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Monroe did partake in several well organized experiments with Charles Tart and others.

I read a book several years ago describing one such experiment with Monroe. The experimenter's name, I recall, was Stuart Twemlow. Basically he was wired for brainwave monitoring. At the time of his "return" from the OBE state Twemlow was certain he saw a wavelike "heat distortion" effect flicker above Monroe's body. After the flicker Monroe awoke. This sighting was also confirmed by another observer.

This would seem to suggest that at least this OBE was more than a dream, lucid or otherwise. Who knows?


People report travelling to similar bizarre and often terrifying "worlds" when taking various hallucinagenic drugs.

I don't know what to make of it either.

This is really a very large topic, branching off in a great many directions. (I read Monroe's first book with great interest, back when "astral projection" was the term used for these experiences; I own two subsequent books he authored and note the many references to him, his work, and his institute found elsewhere.)

If commenting is still happening when I come up for air from present activities I hope to join in.

It's clear to me that the term "Out of Body Experience" encompasses a great variety of experiences -- not just one kind or type.

Having or creating such an experience is almost guaranteed to shake up someone's basic beliefs about the nature of reality.

These are frequently based strictly on physical perception; among other things, OOBEs demonstrate the existence of that which is beyond such perception.

Bill I.
http://www.realitytest.com

Almost 20 years ago I had a series of dreams, visions, OBE’s, or whatever and those experiences were beautiful, incredible, beyond belief and mere words to describe.
Years later I discovered that my first two dreams are called garden dreams and the last dream is called a visitation.

For anyone interested in these type of phenomena many (including mine) are on a website called beyondreligion.com. This is a very interesting website where a retired Christian minister had an “awaking” and now considers most religious teachings as spiritual grammar school.

A most interesting book on OBE’s by a former atheist is “adventures beyond the body” by William Buhlman. He now admits his arrogance as an atheist for judging the world by his physical senses alone. He teaches in this book his technique for leaving his body.

It is interesting to read what he teaches about the meaning of life in this book compared to what he believed as an atheist. A must read for ultra skeptics. (yea right)

http://www.geocities.com/chs4o8pt/natural_mediumship.html#natural_about

Scientists have found that theta brain waves are associated with reports of psychic experiences and that visualization exercises induce theta waves (See "Leaving The Body" by Scott Rogo). The types of psychic phenomena reported from various sources include remote viewing, out-of-body experiences, spirit communication, precognition, and possibly others. Scientists have also found that theta waves are produced during the hypnogogic state - the state between sleeping and waking. This is important because the hypnogogic state is recognizable by the person experiencing it. A person can use it to identify when a he is generating theta waves and thus in a psychically receptive state without the need for expensive EEG equipment...

What we believe to be reality is a construction the brain generates from neural input from the sense organs. When the mind percieves the astral plane it recieves information if a way that it is entirely unfamiliar with and tries to fit it into things it is familiar with from the physical world. This mapping between the physical world and the astral is not always possible so our perceptions of the astral plain seem eerie or wierd.

The astral plane is not a place. It is a frequency that the mind can tune into just like a radio station or a tv channel.

has some people take drugs to create these experiences but are they real ones or hallunications i say hallunications because people have been able to verify accurate things beyond their body which no drug can do also there lives dramactically change in nde's. I think robert monroe's experiments are more evidence for the survival hypothesis yes some of it probably is not valid but some others do seem to support it.

The whole world (physical, astral or otherwise) "ALLOWS" suffering/death to exist "HERE"...any bits of "good" (or really everything "good," "bad" or otherwise and I mean everything, including you) only being "here" for whatever reason(s), if any, NOT having to do with you, I or anyone/anything "here" or even perhaps "anywhere." No need for me to prove this! Right? Right!

The "funny thing" about all of this is how we all manage to keep trucking along...ignoring what is and has been right before our very eyes all along...no need to be detectives, read ancient stories, run experiments, perform mystical practices, etc, etc, etc. As long as you do not live only in a "box" (important: with others like you), it has all been right before your very eyes (our collective experience --- for one to suffer/die is too much...then again we are easy; long ago buttered up with continual buttering through ourselves or whatever...remember those bits of "good?"). Don't equate not getting the house you wanted with someone wasting away with some horrible disease. The two sufferings ARE intrinsically different. Incomparable! Right? Right! Don't try telling the world that though...you are part of it! Right? Right! No need to search, get a degree, read/practice much of anything really. Why do we keep going is the question? I don't have any good answer(s).

One of the smartest bits of wisdom that you will read in your whole life...astral, physical or otherwise is here and you just read it. This blog is one of the greats (also some good comments sometimes) and the person who does this blog seems cool also. As for me, well whatever. Exactly.

“Why do we keep going is the question? I don't have any good answer(s).”

Is it the necessity of souls to “keep going” if not in this physical body than on some other plane of existence?

I suspect it is a soul’s journey back to isness, oneness, the absolute, pure awareness, cosmic consciousness, that most call god

Various people who have reported near-death experiences, as well as mediums, have talked about what's called "Hollow Heavens".

This is where masses of souls clump together in their own little world to worship a fake construct God which their own religion invented. It's a sort of hell, complete with Allah's 72 virgins who, unfortunately, never put out. What a nightmare.

I don't think that this afterlife which we're trying to figure out is quite so alien to us. The ignorance we see on Earth is surely mirrored there, too (in some places.)

But, Monroe's stuff really do sound like lucid-dreams. The only correlation I can fit between lucid-dreams and the other world is that it could be like looking at a place through a blurry web-camera on your computer after first filtering it through your own subconscious mind. What a mess.

That so-called "God" that Robert Monroe encountered in Locale II, someone ought to go OBE and kick his self-righteous ass and free those poor souls that are blindly bound to him. I'll be sure to do it whenever I learn to properly induce the OBE state myself. (I've had several, but they were unexpected and brief.)

I too have heard of "Hollow Heavens" and numerous frightening worlds and universes that people have seen and experienced while OBE, even while they were not looking for a frightening experience.

I do believe they are real realms, if "frightening" places and situations can exist here, why not elsewhere? Seriously?

Matthew,

Funny you should mention hallucinogens...when I read Bob Monroe's accounts they sound particularly like 'trips' under the influence of Salvia divinorum.

Kind regards,
Greg

This brings up an interesting point. William believes that we are on a journey to (re)connect with oneness or God but, as Cyrus and Eteponqe have said, many experiencers have reported the same kind of spiritual unknowing in the inhabitants of those "other realms" that we see here. So why do we assume that when we "pass on" we will suddenly be enlightened and understand all the mysteries of the universe? So it is important to develop your "spiritual side" now, not wait for a "reward" after you're gone.

I have never heard of the hollow heavens concept, but the interesting thing to me is the comparisons which are being made to the early stage of sleep. It is true that sleep is really a loosening of the physical body's grip on the soul, which begins to experience the ethereal beyond, sometimes still intermingled with the influence of the intellect/brain. The thoughts we generate make forms in the substance of the ethereal, and it is these forms, the beauty or ugliness of which we are ultimately somehow connected with, which we experience in a true dream state, and I would imagine also in a genuine OBE.

I’ve never read any of Monroe’s books, but I have read Robert Bruce’s “Astral Dynamics.” Even if you’re not interested in trying to experience an “OBE,” Bruce’s description in one chapter called “The Incredible Mind Split” (or something close to that) is a fascinating and well written personal description of the complexities of consciousness and how it is experienced “through” more than one of our “bodies” (according to Bruce and others)—physical (brain), etheric, astral, mental, etc. Bruce claims (and I have heard this claim elsewhere) that this all happens simultaneously, although we only consciously remember one—typically the one that the physical brain perceives. Whether you believe/agree with Bruce or not, if you are at all interested in this, I’d recommend reading at least the first few chapters of his book.

In support of those who have brought up the similarity between Monroe's accounts and drug-induced halluncinations, and in the interest of journalistic full disclosure, there's something I believe Mr. Prescott neglected to relate. I'm fairly certain it was omitted in later editions, but in the original edition of Monroe's book, there's a chapter/appendix at the end where Monroe relates an experience of feeling dizzy and other symptoms when painting in a non-ventilated room. Monroe then begins a set of "experiments" that involve inhaling paint vapors, and possibly other substance vapors as well, although my memory is a little fuzzy on that point. I do recall feeling grossly cheated after having read the rest of the book, to come to the revelation that "Monroe's a paint huffer!". I believe he stated that these "experiments" had no influence on he out-of-body experiments, but common sense would beg to differ. Again, I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I recall that these "experiments" predated the "astral projection".

The imaginary realms of OBEs and lucid dreams are as real to the brain as the physical world. With training, you can have these experiences as easily as Monroe did. There are tutorials in the forums on the astralpulse.com.

While in bed, try balancing your arm at the elbow so that your hand is up in the air. It will stay there with little effort, but fall as you enter sleep. Do this repeatedly and you will begin to recognize the hypnagogic state.

>there's something I believe Mr. Prescott neglected to relate. I'm fairly certain it was omitted in later editions, but in the original edition of Monroe's book, there's a chapter/appendix at the end

I'm reading a revised edition, and I haven't gotten all the way through it in any event. But if the paint-huffing thing is accurate, it certainly casts further doubt on Monroe's reliability.

Another thing that bothered me about Monroe's book was his tendency to use scientific-sounding terminology while not (for the most part) approaching his subject in a very scientific way.

Mr. Prescott, I apologize for my use of the term "neglected" in my earlier post.

I found a copy of Monroe's book online(!) at http://www.scribd.com/doc/6797/Monroe-Robert-1-Journeys-Out-of-the-Body . Probably illegal, but I didn't post it. In that copy, there is a chapter entitled "18. Analysis of events" that begins on page 122. It seeks to examine the events leading up to his first OBE looking for any cause or trigger.

I found a reference to what I was recalling. I was wrong on some of the details but right on the main points. It begins on page 123, and I'll quote a little of it:

"The first consideration might be termed the anesthesia episode, which
took place some six months prior to the first symptom. The beginning
came when I noticed an unusual 'heady' effect from the fumes of a gallon
can of contact cement. I was installing a cubbyhole desk top in the wall
of a bedroom at home when I became aware of the sensation. The can
clearly stated on the lid that the cement should be used in well-
ventilated areas. I correctly assumed that this was a fire-hazard
warning from the manufacturers.
The sensation reminded me of the strange effect I had experienced in the
past just as I was 'going under' from anesthesia. Curious, I
experimented with the effect of the fumes a number of times in the
following month, with very significant results. Upon learning that the
fuming agents were toluol (a common commercial hydrocarbon detergent)
and acetone (once used as anesthetic), 1 made several experiments with
the subjective effects of light anesthesia, utilizing a less volatile
and relatively safe inhalant, Trilene. In retrospect, the results of
these experiments seem to parallel closely the reports of those who have
undertaken the LSD experience. Intensely vital and not at all
unpleasant, the effects may well have triggered an inner desire or need
for experiences beyond those I had had to that date. Reluctantly, I
stopped the experiments, as there seemed inherent dangers of
physiological side effects if they were continued. Although I had set up
rigid controls, there was no certainty that they would always work. "

Monroe goes on to describe what he learned from researching anesthesia, the vapors at the Oracle of Delphi, etc. Later on in this chapter he describes his experiments with custom-made auto-hypnosis tapes to induce sleep-learning.

I'm not saying that any of this disqualifies Monroe's (real? imagined? mistaken? false?) experiences, but they certainly lend a level of doubt to their being literally true.

All that said, I find your analysis and theory to be very plausible and interesting, and probably quite close to the truth.

>I apologize for my use of the term "neglected" in my earlier post.

No problem.

Thanks for the link. I do find this information very intriguing. Some of Monroe's nighttime experiences have the paranoid qualities of drug-induced hallucinations.

markl> in your reference to my statements about a soul's journey to reconnect are you saying that I think we are somehow enlightened when we cross over? My research indicates the exact opposite. We appear to take our own sweet self and our beliefs with us to the other side.

It appears that if we believe we deserve to be in hell we create a hellish environment and if we have very strong religious beliefs it appears that we create that environment for ourselves. This could explain the hollow heaven concept.

After our physical death, there appears to be multidimensional planes of existence, rather than one big heaven with white clouds and harps, although some have stated that the music is far superior to the music on earth.

Hollow heaven story: St Peter was giving some new arrivals a tour of heaven and they saw people dancing, having fun, enjoying the magnificent scenery, and majestic music then they approached a very high wall and st Peter said “please be quiet as we walk pass this wall”. When a new arrival asked why: st Peter said that on the other side of this wall are Catholics and they believe they are the only ones that made it to heaven.

Note: pick whatever religion you want to behind the wall.

William: read again. I said the opposite; that we need to do our best to connect now, not wait for some kind of automatic "enlightenment" in the hereafter.

Thanks Mark for the clarification. I see a long journey ahead of us beyond enlightenment. Enlightenment is a necessary step towards this Absolute but I suspect a very small step.

But then do we really have a good operational definition of enlightenment or even a methodology to validate enlightenment.

The oddest part of Monroe's book for me was the part where he talks about little rubbery beings climbing on his back and trying to steal his soul - or some such malarkey.

I constantly use the CDs put out by the Monroe people. They've helped me access some very deep and wide states of consciousness. ( OBES and lucid dreams etc ) I haven't seen exactly the same sort of things that Monroe saw but the CDs have certainly enabled me to probe deeper into my own 'truth'. There's a book about the soundwaves called 'The Way of Hemi Sync'
or something like that. It's worth a look. Lots of medical uses as well as spiritual.

I read some of the OBE and NDE books, so I am convinced there is something to it. Some speak out of experience like Monroe and do a lot, others like you comment about everything in the theoretical grey zone of semantic correctness and a semi-scientific view mixed up with sceptics. Monroe is a pioneer and he tries to present his experiences, that´s just that. OBE´s are a reality for some, keep that in mind.

The trilogy by Tom Campbell My Big TOE (Theory of Everything) is a consequence of his work as a scientist with Monroe and the investigations of this state. Have a look at www.my-big-toe.com for really useful information and ground-breaking hypothosese

I wouldn't put any stock in any ideas or beliefs relating to finding our way back to oneness, isness, etc, etc. Also, as one or more comments have alluded to or mentioned, is the fact that not all "after life" experiences are good...perhaps being based upon our own deep, but not consciously apparent, belief of where we belong.

I, myself, strongly doubt that the world(s) are ultimately based upon anything regarding our purposes, beliefs, etc, etc, etc...highly likely "everything being for itself," whatever "IT" may be. HIGHLY LIKELY! If this doesn't scare you...I am not surprised...you are part of IT.

I suspect that everything that happens (including our thoughts, actions, beliefs, feelings, etc ,etc) in the world(s?) is NOT the result of "our will"...but the result of IT'S will. How can this be, you may be saying to yourself? Surely this is impossible!

I must admit there ARE MANY things you can say in defense of "free will" and that I cannot defend my position here "to a "T," so to speak." You may use the relatively recent experiments done with fruit flies "proving" free will. You knew about this experiment right? I just happened upon it. Or the fact that I am "choosing" to write this. Or various biblical texts (not to trounce on beliefs). Or whatever else you can come with.

Let's just say that I basically believe we are no better than seaweed in the sea of life...in the sea of "IT." Following not our currents but the current(s) of "IT." IT being the megaworld (material, spirtual or otherwise) or whatever THE WHOLE is...I mean REALLY IS. REALLY IS! We are following IT'S purpose, if it has any...I assume though it does have a "purpose" because we perceive purpose...we continue doing what we do (trucking onwards) like everything else...and we ARE ALL FUNDAMENTALLY "IT." I assume there is a purpose because "IT" is me. Did you get that? It is me, It is you AND It is EVERYTHING SEEN AND UNSEEN. Then again, there may be no purpose. Are you confused? Is "IT" confused? Now you really must be confused. If you understand these few sentences (or the central idea of all of this)...congratulations! Really! Congratulations!

Anyway, so do not not fall prey to the "fact of the afterlife" and how we are being educated, enlightened, souls making our way back to oneness, or just the fact that we may indeed "survive death" at all. Just because there is "goodness" in the world(s), DOES NOT MEAN that it is there for you, I or anyone/anything. This, my friend, can certainly be taken as a fact. I dare say IT IS A FACT!

Regardless of rationalizations about "the afterlife(s)," a lot of us don't care about the oneness, other worlds, etc, etc....we care about things here on Earth.."ourselves," loved ones ( including "our daughters," "our sons," etc, etc) friends, "our brand new car", house, etc, etc, etc). I used (use) a lot of quotation marks didn't I? Don't be confused!

YES, ULTIMATELY WE MAY ALL BE CONNECTED....regardless of what this ultimately means, the world REGULARLY seperates us from the things we love or generally does what it pleases...how it wants, when it wants...regardless of our INDIVIDUAL or even collective will. Again, some of us will "successfully" try to bring in the concepts of "free will," "effort," "work for what you want," and last but not least "responsibililty" here. Whatever. Exactly! Let me say that again because I "enjoy" it. Whatever. Exactly! We all do continue on in whatever fashion "we created"...right? "Right!"

CONCLUSION BASED UPON FACT(S) or if you ignore all of my "crazy" writing above and just read this part:

Regardless of whether we have "free will" or not --- I'll leave that open --- it doesn't take a genius to EASILY come to the conclusion (regardless of what may be in the "afterlife") that the "megaworld" purpose is NOT our purpose...not for our purpose(s) collectively and certainly not individually.

Order Out of Chaos it would appear. Hemisync was used by the CIA for remote-viewing spy research.

The Seventh Sense: The Secrets of Remote Viewing as Told by a "Psychic Spy" for the U.S. Military by Lyn Buchanan

It's also cited by Steven Greer as a means to contact the aliens -- CIA Dr. Andrija Puharich developed alien-spirit channeling for social engineering, through his channeling of the NINE (with Dr. James Hurtak, Julian Huxley, etc.)

The CIA knows that the ELF waves of the planet are also the waves that can induce visions in humans. The NINE refer to the Egyptian Ennead that is the basis for Freemasonry, relying on mass ritual sacrifice.

Dr. James Hurtak now works for Project Haarp, as per Dan Eden's research at http://viewzone.com Project Haarp is a global plan to induce mass visionary state, in conjunction with quantum chaos technology.

As a long time experiencer of "astral phenomena" or "OOBE", I found information in Monroe and others books.
As a child, I began to have these types of experiences. They were very frightening, as they were accompanied by loud noise as if large motors were running, and feeling myself "separating" from my body in the bed. I would terminate these experiences whenever I could, but many times they proceeded despite my efforts, and I was taken on "trips". Often these "trips" were pleasant, mostly short, keeping full waking conciousness, meaning that I was fully aware that my "other self" was in bed sleeping.
Robert Monroe, Hereward Carrington and Sylvan Muldoon were helpful in understanding what was happening to me, and "relaxing" into the phenomenon allowed me to have a number of enlightening events, such as mapping out the "Astral realm" as well as dispensing with the fear of death.
During my "trips" I visited several bizzare worlds, some similar to and completely different than what Monroe and others describe.
I have contacted "teachers" that describe the "wider circle" of "consiousness" that exists a bit beyond our everyday waking experience.
I fully endorse efforts to widen human perceptions. Perhaps we can approach some form of Earthly sensibleness if we realize that our lives here are a PART of the Overall Picture.

Thanks.

As a long time experiencer of "astral phenomena" or "OOBE", I found information in Monroe and others books.
As a child, I began to have these types of experiences. They were very frightening, as they were accompanied by loud noise as if large motors were running, and feeling myself "separating" from my body in the bed. I would terminate these experiences whenever I could, but many times they proceeded despite my efforts, and I was taken on "trips". Often these "trips" were pleasant, mostly short, keeping full waking conciousness, meaning that I was fully aware that my "other self" was in bed sleeping.
Robert Monroe, Hereward Carrington and Sylvan Muldoon were helpful in understanding what was happening to me, and "relaxing" into the phenomenon allowed me to have a number of enlightening events, such as mapping out the "Astral realm" as well as dispensing with the fear of death.
During my "trips" I visited several bizzare worlds, some similar to and completely different than what Monroe and others describe.
I have contacted "teachers" that describe the "wider circle" of "consiousness" that exists a bit beyond our everyday waking experience.
I fully endorse efforts to widen human perceptions. Perhaps we can approach some form of Earthly sensibleness if we realize that our lives here are a PART of the Overall Picture.

Thanks.
PS, I am reposting as my previous post is listed under someone else's name.

“This, my friend, can certainly be taken as a fact. I dare say IT IS A FACT!”

(Me) this above quote of yours is interesting to me. Although I tend to agree with you on many of your comments about free will, I have learned to be very suspicious of “it is a fact” statement.

I try my very best to go where the data leads me realizing that our minds are very, very deceptive. From my point of view until we come to realize how deceptive our minds can be, we will make statements like “it is a fact! In the history of humankind too many facts have been shown to be fallacy.

After 20 years of teaching transformational seminars on organizational change and observing how beliefs can overwhelm our rational minds I have become deeply interested in this paradigm effect that can lead to paradigm paralysis.

“Regardless of rationalizations about "the afterlife(s)," a lot of us don't care about the oneness, other worlds, etc, etc”

I suspect that for you (me) to take the time to read this blog and then make comments you care a lot more about the mysteries of life than you realize.

Maybe (Me) if the world learned more about the mysteries of life we might make different choices in this life and not buy into such beliefs as 72 virgins awaiting us if we kill others or teach young children that they may go to a place called hell and burn for eternity if they don’t agree with and live by our religious beliefs.

I doubt that we were created/manifested/exist or whatever to remain ignorant of the meaning and purpose of our existence.

In the mid-70's when I was a young teen I experienced a series of "out-of-body" experiences about which I was completely befuddled until reading Robert Monroe's "Journeys Out Of The Body" at which point I came to understand that "we are much more than our physical body" as Bob would say (and does still in his Hemi-Sync CDs and tapes). And I have to say that no amount of supposition as to what the physical cause/effect of such experiences is will do anyone much good who has not A)had such a belief shaking experiences and B)allowed themselves to accept and incorporate those experiences as "real" in their life. There is scarce chance with words to convey just how REAL such experiences as Monroe and others describe are. In fact, for as miniscule and brief a bit my OOBEs occupied in terms of "time" in my life, their impact has been greater than any other event of any length of time in my life, and while that reality does not compare to this one in any proveably conveyable way, they stand by virtue of the purity of truth within them as the MOST authentic, REAL experiences in my life. And I fully believe that most of us have had similar experiences. A few gained exceptional capability (and more and more are currently doing just that), but most would try to apply logic and look for "proof" of their experience and coming up against an experience that does not translate into that language of scientific proof will simply revert to whatever the simplest description of some physical process they can, denying their essential soul experience. Everyone has OOBEs at some point. Remember?

"Maybe (Me) if the world learned more about the mysteries of life we might make different choices in this life and not buy into such beliefs as 72 virgins awaiting us if we kill others or teach young children that they may go to a place called hell and burn for eternity if they don’t agree with and live by our religious beliefs."

Hey William, since humanity as a whole (for those who care or are able to care about this stuff anyway), has no choice but to search for answers then this is what we do. Of course this whole is made up of individuals. I am one of them.

"I doubt that we were created/manifested/exist or whatever to remain ignorant of the meaning and purpose of our existence."

The problem I have of this is that when one dies their existence seems to cease regardless of purpose(s).

Now I know there are plenty of people with experiences that seem to indicate that the mind (or soul or whatever) can leave the body. All I can say to that is then where are they? One must of course realize the countless souls that have gone from here throughout history...WHERE ARE THEY? Not one of them has come back and say here I am? Offer some ABSOLUTE PROOF. NOT ONE, NOT EVEN ONE! Please don't bring up those who can "contact the dead"....how silly anyone is to fall for that stuff. It is called "cold reading," for those who believe this stuff. LOOK IT UP! With a little charm, etc, some people ARE VERY GOOD AT THIS!

This leads me to believe that we have no individual existence beyond death. Furthermore, this leads me to believe that these people having OOBE's are more "tricks of the brain (world)" rather than leaving the body. LSD and other drugs (including some diseases) allow one to visit "other worlds" as well and hallucinate "very real" things in this world (including having converstations with animals, etc, etc, etc)...more "tricks of the brain (world)" than anything else.

Also, there is the matter of the primates and other animals...do they have individual souls? Does a monkey have a soul? Could one put any human's "soul" above a primate or other animal? Does a mouse have a soul? Does a tick or a fly? Do any of them continue to exist beyond here INDIVIDUALLY? AGAIN, WHERE ARE THEY??? Need I mention the beyond countless numbers of them that have "left this place?"

I will also say that despite brain wave activity being shown to cease upon death...I (being not the only one who thinks this) believe there may be still things going on in the brain allowing for these "out of body" experiences to take place. It is just that the technology we are using is not sufficient to detect anything going on.

So, therefore, I seriously doubt that our ignorance on anything is of concern to whatever this all is. It (the world) doesn't care whether a head gets chopped off or it stays on...why would it (the world) care about our ignorance? Yes, we are parts of the world and a lot of us can care...but our care has been meaningless throughout history...we still cannot prevent many of the tragedies that befall us being humanity and us as individuals. Hence, we can then conclude, BECAUSE WE (AS PARTS OF THE WORLD) WERE NOT DESIGNED TO DO SO and one can then rightly say that getting one's head chopped off INTRINSICALLY doesn't matter....because if it did matter IT WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN....throw a ball up in the air...IT DOES (at least almost all the time) COME DOWN RIGHT??...it isn't ALLOWED TO STAY UP THERE...yet somehow getting heads chopped off is ok...if ANYONE can figure out why this is so, PLEASE LET ME KNOW...I BET (KNOW!!!) YOUR ANSWER IS INSUFFICIENT...I will tell you what I believe below in the last paragraph. Maybe someday the world will ALLOW tragedies to go away...you or I won't be around I guess to see this so it won't matter anyway...and don't anyone or anything hold your breath.

My belief is (subject to change of course) is that we do not prevent or allow anything (decision making, etc is all an illusion)...we have no free will...we, AS PARTS OF THE WORLD, just go in the directions that IT IS ALL going....this including our thoughts, actions, feelings, etc, etc...again, control of all of these things being more of an illusion or feeling of control rather than anything. I bet I am right...although I wouldn't bet the house...but nonetheless I bet I am right. I'll call it just a belief though since how do I prove this belief (I only believe this because there seems to be no other viable explanation)...like how can one ABSOLUTELY PROVE OOBE's. SHOW ME THE ABSOLUTE PROOF!


Just a quick comment for the last poster frank-o. If you do some research on OOBE and Remote Viewing you will find a mountain of scientific data that clearly validates the ability of humans to "leave" their bodies and observe people, objects, etc... at a distance with the ability to record those experiences and validate them after the experiments are done. The debate about consciousness not being a local body/mind dynamic is very well documented.

Yes Pax there is a lot of data which suggests that consciousness may be "seperate" from the body including OOBE reports (although I suspect these to be more tricks of the brain than anything), "life after death" reports (verdict is still out on this one), and remote viewing (which seems to me to be suspect despite "the evidence," quite like mediumship...read elsewhere what I say about this).

This does NOT mean that we maintain an INDIVIDUAL existence "after death." There is mountains of evidence to suggest otherwise and furthermore this all leads me to believe "free will" is suspect. Someone might say well "you can't do everything here in this universe, what makes you think any individual can just get back to us."

My answer to you would then be the universe(s), material, spiritual or otherwise are sicker than sick. Playing a sick game of "well I told you not to seperate into individuals," or some other sicker than sick game. A HUGE SICKER THAN SICK CONSPIRACY SET UPON US! The alternative is we really do not have any free will, here, there or anywhere. Which do you think?

I've had one "OBE" when I was about 15 years old. It was in the ninth grade and I remember it well. What happened was I was walking home from school one day down Briarcliff Road in Atlanta, Georgia. Just past Shallowford road to the left was a valley overlooking a whole lot of houses. As I was walking home I was just sort of "zoning out" not thinking about anything in particular and as I was just sort of staring out over these houses all of a sudden I felt like I was "flying" or zooming out over the rooftops. It only lasted a fraction of a second and I was back in my body. It scared me a little and yet it felt good at the same time. It only happened that one time and has never happened to me again. I have had flying dreams while asleep but that was the only time in a fully waking conscious state having the feeling or experience of leaving my body and "flying". I'm 54 years old now by the way.

Hey Pax, I'm Frank-o. If you notice more closely I'm a believer and an experiencer, while the poster AFTER me believes he is just some automated meat walking around and nothing more. My question to NAMELESS would be - Why such a vehement attachment to not having a soul or afterlife? Are you trying to free yourself from the obligation of evolution and taking responsibility for the incarnation you are currently assuming? And IF there is a GOD, or perhaps let's just call it source, then we are all but parts of that consciousness, which is singular. It is all one consciousness. The illusion of separation is there to create polarity and thus catalyst for growth. Give up your search for ABSOLUTE proof. You can't PROVE to me what electricity is and how it comes to be. You can describe the events that led to it being there, and the effects observed of it, but you're basically acting on faith everytime you plug something in or turn it on. Perhaps without absolute proofs, you should cease believing in and using electricity. All the mysteries down here are such that they are provided for us to make our choices upon, but they purposefully remain mysterious that we may have the free will of choice to believe or not. Anyway, good luck on your very singular journey, see ya on the other side!

"All the mysteries down here are such that they are provided for us to make our choices upon, but they purposefully remain mysterious that we may have the free will of choice to believe or not."

-- There should be NO mystery to someone losing someone they love (care about) to some horrible thing. Where is the "choice" in this???

-- There should be NO mystery to someone losing themself to some horrible thing. Where is the "choice" in this???

-- There should be NO mystery to any animal following in the same path(s). Where is the "choice" in this???

-- There should be NO mystery TO ANYONE having to deal with the SICKER THAN SICK stuff the universe DEALS OUT. Where is the choice in this???

Now, yes, electricity may, like everything else, fundamentally be a mystery. Unlike "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" though, someone getting their body smashed by a car, getting ravaged by cancer, etc, etc, etc---- SHOULD NOT BE ANY MYSTERY!!

As a matter of fact, IT SHOULD NEVER, EVER, EVER HAPPEN (right from the very, VERY beginning) --- or anything remotely related. Right? Right!

The reason why HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE SICKER THAN SICK things like this have happened and continue to happen, SOLVES THE MYSTERY enough for me...WITHOUT BELIEVING IN ANYTHING. No need to believe. The proof has long been in the pudding.

You're right, nameless. Without the concept of the balancing of a soul's education and evolution beyond this plane of existence it is just plain horrible, and how unfair, etc, etc.

It is all catalyst for soul evolution, even the worst of it, just as is the best of it.

There should be no mystery? Okay, here you go, I'll demystify some more. Say a loved one contracts a cancer or disease and fades away. Understand that such is THEIR souls choice for learning and growth, and whether you feel it horrible or not is irrelevant to their soul purpose. Get it? And whatever becomes of you at life's end is part of your higher choices for education. And as co-creators you and the loved one created the catalyst of your experiences together for further growth.

It's all about evolution of what you are.

If everyone were able to choose for everything to be perfect and squeaky clean with no problems, ugliness, or catalyst of any sort we would CEASE TO EVOLVE. This is a static viewpoint entirely opposed to the whole nature of creation.

Do you believe in an entropic universe grinding slowly down to nothing, a random occurrence fated at its outset, cold, inhospitable, and essentially out to take your life (FEAR),
Or do you believe in an ever-expanding infinite universe full of abundance, life, spirit, sustenance, mystery and wonder, our very cradle (LOVE).

And blessedly, in freedom of choice, we get to believe what we want. I believe in LOVE as the fundamental element in this universe.
And TRUE or NOT, it FEELS right to me. I physically feel healthier with my beliefs. Now science is very clear: stress is very bad for your physical health.

Tell me, how do YOUR BELIEFS make YOU fell?

Truly, all Love, Blessings, and Abundance to you. It is one creation and as the Mayan people say, "In Lak'ech" which means 'I am another yourself.'

I've no desire to prove your experience to you and you are fully right to own it for yourself.

Be Well,

Frank-o

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