Art, this one's for you!
The physicist David Bohm suggested that the physical universe is something like a giant hologram in motion (he called it the "holomovement"). The idea, as I understand it, is that physical, four-dimensional reality is projected out of a deeper plane of existence in the same kind of way that a three-dimensional hologram is projected out of a holographic plate.
A holographic plate consists of intersecting wave patterns. Bohm felt that the foundational level of reality also consisted of wave patterns. One interesting feature of a holographic plate is that you can zoom in on any part of it and find, embedded in that part, sufficient information to reconstruct the whole. Similarly, Bohm felt that every part of physical reality was intimately connected with the whole, that the parts contained the whole, and that ultimately the separateness of things was illusory.
His interpretation has not been accepted by a majority of physicists, but it remains influential. It has certain obvious parallels with mystical traditions. From reading Norman Friedman's Bridging Science and Spirit: Common Elements in David Bohm's Physics, the Perennial Philosophy and Seth, I knew that there were also parallels between Bohm's views and the material channeled by the late Jane Roberts and attributed to an extradimensional being named Seth.
Now I'm reading Roberts' The Seth Material, and I can see why Friedman would have noted these parallels. There is a great deal in the Seth communications that dovetails nicely with Bohm's view.
Here are a few representative quotes from the book. First, Roberts describes a mystical experience:
It was as if the physical world were really tissue-paper thin, hiding infinite dimensions of reality, and I was suddenly flung through the tissue paper with a huge ripping sound.... I went plummeting through a leaf, to find a whole universe open up; and then out again, drawn into new perspectives....
During that experience I knew that we formed physical matter, not the other way around; that our senses showed us only one three-dimensional reality out of an infinite number that we couldn't ordinarily perceive; that we can trust our senses only so far and only so long as we did not ask questions that were beyond their limited scope of knowledge....
Despite all my previous ideas and common sense, I knew that time wasn't a series of moments one before the other, each one like a clothespin stuck on a line, but that all experience existed in some kind of eternal now....
We are individualized portions of energy, materialized within physical existence, to learn to form ideas from energy, and make them physical (this is idea construction). We project ideas into an object, so that we can deal with it. But the object is the thought, materialized. This physical representation of idea permits us to learn the difference between the "I" who thinks and the thought. Idea construction teaches the "I" what it is, by showing it its own products in a physical manner. We learn by viewing our own creations, in other words. We learn the power and the effects of ideas by changing them into physical reality; and we learn responsibility in the use of creative energy...
The eye projects and focuses the inner image (idea) onto the physical world in the same manner that a motion-picture camera transfers an image onto a screen. The mouth creates words. The ears create sound. The difficulty in understanding this principle is due to the fact that we've taken it for granted that the image and sound already exist for the senses to interpret. Actually the senses are channels of creation by which the idea is projected into material expression.
The basic idea is that the senses are developed, not to permit awareness of an already existing material world, but to create it. (pp. 10-12)
Seth talks about physical reality:
We construct images consistent with the senses we happen to have. We merely construct imaginary lines to walk on.
So real are the wall constructions of your room that you would freeze in winter without them, yet there is no room and there are no walls. (p. 39)
In an ESP experiment, Seth correctly identified many attributes of a torn piece of The New York Times in an opaque envelope. He also gave attributes of the rest of the page, which had not been included with the clipping. When asked how he could do this, he explained:
A portion is always connected to the whole of which it is part. From the torn section, then, to me the whole [page] was present, and from portions of the whole, the whole can be read. With enough freedom on the one hand, and training on the other, [Jane Roberts], speaking for me, could give you the entire copy of The New York Times from a torn corner. (p. 83)
Giving advice to an artist, Seth hits on the same theme:
In a portrait, do the same exercises given earlier: imagine the individual as the center of all life, so that when the painting is completed, it automatically suggests the whole universe of which the individual is part. Nothing exists in isolation, and this is the secret that the old masters knew so well.
In the smallest detail they managed to suggest the reality of the spiritual universe of which that detail was a part and through which the energy of the universe spoke. (p. 93)
In another incident, Seth described a woman who had a brief encounter with someone present at the sitting.
[Seth said,] "The woman is grasping in a way that is disastrous to those with whom she comes in contact." He added that the woman "would have used you as a buffer between herself and another man, and as a bargaining point, exaggerating your slightest interest...." Then he gave considerable background information, saying that the woman had a child and was involved with another man. "The male involved with her has something to do with mechanics." He also said that she was a Catholic, and that her problem concerned a legal paper.
After this, Seth proceeded to tell Phil where she lived, though he didn't give a specific address. "She lives in... the third or fourth house in the middle of a dead-end street, in the northeastern section of town, but west of the establishment in which you met her." (p. 105)
This information was checked out and proved accurate. What's interesting in this context is that, just as with the torn newspaper page, Seth's description went beyond the encounter itself to encompass other aspects of the woman's existence. It was as if, given the woman as a starting point, he could proceed to describe more and more extraneous details in ever-widening ripples. To repeat the earlier quote, it seems as if he "could give you the entire copy of The New York Times from a torn corner."
I'm not sure what to make of the Seth communications. Parts of the material make sense to me, but other parts don't. Is it legitimate channeled information or just a mass of half-digested material thrown up by Jane Roberts' subconscious? Roberts herself struggled with this question.
But it is interesting to see the insistence on the essential unity of all things in our physical world, as presented in mystical traditions, in one strain of quantum physics, and in Jane Roberts' messages.
P.S. For those who don't know, the title of this post refers to a commenter named Art, who is very interested in the holographic universe hypothesis, especially as presented by Michael Talbot. One of Art's points is that we exist in physical reality in order to learn about separation, an idea that fits in very closely with the quotes from pp. 10-12 excerpted above (in particular the paragraph beginning, "We are individualized portions of energy ...").
Thanks Michael. I appreciate the recognition. You should hear me trying to explain the holographic universe theory to the preacher from our church. I told him it's the only way one can truly understand the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), you know "God in three persons, blessed trinity." Not to mention many other New Testament sayings, such as "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you," or "Whatever you sow that also shall ye reap," or "God is Light" or "God is Love," or when Jesus prays in the garden (in the book of John) "that they all may be one as we are one, I in you and you in me." I could go on and on. The Holographic Universe is the basis of just about every paranormal or spiritual thing I've studied for the past seven years, which is how long I've been really concentrating on this life after death stuff. By the way, if you haven't read "Riding the Dragon" an online essay by a medical doctor I'd highly recommend it. It's really fascinating and yes, it parallels or corroborates the holographic nature of the Universe.
Riding the Dragon: http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00070&ss=1
Posted by: Arthur | October 16, 2007 at 09:32 PM
I'm not sure what to make of the Seth communications. Parts of the material make sense to me, but other parts don't. Is it legitimate channeled information or just a mass of half-digested material thrown up by Jane Roberts' subconscious? Roberts herself struggled with this question. - Michael Prescott
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In a holographic universe it doesn't make any difference. Our separateness is an illusion. Everything is infinitely connected to everything else. Each piece contains the whole. Jane Roberts is Seth. Think about it this way. Many near death experiencers comment on how they have "all knowledge" after they cross over. Whatever they focus their attention on, that's what they experience. It all has to do with consciousness and information. Those feelings of "all knowledge" are just another manifestation of the holographic nature of the Spiritual Universe, and sometimes we are allowed to catch glimpses of the way the Universe really is. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience, and after we die we see or experience the Universe for what it truly is, a gigantic splendid holomovement. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 16, 2007 at 10:04 PM
Art why do we have to learn separation? The entities after leaving this earth plane that come through mediums still communicate as separate entities. They may exist on a different and often more pleasant dimension but they still come through as their same sweet or not so sweet selves.
From my point of view the earth experience is harsh and this harshness opens up opportunities for us to be more compassionate towards others. Compassion starts this process of feeling one with all beings. The earth is just one of many schoolhouses where we begin to overcome our ignorance of thinking we are separate from this oneness most call God.
This evolution of consciousness gives us a perception of a separate self and that perception of a separate self is intact for much of the souls evolutionary journey. As we become more aware of reality we begin to lose (slowly through realizations) that perception of a unique separate self.
Please explain in more detail what you mean by we come to earth to learn separation as I may be misunderstanding your words.
Here is Einstein’s theory of everything courtesy of William. (Infinity = one) I think this formula fits well with the holographic universe.
Posted by: william | October 16, 2007 at 10:54 PM
It's interesting that different people say different things about the purpose of incarnating. The NDE'ers tend to say it's to learn love.
One of the explanations I think is also interesting is that incarnation is for the purpose if individuation. We become different from each other by having different life experiences. This is told in Susy Smith's "The Book of James"
Holograms do not have all the information in the entire hologram in every point of the hologram. One small piece of a hologram contains information about the entire image as seen from only one angle. That's why you see the hologramed object from a different angle when you move with respect to it. It's why it appears three dimentional - each eye sees it from a different angle. Therefore different parts contain different information. If the image has some parts that are not visible from certain angles there is no information on those parts in bit of the hologram that represents that viewing angle.
If all the information about the universe was stored at each point in the universe you would have all the information in the universe in every point stored in every point in every point etc. Each point would have an infinate amount of information.
What seth did with the newspaper sounds like psychometry. Human psychics are also able to gain information from objects that is not conventionally available from the physical object alone.
If all the information in the universe is stored in a corner of the New York Times how does Seth distinguish it the rest of the page from last week's edition, the Daily News sports section, the latest novel on the best seller list, or the Alpha Centuri Courrier, or the pimple on my $#^&*?
This whole thing about time really befuddles me. If there is no such thing as time what is the point of doing anything. Why incarnate, it's already over. Why try to improve by incarnating, the results have already been achieved. How can we first incarnate and then be improved after it if all past and future exist in only the one instant? How can spirits do anything if there is no time. If they are doing everything at once how can they see the results of cause and effect to do dependent actions? If they can see those results of uncaused effects why bother to cause them?
Posted by: | October 16, 2007 at 11:22 PM
If there is no time in the spirit world and all past and present exist at the same single solitary instant then incarnating is exactly like watching reruns. No wonder we have to forget our spiritual nature - we'd know the ending and we'd be horrified of a death which condemned us to watch reruns for eternity.
How is it possible for NDE'ers to describe their experience as a sequence of events if everything happens at once?
How can reincarnation occur if there is only one instant in time? How can the lessons of one incarnation be accessible in the next if they are all happening at the same instant?
Posted by: | October 16, 2007 at 11:30 PM
I started reading one of the seth books but had to stop. It was too depressing. Seth referred to the personality of his most recent incarnation in a derogatory manner. Am I going through all this suffering and struggling in life just so some higher self who get's all the benefits from my misfortune can take cheap shots at me after I'm gone. If Seth is so advanced I'd expect him to be a little more sensitive.
Posted by: | October 16, 2007 at 11:35 PM
Interesting questions but why not a name at the end of your post?
Consciousness knows events and this gives us a perception of time.
Awareness knows only now therefore time is nonexistent.
I learned a long time ago that spirits have their beliefs just like we do and they teach those beliefs like they are truths just like we do.
Posted by: william | October 16, 2007 at 11:59 PM
Despite the fact that all the information in the universe is stored in every point in my brain it may be that I can't remember my name. Or, maybe it's because I can't distinguish my name from every other named individual and thing in all the universes in the eleven dimensions. Or, maybe it's because I'm befuddled by the sheer incomprehensibility of these paradoxes I have tried to point out. Maybe it's because I'm too lazy to type a few characters. Maybe it's because I've found an internet form which requires no personal information and I can't resist taking advantage of such a unique, rare, and wonderful opportunity. Maybe it is because I plan to contradict myself in my next comment. Maybe it's because I will get fired if my boss finds out I'm goofing off.
There has been some discussion of this issue in the comments to other posts too. I've been called a gutless critic by the best of them!
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2007/08/no-lights-camer.html#comment-80025479
By the way, I'm not disputing this stuff just complaining that it hurt's my brain and despite my irreverence I do not mean any disrespect to the poster or any of the other commenters.
Posted by: | October 17, 2007 at 12:38 AM
For what it is worth, when in communication as a medium with the discarnate, there have been a rare number of times when the discarnate make a brief appearance so that I actually see them before my eyes, not within my brain.
Every single time this has happened, spirit took shape as a holographic projection.
Every time.
Posted by: Marcel Cairo | October 17, 2007 at 01:08 AM
I agree with art that this life is about learning about love or learning that seperation is an illusion. Free will and the choice between love or fear.
The whole saga of this universe.
superficially one can say that we are all seperate but on a deeper level we are so intimately connected in unity.
Even on a superficial level we can see how we are all connected. The plants gives us the air, the sun gives the warmth for the plants, the clouds give rain, the farmer plants the food, the subway guy who used a wrench to fix the bench makes it possible to me to sit... and so on. We are so related to eachother in ways we can not even imagine. Ever tried before you go to sleep to just go over your whole day from the point you went to bed to the beginning of the day when you where in bed again. Backward through all your experiences, everything you experienced on that day?
Some people say how infinity could create finite things or seemingly seperate things. Infinity by its very nature has the potential to create an infinite amount of finite things which means that everything stays an unseperatable part of infinity or unity although the parts created by free will can have the free will to believe otherwise.
greets,
Filip
Posted by: Filip | October 17, 2007 at 01:42 AM
>Holograms do not have all the information in the entire hologram in every point of the hologram.
I believe they do, actually. I'm talking about the holographic plate, not the holographic projection. If you cut out a small piece of the plate and shine a focused beam through it, you will still project a 3D image in space. The only caveat is that the smaller the piece is, the fuzzier the image gets. But it's still 3D and it still represents the whole object.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 17, 2007 at 06:19 AM
maybe because all eternity exists at once, the illusion of time was created to, well, pass the time ;-)
Re: all the information in the universe existing in the NYT- There's a joke in there somewhere!
Posted by: Tony | October 17, 2007 at 07:20 AM
In his book "Zen Physics", astrophysicist David J. Darling speculated on the possibility that separate incarnations allow separate pieces of a single, unitary consciousness ("God"?) to experience events sequentially and, upon rejoining with that primary consciousness, share those experiences with the whole, thereby enhancing the existence of the One. Our individuality is illusional in a real sense, but our interconnectedness derives from the root source itself. It is easy to understand why love would be so valued in such a reality, as the profundity of the emotion can be so overwhelming at times, truly ineffable. An interesting speculation which has always been worthwhile to contemplate.
Our "gutless critic" seems hung up on some of the problems related to time, which is appropriate considering that, like consciousness, it also defies definition. I've long viewed the concept of time as relating to physicality, specifically motion. When the mind is not constrained by the brain in our bodies, as reported by NDErs, meditators, remote viewers, etc., there seems to be no such distinction as "time", that attention and intention are the mediators of focus for consciousness, and allow contemplation which may be said to vary in intensity or probity or other qualities (perhaps also ineffable and therefore beyond the capability of language), but not duration. When I'm focusing my attention on whatever painting I'm working on, or at the piano playing or composing, "time" doesn't seem to exist in any appreciable manner (though, in music, meter is still present, if only as one aspect in which to express musical thought). We, all of us contributing to this blog, can no doubt agree that these are difficult concepts to wrap our intellects around, but they are,for me, much more interesting and germane to the mystery of existence and worth my "time" (as long as I am welded to this physical frame) than anything television can offer me. However, the "gutless critic" holds well to his or her anonymity if, given the thread of the questions offered, she/he remembers the fate of Socrates for posing endless questions in pain-in-the-ass fashion. No cup of hemlock can be forced on an unknown person, no matter how thirsty for answers.
Posted by: | October 17, 2007 at 08:02 AM
>The only caveat is that the smaller the >piece is, the fuzzier the image gets. But >it's still 3D and it still represents the >whole object.
And it is an important caveat indeed for it implies that when we the 2D image piece is too small, there will be too much noise –and too little signal, to use an engineering concept-- so we will hardly be able to reconstruct the original 3D image. To me this helps understands some of the difficulties with mental mediumship and EVP.
Posted by: Ulysses | October 17, 2007 at 08:10 AM
Art why do we have to learn separation? The entities after leaving this earth plane that come through mediums still communicate as separate entities. - william
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This question is enough for a whole book to be written. I wish I was a better writer so I could answer it better.
First off "we" don't have to; the "soul" does. Secondly life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and they are holistically imprinted on the soul whether we want them to be or not. "Learned" is really not the right word. "Imprinted" comes closer to what actually happens. What it means to learn something holistically is that the lesson is so deeply embedded in whatever task you are learning that you don't even realize you are learning. For instance, like learning about math while baking a cake. The act of measuring teaches you very basic mathematical concepts while you go about the task of baking. Holistic learning is how children learn before they are institutionalized in schools. Children learn a plethora of knowledge before they ever start school, but it isn't done formally. As they are playing and going about their lives their mind is learning about time and space and color and sound and feeling (hot, cold, what is pleasant or not) etc.
Now on to the question of separation. Many near death experiencers some back and make comments on how they felt this overwhelming and infinite feelings of oneness and connectedness in "heaven." I believe these feelings arise because of the holographic nature of the "other side." I remember reading one near death experience of a young black boy that was raised in a ghetto in St. Louis, MO. He said during his NDE that he learned that there really wasn't such a thing as black or white and that all the "duality" or separation that we experience while we are alive is an illusion. I believe that the duality and separation we experience happens for a reason. Another near death experience of a woman I read said that we here in the physical universe can't begin to comprehend the feelings of oneness and connectedness in heaven. I think it may be impossible to "become" an individual in heaven. The only way the soul can become an individual is by first spending some time in the physical universe. From the moment we are born and that umbilical cord is cut till the moment we die and our loss becomes a lesson in separation to our loved ones who are left behind - life is a never ending lesson in separation. It imprints on the soul what it means to be separate, unique, individual, with that unique sense of self that we take so much for granted in this life. We come here to be "unassimilated." Not only that the physical things that the soul experience teach the soul what it means to be in, or inhabit, a 3D + 1T Universe. None of these things can be taken for granted. If you come from a place where nothing exists except that which is first thought of it behooves you to fill your mind with lots of images so that you'll be able to create your own reality after cross back over into the spiritual universe.
My hands are tired of typing. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 08:46 AM
Nice post and comments, Michael et. al.
I would only add that, according to the non-dual perspective, separation from the Whole is simply a deeply held belief, not a reality, and that the body-organism does not have to die in order for this to be seen:
There is no person and no one separate from what is. So there is no answer to the question "Why did separation happen?" It did not. Karma, processes, conditioning, levels, states, attainments — all this is provisional and false and depends on the presumed presence of the person to whom all of this pertains. It is all imagination. If there is no person, then the root is pulled on all of it. There is no need for time or process. You are what you are. That is all that is pointed out. In that, all is complete. There is nowhere to get to apart from what you already are. - John Wheeler
So yes, reality seen clearly is "holographic". And that seems to come through clearly in the near death experience. But it can also be seen even when the body and apparent individual organism are still alive.
Posted by: Matthew C. | October 17, 2007 at 09:58 AM
I do not think we are here to learn how to love or "become one with God." If that were so then this Earth life is poorly designed indeed. What this physical universe is superbly designed for is experiencing separation. Even going to the bathroom is a lesson in separation. Politics, religion, race, language, dialects, skin color, money, I.Q., education, gender, sexual orientation, height and weight, looks (pretty versus ugly), the shape of our faces, all the bumps and moles and oddities that make us unique individuals, crooked teeth, hair, down to our very fingerprints are perfectly designed for us to experience duality and separation. Without even thinking about it the soul is automatically imprinted with what it means and how it feels to be separate, unique, individual. That separate sense of self that we take so much for granted in this life may not be so easily maintained in a Universe where the feelings of oneness and connectedness are overwhelming. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 10:14 AM
I think we need more words to describe time.
If there is no time, only an "eternal now" how can one note come after another in music? They all have to come at the same instant. How can you hear the music?
Without time you cannot have change. Either nothing happens or everything happens at once for the tinest instant which remains static from the infinite past to the infinite future. You cannot have sequential thoughts or sequential anything if there is no time.
Marcel, I think it is very interesting that you say when you see spirits objectively that they are holograms. How do you recognize this? Is it something you just know, or is there something about their appearance? Do they have the fuzzy, shimmering, transparent look of ordinary holograms?
Cheers!
Posted by: A. G. Critic | October 17, 2007 at 10:18 AM
Separation is the theme to the lyrics to most songs, books, plays, and movies. When I asked my best friend (who happens to be gay)what he thought about "Brokeback Mountain" he said that it made him sad and that it was about "that thing I talk about all the time" - separation. Two men who love each other are not allowed to be together because of societies predjudices against homosexuals. From the moment we are born and that umbilical cord is cut life is a never ending lesson in separation. Over and over and over again. War, death, divorce, friends moving away, emotional and physical, we experience separation in a myriad of ways. And it's not just separation from people, but also things. Pick a grape off a cluster of grapes and separation is imprinted on the soul, pick a tomato off a vine and the soul experiences separation. Without even thinking about it the soul learns what it needs to learn in order to become a separate, unique, individual. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 10:19 AM
If there is no time, only an "eternal now" how can one note come after another in music? They all have to come at the same instant. How can you hear the music? A.G.
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Our lives are like a song. Like notes on a sheet of music the totality make us who we are. Each one of our lives is like a separate unique song. It's what makes us unique. Our memories are our own. How do we know we are the same person we were yesterday? By the continuity of our lives. From begining to end.
Now interesting enough many near death experiencers say that after they crossed over they could experience any period in the Earth's history just by thinking about it. Like a holographic DVD disc they could re-live any time in history just by focusing on it. Our lives may be like that. As the soul goes through the workbook that is our lives it learns the lessons it needs to learn in order to become a separate, unique, individual, soul. After we cross back over into the Spiritual Universe we may view our lives here on Earth very differently than we do now. Here is an excerpt from Michelle M's NDE that I think does a good job of explaining it.
"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here." http://nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 10:27 AM
"Rather, a small portion of a hologram's surface contains enough information to reconstruct the entire original scene, but only what can be seen from that small portion as viewed from that point's perspective."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram
Posted by: A. Gastropod | October 17, 2007 at 10:27 AM
In heaven you can play the song over and over again. Relive it just by thinking about it. Whatever we focus on is what we experience.
from Mark Horton's NDE:
"I was pure intellect, absorbing information and knowledge through "sensors" or means that I have no concept of. From this vantage point, I had to merely think of a place and time and I was there, experiencing everything about the place and time and people present." http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html
Mark Horton's NDE is a fascinating experience by the way and it's well worth reading the whole thing. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 10:30 AM
Good observation, Art. But I think its precisely because this world is so attuned to separateness that it is perfectly designed to learn about about love, compassion and connections. What would be the point of consciousness and human will if we were not to exercise those things in our learning of our connections? All the natural separateness our material world supplies is the perfect place to perfect our skills at compassion. I know I am enjoying it, I hope you are too.
Posted by: Benton | October 17, 2007 at 10:38 AM
All the natural separateness our material world supplies is the perfect place to perfect our skills at compassion. -Benton
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Some do some don't. I'm not at all sure about the "free will" thing. I lean heavily towards fate and predestination. I'm very suspicious of "free will." Duality and separation seem to be inherent and inescapable properties of the physical Universe and we experience them whether we want to or not. Precognitive dreams I've had, not to mention things I've read (Aberfan coal disaster in Wales), etc. make think that everything may be preordained. Free will may very well be an illusion. I think "God" (whoever or whatever He/She is) has created a Universe perfect to teach us what it is the soul needs to learn. I think everything happens for a reason and there are no coincidences. Near death experiences lead me to believe this is true. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 10:46 AM
"I knew that time wasn't a series of moments one before the other, each one like a clothespin stuck on a line, but that all experience existed in some kind of eternal now...."
What I'm trying to say is that this type of description seems to me to be unsatisfactory if taken literally because it seems leads to absurd consequences. I understand the spirits and nde'ers seem to speed up, slow down, repeat past events, see the future or possible futures. However they seem to have some subjective experience of these events occuring in linear sequence of time. Or else they (to my conprehension) could not undertake any purposeful activity or do things in any particular order, or do anything at all.
The problem may be my limited ability to conprehend these mysteries or it may be that the descriptions by experiencers are not thought through very carefully before they are made. I can't tell which it is, but from what other commenters say I think it must be the latter.
Posted by: A. Gastropod Connoisseur | October 17, 2007 at 10:54 AM
Michael, you've done it again. This post gives me so much to think about. You're also the third or fourth person to mention both Michael Talbot's and Jane Robert's writings within my sphere in the past couple of weeks. I will have to finally add them to my reading list.
The Seth quotes (the first set especially) reminded me of accounts I've read of NDEs, especially about us being responsible for our physical form. Interesting.
As far as the validity of her channeling, I think I posted once before that I tried doing it myself, and never felt as if I got past my own imagination. But I wonder sometimes if much of what we create isn't channeled. I've come up with things that I wonder where they came from, including fictional characters who seemed to suddenly waken in my mind as if they were real people breaking through into a form of reality. It all makes me wonder what reality is.
Arthur wrote:
"I do not think we are here to learn how to love or "become one with God." If that were so then this Earth life is poorly designed indeed. What this physical universe is superbly designed for is experiencing separation."
In my personal belief we're here to learn love, but of course I could be wrong, and you make a good point about separation. But could it be we're here to learn how to love while in a separated state?
"Even going to the bathroom is a lesson in separation."
Not according to almost every cat I've owned, who all seem to think that people should have company in there. One even used to stuff toys under the door -- presumably in case I got bored.
Posted by: Barbara | October 17, 2007 at 12:19 PM
Not according to almost every cat I've owned, who all seem to think that people should have company in there. One even used to stuff toys under the door -- presumably in case I got bored. - Barbara
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When that urine and fecal matter exits the body your soul is experiencing separation whether it wants to or not. Separation isn't just about people, it's about "things" too. Animals, plants, rocks, dirt, stars, cars, trains, automobiles, etc. The soul has to experience enough separation so that it can maintain it's own separateness after it crosses back over into the Spiritual Universe where the feelings of oneness and connectedness are infinite and overwhelming. I'm telling you, if you truly want to understand life after death, read Mark Horton's NDE.
excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE:
"I suddenly just relaxed completely and allowed "myself" to dissolve (?) open up (?) merge (?) into the "oneness" that surrounded me. The ex- plosion of emotion and (again words are almost useless) over- whelming "love" that I now felt made any previous feelings I had experienced even during this episode, however "long" it had/was/is going on, seem like nothing! I cannot possibly put into words that any human language has that feeling. I was ev- erything, I was nothing. I was everywhere, I was nowhere. I was everywhen, I wasn't. My intellect had expanded to contain every thing, time, place, and even being that was, is, or ever would be! I was unique yet I was the tiniest part of the whole." http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 12:31 PM
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram
Wiki's description is a little confusing to me. Here's a passage from another site:
"Holograms have other surprising traits as well. If you cut one in half, each half contains whole views of the entire holographic image. The same is true if you cut out a small piece -- even a tiny fragment will still contain the whole picture."
This corresponds with what I've read elsewhere. It's unclear to me at what point, if any, the picture stops being 3D. Obviously if you cut the hologram in half, the remaining image(s) will still be 3D. But if you cut out a tiny sliver of the holographic plate, is the image 3D? My guess is that it is, if you can get close enough to it. But from a more appropriate viewing distance the 3D quality may be lost once the slice gets too small. I'm only guessing, though.
In any case, a complete image, even if 2D and fuzzy, can be projected out of even very small snippets of the original hologram. In that sense, each part contains the whole. (And of course, it's only an analogy; any analogy will fail if pressed too far.)
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 17, 2007 at 12:50 PM
"even a tiny fragment will still contain the whole picture."
A hologram is different from a 3-d movie. A 3d movie is seen from one angle. You see the same information no matter what angle you view it from. With a hologram if you walk around it it is like walking around a real object you see differnt parts of it from different angles.
A piece of the hologram lets you see the entire scene but the number of angles you can see it from are reduced. Therefore there must be less information in a part of the hologram than the whole hologram.
Since some parts of the scene may only be visible from certain angles a portion of the hologram must contain less information than then the entire hologram.
I think this part of the wikipedia article explains things well:
"Rather, a small portion of a hologram's surface contains enough information to reconstruct the entire original scene, but only what can be seen from that small portion as viewed from that point's perspective.
...
To demonstrate this concept, you could cut out and look at a small section of a recorded hologram; from the same distance you see less than before, but you can still see the entire scene by shifting your viewpoint laterally or by going very near to the hologram, the same way you could look outside in any direction from a small window in your house. What you lose is the ability to see the objects from many directions, as you are forced to stay behind the small window."
Imagine a large 4 foot square window and then cover all but the upper right square inch to represent a hologram and a piece of the hologram. If I am standing a foot away from the large window and centered in front of it you can see my left and right sides. If you look through the small upper right square inch you cannot see both sides of me equally as well as you could from the large window.
When you close your left eye you can see the right side of you nose but not the left side. I think it's like that.
Posted by: A. G. C. | October 17, 2007 at 01:41 PM
> But if you cut out a tiny sliver of the holographic plate, is the image 3D?
Yes, in principle you can reconstruct the original 3D image from any 2D holographic piece, but from a practical point of view it may not be usable at all since it could contain too much noise if the sliver is too small making the 3D image impossible to recognize.
Posted by: Ulysses | October 17, 2007 at 01:41 PM
"(And of course, it's only an analogy; any analogy will fail if pressed too far.)"
The analogy of the hologram is used to explain connectedness and cosmic consciousness. But it is also used to explain the mechanism - an interference pattern of waves. It is one thing to say "information about the entire universe exists in every small part of it because the universe is acutally an interference pattern of waves." It is quite another to say "information about the entire universe exist in every small part of it but I can't think of how that could be."
In the first case someone (smarter than me) could think of experiments to test the hypothesis and possibly prove it. In the latter case we just sit around and enjoy a nice philosiphical discussion.
Posted by: agc | October 17, 2007 at 02:36 PM
In the latter case we just sit around and enjoy a nice philosiphical discussion. - agc
___________________________________________
It's more than philosophical. It's related to or bears on everything that I've learned about the physical and spiritual and paranormal, and most importantly it's got everything to do with "why we are here." It's an explanation as to "how" it's possible for us to have a soul, and lends "theory" to everything spiritual. The holographic universe even explains many passages in the New Testament that are incomprehensible without it. Before learning about the holographic universe "the Trinity" made no sense at all, but understanding the holographic universe is like being able to grasp a little bit of the nature of God. How He/She operates. You can't hurt someone else without hurting yourself. The "life review" is a holographic experience par excellance. You essentially become that other person. Quite literally "do unto others" becomes reality. However you treat others, your treating yourself. Whatever you sow, that also shall ye reap. Karma.
- Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 04:22 PM
>In the first case someone (smarter than me) could think of experiments to test the hypothesis and possibly prove it.
The EPR experiment, as tested by Alain Aspect, might count as proof, or at least strong evidence.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 17, 2007 at 04:31 PM
The problem with the Holographic Paradigm is that it's too Western. Holographs are dependent on a "carrier frequency" whereas paranormal powers are achieved through asymmetrical waveform.
Indeed laser light is created but only through natural resonance of complimentary opposites -- without a logarithmic or statistical construction.
So first there must be logical inference without any physical containment of infinity and what powers the laser light information is the kidney energy.
The West and Japan turned meditation into a conceptual practice which no longer harmonizes the body with the mind.
Read Master Nan, Huai-chin, the best-selling Taiwanese professor and paranormal expert.
Never heard of him? That's because he tears the West to pieces and is therefore avoided by the likes of the White Male Gurus who are afraid of their bodies (here I speak of Ken Wilber and the "what is enlightenment" crowd but include as well all the "paraphysics" researchers as well.
Too bad Michael Talbot kicked the bucket early but his fiction is a must read! The Delicate Dependency, the Bog and Night Things are his three books that reenact the suppression of paranormal reality in the West -- much more accurate than his attempt to merge science with parapsychology.
Posted by: drew hempel | October 17, 2007 at 05:30 PM
Dear Michael:
You might mention that Jane channelled quite a few Seth books; _The Seth Material_ was one of the very first.
I first encountered Seth via _Seth Speaks_, a subsequent book (that experience is recounted here).
Owing to that experience, I purchased and read as many Seth books as I could find at the time (this was in 1982; Jane died in 1984, although several books have been published posthumously).
Most of Seth's books include exercises for validating his concepts, but like many readers, I tended to skip these.
....Until I did an exercise found in _The "Unknown" Reality_ (two volumes).
The concepts of probable selves and realities found therein struck me at the time as being interesting and sci-fi like, but when I actually did the Preliminary Probable Self Exercise -- Exercise 2.) I experienced quite the alteration in consciousness. (The impact may have been greater owing to the fact that I was playing with sleep patterns as recommended by Seth, taking two naps during the day and sleeping only for five hours or so at night.)
The initial experience that led to my purchase and reading of _Seth Speaks_ described on the RealityTest site (for those unwilling to click on the link I was attempting to teach myself how to meditate) was like the opening of a door into a very different and intriguing place.
Within a few months I got ("created") a very demanding job and Jane, Seth, and the concepts and exercises went on a back burner for many years.
Then the Internet came along, and I found the first Internet collection of Seth enthusiasts (this was back in the pre-spam, dial-up modem days of yore, with 386s and what-not, and even DOS, for those techie antiquarians).
Joining up with them, many more doors opened. The collection of Seth freaks included, at first, two natural mediums (amateurs but very gifted, nevertheless); before long, however, various forms of mediumship and/or channelling spread -- it was as though this was contagious.
I was slow to learn this -- I'm ordinarily too cerebral to be any good at such activities, but eventually even I learned to do this in a clunky, primitive sort of way, accessing what you might call sub-personalities in my subconscious as well, on some occasions, my "greater self," entity, soul, or whatever you wish to call it. (If I can do this anyone can, although if they're anything like me it might take them years to get the hang of it.)
By then, however, much of the enthusiasm of our early on-line Seth community (then communities) had worn off and people moved on; being a slow learner sometimes means missing the bandwagon.
Even so, it was all a great adventure; I'm still pondering the significance of some of the stranger experiences, years later.
We were able to explore the nature of mediumship quite a bit, discovering that no two people do this in exactly the same way, as you might expect; also, every mind "colors" or "filters" information obtained in this fashion. (One way to observe this is to have two mediums or channellers access the same information simultaneously -- these activities have much in common with translation.)
Meanwhile, I'm reading Deborah Blum's _Ghost Hunters_ and quite enjoying it. I also read a review recently of a similar(?) book with the word "gilt" or "giltedged" in the title (I believe) but lost whatever webpage it was on and haven't been able to find it again. Does anyone know what the title is? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Bill I.
Magnolia, MA
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 17, 2007 at 05:51 PM
Oops!
I screwed up a link in my post! (The one that described the odd way I stumbled across _Seth Speaks_.) It should have been this!
My apologies.
Bill I.
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 17, 2007 at 07:18 PM
Drat! Just look for the Meditation internal link on the left of http://www.realitytest.com/resource.htm .
(Age and fatigue don't necessarily combine well with even simple HTML coding; hopefully dementia is not yet setting in.)
B.
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 17, 2007 at 07:23 PM
>I also read a review recently of a similar(?) book with the word "gilt" or "giltedged" in the title (I believe) but lost whatever webpage it was on and haven't been able to find it again. Does anyone know what the title is?
It's probably Steven Braude's The Gold Leaf Lady and Other Parapsychological Investigations.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 17, 2007 at 07:56 PM
Oops, that should be Stephen, not Steven.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 17, 2007 at 07:57 PM
Drew,
Can you post some links to Master Nan, Huai-chin, writings? I did a google search and found a lot of his teachings on Buddhism which I have read many of the original sutras of, but I don't know where to start with Master Nan to see how his teachings relate to the paranormal, tearing the west to pieces, or the holographic paradigm.
Art,
I see how spiritual phenomena can be explained by some theory of connectedness and how a hologram, because of it's properties, is a good "symbol" for that oneness and connectedness. If spiritual phenomena also point to a hologram like interference pattern of waves as the mechanism of oneness/connectedndess I would like to find out more about this. Any links to more info on that aspect of the paradigm would be appreciated.
Bill, You are not too cerebreal to connect with sprits. There is a method designed especially for cerebral people:
http://www.geocities.com/chs4o8pt/natural_mediumship.html
Everyone,
If all the spiritual phenomena that point to oneness and/or connectedness are explained by direct analogy to holography where a hologram is a photograph of an interference pattern made by light reflecting off something else, then how do we map real and conjectured things into this model?
What is being reflected to make the interference pattern?
What is it reflecting off of? Some other ultimate reality or the physical univese including earth and astral planes?
What is capturing the interference patten? Mind?, Ether?
Do people (souls, and or physical bodies, and or mind) exists in the ultimate reality, in the hologram, or outside the hologram?
Does this explain the conjecture that matter is created by consciousness or matter is an attribute of consciousness? How?
At one time the pacific islanders crossing vast expanses of the ocean in small boats could tell where islands were even if the islands were not visible from the boat by looking at the interference pattern in the ocean waves. This seems like a good model as to how the mind could have knowledge seemingly separate parts of the universe if there is some interference pattern of the universe (a hologram) and the mind is an observer of that hologram.
Posted by: agc | October 17, 2007 at 09:19 PM
Hey Arthur,
All this stuff is way over my head. But here's another famous namesake for you - Arthur Hailey of "Airport" and "Hotel" fame. More to come if Arthurial blockage doesn't set in.
Posted by: Ginny | October 17, 2007 at 09:21 PM
If spiritual phenomena also point to a hologram like interference pattern of waves as the mechanism of oneness/connectedndess I would like to find out more about this. Any links to more info on that aspect of the paradigm would be appreciated. - agc
____________________________________________
Read this 6 page online essay about the holographic universe written by (I believe) Michael Talbot. It's excellent.
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html#zine
Then read this essay about Emmanuel Swedenborg which relates directly to the holographic universe: http://www.soultravel.se/2004/040907-swedenborg/index.shtml
Then read "Riding the Dragon" by a medical doctor (forgot his name):
http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00070&ss=1
After you've thoroughly "groked" that read Mark Horton's NDE: http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html
And if you've gotten this far read Michael Talbot's masterpiece, his book "The Holographic Universe" which I've read twice and is one of my most favorite books in the world.
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 09:36 PM
Hey Arthur, All this stuff is way over my head. - ginny
____________________________________________
It's not that complicated. It's all about oneness, connectedness, infinite love, etc. Being everywhere in the Universe at once. Separation being an illusion. You don't have to be a quantum physicist and understand the fourier mathematics to understand the implications. Read my little online essay and see if it makes sense. It's got everything to do with "why we are here".
http://www.nderf.org/holographic_universe.htm
When a near death experiencer talks about having 360 degree vision they are commenting on the holographic universe. When they talk about oneness it's a property of the holographic universe. When they talk about their life review and feeling and experiencing what everyone in their life review experienced that's got something to do with it's holographic nature. I could go on and on. NDE's are holographic experiences par excellance. - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 17, 2007 at 09:42 PM
“Art why do we have to learn separation? The entities after leaving this earth plane that come through mediums still communicate as separate entities”. - William
Art still don’t think you answered my question. I think we are coming from two different beliefs concerning what life is like on the other side. I am more into astral planes or worlds or dimensions depending on our vibrational/consciousness level and I think you are into more of a heaven environment.
Near death experiences would leave one to think that it will be a heaven environment whereas my research into spiritualism and mediums suggests more of a layered dimensions environment. Hope your right and I am wrong on this one art but I must follow the data. Life between life hypnosis suggests more of a heaven environment but spirits that come through mediums suggests multi layered dimensions depending on our level of consciousness.
I think earth gives us more of a feeling of separation and therefore there are more opportunities to have "imprints" and these imprints change our vibrational level.
But I do not think we have to learn separation that is part of the evolutionary process from pure awareness to simple consciousness to self-consciousness (maximum belief in separate unique self) to hyperconsciousness to cosmic consciousness to pure awareness.
Posted by: william | October 17, 2007 at 11:12 PM
I wonder if it might be better to say that oneness/connectedness is accomplished simply by processing an interference pattern rather than by singling out the hologram as the explanation. A hologram is a very "orderly" interference pattern designed to reconstruct an image. Is the universe that orderly, that well designed?
The alternative as I pointed out is a more jumbled interference pattern like the waves on the ocean.
Other examples include our ability to hear sounds and separate different sounds from each other like in music or in picking a conversation our from the background noise. Soundwaves come to us all mixed together yet we are able to separate them based on direction and frequency and tonal qualities.
The interesting thing about this is that it something is known about mechanism by which we do it so we have something to consider when trying to develop hypotheses for spiritual phenomena. Separating different frequencies we know is done through different length resonators in the ear which each resonate at a different frequency. Location by sound has been studied extensively at the neurological level in owls.
Another interesting thing is that while I suspect there is some learning shortly after birth, for the most part it is done unconsciously.
Another model to consider would be various types of radio waves and tv and radio receivers.
There is also quite a bit known about the mathematics of processing inteference patterns which can be done by fourier transform. Search google on "fourier transform interference pattern" if you want to see more - I'm not really up on the math.
This idea of a universal interference pattern also has another very compelling part to it: Spirits are always talking about vibrations when trying to explain so many spiritual phenomena, from telepathy, to materialization, to the different levels in the spirit world. If oneness/connectedness is explained by an interference pattern it may be the same waves the spirits are talking about when they use the term vibrations. I think this is a very significant correspondence.
Posted by: agc | October 18, 2007 at 01:56 AM
1. Thanks, Michael, for the title to Braude's book.
2. Thanks, also, agc, for the webpage reference. (Note that I am able to access and convey, to a limited extent, certain "past" personalities of my own as well as my own greater entity; I do "get" snippets from other non-material beings, too, but on a sporadic basis. Example -- idly wondering, during the run-up to the Iraq invasion, what George Patton might have thought of the situation, I got, quite clearly: "Hell to pay!")
All of this is highly subjective, of course; what can get very interesting is when a group gets together to do this sort of thing -- sometimes, it is as though the "psychic energy" gets concentrated, "amped up" and all such communication becomes much easier.
I would like to find ways to "objectify" this kind of activity, but then many have tried and failed to do this for quite some time, while rare documented instances tend not to be believed by those with materialist beliefs, as Michael has pointed out.
The holographic/interference pattern concepts discussed in this thread are very stimulating; might they actually lead somewhere?
Regards
Bill I.
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 18, 2007 at 06:40 AM
Add more dimensions to the whatever-it-is that the interference patterns are expressed IN and it all starts to get REAL interesting. Given the very recent theoretical assent granted to Everett's Many Worlds Hypothesis (by a clearing of some of the mathematical and theoretical obstructions) and the entire picture of reality becomes a multiform miasma. If ALL possible outcomes are realized in ALL situations, what happens to the individual consciousness? A multitude of "individuals", some making GOOD choices, others BAD ones, still others disconnected from the physical by death (due to accident, injury, disease, etc.) strikes me as an incredibly unbelieveable mess. As you read the entirety of this thread, the distinct impression is that there is too much that we DON'T know with any reasonable certainty to anchor our speculations to and not have them float away on wave after wave of valid questions. We can select our initial assumptions and proceed, but we run the risk of mistaking those assumptions for verifiable "facts", placing an undue (and unwise) emotional connection to them and facing the consequence of having our entire assemblage sink under the sheer number of waves it encounters. "Faith" is roughly defined as "belief without proof". As much as the topic fascinates and the desire for answers impels us, patience and restraint can save us from needing too large a lifeboat, attempting to rely on too much faith to keep things afloat. But, with caution flags up, I still prefer to try those waters.
Posted by: Kevin | October 18, 2007 at 06:59 AM
Leave the no name commentator alone, what he says open up alot of doors to the consciousness to be explored..that is if the reader doesn,t feel threatened
Lucyjane
Posted by: lucyjane D | October 18, 2007 at 07:09 AM
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/optmod/holog.html#c4
This url has a picture of a piece of a hologram:
"Each piece of a hologram contains a particular perspective of the image, but it includes the entire object.
...
While the view through the small corner is from a particular point of view, it contains the whole object."
Notice the positions of the pawn and the king. The piece cut from the left of the hologram shows what the "whole" chess board looks like when viewed from the left.
Scroll up and read the whole web page it is a good overview of holography. The pictures of holograms make everything very easy to understand.
Posted by: | October 18, 2007 at 08:53 AM
Kevin: "If ALL possible outcomes are realized in ALL situations, what happens to the individual consciousness? A multitude of "individuals", some making GOOD choices, others BAD ones, still others disconnected from the physical by death (due to accident, injury, disease, etc.) strikes me as an incredibly unbelieveable mess."
Not necessarily; there is always the "you" you experience now. Other versions that have made other choices can be accessed (that's what Seth's exercise is about -- it can lead to very vivid (but still subjective, of course) results, but even so, the you who does the exercise doesn't vanish.
Missing, too, from the Many Worlds interpretation is the connecting consciousness of entity, essence, soul -- whatever you wish to call it -- that region of self usually beyond the physical conscious 'egoic' self, really quite fundamental to all questions regarding the nature of physical reality and identity, too.
"As you read the entirety of this thread, the distinct impression is that there is too much that we DON'T know with any reasonable certainty to anchor our speculations to and not have them float away on wave after wave of valid questions. We can select our initial assumptions and proceed, but we run the risk of mistaking those assumptions for verifiable "facts", placing an undue (and unwise) emotional connection to them and facing the consequence of having our entire assemblage sink under the sheer number of waves it encounters."
With undoubted exceptions here and there we -- Westerners in particular -- are as ignorant now as when William James, Frederick Myers, and others were conducting research, this before QM and its intriguing enigma of interpretation existed.
We live in a dark age, in other words, despite great hubris in some quarters.
Yet our "souls" are not at all ignorant and never have been; as they are non-material, residing in our subconscious/unconscious (to use modern parlance), however, no one has truly come up with a way of proving any of this to the scientific (and larger) community at large. Our science itself, then, must be considered primitive and I suggest it will remain so until or unless it expands to encompass what is often put under the umbrella of "consciousness."
In the meantime, we _can_ explore these areas _outside_ of "official" channels; many, in fact, are or have been already engaged in such pursuits.
Regards
Bill I.
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 18, 2007 at 09:31 AM
Regarding the EPR experiment... I think there is only a paradox if you don't believe in objective reality. This experiemnt is a better argument for objective reality than it is for connectedness.
In quantum mechanics they view things like atoms and cats as probability functions without definate state until you measure them. So this epr experiement is a problem for the theory of quantum mechanics. It identifies an internal problem with the theory not a mystery about reality. This was a way for Einstein to complain about quantum theory which he didn't like not a way to prove connectedness.
The wikipedia article says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox
'"EPR" stands for Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen, who introduced the thought experiment in a 1935 paper to argue that quantum mechanics is not a complete physical theory.'
The problem is that quantum theory says the two electrons must have different states but the states are not defined until you measure them. When you measure one of them that defines the state of the other electron instantaneously even if it is million and billions of miles away.
However if you believe in objective reality, then the electrons have their states defined before you measure them and measuring one allows you to deduce the the state of the other. These electrons are not entangled forever. If you bump one over and over with a magnetic field the other one does not have to respond to that field from millions and billions of miles away. The paradox is only about information about the initial state.
Even if you accept quantum mechanics, this experiemnt, as a demonstration of connectedness, is also over stated. It only demonstrates connectedness of the initial state of two electrons created under certain conditions. It does not demonstrate connectedness of two electrons for all time or connectedness of all electrons. It is suggestive, but I think the paradox is often described (unintentionally) in a misleading fashion and if understood correctly is much less forceful an argument about connectedness.
Posted by: | October 18, 2007 at 09:38 AM
For those who prefer somewhat mainstream science writing on the QM topic (there is so much junk available while the truly serious stuff is difficult for all but physicists to comprehend), I recommend:
1.) _The Quantum Enigma_ by Rosenblum and Kuttner (recent -- 2006; thin, too) -- the two teach physics at the U of CA, Santa Cruz, the book designed for non-physicists based on a course they teach; and
2.) Chapter 7. of John L. Casti's _Paradigms Lost (older -- 1989). Casti is both a mathematician and science "popularizer" but one who has gained respect, even with the so called skeptics.
Even Seth suggested QM will ultimately lead to a greater understanding of the nature of reality. I don't have an exact quote handy but somewhere he said something to the effect of "your physicists have their hands on the doorknob;" note that he said this many years ago, however, before the Many Worlds interpretation had gained some of today's new lustre; note, too, that this is very different in tone from certain recent popular movies and books on the topic that, to my mind, only serve to add confusion.
Regards
Bill I.
Posted by: Bill Ingle | October 18, 2007 at 10:19 AM
The bell test experiments seem to support for connectedness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments
but there are loopholes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loopholes_in_Bell_test_experiments
Posted by: | October 18, 2007 at 02:32 PM
There has been some discussion in the comments here about what the purpose of life is. By looking at what NDE'ers say about their experiences and what people in past life regressions tell us, we can find an answer to that question.
Since our life on earth is temporary it is clear that the purpose of life has something to do with the afterlife. The importance of what we do in this life is related to how the events of our life affect us in the afterlife.
We can come to a more detailed answer to the question if we consider how our actions in this life affect us in the afterlife. Many people who have NDE's report that after death, we have a review of our life. The review is from the perspective of the effects our actions have on other people. We re-experience life from the perspective the the people we affect. NDE'ers, who have a review, whether or not they were good or bad people in life, all say that they are pleased by reviewing the good actions they have done and displeased by reviewing the bad actions they have done. Good actions are actions that help others in some way or express love towards them. Bad actions are actions that hurt others in some way. Furthermore, before the start of the review some NDE'ers are asked the question, "What have you done with your life?".
From these facts I think one can construct an answer to the question: what is the purpose of life? Firstly, from the question, "What have you done with your life?" we can surmise that we have a responsibility for our actions. Secondly, from the fact that our life review is from the perspective of the people we affect, we can conclude that we are responsible for how our actions affect others. Thirdly, since both good and bad people all report that they are pleased by good actions and displeased by bad actions we can conclude that we are responsible for doing good towards other people and avoiding harm to other people. It is interesting that one of the sayings of Buddha is: "Do only good and do no harm".
There are other sources we can look to for information on the purpose of life.
Past life regression subjects quite often describe the reason for their incarnations are having to do with fulfilling a karmic responsibility that they incurred in a previous life. This can be helping another person to accomplish something that they may have hindered the other person from accomplishing in a previous life, or it can be experiencing for themselves some unpleasant situation they caused someone in a previous life. This helps them to learn not to do that any more since experiencing it for themselves will help them to understand why it is not a good idea to cause it to happen to someone else. In general these unfulfilled karmic debts spring from bad actions. So this source also seems to suggest that we incarnate to learn to do good and avoid harm.
Also NDE'ers sometimes come back and say simply that the purpose of life is to learn to love. It is interesting that this is in agreement with the two commandments Jesus taught: love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. NDEs seem to be organized and managed by the spirits in the afterlife so that the experiencer can come back to earth and tell the rest of us what they experienced. NDE'ers are often told they have an important mission to accomplish and must return to their earth life - it is reasonable to surmise that this mission is to tell others about their experience. For this reason I think we have to take what NDE'ers tell us about their experiences very seriously.
These statements of NDE'ers are actually in agreement with the notion that the purpose of life is, as Buddha taught, to do good and do no harm. It is a bit subtle but if you follow that advice you will learn to love. I'm not sure I can explain why this is true, but it has something to do with why we sometimes sentence minor criminals to community service and is something people who are involved with volunteer work know. When you help people, you begin to understand them better and understand their problems and difficulties. This leads you to identify with them more and more. Their problems become your problems until you find that, as Jesus instructed, you love others as you love yourself.
Posted by: | October 19, 2007 at 05:58 AM
The Seth books are my faves and I'm glad to see mention of Friedmann's book. To the "overself" each lifetime is like one day (or ultimately, they are all simultaneous)
My latest study has been the works of Gary Renard who helps demystify the ACIM books.
In essence it is a non-dual system, not unlike the Vedanta, though it uses terms from western religion. The transient universe in not "real" and our true reality is the eternal, unchanging, abstract "god" ---the illusory world of separation never really happened and when we realize that it will disappear.
The purpose of time is to learn a kind of quantum forgiveness which says that we are all innoncent since its all illusory.
The world we experience is a projection of our unconscious guilt for separating from "god" (even though that never really happened) The "between-life" state is still part of the illusion and you still have a kind of body.
Here's a good link with non-dual and Seth stuff:
http://www.nirvikalpa.com/
Hey, its Bill I. from the Seth communities--listen to him, he's the real
deal.
-paul_c: hung-out on sethnet & others
Posted by: paul_c | October 19, 2007 at 02:20 PM
Yeah for Master Nan, Huai-chin you should READ HIS 4 BOOKS! There listed at Amazon or on the website for him at SUNY. He has the Buddhist cannon memorized but more importantly he speaks from experience as a full-lotus meditation master and then relates that experience to the history of Buddhism.
Posted by: drew hempel | October 20, 2007 at 02:25 PM
The EPR paradox / bell test experiments are considered by some as proof of the existence of God. Since consciousness is needed for matter to come into existence, there must be an observer, God, for the universe to exist.
The importance for the bell test experiments, which were designed to resolve the EPR paradox, goes beyond entanglement. In order to demonstrate entanglement, the bell test experiments had to show that matter does not spring into existence from probability functions until it is observed. Those experiments are based on bell's theormem which explains that the measurements of the spin of two entangled particles will be different if the spin is determined before or at the time of measurement. The results of the experiments seem to give the results expected for particles that do not exist until they are measured.
Posted by: | October 20, 2007 at 11:31 PM
Michael,
Has the work of Amit Goswami been discussed on your blog? I think his work would be of interest to your readers. Here are excerpts from an interview with him:
http://www.wie.org/j11/goswami.asp?page=1
From page 3
From
http://www.whatthebleep.com/scientists/#Goswami
Posted by: | October 21, 2007 at 12:43 AM
>However if you believe in objective reality, then the electrons have their states defined before you measure them and measuring one allows you to deduce the the state of the other.
I may be all wrong about this, but my understanding of the paradox is somewhat different. Let's say there are two entangled electrons. When we measure the X axis of the first one, the X axis of the second one will be correlated 100% of the time. But if we measure the X axis of the first one and the Y axis of the second one, they will be correlated only 50% of the time. The converse is also true: If we maesure the Y axis of each, there is 100% correlation, but if we measure first Y and then X, there is 50% correlation. This seems to show that the act of measurement itself is what defines the electron's states - i.e., that the states are not predefined.
This is my layman's understanding of it, anyway. As I say, I could be way off-base.
Posted by: Michael Prescott | October 21, 2007 at 07:04 AM
Well I'm a little disappointed that "Art, this one's for you!" hasnt' gotten as many responses as "Geraldomania!". I mean come on, what's more mind boggling, Gary Schwartz, or the fact that the our Universe appears to be some kind of strange holographic projection from someplace else? - Art
Posted by: Arthur | October 21, 2007 at 01:50 PM
You have to read Master Nan, Huai-chin's books -- he has 4 of them and I had to read them 4 times each just to get the jist of what he says. Another good book is "taoist yoga: alchemy and immortality" trans. by Charles Luk.
I have three articles at http://mind-energy.net linked through the latest, the "yan xin secret"
Posted by: drew hempel | October 22, 2007 at 05:02 PM