" etc., etc. From little seeds such great stories grow.

"This physical world is so harsh for most people we may indeed need to travel to another place to keep our sanity."

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

Compare and Contrast.

I just posted an attempt to explain this in the previous thread, Teri. I actually see no conflict in these statements.

The question that keeps recurring to me is, why, if it is so useful, can’t it keep up its work 24 hours a day? Why one hour of down time for every two at work?

Sleep studies show that our brains do remain active 24 hours a day. And we know that sleep is critical to our survival. Our minds are up to something while we're sleeping, and it must be important.

Apparently for animals too. I remember chuckling at one of my dogs who would happily whimper and move his legs while sleeping - I am certain that he was busy chasing astral squirrels somewhere. He was experiencing something, having a good time doing it, and it must serve some sort of purpose.

I sort of like your 'muddled opinion', wvogt. Both Seth and Yukteswar basically said that our higher selves are busy with projects in other realms while we sleep, which implies that our normal waking experience here is not all that there is.

The naturalists remain convinced that they can explain everything, including consciousness, all while ignoring consciousness. It's an assumption that needs to be revisited, and one that many are beginning to.

"What could be worse in a world full of predators than falling asleep?"

Actually, one adaptive function suggested for sleep is that it protects the organism from predators and other dangers. To take one species as an example: humans sleep during the hours of darkness, which is the time during which they are most at risk of accidents and least able to deal with predators. It makes sense that we should seek shelter and stop moving around during these periods.

It doesn't explain everything: e.g. the predators at the top of the food chain sleep most of the time despite not being vulnerable to such risks, but sleep has other functions such as energy conservation, physical healing, and memory processing that can be carried out far more efficiently when the individual is physically still and sensory attention withdrawn from the external environment. The importance of all these functions probably varies widely across species and habitats, which is why we're unlikely to find a simple and tidy explanation as to why a particular species sleeps as they do.

“Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are.”

We are Divine after all we came from the Devine. Now the question becomes if we are so divine why such harshness in the world. I mean people kill each other over land and resources. Why such ignorance? The Christians say we have fallen but that does not pass the simplest of logic tests.

Could it be that matter gives mind the opportunity to express itself? If our consciousness were pure awareness how would Oneness express itself? What would it create? Who or what would do the expressing or the creating? We are that that is participating in one big creative process. Life is about process, results are only an outcome of process.

The interaction between harshness and joy is one of blessings in our lives. There are days it sure does not feel like a blessing but then the mystics see everyday as a blessing. The mystics are aware of their oneness with all that is.

Art does everyone that sees the world anew have to have an NDE? It appears that William makes everything fit into paradigms and Art makes everything fit into NDE’s. That is what makes us unique Art without that uniqueness there is no us; just Isness.

Here is one for you Art when a near death experiencer sees the world anew are they looking through their own mental model? I.e. paradigm. After all some see Jesus some see Buddha and apparently some see Santa Claus.

Art does everyone that sees the world anew have to have an NDE?

William addresses something here that I'm curious about as well, Art.

Why is it that you find it so easy to accept mystical realization as reported via the NDE experience, and yet so difficult to accept that the great mystics throughout history realized the same truths while fully alive?

Do you see Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Lao-Tzu, Parmenides, Plotinus, Rumi, Eckhart, Boehme, Ramakrishna, Krishnamurti, Maharshi, Teilhard de Chardin, Aurobindo, Yogananda, and the thousands of other Self-realized throughout history as all NDE survivors?

More importantly, why does William refer to himself in the third person?

Michael H ... what you have said about perfection makes no sense to me because if someone is not recognising their divine spark they are acting imperfectly, not perfectly and as you say have to be restrained or in war, killed. A mad axeman, a wife beater or a rapist is not perfect by any criteria in the universe that I can imagine and never will be in this life.

And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do, which is partly why I think it’s all brain fantasy as the Santa Claus thing suggests. At least you have to admit that much of what is said by Dream mystics is mutually contradictory. Selective quoting of Near Death/Subconscious Dreams is useless.

A mad axeman, a wife beater or a rapist is not 'a blessing' by any criteria in the universe that I can imagine and never will be in this life. It is insulting to our intelligence to suggest this.

“More importantly, why does William refer to himself in the third person?”
Good question? There is the observer and the observed and we are capable of both at the same time. Observing one’s perceived self makes for some interesting phenomena. Who is doing the observing? Why it is awareness observing “perceived self’s” flow of consciousness. I.e. thoughts.

Awareness is primary, consciousness secondary. Awareness is, whereas consciousness is the majestic, grand, and divine illusion. But oh what an illusion; people kill one another over there illusions, ok delusions.

“It is insulting to our intelligence to suggest this.”

If it is insulting to your intelligence then that is the time to go deep into meditation and research as to why he would state that and continually ask why is it insulting to your intelligence. Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story. Intelligence is rare phenomenon. I suspect 99% of what I post on here is from my intellect and not my intelligence. Ouch I will hear about that statement.

This is why the maybe the most profound human that walked on this earth taught we must forgive 70 times 7 not just seven times as the law provided. Not saying I can do this but Jesus realized things the rest of us only talk about intellectually.

If Jesus came back today and gave the same sermons he would be accused of insulting our intelligence. Guaranteed. Research into how Richard Gere was treated when he suggested to a large group of Americans to forgive those that flew through the twin towers. To my personal disappointment I was unable to forgive and wanted revenge in Afghanistan.

I've recently read Michael Newton's book, Journey of Souls. I was a skeptic, kind of wrote that kind of thing off as new-agey (I've been a snobby buddhist until recently!). Anyway, the guy is a clear eyed former skeptic who worked for 30 years and 7000 clients, relatively uninfluenced, to come up with a Big Picture. As for the immediate after death state, his research sees more mature souls as moving like a shot out of here, knowing what they're doing, while less advanced souls can get a bit stuck and confused.

As for the teachings of long tradition, i.e. Buddhism and so on, they tend to be the victims, at times, of dogmatism and mythic repetition that's as much cultural as truthful. Heed it well ye relativists.

Let's find out the truth- and I guess we're all lucky enough to get that chance, and maybe sooner than we think.........

Do you see Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Lao-Tzu, Parmenides, Plotinus, Rumi, Eckhart, Boehme, Ramakrishna, Krishnamurti, Maharshi, Teilhard de Chardin, Aurobindo, Yogananda, and the thousands of other Self-realized throughout history as all NDE survivors? - Michael
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I'm pretty well convinced that all religion and spirituality probably originally arose from NDE's, death bed visions, and mystical and transcendental experiences, with maybe a touch of chemically induced hallucination from ergot of rye and other naturally ocurring hallucigens. Peyote, ayhuasca, ergot, marijuana, etc., etc. etc. Mix in with that a little embellishment and imagination and voila! Within a few years you've got yourself a new religion. I see parallels between the New Testament and NDE's and the holographic paradigm every time I read the New Testament.

Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story.

That's well said, William. So few understand the difference. And I think 'delusion' is a better term than 'illusion'. We do it to ourselves.

And Teri, you might look at the two quotes you posted earlier again, and try to consider them from the standpoint of 'levels of consciousness' that I attempted to explain in the previous thread.

The reason I see no contradiction between the two is that they are both completely true from the perspective of the individual expressing them. The former is the way existence is viewed from the perspective of the lower self, the latter is the perspective of the higher Self. Both selves are real, (though I do think one is 'realer'), and each statement will appear completely true to the one expressing their particular view, while the opposing statement will appear ludicrous to the other.

If humanity were to understand why that is, we wouldn't have the horrors, conflicts and injustices that you have pointed out.

I see parallels between the New Testament and NDE's and the holographic paradigm every time I read the New Testament.

There are parallels between all of the other established faiths too, Art. We only need to look deeply enough, and separate the wheat from the chaff.

“Buddhism and so on, they tend to be the victims, at times, of dogmatism and mythic repetition that's as much cultural as truthful.”

My sentiments exactly. When I started this seeking into the mysteries of life 17 years ago I felt deeply that I would find Buddhism the one true religion. Well it is profound but rebirth but no soul and spirits coming through from the other side. Whoops. Some Buddhists believe in souls some do not it can be confusing.

The Buddhist monk I stayed a short time who wrote a book that human life is not only worthless but also vulgar. Well while at the temple I saw a picture with him and 11 other monks who were the leaders of the sect or whatever and the only one smiling in the picture was the monk I knew that wrote human life is not only worthless by vulgar. I said to myself don’t think so. Now I belong to no organization; because I believe that religious or political identification can bias any research.

“Actually it is insulting to our conditioned intellect not our intelligence but that’s another story.” “That's well said, William. So few understand the difference”

Some of what I post on here I learned from Dr. Hora’s teachings. If any book will challenge what you think you know his will. After reading and really during the reading his books you may be cursing him but then if you stay with it you will slowly begin to realize how intelligent this man was.

Here is a man that teaches that nonviolent resistance is really aggression. Whether you decide to agree with him or not the book will give you something to think about. http://www.pagl.org/

TShan Doyle and William might be interested in Carl Jung's observation, likely to be interpreted with great chagrin by the followers of religions:

"Religion is a defense against the experience of God."

There are parallels between all of the other established faiths too, Art. We only need to look deeply enough, and separate the wheat from the chaff. - Michael H
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I told my wife today it's kind of like going to the grocery store. When you're there you don't buy everything in the store. You pick out a few items, buy them, and then leave the store. I don't "buy" everything I read or hear. Only that stuff that resonates or makes sense to me.

Terri says "And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do, which is partly why I think it’s all brain fantasy as the Santa Claus thing suggests. At least you have to admit that much of what is said by Dream mystics is mutually contradictory. Selective quoting of Near Death/Subconscious Dreams is useless"

Well Terri in my NDE (brain fantasy according to you) the guardian told me, he would contact me soon. One year later he did.

Terri also as far as Santa Claus is concerned or any odd manifestation, there is a plethra of spiritual beings in those realms who gain satisfaction from misleading and confusing, just as there are on earth. The evil actions from humans on earth as replicated in the other realms, or vice versa, how could this be hard to believe.

The first person I saw in my NDE was of a living person in my life at the time, so that really confused me. Then he does a slight turn and is replaced by another entity, which was a little unsettling for a bit but then more waves of peace and love started up again stronger and settled this. After the experience I concluded it was just a "dream".

A year later the guardian manifests to a lady fulfilling what he said and a few years later, the living person I saw in the NDE commits suicide. Now several months before the NDE I had a vision of this person in a coffin when I was with them.

I was shown the future in the NDE regarding that person I believe, for a long time it never made sense. The fact that the living person looked a little different added to this, he was in a state of perfection.

I knew him when I saw him but yet he looked glorified if that makes sense. The following years after the experience I convinced myself it wasn't him, just someone who looked similar to him.

Only recently I had the "light Bulb" moment, the light came on and it all made sense. Why I chose to ignore my first feelings and be confused for years regarding the identity of the first person is another story again.

When I experienced the NDE I happened to tell some people and one of those was with me when the message came through from the guardian a year later at this lady's house (whom is a stranger to me). I have a few people who know of my experiences for over 26 years, my own family even longer.

Now if the other stuff said between the guardian and myself doesnt come true, I will probably conclude to the fact that he wasn't a spirit to be trusted and that the realm of peace and love could be a replica of the real deal to lure and confuse.

I guess we will all find out eventually, in the mean time I think following the teachings of Christ is where its all at, and everything else we shouldn't waste too much energy on.


"And Hope, don’t expect your prediction to come true because these things never do..."

Further, Terri, there may be more people viewing this blog than you might think so you should be cautious, you may end up with your foot in your mouth. I saw my own dad in a light blue, steel casket. Wearing a dark navy blazer..he had died, and it was very painful to see.

This of course, happened while he was still alive and so I was shocked to have witnessed this...it is also surprising because I was always closer to my mother than my dad, so it can't be argued that I was 'obsessed' with him. 5 months later we found out he had cancer in his liver and 5 months after that he passed.

The casket my mother got for him turned out to be light blue, made of steel and the navy blazer turned out to be a Royal Canadian Legion blazer...he was a WW2 vet. So, you may have been premature in your..SPECULATION about nothing 'coming true'.

Also, I agree about Art. No offence, but you seem to think everything comes down to NDEs..the statement you made about Jesus and an NDE is almost laughable. You have nothing but your own speculation to base this on, yet you seem very inclined to believe it without hesitation.

I appreciate your comments Hope. I also agree that there are more than just 'lovable' entities around. As far as all of the 'speculative wisdom' being discussed here about being disoriented and such after 'passing'...well I have seen people in the following days after they have passed (yes, not a vision, SEEN them) and I can assure you they did NOT look too disoriented or confused to me...in fact they looked great, completely at ease, fully away, moving around, listening and enjoying. Sort of blows the Yogi's theory doesn't it?

Finally, so much philosophy again...could it be just this simple...some NDEs are valid and some are just hallucinations. Stressing the 'NEAR'DE. Skeptics can't even come close to dealing with the best NDEs such as George Rodonaia and 'believer's come across as fools trying to defend every single NDE..or denying NDEs that don't 'fit' into their 'only love' beliefs.

Further, Terri, I do agree with you that no wife beater, axe murderer or such is ANY blessing to anyone...this is just pure unadulterated evil...and it's only MUSHY CRAP that new agers push to try and justify their own belief system..any thinking person should be able to decifer that it is preposterous to even consider this or the fact that millions of Jews 'chose' to be annihilated in the holocaust. Ridiculous..unless someone wants to 'fit' it into their belief system. People don't like to have their systems challenged...this includes everyone from scientists to new agers.

An OPINION...personally, I think 95% of Robert Monroe's stuff is garbage. It's nothing...I 'believe' that people like him really are dreaming and thinking they're going somewhere. I also do not believe from anyone (including yogis) that every time we dream we are 'traversing the spiritual realm'...and anyone who thinks about how bizarre their dreams can be ought to be able to realize this.

Just to clarify Terri, you are right... it is insulting to our intelligence AND our intellect...if some want to put it that way...to suggest such a thing is insulting to most people...and it should be.

“I don't "buy" everything I read or hear. Only that stuff that resonates or makes sense to me.”

That may be the way to go on this journey if there is any approach as a way to go. Once in a while I find something that does not agree with me and almost have to force myself to read it or view it. Why do that?

I constantly see paradigm paralysis all around me and I know that I am not immune to this phenomenon. I believe that anyone that thinks they are immune to this part of their life is in the deepest of denial. I.e. they have facts and you who don’t agree with their cherished beliefs don’t know how to think.

It is almost impossible to see outside our existing system of beliefs. I just saw a movie this week called “the kingdom” not a very good movie but the ending had a profound message. Don’t want to give it away but those two sentences at the end really captured the absurdity of war and hatred and the belief by both sides of the conflict that god is on “their” side.

When we fought the American civil war both sides thought it was a “fact” that god was on their side. Love that word fact. Why not maybe? Fewer wars if we say maybe instead of fact.

“this is just pure unadulterated evil...and it's only MUSHY CRAP that new agers push to try and justify their own belief system..any thinking person should be able to decifer that it is preposterous to even consider this”

Bet you anonymous believe that you are a thinking person and the new age folks as you put it are not. What I find fascinating is the atheists and the religious have so much in common. They think the other side does not know how to think like they do. They are both mired in self-righteousness, not out of certainty but doubt.

That was one of my greatest discoveries when I started my research into the mysterious of life I believed that the atheists would be opened minded people after all they were not mired down in religious dogma. Boy was I wrong the atheists as nonbelievers can be as hindered by their beliefs as the religious fundamentalist. Yes also the new age folks can be mired down by their beliefs.

Anonymous: Dr Hora’s book would be an interesting read for you. Expect some sleepless nights because he challenges just about everything Christians and atheists hold near and dear to their way of thinking. Been there, done that.

Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though its a shame you chose not to be a real person. That stuff about a conditioned intellect is completely meaningless to me. If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being. In other words they would be horrified and frightened. Somebody please dare to tell me I'm wrong. You can put your 'conditioned intellect' in your pipe and smoke it with your other brain fantasy substances.

I also agree. Sometimes I think opinions on how the after life wil be should be informed by the way we live our lives as well.

Sometimes I think that the spiritualist kind of thinking aims towards all becoming the same. However, we're all so vastly different in our characters what would be the point of this? There may be some subjects where a sense of morality will be shared (i.e. lack of tolerance for murder, rape etc), but there are others where people will differ.

There's a lot of talk on here about Yogis and Buddhist monks. Their view of life would be vastly different from someone in the western world. Who knows? Maybe their view is 'correct' and we should go with our lives back to basics. Reject materialism and capitalism and all its problems.

However, maybe we're supposed to learn the truths about our lives. From our point of views. Our culture. Our belief systems.

Sometimes it's worth asking 'pop culture' questions to your afterlife beliefs.


Tshan Doyle if you read Newton's books carefully you will see that he leads his subjects into the kind of dream he wants them to have. Leading questions and statements. Also a lot arrive on his couch with his own preconceptions. It's obvious to me. If you disagree, also see how stereotyped his stuff is...he ensures it fits into his own pattern. No simple merging with the Total Light in Newton is permitted.

Teri I agree with you I have found that many of Newton’s writings do not cross validate with some of the information that spirits are saying coming through mediums. But many do and it would take too long on here to explain those that I feel do agree with my observations. Research into the mysteries of life is not for the faint of heart. A fact one day can become a dogma the next day and that can cause much mental pain and sleepless nights.

“Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though it’s a shame you chose not to be a real person.”

And what makes anonymous sane to you? Why of course he agrees with your beliefs. That is how the mind (i.e. ego) works it loves to read those facts from others that agrees with its facts. It gives us self-confirmation (self confirmatory ideation) and is based in doubt not certainty.

Teri try to go deeper than just agreement. Like attracts like but sometimes those teachings that are exact opposite of our beliefs can widen our horizon or not. Sorry just gave unsolicited advice and I suspect it will go over like a lead balloon. But if you are upset with me that may be a good thing.

“If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being”

Absolutely correct Teri. I think I just posted on here that I suspect 99% of my comments are intellectual and not intelligence. They come from my research and not realization. Huge difference. At least not my definition of intelligence. We humans are very very low on the intelligent scale and constantly confuse intellectual aptitude with intelligence.

Jesus was very very ok incredibly intelligent that is why if he came back and gave his identical sermons within days after 9/11 that he gave 2000 years ago I believe he would be arrested as a traitor and may even be jailed without a trial and maybe even tortured. I.e. he would be rejected and accused of heresy by the very people that claim to follow him.

You have got to admit Teri God (mind) sure created a variety of folks with a variety of beliefs. Creates great drama. Thanks for posting comments Teri love this dialog.

William you said: "Anonymous: Dr Hora’s book would be an interesting read for you. Expect some sleepless nights because he challenges just about everything Christians and atheists hold near and dear to their way of thinking. Been there, done that."

ANSWER: William, would DR. HORA have some sleepless nights because Christians and atheists challenge just about everything HE holds near and dear to his heart? Why should the others have sleepless nights but not he? (see what I mean about new agers defending the own beliefs and not liking it challenged?)

Then William said: "What I find fascinating is the atheists and the religious have so much in common. They think the other side does not know how to think like they do. They are both mired in self-righteousness, not out of certainty but doubt."

ANSWER: Just tell a new ager that such a things as "evil" exists and see if they feel that you "know how to think as well as they do". Try it and see. In fact, try it on yourself and see. Is this conclusion you have reached based on your research? How do you know your research is CORRECT? Or do you "just know" ?

Furthermore, I don't know if you're implying that I'm an atheist or not...if you are, I don't know how you would arrive at that conclusion, I see dead people, remember? What I have said about what I see contradicts some of the bizzare things that your yogis have said, do you ASSUME that I'm wrong? Why would I be wrong and they just be right? Or do you "just know" ?

Teri said: "That stuff about a conditioned intellect is completely meaningless to me. If an evil criminal entered the life of the persons that talk about 'conditioned intellect', they would not react any differently to any other sane human being. In other words they would be horrified and frightened. Somebody please dare to tell me I'm wrong."

ANSWER: I totally agree with you. I'm not sure, based on your comments, though, if you are implying there is no life beyond this present physical...if you are, I must tell you that you are incorrect. Can I tell you exactly what it is? No. Can anyone? No. Why? Because it is not to be known on a global scale...there is a reason.

Also, Terri, about NDEs...if all of them are hokum, how would we explain blind people who are able to see and describe events while clinically dead? They are many of these available to view. Also, take a look at George Rodonaia's NDE (3 days), there is no way for science to deal with this one. This does not mean all of these are legit, I'm convinced some are concocted and some are hallucinations.

Yes, William, this is my OPINION.

Terri also said: "Well Anonymous it's nice to see some sanity though its a shame you chose not to be a real person."

ANSWER: Now why be unkind when I have not done anything illegal or immoral? Be nice! There may be more of a reason for it than you are aware of...

For your edification anonymous.

Dr Hora’s Parameters of Progress
Eleven principles

1. Thou shalt have no other interests before the good of God, which is spiritual.
2. Take no thought for what should be or what should not be; seek ye first to know the good of God, which already is.
3. There is no interaction anywhere; there is only omni-action everywhere.
4. Yes is good, but no is also good.
5. God helps those who let him.
6. If you know what, you know how.
7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.
8. Problems are lessons designed for our edification.
9. Reality cannot be experienced or imagined; it can, however be realized.
10. The understanding of what really is; abolishes all that seems to be.
11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them.


I violated number 11 but then I am known to do that from time to time. :-) Intellectualism I suspect.

William said: "And what makes anonymous sane to you? Why of course he agrees with your beliefs. That is how the mind (i.e. ego) works it loves to read those facts from others that agrees with its facts. It gives us self-confirmation (self confirmatory ideation) and is based in doubt not certainty."

ANSWER: William, do you find that you frequently "go deeper" with those of other beliefs than your own and consider the possibility that theirs may have validity? Or do you find that you "agree" with your own kind? If so, why is this? How much, for example, since you brought it up, do you "go deeper" (for yourself) with Christians? Or do you just consider yourself wiser than others?

William said: 11. Do not show your pearls to unreceptive minds, for they will demean them. I violated number 11 but then I am known to do that from time to time. :-) Intellectualism I suspect.

ANSWER: Do you mean that you are more learned than I William? My mind is unreceptive and you are just enlightened? If it implies this, do you frequently judge others? If so, upon what do you base your decision as to whether or not your judgement/assessment is correct? YOUR own "intellect"? Do you think your "intellect" might be more appropriately termed your "ego"? Do you seek to "enlighten" those who don't think as you do, to benefit THEM?

That you seem oblivious to your own ego and and judgemental tendencies amazes me.

FURTHER:

Jesus was very very ok incredibly intelligent that is why if he came back and gave his identical sermons within days after 9/11 that he gave 2000 years ago I believe he would be arrested as a traitor and may even be jailed without a trial and maybe even tortured. I.e. he would be rejected and accused of heresy by the very people that claim to follow him.

ANSWER: And exactly how is it that you KNOW this William? What if you're incorrect? How do you know you aren't incorrect?

William said: But if you are upset with me that may be a good thing.

ANSWER: Glad to hear this statement from you. Are my questions to you causing you to be even slightly anxious? If so, you will agree that it is a good thing.


One last thing, perhaps you will want to remember this principle as you post comments William:

7. Nothing comes into experience uninvited.

And I noticed that you sidestepped this comment William:

ANSWER: William, would DR. HORA have some sleepless nights because Christians and atheists challenge just about everything HE holds near and dear to his heart? Why should the others have sleepless nights but not he?

I'm thinking the same might be true about Jesus.

I don't know about Jesus, but St. Paul appears to have had an NDE or at least an OBE. He is usually assumed to be speaking of himself when he writes:

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4; Today's New International Version)

Although this account is often taken to refer to the "road to Damascus" experience, there is no certainty of this. It may have been a different experience altogether. Paul had many opportunities to have an NDE; by his own account he faced severe punishment and imminent death many times. And if he was apt to pray deeply and to achieve a state of religious transport, he may have been prone to OBEs as well.

Gee Michael. Reading your blog is like watching a replay of my thinking of 25 years ago, including the same reading material. Not that my thinking has changed.

I’d like to relate a personal hypnogogic experience. As a preface, I am not a Buddhist and my knowledge of Buddhism is limited to reading a couple of books and what a few people have told me.

Once I partially woke up in the middle of the night. I assume I was in what is called the hypnogogic state. There was a feeling of being very far removed from my normal self. It was not an OBE, but a different state of consciousness. A famous Zen story that I had read about a long time prior was recalled. In the story, a spiritual seeker makes great efforts to force a great sage (Bodhidharma, the First Patriarch) to pay attention to him and allow him to become a disciple. The sage finally relents and asks him, well what do you want? The seeker (Huiko, later to become the Second Patriarch) begs the master, please pacify my mind. The master says, bring me your mind and show it to me. Huiko says, well, when I look for my mind, I can't find it. The master replies, There! I have pacified your mind! Huiko then experiences a satori of the instantaneous Zen type.

When this was recalled, I experienced a kind of objective view of the thinking process. It was as if when you are reading, you stop paying attention to the meaning, and only see the printed letters. The thoughts were not "my" thoughts, they were just an irritating feeling that could be ignored. There was a kind of realization that all my feelings of anxiety in the waking world are due to my thoughts, and that as long as I could see my thoughts objectively and how they weave this spell of anxiety, I could have the "pacified" state of being. What is remarkable is that I was somehow having the Zen story illustrated by direct experience.

Since then, I often have the experience, usually in the morning, between sleeping and waking, of being in that "far-away" condition where my anxiety-ridden waking self has not yet taken over, and I can watch it take over as I awaken usually over a period of a few seconds to a minute or so. The contrast between the states is very amazing to experience, because the half-awake state is very blissful on those occasions. It is seen that the waking state, with its anticipatory anxieties, is just a state and not my true, deeper self. I try to absorb this lesson of “Let not your hearts be troubled” into my waking state but it is difficult.

Paul had many opportunities to have an NDE; by his own account he faced severe punishment and imminent death many times. And if he was apt to pray deeply and to achieve a state of religious transport, he may have been prone to OBEs as well. - Michael Prescott
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Didn't American Indians used to go on Vision Quests? They'd go running somewhere in the wilds or to the top of a mountain, not eat or drink anything, and sit there till they had visions? That's another way of having visions. I guess anything that interferes with the usual way our brains work might initiate visions. Peyote, marijuana, ergot of rye, certain cactus, licking a toad, etc. might be enough to short circuit the part of the brain that keeps us from having visions or hallucinations (or whatever the heck they are? I don't know.) Is it real? I don't know that either although I sometimes suspicion it is. Maybe just a different kind of reality.

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