Guest post: Eteponge

Frequent commenter Eteponge provided two very interesting responses to my post about Marcel Cairo's Tuesday radio show. As Marcel himself said,

Michael, if you're ever not in the mood to write a new post, I would suggest you might repost Eteponge's comments above. I would love to see what people have to say about traditional religion and the afterlife.

Good advice. And being incurably lazy, I'm taking it.

By the way, a good source of info on this subject is the online book Spiritualism in the Old Testament by G. Maurice Elliot, which can be found in its entirety here.

Below are Eteponge's two comments. I've added a few links.

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Comment No. 1

First off, what the Christian Guy in the program said stating that the spirits of the dead who communicate with us are demons "according to the Bible", that is totally incorrect.

In the Old Testament, Samuel came back from the dead as a ghost summoned by a medium, and the Scripture even states that it was actually *Samuel Himself* that came back as this ghost and therefore it wasn't a demon. He even prophesied Saul's destruction, and told him that the next day, he and his sons would be with him in the Afterlife. That right there OBJECTIVELY proves from The Bible that Spirits of the Dead can be contacted and are who they say they are.

Old Testament Law specifically spoke against contacting the actual spirits of the actual dead, stating right there in the Law that it is possible, it did not say that these Spirits are "demons" or any such hogwash like that. That's something that Christians like to make up and pull completely from nowhere. The incident with the Prophet Samuel objectively proves according to Scripture that it's possible. Old Testament Law such as that was ONLY IN EFFECT for the Jewish People, and ONLY IN THE LAND that God had brought them, Gentiles who converted to Judaism had to follow a SEPARATE set of Laws.

The Law specifically states that this practice is only banned in the land that God had brought them, to make them different from the other pagan nations that did such things.

Why was this Law put into effect? Quite simply, because The God of Israel wanted his people looking TO HIM for guidance, not the dead, who, if wicked in life (or earthbound and negative), could lead people astray. That's the true context. "Why contact the dead when you can directly commune with God as a Mystic? The dead are just the same as you, they've just shed their flesh!" Seems to be the true reasoning.

Regardless, if you accept that Jesus Christ fulfilled and erased the Old Law, then that restriction no longer exists at all. Which would jive with the "Testing the Spirits" gift being added in the New Testament.

One major thing also, is that Jesus Christ spoke with the deceased Spirit of Moses and also spoke with Elijah in Spirit Form while on the Mountain of Transfiguration and the Apostles witnessed it.

Of course, perhaps the biggest event is where Jesus Christ Himself said...

"Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:36-43)

This was after the Apostles exclaimed that they thought Jesus Christ was a Ghost returned from the dead, as in a Wandering Spirit. Jesus Christ Himself said, "a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have", admitting that Ghosts as in Spirits of the Dead that do not have flesh and bones that wander the earth do exist.

The other verses in the Old Testament attacking mediums and attacking mediumship rely on bad faulty translations. I've seen a large chart somewhere online that has the original Hebrew words and meanings in those verses, and they were very different in meaning and context than what Biased English Translations say, that such Biased Christians cherry pick from to attack stuff like this.

Also, his quote of "the dead know nothing", is a verse that is always taken out of context from Ecclesiastes, which was a book written by a Man in Torments looking at the world through a dreary tortured atheistic nihilistic perspective "All is meaningless, all is meaningless" Ecclesiastes says over and over, which encompasses the whole dreary context of the Scripture. The phrase "under the sun" is used many times showing how he sees the world through man's atheistic view apart from God's view. He is unknowing and uncaring and unconcerned about the state of the dead, for he states, "Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward..." That is probably the most out-of-context quoted Scripture in existence.

Someone on BeliefNet long ago posted the following information which I saved, and I quote...

At death, man becomes a rephaim, i.e., "ghost," "shade," or "disembodied spirit," according to Job 26:5; Ps.88:10; Prov.2:18; 9:18, 21:16; Isa.14:9; 26:14, 19. Instead of describing man as passing into nonexistence, the Old Testament states that man becomes a disembodied spirit. The usage of the word "rephaim" irrefutably establishes this truth. Langenscheidt's Hebrew-English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p.324) defines refaim as referring to the "departed spirits, shades." Brown Driver and Briggs (p.952) define rephaim as "shades, ghosts...name of dead in Sheol."

It is a Hebrew fact that "rephaim" (ghost) means a disembodied spirit.

Lastly, he was quoting a random verse from The Bible that suggests the world is round, talking about how it "proves" that The Bible is scientific.

What he doesn't seem to realize, is that the Hindu Scriptures state the exact same thing, as does The Quran, and both the Hindu Scriptures and The Quran contain many additional verses that their adherents constantly quote as "unknowable scientific knowledge" to prove they are authentic. The Hindu Scriptures mention that the universe is billions of years old, and mentions evolution, according to Hindus, and The Quran even mentions The Big Bang, according to Muslims. So, if this guy is saying The Bible contains "unknowable scientific knowledge" for it's time, he's gonna have to accept those in The Hindu Scriptures and The Quran as authentic too.

Regardless, it's also obvious that he was cherry picking the few times The Bible "got it right" in regards to scientific things, and is flat out ignoring the many times it got such stuff laughably wrong or obviously goofed.

By the way, just to throw this out there...

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this person - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that humans are not permitted to tell.

[Near Death Experience / Out Of Body Experience in The Bible]

---

Comment No. 2

Another thing I'd like to point out in regards to Jesus Christ speaking with the deceased Spirit of Moses and also speaking with Elijah in Spirit Form while on the Mountain of Transfiguration and the Apostles witnessing it...

According to The Bible, Jesus Christ was sinless. According to The Bible, He committed no sin during his lifetime. Therefore, His obvious communicating with the deceased Spirit of Moses and also with the Spirit Form of Elijah on the Mountain of Transfiguration, proves that communication with the dead is not a sin in the context of the New Testament. He even let the Apostles witness this, and they even suggested to Jesus that they build tents for them to dwell in to stay with them!

Saul's sin in the context of the deceased Prophet Samuel's being angry with him when he was summoned as a ghost and contacted via a medium, was not directly because he was contacting the dead, but because Saul himself was directly pacted with God and had full potential to contact and communicate with God directly and to rely solely on Him, but he had turned his back on God and towards sin, and the last straw was that he was turning to the deceased Samuel to tell him what he already knew, rather than turning to God Himself, and so the deceased Samuel prophesied his destruction, and told him that the next day, he and his children would be with him in the Afterlife.

Also, something I read somewhere online in referring to that incident that I found interesting (I forget the source, I merely saved it in my notes), and I quote...

"This medium, whom Saul used, also saw many people on the other side, when she was calling up Samuel. One should also note in this verse, that Samuel had maintained his form of an old man wearing a mantel, just like many documented ghost sightings of apparitions, report the ghost to be dressed in "period dress" from their own time era, here on earth."

Comments

[Darryn]

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/leslieprice/saul.htm

Much detail above on these matters.

I felt for poor Marcel listening that interview. I could hear him groan as the gentleman spoke of grabbing ectoplasm and then went on to quote the big bad book. I hope he is aware that consuming pork and shellfish are forbidden, as is going near menstruating women and a host of other things.

Seemed to me a sorry case of someone who ditched one dogmatic system for an even more repellant one. I mean, what are the forces of evil gaining by posing as dead people and then pushing messages of love and goodwill?

[Rich]

Sin, an interesting concept. If you believe the Bible (which I do not say is necessarily incorrect) just one has to wonder over the "authority of God" over you.

[Eteponge]

A good friend of mine, TeaDidikai, directed me to a FAQ she wrote dealing with a lot of the mistranslation issues from the Hebrew and Greek in regards to alledged attacks against Contacting The Dead and alleged attacks against "Witchcraft", etc, within The Bible, and I QUOTE from her FAQ...

[Begin Quotes]

Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1

The conflict within Christianity over Witchcraft is a bullshit political contrivance.

Lets address the translation errors. Some of these are so skewed as to completely change passages in their entirety, some merely alter the meanings of the words within the Tanakh.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto The Lord: and because of these abominations The Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 KJV)

"Divination" is from the Hebrew "qecem" which is also used in Prov 16:10, is only a bad thing when done with unclean spirits (as is noted by it's positive used in Proverbs). The word denotes seeking insights from spirits. It is used in both positive and negative lights within the context of scripture, making it clear that the action of seeking guidance from said spirit is only a boon or bane to the faith within the context of the purity of the spirit in question.

"Observer of Times" is summed up within the Hebrew 'anan, which means 'covering things'- either by using trickery to pass for prophecy or more likely speaking hidden things, or lies to hide the truth.

"An Enchanter" is summed up in the Hebrew nachash, which meant to hiss or whisper. An open condemnation of gossip to one's benefit.

"Witch" is a faulty translation of kashaph, which is to pray or offer prayers in worship. It needs context unless you are going to damn all of Christendom. The context is straightforward, it addresses those of YHVH's children who do so to gods other than YHVH. This is established in direct opposition to YHVH's commandments.

"Charmer" is mistranslated from the Hebrew chabar, which means to unite and in context is to unite through trickery.

Familiar Spirits come from the word 'owb or "wine skins", which is a direct condemnation prophecy from a bottle- aka, taking drunken ranting as divine edict. More over this ties to the prohibition of using grape products that are of a non-Jewish processing as the initial Kosher Laws within the Jewish faith cite the fact that wine was often consecrated to pagan gods at each step of the fermentation process.

"Wizard" is from the word "yidda`oniy", which means a false prophet.

Necromancer is a piss poor translation of darash, who is a seeker- once again within context of seeking unclean spirits for guidance.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18 KJV)

This one is pretty straight forward. "Witch" as cited above is kashaph, and only applies within the context of the Torah to those who entered into covenant with YHVH at the Mountain and betray YHVH.

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Samuel 15:23 KJV)

"Witchcraft" is translated from qecem once again for this part of the text.

"Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times . . . Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (Lev. 19:26, 31)

And now we're back to the Hebrew and nachash and 'anan have already been covered. As have 'owb and yidda`oniy as are already explained above.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)

At least within the Greek we have a new term. Pharmakeia- or herbalist or medicine maker. This is a three fold issue.

First, we have the use of plants to poison rather than heal. That goes directly against the Law of Love and the Commandments.

The added insult to injury is the benefit the poisoner would gain from his actions. We have established above with concepts such as nachash- in which deception is wrong holds a larger debt when done for one's personal benefit.

This is a very pragmatic approach that is seen even within our modern culture. Accidents are forgiven, direct harm and crimes of passion are punished, but premeditation to profit on another's suffering is damned even further.

It makes perfect sense that someone who would hide a death by poison for their benefit would be in unfavorable standing with YHVH.

"Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)

Let's ignore for a moment the fact that Revelation's is one big political satire aimed at Nero.

"Sorcerers" once again is translated from pharmakos as addressed above.

"Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Rev. 9:21)

"Sorceries" has the same root as above. Unrepentant poisoners aren't likely to have YHVH's mercy if they are one of his children. The key being unrepentant.

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev. 18:23)

Aside from the fact the Greek is getting repetitive, you have to hand the use of imagery by John to condemn pharmakeia as the poisoners of nations. It's either a metaphor, or the common practice of poisoning wells and salting lands sending governments into chaos. Exd 23:22 addresses YHVH's stance on being an enemy to his Children.

However, within the context of metaphor, we revisit pharmakeia in a new light- that is to say, to poison with words. We have already established that False Prophets, or yidda`oniy. Even the New Testament condemns them in Mat 7:15, Mat 24:24 and Mar 13:22. This is why 1Jo 4:1 demands one test the spirits that give rise to prophecy.

I realize I am using bastardized approximated Hebrew (one of these days I will have Hebrew enabled on this computer), but it will do in a pinch.

Now, the Jewish Faith does not actively seek to convert others. The reason for this is that they understand that to enter covenant with their god is not a universal demand from their god.

Not everyone is called to serve YHVH. Most of the mass conversion comes out of Paul's edicts from Acts onward, not Yeshua's within the Gospels.

The OT establishes not only that YHVH has a covenant with his people- being the children of Adam and Eve, but that other gods exist. Note how the Ten Commandments does not assert that all other gods are false gods outside of eisegesis, but it names gods other than YHVH within the OT such as Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians found in 1Kings.

Now- we know that Original Sin is tied to Adam and Eve's line. As Adam and Eve are not the only point of Creation within the Scripture (note the lack of YHVH's presence in Gen 1:1), it stands to reason that there is no more evidence that they are the only humans (note in Genesis how Cain takes a wife from humans already established in the lands East of Eden).

The Bible is the communication of the decedents of Adam and Eve and YHVH's relationship with his creation. It stands to reason that his relationship which is turned into a Covenant at Mt. Sinai does not apply to those who are not of that line- especially considering the context of the revelation of YHVH to his children and the formation of the Jewish faith as a direct edict applying to them, not to the people that were the Children and descendents of other gods such as the People of Cain's wife- or Seth's wife.

These other peoples are consistently referred to in the OT. See: Jer 10:2 and Lev. 18:3.

YHVH clearly states he is not the god of these pagan peoples- but at no time does he say that these gods are not real. Pagan peoples have their own gods their own lineage and heritage. Thus only those in covenant with YHVH are bound by his laws. Furthermore- the scripture itself, when it context does not damn those who practice qecem within the guidelines of Clean spirits found within YHVH's domain.

[End Quotes]

All Credit for this goes to my friend, TeaDidikai.

[Norman Ober]

Thank you and Mr. Prescott for so much fascinating material I shall be reading and absorbing for months, I think.

I'm the other guy in Mr. Cairo's broadcast. I was delighted to see your documented repudiation of the "minister" of the ministry ESP (Exposing Satan's Power.)

I don't have or pretend to have mystical or psychic powers. I own up only to being the messenger for my late wife's revelations as set forth in "Anita's Heaven." What she has told me brought me from atheism to deism, leaving little room in my mind for the dogmas of the major religions, including my own.

I feel about all bibles that they are the works of men who borrowed liberally from one another and who, in concert with their cronies, created the myths that each set of them knew and spoke the word of God to the exclusion of the others.

History tells us, as best we can decipher its relics, that these groups were at war with one another and that fear of the God they all describe, enforced by death, was the best way to capture the minds, money and loyalty of their followers.

Clerical death sentences have abated (not in all religions, it's evident) but other effects of generations of fostered fear remain with us. So do the rival grab bags of mischief prevail as each flock is urged to convert, subdue or damage their rivals.

Sorry. I didn't mean to run on so. As you see, I'm short on biblical references. On my way from atheism to deism, I developed respect for the imaginations and sometime beauty of the good books, but none for their content.

Thanks again for your well educated and thoughtful remarks.

Norman Ober

[Rich]

Norman Ober, I think you are generally correct.

I think the Bible (and other Bibles) is not necessarily inocrrect but at the same time may have some "funny business" involved. Some of it may be historically/event-wise correct and some of it made up and/or trickery involved.

I happen to think that if there are any Gods they were (ARE) probably advanced civilizations and may have had some hand or more than some hand in our creation.

The talking bush, Mary being a virgin and becoming pregnant, Jesus walking on water, etc, etc....could have, if they happened at all, been pulled off using technology or sleight of hand....and none of the people back than would have known the difference....just would have recorded WHAT THEY SAW...not what was ACTUALLY happening. WORD TO THE WISE! WORD TO THE WISE!

And with this, among MANY other things, is where I draw my thoughts about THE WORLD as opposed to what we BELIEVE/believe to be happening with ALL things.

As humans, WE, can obviously be fooled. We seem to be set to believe despite our LARGER ENVIRONMENT saying the TOTAL opposite. WORD TO THE WISE!

What is miraculous is MOST PROBABLY not miraculous and may have other purposes other than what we take them to mean OR ARE JUST HOAXES. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT....for those who believe that any paranormal "PROOF"/happenings should be taken at face value.

The history OF MOST ALL PEOPLE and JUST THE WORLD ITSELF tells me different...A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY...despite what FEW --- FEW people, IN RELATION TO THE COUNTLESS PEOPLE AT PRESENT AND THOSE THAT HAVE COME AND GONE, have experienced as "paranormal" including medium stuff, ghosts, ufo, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, I know, I kow, there are some people who will swear on a Bible that what they experienced is exactly how it is and what they interpreted it to be. And there are others who will say what about those (one could say many) accounts that speak of "miraculous" things.

My suggestion is to be EXTREMELY CYNICAL about the world (to include any and all other possible worlds) and "your place" in it. WORD TO THE WISE!

Then again, we, as individuals, and as a species have no choice but to do what we have been doing and/or follow whatever "new" things THE WORLD INTRODUCES.

Notice I didn't say any of us introducing!
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[Leo]

Michael I was watching an atheist say that because evolution is about replicating molecules and that they come first that there can't be a immortal soul and no afterlife.

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Sorry for the long post, I guess I've waited too long and its built up!!

Cheryl

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